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Children dying in hot cars - mistake or crime?

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vespergirl

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Date: 3/9/2009 10:00:55 AM
Author: elrohwen
I''m not a lawyer and have no experience with the law, so I''m hoping someone else can answer this question for me. You can hit someone with your car and it can be considered manslaughter in certain cases. I''m pretty sure that even in those cases, the person charged did not intend to hit someone. So I don''t get why the DAs in these cases can decide to not press charges because there is no intent to harm the child. It makes no sense to me! Sure, there''s no intent, but that doesn''t mean you can''t be charged with something, right?

Vesper, this article made me so unhappy
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I just don''t understand how someone could possibly leave their child in the car for 8-9 hours without any idea! And the tone of the article, making it sound like these things just happen ... ridiculous.

ETA: Also, how can they even compare forgetting to pick up your kid at daycare to leaving them in the car for 8 hours? In the first case, the kid is not with you, so I see how it''s possible to forget or get signals crossed with your spouse. In the second case, the kid is 12'' away from you in the backseat!! How the heck do you forget that your child is there?? You put the kid in the car seat yourself!
Hi everyone, I''m the OP, so I thought I would check back in. First of all, yes, I did read the entire article, start to finish. Also, as a parent of a small child who has NEVER forgotten his whereabouts for an instant, and who has never "forgotten" him in the car, I feel that I''m also qualified to weigh in on this. Maybe it''s because I''m a SAHM, but my son is my full time job. Taking care of him is my full-time job, so all of my mental energy is dedicated to his welfare. Maybe it''s easier for parents to forget about their kids if they''re used to handing them off to other caretakers, like the other parent, a grandparent, and day-care center, etc., and then they can "forget" about the kid for the rest of the day when it''s someone else''s responsibility, but it was interesting to me that none of the cases stated in the article happened to SAHMs - it happened to people who were preoccupied with jobs other than the caretaking of their children. I''m not trying to turn this into a big work/stay-at-home debate, but I do disagree with the fact that it could happen to "anybody" - because the people featured in the article seemed to value work priorities over their children''s welfare, even if subconsciously. I bet none of them forgot their Blackberries in the car.

I also wanted to agree with Elrohwen''s comments regarding intent and criminal responsibility. I agree that none of the people featured in the article seemed to want to harm their children, yet through their own criminal negligence, they did. There are lots of accidents that occur that people are still criminally responsible for, even if it was not their intention to harm anyone. What we have to look at is the result - which is a dead child, who died in excruciating pain. How come some people are more concerned with the hell that these parents have to live with than the hell, pain and death they inflicted on their children? Perhaps not intentionally, but the result was a painful, gruesome death to the the parent''s negligence. I think that the law should prosecute for the sake of the dead child. I also don''t buy the argument that these people are good parents, who deserve another chance. I live in northern VA, so all the people listed in the article are local to me, and believe me when I say that I would not trust any of them to babysit my kid.
 

tlh

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I think the lesson to be taken from all of this... is if you have your child with you... give them 100% of your attention. Don''t talk on your cell phone when you drive... baby talk to your child. Don''t let them wander around your home when you have a pool outside. (Make sure you have a 6'' door knob so your child cannot let himself outside... or a FENCE around your pool.)

Things are a lot more HECTIC than they were 10, 20, or even 30 years ago. We have TVs in the kitchen, living rooms and bedrooms. We''ll have radios on in the car, with a GPS unit talking to you, while you are on your cell phone, we have iPods, video games, and technology all around us. people can text, play games, or check their email... WHILE DRIVING. Things have changed a lot since zach morris rocked his cell phone on saved by the bell. We have to adapt, to all these distractions... remove them, and put our focus on our children.

At some point you''re going to have to ask yourself... can you get on autopilot and forget things? If this is you... don''t multi-task... be more involved with your child, so that this is not you, asking for forgiveness for allowing your child to cook to death in a locked car...
 

elrohwen

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Date: 3/9/2009 10:37:19 AM
Author: tlh
I think the lesson to be taken from all of this... is if you have your child with you... give them 100% of your attention. Don''t talk on your cell phone when you drive... baby talk to your child. Don''t let them wander around your home when you have a pool outside. (Make sure you have a 6'' door knob so your child cannot let himself outside... or a FENCE around your pool.)

