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College Tuition in 20 Years

JoeQueen

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 3, 2020
Messages
20
Yes. As someone who tread the harder path, I would. It is the only way forward as the last first world without free or heavily subsidized education. America could easily subsidize all education, if we wanted. We already rank low middling in the education pack(along with most other quality metrics) and it has much to do with inequitable allocation of resources. It's foolish and shortsighted. I wish there had been more help for me, but I'm not going to prevent the next generation receiving said help. For me, that's like saying no to the wheel because I only knew the sledge. It's our future.

True. They could always create a solution for people that have already paid off their loans. Possibly, tax breaks.
 

elizat

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 23, 2013
Messages
3,248
I could be game for this without the EXORBITANT and predatory interest rates. To finish college I was forced to take out loans over 8%. THAT should not be allowed. It should all be at a FIXED low interest rate for as long as it takes you to finish that degree, with no interest accruing until you're out of school and have a job (or a reasonable time frame, a year for instance). Those rates are why I took out maybe 65k and owed over 80 before I even graduated, that amount then got added to my loans before I even had a job in my field. Nightmare fuel. Rates were much lower when I started than when I stopped, I had no control over this and no way to know it was going to happen.

That's actually really terrible. I remember after I graduated the interest rates for federal student loans were going through the roof. I totally am an agreement with you that that is beyond predatory. It's especially predatory when the federal loans are the cheaper option as compared to private. I always thought that the interest accruing while you were in school before you had even graduated was actually quite crazy.

I am extremely thankful that I was able to consolidate all of my federal loans while I was still in school and lock them in at a fixed interest rate that is very low.

They even crazier thing is the problem with interest rates and how the loan programs, including income contingent repayment, are managed is completely fixable if they *actually* wanted to fix it.
 

Cerulean

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 13, 2019
Messages
3,025
Progress is not to payoff your debts? :confused: Sorry, but I have a different philosophy when it comes to paying back your debts. You borrowed the money you are the one responsible for paying it back.

It’s not about helping the individual - it’s about the collective. Again, this isn’t an act of charity. It’s an act of service for the nation.

It’s about regulating the high costs, the high interest, and a period of “handover” between the older, unethical ways of doing things with higher learning and the new. It’s about releasing a population of people who may have signed documents as young as 18 so they can put money back into the economy instead of playing catch up for their entire lives.

Don’t we want younger generations to succeed? Unless they have parents to shoulder the burden or they have extremely high earning potential, we are setting them up for failure. I would happily let go of the fact that my husband and I have sacrificed so much to pay off our loans if it means the problem isn’t inherited.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
33,733
Don’t we want younger generations to succeed? Unless they have parents to shoulder the burden or they have extremely high earning potential, we are setting them up for failure. I would happily let go of the fact that my husband and I have sacrificed so much to pay off our loans if it means the problem isn’t inherited.
Yes, and I want our younger generations to have responsibility.
 

Cerulean

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 13, 2019
Messages
3,025
Yes, and I want our younger generations to have responsibility.

Of course I do too, but it's not really a consensual system we have in place if we leave them no choice.

Federal and local governments are absolutely responsible for fixing this catastrophic mess they've created.

In most circumstances, you can't even declare bankruptcy against student loans. Financial literacy is poor for many Americans and they don't teach it in school. High schools counsellors aren't properly trained. Students and parents don't have the support they need to even make smart choices.

There are no warnings when students start looking at loan amounts that are far beyond their earning potential. Or on the flip side, they don't know how to evaluate which degrees are the best investments.

If you look at the data, average student debt is ~38k and over 15% of Americans hold student debt. It doesn't seem reasonable to conclude that 45 million Americans are just totally moronic about finances.

A 17yr old can't buy cigarettes or a beer, but they can sign away their financial freedom. At least cigarettes and booze come with warning labels.

Riddle me that one.
 

winnietucker

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
2,021
Yes, and I want our younger generations to have responsibility.

