Cushion halo setting... now to find the cushion!

[ChunkyCushionLover]

I think maybe you're getting caught on the 'brilliant cut' thing - that refers to the basic facet structure which an OMB, an OEC, an antique OMC and a modern round brilliant ALL have in common.

CehrahBerah,

To Clarify my posts:

1) Before this thread I pointed out GOG August Vintage Cushions should be called Old Mine Cut Cushions(OMCCC) (my original thread) and I pointed to a correct plot of an OMC I think from one of the old PS threads see my last post https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/old-mine-brilliant-versus-cushion-brilliant-gotta-have-the-maltese-cross.118358/ in this thread. I will be happy to amend that to Old Mine Cushion(OMC)(from Diagem) as I can't say for sure that the newly cut stones are "Old" or "Mine Cut".

2) I started here in this thread by pointing out that it would be incorrect to label a Cushion Brilliant or Old Mine Cushion (the stones in this thread) as Old Mine Brilliants as they don't match the plots provided by GIA and do match the plots of an Old Mine Cushion. The term Old Mine Brilliant is very general and says very little about facet structure of a stone and is not a term used often by experienced trade members as it gives little information on the facet structure. It is however used by GIA and by some trade members who may just blindly read the GIA certificate.

3) I have been corrected and now understand why I will never see the plot from GIA (the crown and pavillion plots) of an Old Mine Brilliant matching any diamonds as a stone with those exact crown and pavillion facets doesn't really exist. Theoretically that crown and pavillion structure would be an OEC stone with the presence of very rounded corners and a pillow like outline.

4) Although not clear from their description and assigned plot GIA does not even claim that their inclusion plots are illustrating the facet structure of the stones they call Old Mine Brilliants only that this plot is as closest match to the limited selection of plots they use for their reports. It is incorrect to even assume that the stone should match the facet structure on the diagram and that is very misleading.

5) I have made it clear the criteria GIA uses to decide the four diamond types (RB, OEC, OMB and CB):

First the gemologist must decide on the outline which is done by eye. The gemologist has to decide if the outline is round enough or if it has the presence of corners (however rounded) which would make it more cushion shaped.
Historically there are a lot of wonky off round cushions or oval like cushions especially actual old antique cushions and the only criteria GIA would require to call them a cushion outline is that they have corners no matter how rounded they are. There is some confusion in many threads in this board when an old very rounded looking cushion is presented and the criteria GIA would use would still be done by eye, looking for some sort of pillow shape or the presence of corners.

So the outline determines if it will be (RB Vs. OEC) or (OMB Vs CB)

Then to determine in round outlines if its (RB or OEC):

3 out of the 4 criteria must be true for it to be called an OEC:

i) Table equal to or less than 53%
ii) Culet Equal to or larger than Slightly Large (by visual inspection not by measurement)
iii) Crown Angles Equal To Or Greater than 40 Degrees
iv) Lower Half Length Equal To Or Smaller than 60% (by visual inspection only not by measurement)

Or to determine in Cushion Outlines if its (CB or OMB)

3 out of the 4 criteria must be true for it to be called OMB:

i) Table equal to or less than 53%
ii) Culet Equal to or larger than Slightly Large (by visual inspection not by measurement)
iii) Crown Angles Equal To Or Greater than 40 Degrees
iv) Lower Half Length Equal To Or Smaller than 60% (by visual inspection only not by measurement)

The method GIA uses to identify these stones is reported correctly by me and is not open to debate as verified by a GIA grading gemologist. You may disagree with how they describe the diamonds or what the names mean but it won't change how GIA has chosen to describe these 4 types of stones.

6) Finally it should be noted that even though the criteria are clear, tests ii) and iv) are subjective and estimates based only on visual inspection which leads to mistakes like this stone http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6463/ which is called by GIA a Cushion Brilliant but it satisfies 3 of the criteria and by their description should be called an Old Mine Brilliant.

Hope this clears up a whole lot of posts.

 

[gemnewbie]

Ok Rough Rock..I hate you! Just kidding, of course. But, I was almost ready to pull the trigger on a great round diamond with a simple Tiffany inspired setting, when I showed my GF this post. What a mistake

So, I''m now entering the Old Mine Cushion world. How complicated and confusing, compared with round brilliant stones.

A couple of questions for you and the experts on here:

My budget for the round brilliant was about $15,000, including the setting. I love the setting you posted from 23rd street, although everyone on here says they are exepensive.

1. What will that setting cost from them? Are there others who will make something very similar for less--if so how much? Will the quality be just as good?

2. After deducting what''s left from the setting cost from my 15K budget, what kind of stone will I be able to get? Assuming I go with a fantastic cut, like the ones at GOG or from Mark that you''re looking at, what is the importance of color and clarity in an OMC? For the round brilliant, I was going to go with an an exceptionally cut I-SI1 but totally eyeclean. Is this color/clarity combination more problematic with an OMC?