Things are a lot more HECTIC than they were 10, 20, or even 30 years ago. We have TVs in the kitchen, living rooms and bedrooms. We''ll have radios on in the car, with a GPS unit talking to you, while you are on your cell phone, we have iPods, video games, and technology all around us. people can text, play games, or check their email... WHILE DRIVING. Things have changed a lot since zach morris rocked his cell phone on saved by the bell. We have to adapt, to all these distractions... remove them, and put our focus on our children.

At some point you''re going to have to ask yourself... can you get on autopilot and forget things? If this is you... don''t multi-task... be more involved with your child, so that this is not you, asking for forgiveness for allowing your child to cook to death in a locked car...
Well said, tlh.
 

hoofbeats95

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In 2007 a similar thing happened here in StL. http://www.fox2now.com/ktvi-doctorsbabydiesinhotcar-4153945,0,412826.story Both parents obviously very intelligent people. I don''t know that''s it is fair to judge the circumstances. I don''t have kids and while I can''t imagine forgetting one in a car - routines are sometimes just that - so routine that you just don''t even "think". *shrug* I am not going to say if I think it should be a crime or a mistake. But I will say the parents have to live with it forever! And quite frankly I can imagine that alone is worse than any punishment.

Last year my friend in Minnesote found a young child walking down the street carrying his stuffed down with his thumb in his mouth and crying his eyes out! He walked 2.4 miles from his house. Apparently his Dad was suppose to take him to daycare (normally his mom does) and the mom was suppose to take the daughter to the Dr and then to daycare. The dad went to work like usual without taking the boy. The mom left and took the daughter to work. The boy woke up all alone and decided to walk to "school" (the daycare) to find his sister! Thank god my friend found him! I don''t know how old was - 2 or 3 I think - and I can''t believe he had walked that far! Wow.

So it doesn''t just happen in cars. I think some people are just stressed out and overwhelmed. Stress can do crazy things! I''d actually be curious how often this kind of thing happens in Europe. Assuming they have the same car seat rules as us. I don''t know the details on that. But in general life there seems much more relaxed and stress free. (I''ve spent a lot of time in Belgium and am using that as my reference) Here in the US people are always rushing to the next "thing" they have to do. Life just seems so busy and it''s a shame. Not an excuse of course. But these are good people and I''m sure they thought it would never happen to them and may have participated in a similar conversation as this.
 

dragonfly411

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October2008 - I''m browsing that blog
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she was beautiful
 

purrfectpear

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In Europe it''s not uncommon to see toddlers and young kids in harnesses while walking with mom or dad. That way they CAN''T wander off or get lost in a crowd. I''m always surprised how often Americans come unglued over the "leashing" of kids. I think it''s great. No one is going to be traumatized just because they had a chest harness, but they might if they got lost in a big crowd or at WalMart.
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dragonfly411

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I definitely think that it should be a crime, and I''m sorry but a parent should not FORGET their child. This is not a swimming pool accident where the child wandered into the wrong area, this is not an incident of kidnap, or a child wandering away in a store and the parent not being able to find them. This is a parent loading their child into a vehicle, conciously, and FORGETTING THEM!!!! How do you FORGET YOUR CHILD????? If you are so completely absorbed in your job, and other parts of life, that you would forget your own child, then you are not in a point of your life to be a parent and you need to seriously reconsider your priorities. And I do think it''s a shame to try to consider this an accident. You don''t FORGET YOUR KIDS.
 

TravelingGal

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Date: 3/9/2009 7:10:34 AM
Author: Italiahaircolor
My personal belief is that accidents is cars can be fender benders, locking your keys inside, running out of gas, running over a garbage can....but absolutely not leaving your child locked inside a car.

Shame on anyone who thinks forgetting a child is an accident.
Well, do you think the parents who did so did it PURPOSEFULLY?
 