That kind of ties into my complaint though. My husband and I have degrees that are considered to be decent degrees by most people but we didn’t make the salaries we had hoped for/ expected. I googled mine! I’d have been super upset if I had a ton of student loans but wasn’t making the amount of money people promised. When I was in HS the general message was that if you want to amount to anything, you better go to college.

When my husband was last job searching there were entry level jobs asking you to have a masters (but a PhD was preferred), wanting you to already be a licensed engineer (which in our state takes years of working under a licensed engineer), and some other nonsense. You don’t want entry level at that point... You just don’t want to pay experienced engineer wages.

Then add the other issue of life being expensive. Housing is nuts! It’s not like people graduate college and still have no other expenses aside from their student loans.

We can’t throw kids to the wolves and then be surprised they get eaten alive. We have to start addressing some problems. I’m not sure forgiving student loans without addressing the underlying issue is the best approach but I’m not against it.

And for people who are like “but the trades!” You know how competitive that is? In our area there were well over a thousand applicants for the electrician’s union and something like 60 spots available. When my husband got his first job he worked with union electricians and one of them basically told him to stick to being an engineer. The money isn’t as good but it’s easier on the body physically.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Messages
33,733
If you look at the data, average student debt is ~38k and over 15% of Americans hold student debt. It doesn't seem reasonable to conclude that 45 million Americans are just totally moronic about finances.
It doesn't take an Einstein to figure out that you are the one held responsible to pay back the loan.
 

maryjane04

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
1,229
If the interest rates were better i.e. indexed at inflation or something like 1% or less. Then everyone can pay back their loans :)
 

MRBXXXFVVS1

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
1,297
I struggled with student loans despite working full time, but sacrificed, saved, and worked hard to pay them off. I have mixed feelings about all of this (and bail outs in general). I've also had investments not work out, but I pivot and/or take the loss because it was my choice to invest, there are risks and rewards.

Yes, there definitely needs to be reform and education should be accessible. But, a loan is a choice. I know people and circumstances vary, but I see a lot of people who complain about student loans buy new cars and take fancy vacations.

I would be supportive of some kind of limited, need based student loan modification or repayment program, perhaps zero interest and rolling back the amount owed to the principle (and forgoing accrued interest). Or if people work in underserved industries/roles, they could get their loans forgiven based on years of tenure/service. Or requiring community service and volunteering to "work off" the student loan debt. As long as there is some accountability. I would not be supportive of a blanket student loan forgiveness, unless everyone who paid for their/someone's education got a credit.

Also, in reality the government doesn't have unlimited resources. There are opportunity costs of investing in healthcare, environmental, and many many other deserving causes. With more government spending, comes inflation and greater taxation. There's no "free lunch."

Personally, I'm a huge advocate of solving issues at the "bottom" of the pyramid (similar to Maslov's hierarchy of needs). I believe that everyone should be entitled to healthcare access without worrying about paying for it. Health is ultimately all we have, and most health issues are not due to patient lifestyle and choices. We should prioritize issues like that. Debt is a choice.
 

JoeQueen

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 3, 2020
Messages
20
I struggled with student loans despite working full time, but sacrificed, saved, and worked hard to pay them off. I have mixed feelings about all of this (and bail outs in general). I've also had investments not work out, but I pivot and/or take the loss because it was my choice to invest, there are risks and rewards.

Yes, there definitely needs to be reform and education should be accessible. But, a loan is a choice. I know people and circumstances vary, but I see a lot of people who complain about student loans buy new cars and take fancy vacations.

I would be supportive of some kind of limited, need based student loan modification or repayment program, perhaps zero interest and rolling back the amount owed to the principle (and forgoing accrued interest). Or if people work in underserved industries/roles, they could get their loans forgiven based on years of tenure/service. Or requiring community service and volunteering to "work off" the student loan debt. As long as there is some accountability. I would not be supportive of a blanket student loan forgiveness, unless everyone who paid for their/someone's education got a credit.