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 10/31/2009 1:26:28 PM
Author: gemnewbie
Ok Rough Rock..I hate you! Just kidding, of course. But, I was almost ready to pull the trigger on a great round diamond with a simple Tiffany inspired setting, when I showed my GF this post. What a mistake

So, I''m now entering the Old Mine Cushion world. How complicated and confusing, compared with round brilliant stones.

A couple of questions for you and the experts on here:

My budget for the round brilliant was about $15,000, including the setting. I love the setting you posted from 23rd street, although everyone on here says they are exepensive.

1. What will that setting cost from them? Are there others who will make something very similar for less--if so how much? Will the quality be just as good?

2. After deducting what''s left from the setting cost from my 15K budget, what kind of stone will I be able to get? Assuming I go with a fantastic cut, like the ones at GOG or from Mark that you''re looking at, what is the importance of color and clarity in an OMC? For the round brilliant, I was going to go with an an exceptionally cut I-SI1 but totally eyeclean. Is this color/clarity combination more problematic with an OMC?

1) The range for the setting to be done custom from ~$3000 - $5000 for a CAD/Wax designer and ~$4500 - ~$8000 if hand made and depending on who you go to. The price range reflects not just quality (this is quite subjective) but also the marketing and reputation of the designer. You might also get quotes from Brian at BGD(CAD/Wax), Ocean Pearlman(Handmade), Leon Mege(HandMade), Mart at ERD(Cad/Wax), Singelstone(HandMade), Maytal Hannah(HandMade).
They all make a quality product with excellent finish and polish but some are more delicate than others(much of this is in the melee size) and some allow you micromanage the details more than others.

2) Clarity issues, eye clean or not will not be much different from a round. Eye clean is eye clean and SI1 can be fine.

3) Color issues- you may see more color in an OMC versus a round faceup as the light return is not as efficient but this is very suttle if even observable at all. An H or I may still be fine if you or your fiance are not color sensitive. You would have to look at some stones to judge for yourself.

Where you really see the color is at night or in candle lighting where the available light being returned is less. However many people feel in OMCs a hint of wamrth is fine and adds charm to the stone, as well these stones exhibit Dichroic properties and can shoot off rainbow colors, so a slight hint of warmth of the diamond is not really going be as much of a focal point. In any diamond cut H or I does not mean yellow tint and this would only be observable next to a diamond of higher color.

 

[2ndTime]

Hey GemNewbie! Haha... just when you thought you had it all figured out, a curve ball comes your way.

Bottom line quick answer - yes, you can do this ring for 15,000. CCL''s post is on the money, and you can get great work done for a single row halo setting for around 3k and you can find some great stones for around 12k (or less). Don''t think you can''t get great work for the lower price ranges he''s mentioned - you most certainly can.

I found that 23rd wasn''t as high as everyone seems to think they are. Talk to Diane there - she''s the owner. They''ll set anyone''s stone in one of their settings. Singlestone was comparable as well. Both of those vendors are in Los Angeles so I''ve been to each. However, I''m working with Mark at ERD when it came down to it. I''ve got the CAD renderings on it and it''s currently being made.

When my lovely saw these cushion rings, solitaire settings no longer held any interest for her whatsoever. There''s no going back buddy!

 

[2ndTime]

It''s done and on the way - I''ll see it tomorrow.

 

[Collee]

CAN'T WAIT to see pics!!!!

 

[2ndTime]

here it is...

 

[bigdiamondtinygal]

Oh!! It looks BEAUTIFUL!!! Please come back and post handshots in the show me the ring forum after the proposal!! She is very lucky!!
Good luck!!

 

[Luckyeshe]

GORGEOUS!!!

It''s absolutely stunning!!! She''s gonna love it!! And I can''t wait to see hand pics!!

 

[2ndTime]

Here is the link to the thread for the finished ring...

Show me the Ring!

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 11/11/2009 4:57:08 PM
Author: 2ndTime
Here is the link to the thread for the finished ring...

Show me the Ring!

Congratulatiosn it looks great! I am glad it worked out for you, there was some debate in this thread for a while

 

[emeraldlover1]

Date: 10/30/2009 1:46:56 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 10/21/2009 2:50:18 PM
Author: emeraldlover1

Date: 10/21/2009 1:38:25 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 10/21/2009 7:47:06 AM
Author: supercheeks
rhino
i am saying that there''s stones out there plain and simple- some are dogs and some are beautiful- and that other vendors have acccess to OMB''s etc- what u are cutting is lovely but if someone does not want to wait, there''s stones out there to be bought that could potentially just as nice ......

why are vendors allowed to comment on forums ? shouldn''t there be a little ''church and state here'' since it seems that you had a possible biz transaction with 2nd time? don''t get that....

Supercheeks,

The stones referred to here are not Old Mine Brilliants. This is a mistake GIA makes on the certificates and plots and is misleading, they simply assign these terms based on the table % which is incorrect. For an explanation with pictures look at the bottom of my first thread on pricescope here https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/old-mine-brilliant-versus-cushion-brilliant-gotta-have-the-maltese-cross.118358/.

There are 8 main Cushion Brilliant stones with Antique Chunky Facets and a large culet and there are Old Mine Cuts, but most modern cut stones and new inventory fall into one of these two categories despite the GIA label and plot which says Old Mine Brilliant and is arbitrarily assiged based on the Table %.

