Consolation money to the "losing" jeweler?

[MollyMalone]

I'm thinking that if you really liked the stone from NYC after seeing it in person & spending some time with it, you wouldn't be asking for feedback?

My other thought is that the local jeweler would really benefit from seeing for himself a wider variety of asscher cuts than his apparently limited experience with 'em has been

 

[Dancing Fire]

He said the 19% crown is way outside of what he called ideal for an asscher of 9-12% crown. He said that fact alone, really made it a poor choice.

He's full of BULL!. Here's an Octavia asscher I used to own notice the crown height of 23.9%?. Now notice the AGS cut grade? Ideal 0

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

@marymm , I harbor your same opinion in my logical core. My rational thoughts about the situation are exactly as you've described them. I don't think he used the time that would necessary to come to the conclusion he reached that the stone he has is one of the best available in the world. His words.

I'm just trying to be considerate for what effort did go in, but as you say, that effort is his business, not a personal favor he's doing for me.

I asked him via text this morning if I could come by and take another look at the 1.52, bringing with me one I'd sourced from outside for comparison purposes.

His response, via text, wasn't unexpected but I was hoping for a better one. He said if I was planning on choosing that way, by a visual comparison, that may not be the best, that it takes trained eyes and equipment that cost thousands of dollars to determine the best stone, which he pointed out they have done with the stone they have.

He went on to say that they've held the 1.52 for almost two weeks while looking for others and that he has used up his favors with one of his best diamond venders, who told him they could have already sold the stone.

In the end, he did say all of this was his problem, not mine, but that he knows I want the best and that he's confident he has it.

So, I don't know what I'm going to do. I wrote back, and said I understand and appreciated his effort, but that I'd still like to come by and see the two together. He's not written back just yet.

It’s the same story whenever a stone is on hold. I’ve heard every time lol. It’s a fomo sales tactic.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Saying the taller crown is ‘bad’ is BS; and many on here who own taller-crown asschers would argue he is flat out wrong! I am FAR from any kind of asscher expert, having only seen a handful in person myself before my ‘asscher-ish’ purchase earlier this year, and even I know he is wrong. Ideal stats aside, some people like lower crowns, some like taller crowns, big tables, small tables, etc. @Dancing Fire has proof in his post containing his AGS cert that a tall crown can be part of the formula creating an ‘ideal’ cut ‘asscher’ (square emerald). I still can’t believe he sold that beauty!

Which do YOU like? Which do YOU prefer? Only you can say for sure. I may have missed this in your other posts, but is there a reason the intended recipient isn’t getting a look at them to choose? I gather she knows this is in the works; maybe let her see both and decide which one she likes most?

There may be some ‘suggested guidelines’ when it comes to fancy cuts like step cuts, but I don’t believe it’s anywhere close to the more scientific ‘one size fits all’ specs you can use as a guide for rounds, and even then there are preferences in terms of white light return vs fire, etc.

My point - your jeweler might be the nicest guy on earth; that doesn’t make him right, especially when he is also trying to close a $20k sale. I’d be curious to know on what he bases his idea of ‘ideal asscher’ specs.

 

[pearaffair]

Leave them a nice review

 

[PreRaphaelite]

Leave them a nice review

And leave them!

 

[Lykame]

Update:

I met with the local jeweler today and looked at the 1.52 again (without immediately pulling out the 1.85 I'd brought with me). He spoke highly of his stone, saying, as far as asschers go, it was expertly cut. It is pretty in its way, certainly, but it is very different than the 1.85. Is has a 10% crown to the 1.85's 19% crown, so it is quite a drastic difference.

I looked at it with him for about 15 minutes, with him discussing the virtues of its specific cut. Though my initial thoughts were that, at least looking at it close, that much of the facets under the table were "off" at the same time, making for quite a dark center when my head was blocking the light. The eventual stone is destined for a pendant, so I've come to the understanding that this particular darkness (what would be blue in the ASET) may not necessarily be the case for pendant viewing. If I were buying for a ring, I would likely steer clear of this one, though the darkness IS interesting, in its own way.