Also, in reality the government doesn't have unlimited resources. There are opportunity costs of investing in healthcare, environmental, and many many other deserving causes. With more government spending, comes inflation and greater taxation. There's no "free lunch."

Personally, I'm a huge advocate of solving issues at the "bottom" of the pyramid (similar to Maslov's hierarchy of needs). I believe that everyone should be entitled to healthcare access without worrying about paying for it. Health is ultimately all we have, and most health issues are not due to patient lifestyle and choices. We should prioritize issues like that. Debt is a choice.

I get what your saying, most debt is a choice. However, we live in a country where education can literally make the difference between living in the middle class and living in poverty. Most salaries that don’t require a college degree have an average yearly salary under 50k. When you factor in children, the ridiculous costs of health insurance, taxes, and living expenses, it’s just not sustainable for many people. This forces the majority to want to go to college to avoid this. I do agree that students should choose to go to more affordable colleges, and avoid private schools unless a scholarship is being offered. Also, choose a degree where you can make a decent salary after.
 

JoeQueen

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 3, 2020
Messages
20
It’s also my opinion, that parents should definitely help their kids to at least pay for an undergraduate degree if possible, especially if it’s a degree that’s worth paying a lot of money for. At least by helping out, they will avoid crippling debt after graduation. I don’t see the point in making your kids “learn the hard way”, or struggle with bills in their 20s when they could be saving for other things, or buying a first home.
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
4,813
I get what your saying, most debt is a choice. However, we live in a country where education can literally make the difference between living in the middle class and living in poverty. Most salaries that don’t require a college degree have an average yearly salary under 50k. When you factor in children, the ridiculous costs of health insurance, taxes, and living expenses, it’s just not sustainable for many people. This forces the majority to want to go to college to avoid this. I do agree that students should choose to go to more affordable colleges, and avoid private schools unless a scholarship is being offered. Also, choose a degree where you can make a decent salary after.
I disagree, it's not education that makes the primary difference. It's a huge difference in ATTITUDE towards work between the middle class and the poor. No degree forced upon someone without a good work ethic is going to make the slightest difference when they simply don't wish to work.

The most stressful part of my job, day in, day out, is trying to find good employees at my company that's in manufacturing and growing at a record pace. We're not looking for a degree, but for capable, trustworthy people who are willing to learn and who are stable. Even people with good degrees can be unreliable, can lie, play hooky, cause drama in the workplace, etc and be let go. No amount of education can save a toxic personality.

In the current environment, we're not able to find temporary workers or full time hires BECAUSE there are too many free government handouts. It doesn't make sense for people to work when unemployment is paying them to NOT work, and I'm finding that to get the same number of applicants to the same basic labor position as we got two years ago, we have to offer double minimum wage. I'm personally stressed out by workers quitting on purpose for unemployment handouts. Government artificially driving up cost of labor for honest American businesses in manufacturing.

Sympathy for the downtrodden is often misguided and can have the opposite effect on the larger picture.

Forgiving student debt is curing the symptom and not the disease. The better, harder, more correct thing to do is to revamp public K-12 education to include personal finance as a required class to graduate high school so we don't send young people out into the world blindly signing away their financial independence.

Honestly, politicians these days are looking for the easy "fixes" that are only causing more problems down the road. We need to think critically and carefully about every policy proposed and stop wasting resources on cheap band-aid solutions that aren't fixing the underlying problem.
 

JoeQueen

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 3, 2020
Messages
20
I disagree, it's not education that makes the primary difference. It's a huge difference in ATTITUDE towards work between the middle class and the poor. No degree forced upon someone without a good work ethic is going to make the slightest difference when they simply don't wish to work.

The most stressful part of my job, day in, day out, is trying to find good employees at my company that's in manufacturing and growing at a record pace. We're not looking for a degree, but for capable, trustworthy people who are willing to learn and who are stable. Even people with good degrees can be unreliable, can lie, play hooky, cause drama in the workplace, etc and be let go. No amount of education can save a toxic personality.