I refrained from commenting on your posts before in this thread because it does appear the OP cannot wait and his spec range is not available in a GOG signature cushion and there may be a long waiting time for one to be available.

I do suggest though to avoid further misleading posts that you read my thread this was my first one on Pricescope https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/old-mine-brilliant-versus-cushion-brilliant-gotta-have-the-maltese-cross.118358/. There are many posts from experience Pricescopers contained within and I have provided a side by side ASET comparison of a stone sourced by Mark and a GOG signature cushion.

There is no comparison between the best that Mark at ERD can offer in 8 main cushion brilliants and the GOG signature OMC line. If a customer is looking for the best and brightest maltese cross under the table with no obstruction than GOG is the only place to find these stones. Even the top choice in this thread although a beautiful bright antique cushion brilliant it is clear from the pictures that there is some obstruction and darkness in the 4 mains (3,6,9,12).

I am very impressed with Mark at ERD he is a wonderful vendor, and he has taught me a great deal about what I know about cushions(we also bought all of our rings from him) see this thread https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/the-shocking-final-diamond-choice-i-gave-to-my-fiance-which-one-would-you-pick.121154/ on my side by side lineup,
however as of yet he has not spent the time and resources to optimize the light return in these OMC stones. ERD has a wider range of stones (more variety in the 4Cs especially higher colors) available as he works regularly with a vendor that cuts them but they have not taken the sames risks as GOG to develop the line and use stringent light performance measures to reject stones that don''t meet Rhino''s stringent cut criteria.

I spoke to a dozen or so vendors and cutters and none of them wanted to offer the same assurance that I would get a stone with the same cut consistency, that and the price and risk just made it impractical to go anywherelse but GOG if you ''Gotta have that bold maltese cross!''

In addition Rhino is allowed to comment in threads when posts are made with inaccurate information. I feel that comparing any other non branded OMC to his signature line is quite inaccurate and misleading and warrants his comments. I only wish I had made this post earlier and he did not even have to respond here as it sounds much better coming from an unbiased consumer.
Mark at ERD and Jon(Rhino) at GOG were my greatest source of information on Cushion Cuts and I am eternally greatful to both for their long discussions with me even though neither made a great profit(if any) from my purchases.

Sincerely,
CCL

CCL: I wasn''t going to respond however, I''m confused. Are you saying that you are unbiased? I''ve read quite a few of your threads and I''m surprised that you think your suggestions are unbiased. Personally I think they are opinions based on your personal experience. While that is valid information and helpful in my opinion is biased.

While it is great that you had an amazing experience, as did I with Mark, its frustrating to read the posts with questions from forum members about cushions and halo settings (more so about the settings) where you consistently think that what ERD can produce is what the consumer wants and needs. Maybe you don''t intend it this way but its the way it has come across to me. The only reason that I am typing this is because I think that one of the purposes of this forum is to help consumers understand diamonds and settings and help them get what they want, not what CCL thinks is the best and wants them to get. Unfortunatley that is the way it comes across sometimes.

Did you post your finished ring anywhere? I was looking for it as I saw your post in BWW but I didn''t see your ring posted anywhere. Congrats on getting engaged.

Sorry to the OP for the threadjack. I''m glad that you found a stone.

EC,


Thanks for your interest. At the request of my Fiance I cannot post her ring as much as I would like to. She feels that the ring should be hers alone and not shared with others. I hope she will change her mind in time so I can share it with the community that inspired the work. However if you want to see a copy of my design and the inspiration for CushionDivine''s ring you can see the cad drawings and pictures of her 4 Ct ring created by Mark at ERD posted here https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-10yr-cushion-upgrade-from-erd.124340/. The halo melee size, shank size melee, pave style and most other elements are similar to my Fiance''s 1.59Ct ring. There is certainly a degree of bias and subjectivity in anyone''s comments on settings especially mine on this design as I spent considerable time breaking down the ~25 or so technical elements into a 12 page design file that make a HW micropave ring so beautiful.

However, my comments about cushion comparisons were really supposed to be objective and not a sales pitch for GOG. To that end Rhino and I collaborated on a a video comparison between the best 8 main antique cushion I could find in his inventory and his august vintage cushions http://www.vimeo.com/7222811. In my opinion this is the fairest comparison of a Antique 8 main and GOG''s signature line that could possibly be made and you and the posters here can make up your own mind if you see the differences. This comparison is also extremely fair to other vendors as most Antique 8 mains don''t have nearly as much red in the ASET as that 1.03 G VVS1.

Although it may not appear this way prima facie (you may not know I sent back a GOG August Vintage and bought my only diamond from Mark at ERD) I am actually trying to educate posters in this thread on the nuances of cushions not push them to one vendor or another or cram my opinion down someone''s throat.

CCL

Hey, Sorry, I missed this response. I only follow threads for a few days and I must have missed it.

I''d love to see the ring if she eventually decides to let you post it as well as I think its fantastic that you spent to much effort into something that she would love and cherrish.