I told him that I brought the other stone, but, if it would bother him, I wouldn't compare them. He said that he wouldn't be bothered at all, so I took it out and put them side-by-side, then out of the jeweler lights, then we put them both in tweezers and set them up on a shelf for a bit of distance viewing. At a distance, the 1.52 wasn't AS dark in the middle, and my initial thoughts were that it might have a slight edge for fire while the 1.85 had the edge for brilliance (due to the higher crown, I imagine). When together, the 1.52, whether at a distance or close up, did seem significantly darker, but cleaner or more pure-looking, maybe? I'm sure he'd steamed it before I arrived, and I've been pawing at the 1.85 since Thursday, so maybe that explains that observation.

Below is the ASET I took of the 1.52 while in the store using my ipad as a backlight and my phone as a camera.


Here is the ASET again of the 1.85

The higher crown of the 1.85 gives quite a bit more sparkle from the table facets, no doubt, in person, too. However, the jeweler's opinion of the 1.85 was that it was poorly cut, that he noticed the high crown immediately, and that fact reduced its value quite a bit and it was way over priced at 17,800. He said the 19% crown is way outside of what he called ideal for an asscher of 9-12% crown. He said that fact alone, really made it a poor choice. He did allow that the 1.85 had more "sparkle", because the cuts were so different, but sparkle wasn't really what asschers are about. As far as comparing the two stones, he said it wasn't really an apples-to-apples comparison (I agree, there) and if I liked the look of higher crowns, he could look specifically for higher-crowned asschers, implying that could find a better version of the 1.85.

This is an iPad video I took standing outside the store with him holding the stone in a paper tray. It's not the best, because I didn't have control of the tray, and it was raining and people were everywhere, but it might give anyone interested some idea. You'll see, when the stone finally turns to face the viewer, the darkness to which I was referring, about 1:00 in.

We did discuss doing a custom setting, whether I bought a stone from him or not, so that's positive, and he said the source for the 1.52 has already sold it if I don't buy it, that he's not going to send it back to the source, but to the new owner, if I choose not to buy it, again, for $20,022 (that's with tax). I told him I would let him know tomorrow whether he could send it on Monday or give it to me.

So, thoughts/opinions on the 1.52? Thoughts/opinions on his evaluation of the 1.85? It's always hard for me to separate out the sales bias, and because of that, I tend to view most of what is said as sales bias, which may not always been the case.

Frankly, unless I'm persuaded otherwise, I'll very likely choose one of these. The search could go on forever, and my anniversary was June 12th. My wife is being a gem being cool with me taking as long as I want (she doesn't know what I'm doing). When the jeweler said he'd be happy to start searching for high-crowned asschers, my immediate internal, gut-reaction to that was poor.

Interested in everyone's thoughts, but I'm just linking the pro's I know of, but if you know of more, feel free to link them. @Karl_K @diagem @Rhino

I know nothing about asschers, so I can only go by the videos, and from the video that stone looks dead. Your other stone in your other thread looked very alive and on. I don't know how different your viewing distances were though. Go by what your physical eyes saw, really.

Also you may be setting it as a pendant now, but in the future if you want to sell it, for example, most people look for stones for rings, or indeed your wife may decide she wants it reset as a ring. So I would bear that in mind too.

If you are going to use this jeweller to set it (the one that isn't his) (I think that would be nice to ask him), ask him if he has a setting fee for outside stones - he can use that as an opportunity to charge for a bit of time back if he wants. That way the ball is in his court rather than yours and you can't offer him either too much or too little. Ensure he has insurance for outside stones too. Also ensure you are happy with his benchwork.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Putting aside ALL the other ‘fluff’ regarding the jeweler’s opinion of crown height, any ‘consolation prize’, etc., and only looking at the two videos of the jeweler’s diamond and the one you have from elsewhere (video in this thread: https://www.pricescope.com/communit...t-images-and-of-course-some-questions.249999/) ... I MUCH prefer the performance, light return, brightness, appearance of the steps, etc. in the ‘other vendor’s’ diamond over the local jeweler’s diamond. It just looks overall better to my eyes.