In the current environment, we're not able to find temporary workers or full time hires BECAUSE there are too many free government handouts. It doesn't make sense for people to work when unemployment is paying them to NOT work, and I'm finding that to get the same number of applicants to the same basic labor position as we got two years ago, we have to offer double minimum wage. I'm personally stressed out by workers quitting on purpose for unemployment handouts. Government artificially driving up cost of labor for honest American businesses in manufacturing.

Sympathy for the downtrodden is often misguided and can have the opposite effect on the larger picture.

Forgiving student debt is curing the symptom and not the disease. The better, harder, more correct thing to do is to revamp public K-12 education to include personal finance as a required class to graduate high school so we don't send young people out into the world blindly signing away their financial independence.

Honestly, politicians these days are looking for the easy "fixes" that are only causing more problems down the road. We need to think critically and carefully about every policy proposed and stop wasting resources on cheap band-aid solutions that aren't fixing the underlying problem.

I do agree that a degree is not going to make someone work harder. But, at the same time do you really think that someone can decently raise a family on minimum wage? This has nothing to do with government handouts. I’ve seen parents pressure their kids to work full-time at places like McDonald’s, busting their butts during school to help support the household expenses. When it’s time for college, they have to end up dropping out to help the family. I’ve seen this time and time again, just contributing to a never-ending cycle of poverty. I don’t like how you made it sound like people that are poor always choose to be that way. This does not always have to do with work ethic. You have many poor people that work hard. Also, within the middle class, some people don’t work hard. In my experience at previous jobs, you’d have completely incompetent people put in managerial positions and making big salaries. Just simply because of their connections, and who they knew to give them those jobs and keep them those in those positions. Meanwhile, harder working and more qualified people, were always overlooked for those positions.
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
4,813
I do agree that a degree is not going to make someone work harder. But, at the same time do you really think that someone can decently raise a family on minimum wage? This has nothing to do with government handouts. I’ve seen parents pressure their kids to work full-time at places like McDonald’s, busting their butts during school to help support the household expenses. When it’s time for college, they have to end up dropping out to help the family. I’ve seen this time and time again, just contributing to a never-ending cycle of poverty. I don’t like how you made it sound like people that are poor always choose to be that way. This does not always have to do with work ethic. You have many poor people that work hard. Also, within the middle class, some people don’t work hard. In my experience at previous jobs, you’d have completely incompetent people put in managerial positions and making big salaries. Just simply because of their connections, and who they knew to give them those jobs and keep them those in those positions. Meanwhile, harder working and more qualified people, were always overlooked for those positions.

This is true. There's a lot of injustice in the world. Honestly, though, I agree the poor are definitely disadvantaged and have more to overcome to achieve success.

It's definitely a matter of perspective. Upper management usually hires those who are not the most competent, but those who think the most like them. At my company, for example, which is privately owned, the owner has difficulty contemplating the company as an abstract, separate entity from himself. He thinks whatever is good for him, is also good for the company. I have a different perspective, but I'm not the one who has the final day on hiring decisions.

Our attitudes toward issues like this are colored by personal experiences. In my case, I've known a couple Asian immigrant students who worked full time jobs at restaurants while full time students in college. This is of course at the expense of any leisure time. Compared to these immigrants, it's not that the American poor don't work hard, they just don't work hard enough to truly do enough to get themselves out of the status quo, whereas immigrants who work harder do get themselves out of poverty by outworking everybody else for however long they need to.

I myself would rather sacrifice my leisure time and do this for a limited time to get myself in a better situation after a few years, rather than be stuck with all the leisure time in the world. The former choice is what gets someone into middle class, while the latter choice to work hard, but not hard enough to make break throughout, can only result in the poor remaining poor.