LtlFirecracker

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Didn''t read the whole article. But at the very least this would be considered neglect in the state I live in (that would put the parents at risk for loosing that child and the other children). Wether they were stressed or not, it is not acceptable to leave your child unsupervised. House or car. The car being hot, of course puts them in danger of heat stroke and possible death, that is child endangerment.

I went to a conference about a year ago where a big time producer (don''t remember his name but he is the founder of the starlight foundation), talked about child laws. He stated that they are some of the most lax laws out there and that in some cases, animals get more protection. I have never looked into this myself, but that just shocks me and I don''t understand it.
 

TravelingGal

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Date: 3/9/2009 10:00:55 AM
Author: elrohwen
I''m not a lawyer and have no experience with the law, so I''m hoping someone else can answer this question for me. You can hit someone with your car and it can be considered manslaughter in certain cases. I''m pretty sure that even in those cases, the person charged did not intend to hit someone. So I don''t get why the DAs in these cases can decide to not press charges because there is no intent to harm the child. It makes no sense to me! Sure, there''s no intent, but that doesn''t mean you can''t be charged with something, right? Even if it''s an accident I believe the parent should be charged because it''s gross negligence.

Vesper, this article made me so unhappy
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I just don''t understand how someone could possibly leave their child in the car for 8-9 hours without any idea! And the tone of the article, making it sound like these things just happen ... ridiculous. I understand that this could possibly happen to anyone, but I don''t think that means the person shouldn''t be charged.

ETA: Also, how can they even compare forgetting to pick up your kid at daycare to leaving them in the car for 8 hours? In the first case, the kid is not with you, so I see how it''s possible to forget or get signals crossed with your spouse. In the second case, the kid is 12'' away from you in the backseat!! How the heck do you forget that your child is there?? You put the kid in the car seat yourself!
Ever put anything down and then wonder where you put it 3 seconds later?

I''m not excusing all this. I STILL have not read the article because once it went into how the baby died, I felt sick and started tearing up. Same reason I can''t read all the PS doggie/cat posts and family dying. I just can''t bear it. This is one area I admit I''m a softie.

My kid is mouse quiet in the back seat. Sometimes I forget she''s there when I''m driving. OK, I *know* she''s there, but I forget, does that make sense?
 

Lauren8211

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IMO, no one can imagine "forgetting" their kids until they''ve forgotten them.

Normal, every day people make mistakes ALL. THE. TIME.

My mom forgot to pick me up from school one day. Just flat out forgot. I stood there waiting. What if someone had snatched me up, and I never came back? I wouldn''t want my mom criminalized.

Personally, I think we should stop wasting effort to prosecute these people who never meant any harm, and start thinking of things to put in place so this doesn''t happen ever again.

Maybe mom & dad can have an agreement that one drives the child to daycare, and the other calls to confirm the childs arrival?

This is preventable, but not criminal.
 

MonkeyPie

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Date: 3/9/2009 2:06:16 PM
Author: purrfectpear
In Europe it''s not uncommon to see toddlers and young kids in harnesses while walking with mom or dad. That way they CAN''T wander off or get lost in a crowd. I''m always surprised how often Americans come unglued over the ''leashing'' of kids. I think it''s great. No one is going to be traumatized just because they had a chest harness, but they might if they got lost in a big crowd or at WalMart.
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I totally agree! I think the harnesses are freaking awesome, and I will have one. Not to make comparisons that offend anyone, but it''s just like when you walk a dog - they begin to understand that they can''t go more than a few feet from you, and it''s something kids are smart enough to remember once they get older. I don''t think there is anything wrong with them. I''d rather have my kid "leashed" than loose him in a crowd and never forgive myself!

Oh, and leaving your baby in a hot car? CRIME A$$HOLE. (Forgive me mods if that is just too rude for you, but this is a heated topic, and we are adults here.) Any parent that can''t focus on their kid should not have kids, period. I''d like to lock all of those parents in a super hot car and not let them out. Let them see how it feels!
 