 

[rainydaze]

I don't care for the 1.52, it just doesn't grab me at all. The 1.85 in your video appears brighter and more active with its on-off facets.

Asschers are tricky and it takes time, patience, and persistence to find one that makes you sing. Your jeweler isn't up for that, as evidenced by his old-fashioned hard sell tactics best used on less knowledgable customers. The reason you had a poor gut reaction to him sourcing higher crowned options is that he's not being honest with you, his 'skill' is more towards selling than diamonds, and he lacks the patience (and knowledge) to find you what you are looking for. I think your relationship with him is already thin and having him do some more searching is going to end up with bad feelings for both of you.

(Edited to add: the fact that he still sells with tactics like 'it's already sold if you don't want it' instead of learning more about diamonds and selling with knowledge is why pursuing this further with him is likely a dead-end unless he gets super lucky with the next one he calls in.)

 

[rainydaze]

PS - since you are limited on time, how about reaching out to vendors who really know their asschers and would be able to zero in on true contenders for you. And who will be able to be honest about ones that sounded like they'd be great but aren't, because they truly know what better is and know better is still out there.

Jon of August Vintage Inc (not sure if he sells diamonds other than his own AV line, he used to when he was with GOG, he posted here in your thread) and Layla at CBI (again, not sure if HPD sells/sources asschers or if they only sell CBIs) come to mind. I'm sure there are others, but I am not well-versed in this so hopefully someone else can pop in with ideas.

 

[Venzen007]

I'm thinking that if you really liked the stone from NYC after seeing it in person & spending some time with it, you wouldn't be asking for feedback?

There may be something to that, but it may also be (more likely, I think) that I'm just looking for educated opinions to bolster my initial thoughts, knowing that mine is a novice's impression.

 

[Venzen007]

It’s the same story whenever a stone is on hold. I’ve heard every time lol. It’s a fomo sales tactic.

That's how my skeptical mind heard it, but I tend to be overly skeptical, so I sometimes have to force myself to at least consider that someone is being straight with me, lol. I'm not good at forcing myself.

 

[Venzen007]

I may have missed this in your other posts, but is there a reason the intended recipient isn’t getting a look at them to choose? I gather she knows this is in the works; maybe let her see both and decide which one she likes most?

Yes, there has been a reason. I've intended it as a surprise. She doesn't know what I'm working on. But, interesting you should mention this. Yesterday, as I was looking at both stones side-by-side, trying to appreciate their pros and cons, I began to think about the possibility of bringing my wife in and just letting the surprise be that she was getting something like this, rather than the surprise being the finished product. I mentioned it to the jeweler, that I was almost considering ending the surprise and seeing if my wife had a clear preference. His response was maybe a bit telling. He suggested that because I'd done all the research, and since she no doubt wants the best stone, that I'd be the best person to pick the stone rather than her. I was a little surprised by that, but if he has a fear that his stone isn't a pleasing as the 1.85, he may think he has a better shot at convincing me that the 1.52 is "better".

As far as which one I aesthetically like more (outside of trying to get the most objectively ideal asscher for the money), I do think the 1.85 looks great, and I think she'll like it (like I typically do, I've probably taken too deep dive into the details). That said about the 1.85, the darkness of the 1.52 is sort of interesting "to me" (probably not to my wife), but I like dark colors. The 1.52's darkness isn't dimness, per se; it's dark as in it actually looks black when I'm looking at it through the table, and the "black" has an interesting patterning. However, at least in that view, it hardly looks a diamond at all, but something else. I'd consider buying it for myself to make something masculine out of it, if it wasn't diamond-expensive. Frankly, I just don't own any jewelry, other than a darkened titanium wedding band.

 

[Venzen007]

The reason you had a poor gut reaction to him sourcing higher crowned options is that he's not being honest with you, his 'skill' is more towards selling than diamonds, and he lacks the patience (and knowledge) to find you what you are looking for. I think your relationship with him is already thin and having him do some more searching is going to end up with bad feelings for both of you.