I can only say that, for myself and my friends and coworkers, it's the attitude and degree of desire and willingness to sacrifice for a limited time in order to be rewarded in the future that truly differentiates who is rising and who merely maintains. I have personally gone through a period in my life where I was the starving artist without a specific goal making less than $10k a year, and once I had a goal (I met my DF and strongly wanted to be a worthy equal, not a kept woman), I worked hard for it. There was one semester I took four classes and worked three jobs and another semester where I took ten classes in order to get my degree earlier. I ended up graduating debt free instead of $180k in debt and had some incredible experiences to boot.

I am the same person, both then and now. The primary thing that changed me from a low income procrastinator who did the minimal to get by, to a respectable middle-class professional, was a change in my attitude or my mindset.
 

JoeQueen

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 3, 2020
Messages
20
We 100% need to forgive medical debt first. Medical debt is not a choice, but a necessity. And people should have access to life saving medication regardless if they can afford it.

Working in the medical field can be disheartening sometimes. I work in the pharmaceutical industry. It’s disgraceful how much some medications cost. Some medications can cost upwards of $1000 per pill (Typically drugs for HIV, cancer, and rare diseases). Some people can’t afford insurance, or their insurance sucks and they have to end up paying large amounts out-of-pocket. When I worked in retail, I had patients choosing whether to buy groceries or to get their medication. Also, skipping days in order to stretch how long they could go before getting a refill. You can’t help being sick. It really is crazy how disadvantaged some people are.
 

elizat

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 23, 2013
Messages
3,248
I do agree that a degree is not going to make someone work harder. But, at the same time do you really think that someone can decently raise a family on minimum wage? This has nothing to do with government handouts. I’ve seen parents pressure their kids to work full-time at places like McDonald’s, busting their butts during school to help support the household expenses. When it’s time for college, they have to end up dropping out to help the family. I’ve seen this time and time again, just contributing to a never-ending cycle of poverty. I don’t like how you made it sound like people that are poor always choose to be that way. This does not always have to do with work ethic. You have many poor people that work hard. Also, within the middle class, some people don’t work hard. In my experience at previous jobs, you’d have completely incompetent people put in managerial positions and making big salaries. Just simply because of their connections, and who they knew to give them those jobs and keep them those in those positions. Meanwhile, harder working and more qualified people, were always overlooked for those positions.

Unpopular view here. A minimum wage job was never intended to be a forever job. It can happen, but the path should be progression. In high school, I worked at a hotel. I started at minimum wage as a busser. I was then moved to hostess with a bump. Then was moved to the front desk and reservations with a bump. By the time I graduated high school, my part time job was paying around $10 per hour- over 20 years ago. The goal should be to work up and not stay at the baseline entry, which is exactly that- baseline entry.
 

adlgel

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
218
I have a child who graduated college last year and another child who is a junior. Over the past 6 years I have spent a lot of time on college related user forms and am now part of the Facebook parent groups for both of my children's schools. What I repeatedly see are parents who want to support their child's ability to attend their "dream" school even though financially they just can't afford it. So the child maxes out their loans and the parent takes out their own loans and/or co-signs for additional loans for the child. Just so the child can attend their "dream" school.

This inevitably results in parents and child being burdened with large amounts of loans that are difficult to pay off. While I 100% believe that an affordable college option needs to be available to all students (note that I don't believe this means every student gets the opportunity to affordably attend any school they are qualified to get into) parents also need to make either the difficult decision to say NO to their child and discourage pursuing an unaffordable school or better educate their child about the future burden of any loans the child takes out.

To the point of affordability Cerulean noted below, even though both of my kids have graduated/will graduate debt-free from out of state public universities (we footed the entire bill but they both received significant merit scholarships) they both have a dim view of their own future in terms of doing things like eventually being able to buy a house, enjoy reasonable vacations, etc. Basically they absolutely do NOT expect to be able to live the same lifestyle that we provided to them.