These were my thoughts. He's definitely leading hard with all of his sell-tactic cards, leaving me with the impression that those are the only cards he has to play, whether or not that's the case.

The fact that he still sells with tactics like 'it's already sold if you don't want it' instead of learning more about diamonds and selling with knowledge is why pursuing this further with him is likely a dead-end unless he gets super lucky with the next one he calls in.)

I suspected that a likely sell tactic, as well, and if so, I have another word for it, which bugs me tremendously about so-called "sells tactics". As I mentioned before, a big reason I let him keep looking after I got the impression that we were not on the same page was that "luck" factor you mention, but I dislike a situation where I feel like I'm panning for a nugget of frankness in a river of BS.

since you are limited on time, how about reaching out to vendors who really know their asschers and would be able to zero in on true contenders for you.

That's what I believe I did after I lost confidence. The second entity, who found and ultimately recommended that I lay eyes on the 1.85, I learned of through this forum. That's not saying I believe, without reservation, everything they say, but I definitely have gotten a better gut-feeling in our interactions so far.

 

[kgizo]

I’m not an expert, but based on the videos I strongly prefer the 1.85.

 

[Bfelix]

After seeing videos of both, my eyes take to the 1.85. For Asschers, it really is what appeals to the eyes. After seeing both, which do you prefer?

 

[ringo865]

If the 1.85 is bigger and looks to perform better, why would you pay more money for the smaller darker deader one? And how is the larger, nicer stone “way overpriced” at 17800 when the smaller, deader one is $20022. Because the guy has an agenda. We have no agenda here other than helping people find well performing stones for people for free.

 

[Venzen007]

why would you pay more money for the smaller darker deader one?

That got a laugh, btw, and while he was pitching it, I was listening intently for a convincing justification. In the end, it just seemed like he kept coming back to the dimension numbers "proving" his was the better cut.

 

[gregchang35]

i think you have the answer, already.
others have pointed out key things that you had raised, and they are valid.

go with your gut instinct.


My opinion.
i would choose the 1.85ct - it performed better on the videos.
the 1.52 didint do much for me.

 

[BMI]

only looking at the two videos of the jeweler’s diamond and the one you have from elsewhere (video in this thread: https://www.pricescope.com/communit...t-images-and-of-course-some-questions.249999/) ... I MUCH prefer the performance, light return, brightness, appearance of the steps, etc. in the ‘other vendor’s’ diamond over the local jeweler’s diamond. It just looks overall better to my eyes.

DITTO to this ^.

that I'm just looking for educated opinions to bolster my initial thoughts, knowing that mine is a novice's impression.

I don't know how "educated" my opinion is, but if the videos are at all accurate to what you see IRL, the 1.85 is the clear winner between these two diamonds IMO. I can't imagine your wife not being thrilled with it.

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

If you sit the stone on your hand it might look better as it would in day to day life.

A jeweller will never endorse an outside stone if they have one competing with it. When helping a friend with an oval, every jeweller went on about the inferior cut and bad performance of an August vintage opulence opal we were strongly considering, as opposed to the common oval they had on offer. In the end it dissuaded my friend from the opulence, thinking didn’t have enough pros, and he bought the common oval.

 

[cmd2014]

I think if you have seen them both in person (which you have), and one of them looks better to your eye (which it sounds like it does), then you have your answer as to which one to go with. Plus, it sounds like the 1.85 stone is from a vendor recommended from here who specializes in this cut, so can provide more expert opinions on the relative cut quality of the stone (and can provide you with better examples of this style of stone).

Asschers are very specific cuts though (as in some people love them, while other people really don't - they are a bit polarizing in a way that other shapes are not). Is this something that you know for sure your wife will love? It would be a shame to go through all of this work (and spend a relatively large sum of money on) only to discover that she's not an Asscher fan.