As others have noted, a college degree is no longer the sure-fire path to a comfortable middle-class or better lifestyle. Sure some current graduates who enter high-income fields like investment banking will eventually join the ranks of the current 1%. But those students are the minority. The rest of the graduates may still not be able to contribute to the economy to the level they want or expected to or to the level the rest of us need them to to keep the economy growing.

I think these two issues - college affordability and the return on investment of that degree - go hand in hand.


Why would we, as a nation, turn a blind eye as we cripple a large percentage of an entire generation financially? What happens when they can't consume goods as much, or buy real estate, or cars? Or can't afford education for their kids?
 
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elizat

Ideal_Rock
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Mar 23, 2013
Messages
3,248
@adlgel I am actually really thankful my parents said no to me on an expensive school. At the time, my 18 year old self thought that it was ok for what I thought was my "dream" private liberal arts school with tuition of over $30k per year. I am really grateful they sat me down and explained why it wasn't happening. I went to a much cheaper school. I don't think the other school would have made a difference at all.
 

adlgel

Shiny_Rock
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Messages
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@adlgel I am actually really thankful my parents said no to me on an expensive school. At the time, my 18 year old self thought that it was ok for what I thought was my "dream" private liberal arts school with tuition of over $30k per year. I am really grateful they sat me down and explained why it wasn't happening. I went to a much cheaper school. I don't think the other school would have made a difference at all.

@elizat my daughter had amazing SAT scores and a super high GPA. On paper she was a candidate for the most prestigious schools in the country. She applied to a bunch of private universities (some of them considered top tier) but also applied to our in-state public university as well as 2 out of state public universities. And we are fortunate to be in a position to pay in full for any school without needing financial aid.

She got outright rejected or waitlisted at all of the prestigious schools and got accepted into the Honors College at all of the public universities with great merit. This was quite a blow to her ego. She felt she deserved better than the public universities. Then she very quickly got admitted off the waitlist to one of the private universities, my alma mater in fact.

For a second I wanted to cushion the blow for her and say sure go to my alma mater for $70k per year instead of the out of state public for $30k (which is still a lot of money). But then I came to my senses and said the degree from the $70k school is absolutely NOT going to get her farther in life than the degree from the $30k school. I just couldn't fathom paying $120k more in total for that degree even though we wouldn't have had to take out loans to do so. Even if she wanted to she couldn't take out loans to pay the difference so off to the public school she went.

She spent the summer after high school graduation alternating between moping around and being excited and then cried on and off during dorm move-in. But by the next day I was getting happy texts from her about what she and her roommate were doing. And she still loves it.
 

elizat

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@adlgel that's great! I think many programs are what you make of them as long as they have comparable academics. I ended up at a very small private liberal arts school- under 2200 student body- that was ranked in the top ten for the region (broken down for the US, NE, South, etc.). I am glad I didn't take on the additional debt for what I thought was my dream school. It's been about 18 years since I graduated college. I still don't regret it. My school had a huge endowment. They still do. Tuition was actually less than $15k when I attended. It's more now, but still under $30k (just looked it up).
 

lizzydm26

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Sep 21, 2017
Messages
181
I do not support completely wiping out all student debt. I do support up to a certain limit, maybe 5-10K. Everyone does have a choice of how much debt to incur. The system needs to be revamped so that interest rates are super low, and interest does not accrue while in school.

I was lucky enough to have my undergrad degree paid for by my dad. However, he did not give me the choice to go to any expensive school I wanted. He was not willing to pay for the 50K/year school I got in to that was where I realllly realllllllly wanted to go. So I went to another school that was great ,and I am happy I did.

Same thing for my law school, except I took out loans to pay for it myself. I went to a smaller school for a third of the price of the larger one. It was not where I wanted to go at all. But I knew I didn't want to be 150K in debt right when I graduated. I had to make the decision that would not only be good for me in the moment, but that I would benefit from financially in the future. These federal loans were at 6.8% and 8.4%, with compounding interest that began to accrue immediately. I paid 50% of the original loan amount in interest, and that was even though i paid them off in 5 years. And I made a lot of sacrifices to pay them off because the interest was crazy.