Also, we see again and again people here who have custom work done by local jewelers who are not happy with the quality of the work in the end. I might suggest looking at actual examples of the bench's work before deciding whether or not to go the direction of a custom setting with your local jeweler - especially if you are not wanting something relatively common (as in, a prefabricated setting from Stuller or some such). You might be better off having it set with the vendor who has provided the stone...

 

[Venzen007]

FINAL UPDATE:

I informed my local jeweler first thing this morning that I had decided on the 1.85. I told him it just came down to the look I knew my wife would like best. I said that though I thought the 1.52 was interesting for it's dark-facet patterning, I felt it was somewhat masculine. (Me trying to be as complimentary as I could while still being honest - in retrospect, I probably should have left that out).

As far as compensation or consolation in an attempt to show appreciation for his efforts, in line with some of the advice I've received here, I decided to offer him the opportunity to handle the custom setting (it was he who initially suggested a custom setting), and when we met on Saturday to take what was the final look at his 1.52, we discussed some custom setting consideration briefly, with him taking the opportunity to mention that the 1.85 stone would present difficulties due to its disproportion (you'd think it suffered from some grotesque disfigurement). That said, quite frankly, I almost didn't offer that opportunity due to the impressions I'd developed over our several meetings, and I felt some uneasiness doing so.

Fortunately, I didn't have to feel uneasy long.

In his response to me, he told me how "very disappointed" he was. He said that once we identified that I liked the 1.85, he should have been given the opportunity to find me a higher crown asscher (this was him, in my opinion, misattributing the stone's total performance to merely having a higher crown percent). I'm sincerely curious whether anyone agrees with his feelings here. Should I have?

He went on to say, that while he appreciated the interest in having them make the setting, he feels it best to cut his losses, saying that he'd spent "countless hours in payroll" and a "significant amount" on shipping, and that he needed to now focus his resources on customers who had been put on hold while they pursued my project. He ended with saying he's sure the finished pedant will be very nice.

I thanked him for his directness and told him that I'd be happy to cover the shipping costs he accrued for my benefit, to which he thanked me, but declined.

 

[PreRaphaelite]

It sounds like you dodged a bullet, and that the door to further business is now closed. I’m so glad the PS community was here to support you as you wrestled with the issue, and especially that you exited the situation unscathed. Many, many, many consumers are not as lucky.

Please come back and show us pics of the pendant!

 

[Diamond_Hawk]

@Venzen007 - I really have enjoyed this thread on multiple levels - thank you for the way you handled the subject matter and the conversations. I look forward to the conclusion (and pics) of the finished piece.

 

[cmd2014]

I honestly think this is for the best. I suspect that they would not be able to provide you with a setting that you would be happy with and it's best not to frustrate you both further by trying.

I'm also looking forward to the finished piece! I hope it ends up being everything you hope it will be.

 

[bludiva]

I disagree that you owed him an opportunity to find a comparable diamond with a taller crown. He had the chance to understand what you were looking for and tried to convince you a flatter crown is better. Sounds like he wanted to blow off some steam. That's fine but if business is getting tougher because custoners have more resources at their disposal, it's not your fault. I don't understand vendors who think you should be happy to choose from 3 subpar options.

 

[the_mother_thing]

I am baffled by the local jeweler. Why should you have given him an opportunity to find a diamond with specs he indicated were ‘undesireable’/not good/etc., especially after he insinuated this was the best he could find and that it would be the last he would call in?

I am rethinking my earlier suggestion on any consolation prize, at this point.

 

[lydial]

Now that you are looking for a custom jeweler I strongly recommend Steven Kirsch in New York. Good luck!

 

[cmd2014]

Yeah, I think he let his frustration show and that was not a good move. There is a fine line between communicating your limits and being so honest that you offend customers and guarantee the loss of future sales. I think saying "I'm sorry I wasn't able to source what you were looking for, and to be honest I don't think we would be able to provide you with the type of design and custom setting services that you are likely looking for, but I hope that you will keep us in mind for future projects" might have been a better way to go. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging your limits.