I firmly believe the healthcare system needs to be completely redone and medical debt forgiven first. People do not have a choice on whether they get sick, and need care.
 

ItsMainelyYou

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Messages
1,908
I see this a little differently. I see a lot of third base discussions on perceived merit.
This isn't about dream schools for most. Most people never have a choice.
Most here had parents pay/help for their education, attended school when costs were lower, or were facilitated in their education by not being raised in abject poverty. The rare exception does not the rule make. None of us did it alone. We all had advantages and help many don't.
It's about the possibility of any school and the ruinous repercussions for even trying to improve without prior built in advantages.
It's about generationally poor people who labor under the misguided drummed in 'I alone', or the bootstrap theory. Two impossible things. These are fallacies that every other first world has rejected because they are cruel lies. The prevalent misguided belief that because the more advantaged made it, somehow they should too; if they only study the pre prescribed favored major for consumerist consumption industry at the expense of all other forms of higher learning. Or the most extreme, if they don't, well, they're lazy or don't deserve it. It's their fault the system is built this way. They're hard p- poors. Birth lottery.
America continues to punish it's own in this way. Squabbling over the few privileged who didn't educate themselves to our approval perpetuates this by ignoring the much bigger, real issue.
Higher education isn't even an option for millions whether dream school or trade school. It is about the now 30yr+ wage stagnation and the prison of not only minimum wage but not achieving living wage which encompasses up to 30% of full time working Americans and disproportionately effects women as well as minorities. That doesn't include the many 'careers' that require a college level education and still don't pay a sufficient wage to pay back to promissory note. They are punished either way.
 
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Cerulean

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Sep 13, 2019
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3,025
I see this a little differently. I see a lot of third base discussions on perceived merit.
This isn't about dream schools for most. Most people never have a choice.
Most here had parents pay/help for their education, attended school when costs were lower, or were facilitated their education by not being raised in abject poverty. The rare exception does not the rule make. None of us did it alone. We all had advantages and help many don't.
It's about the possibility of any school and the ruinous repercussions for even trying to improve without prior built in advantages.
It's about generationally poor people who labor under the misguided drummed in 'I alone', or the bootstrap theory. Two impossible things. These are fallacies that every other first world has rejected because they are cruel lies. The prevalent misguided belief that because the more advantaged made it, somehow they should too; if they only study the pre prescribed favored major for consumerist consumption industry at the expense of all other forms of higher learning. Or the most extreme, if they don't, well, they're lazy or don't deserve it. It's their fault the system is built this way. They're hard p- poors. Birth lottery.
America continues to punish it's own in this way. Squabbling over the few privileged who didn't educate themselves to our approval perpetuates this by ignoring the much bigger, real issue.
Higher education isn't even an option for millions whether dream school or trade school. It is about the now 30yr+ wage stagnation and the prison of not only minimum wage but not achieving living wage which encompasses up to 30% of full time working Americans and disproportionately effects women as well as minorities. That doesn't include the many 'careers' that require a college level education and still don't pay a sufficient wage to pay back to promissory note. They are punished either way.

Exactly. Thank you...

Even with subsidies, many cannot afford to go to school at all and forgo full-time jobs (even poorly paid jobs). It is a chronic problem.

Or, young kids who fall prey to predatory lenders and don’t even understand the implications of what they are doing. I met plenty of children of immigrants or first-time college attendees. Even at state schools, if they were lucky enough to garner scholarships which many werent, they drowned in debt. Their families didn’t have the financial literacy or financial latitude to help them at all. Some of them had illiterate parents. Yes, truly illiterate. Unfathomable to many people who frequent this forum.

It is really easy to cast judgement when you are already in a privileged position.
 
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lizzydm26

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 21, 2017
Messages
181
I see this a little differently. I see a lot of third base discussions on perceived merit.
This isn't about dream schools for most. Most people never have a choice.
Most here had parents pay/help for their education, attended school when costs were lower, or were facilitated in their education by not being raised in abject poverty. The rare exception does not the rule make. None of us did it alone. We all had advantages and help many don't.
It's about the possibility of any school and the ruinous repercussions for even trying to improve without prior built in advantages.
It's about generationally poor people who labor under the misguided drummed in 'I alone', or the bootstrap theory. Two impossible things. These are fallacies that every other first world has rejected because they are cruel lies. The prevalent misguided belief that because the more advantaged made it, somehow they should too; if they only study the pre prescribed favored major for consumerist consumption industry at the expense of all other forms of higher learning. Or the most extreme, if they don't, well, they're lazy or don't deserve it. It's their fault the system is built this way. They're hard p- poors. Birth lottery.
America continues to punish it's own in this way. Squabbling over the few privileged who didn't educate themselves to our approval perpetuates this by ignoring the much bigger, real issue.
Higher education isn't even an option for millions whether dream school or trade school. It is about the now 30yr+ wage stagnation and the prison of not only minimum wage but not achieving living wage which encompasses up to 30% of full time working Americans and disproportionately effects women as well as minorities. That doesn't include the many 'careers' that require a college level education and still don't pay a sufficient wage to pay back to promissory note. They are punished either way.

I see your point here and I agree.

Nevertheless, it is difficult for me to get behind universally wiping out student loan debt. There are people who truly need it, but there are people who really don't and should just pay back the loans they agreed to pay. On the sole issue of debt forgiveness - make it need based and I am behind it.

Clearly an overhaul of the system of higher education is needed.
 

Jambalaya

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 2, 2014
Messages
4,361
If I were a young person today and I didn't have parents who could help, I'd try to go in-state, and I'd live at home if possible. Or I'd go to a community college for the first two years, especially if it was near enough to live at home but the public university wasn't, and transfer for the last two. I think of the dorm experience as a nice extra if you can afford it, but the primary purpose of college is to get an education. I'd probably do the above and get through it by patching together some aid/merit-based scholarships, work, and loans. Even if you don't think you're at the "best" school, you can still make the most of your education by reading around your subjects and using the resources you do have to the max. (Professors, school library, etc.)

Surely many students do it this way? Especially with college costs being what they are now.

Hats off to young people who get themselves a college education when they don't have parents who can help. It really is NOT easy in this country.
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 22, 2004
Messages
37,961
We came with very little (just a few suitcases and nothing else). For the very poor, Pell Grant pays for college and you don't have to pay it back. Go to community college for 2 years, then transfer to university. There are ways but many are not aware of them. There's all sorts of merit based scholarships out there too. It's not much but it's better than nothing.
 

Snowdrop13

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
2,626
Where I live (Scotland) university tuition is sort of free for locals, although that brings its own problems. There are only a certain number of places available as the government of the day can’t afford to educate everyone and relies on overseas or English students paying fees to support it. I have a real problem with this as some kids are getting a huge leg up (free medical or law or other high paying professional degree) where others aren’t. And I’m not sure the processes to decide who gets these places are all that robust. I’d happily help my kids pay for tuition if I could make sure they got in somewhere based entirely on their merits.

Our country is storing up real problems for itself. There is a drive towards independence and I’m not sure we can make that work if we haven’t created a very educated workforce.
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
4,813
@ItsMainelyYou wage stagnation and full time working families not achieving living wages are a HUGE problem, but I see it as arising out of a combination of automation (fewer workers/jobs needed) and overpopulation*, not really because of college tuition.

*For an extreme example, look at the case of college graduates in India. For the most basic jobs, there are hundreds to thousands of well educated people competing for a mere handful of jobs. This was before the pandemic. And as far as wage stagnation, the case in the US isn't as bad as Japan.
 
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