TravelingGal

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Date: 3/9/2009 2:06:16 PM
Author: purrfectpear
In Europe it''s not uncommon to see toddlers and young kids in harnesses while walking with mom or dad. That way they CAN''T wander off or get lost in a crowd. I''m always surprised how often Americans come unglued over the ''leashing'' of kids. I think it''s great. No one is going to be traumatized just because they had a chest harness, but they might if they got lost in a big crowd or at WalMart.
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I''m all for the harness. If the parent is willing to see that they can get distracted for a second (and I dare anyone to admit that they don''t), then at least they are taking precautions.

Do you think people will be horrified if I walk around with my kid duct-taped to my leg?
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TravelingGal

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Date: 3/9/2009 2:09:10 PM
Author: dragonfly411
I definitely think that it should be a crime, and I''m sorry but a parent should not FORGET their child. This is not a swimming pool accident where the child wandered into the wrong area, this is not an incident of kidnap, or a child wandering away in a store and the parent not being able to find them. This is a parent loading their child into a vehicle, conciously, and FORGETTING THEM!!!! How do you FORGET YOUR CHILD????? If you are so completely absorbed in your job, and other parts of life, that you would forget your own child, then you are not in a point of your life to be a parent and you need to seriously reconsider your priorities. And I do think it''s a shame to try to consider this an accident. You don''t FORGET YOUR KIDS.
And are you a parent? Do you know what it''s like to be so sleep deprived that you don''t know which way is up? When I was on maternity leave (thus staying at home where my only focus was to take care of my kid), I made up a bottle for her. I use born free bottles which are composed of a bottle, a valve (which must be put together) and the nipple and nipple ring. All the pieces were right in front of me and I forgot to put in the valve. I gave my daughter the bottle and it took me awhile to notice the nipple was collapsed and something was wrong. I just was mentally not there. Not because I didn''t want to, but because I simply was not functioning properly.

And the number of times I lost track of counting to 4. Four scoops of formula go into her bottle. One, two, three..was that two or three? Damn. Throw out, rinse, repeat. It''s only counting to FOUR for god''s sake!!!

Being a new parent GETS you to a point in your life where you start forgetting things!!!

Like I said, PERSONALLY I don''t think I''d forget my child in the carseat. But as a parent, I can UNDERSTAND how it happens. Whether they should be charged with a crime, which is the original question...emotionally I would say no, but the fact is a life is gone due to someone else''s neglect. Someone died because of someone else, and in this country, I think we hold that person accountable.

Vespergirl, what about the story of the woman in Adelaide Australia who was talking on her cell phone by the River - when she turned around, the jogging stroller had rolled into the river and her 5 month old baby was dead. I''m not sure, but based on the age of the child, I believe she may have been a SAHM (plus in Oz they are allowed longer maternity leaves).
 

TravelingGal

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Date: 3/9/2009 2:15:36 PM
Author: MonkeyPie

Date: 3/9/2009 2:06:16 PM
Author: purrfectpear
In Europe it''s not uncommon to see toddlers and young kids in harnesses while walking with mom or dad. That way they CAN''T wander off or get lost in a crowd. I''m always surprised how often Americans come unglued over the ''leashing'' of kids. I think it''s great. No one is going to be traumatized just because they had a chest harness, but they might if they got lost in a big crowd or at WalMart.
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I totally agree! I think the harnesses are freaking awesome, and I will have one. Not to make comparisons that offend anyone, but it''s just like when you walk a dog - they begin to understand that they can''t go more than a few feet from you, and it''s something kids are smart enough to remember once they get older. I don''t think there is anything wrong with them. I''d rather have my kid ''leashed'' than loose him in a crowd and never forgive myself!

Oh, and leaving your baby in a hot car? CRIME A$$HOLE. (Forgive me mods if that is just too rude for you, but this is a heated topic, and we are adults here.) Any parent that can''t focus on their kid should not have kids, period. I''d like to lock all of those parents in a super hot car and not let them out. Let them see how it feels!
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Spoken by someone who doesn''t have children, as a lot of these posts have.
 

tlh

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Date: 3/9/2009 2:06:16 PM
Author: purrfectpear
In Europe it''s not uncommon to see toddlers and young kids in harnesses while walking with mom or dad. That way they CAN''T wander off or get lost in a crowd. I''m always surprised how often Americans come unglued over the ''leashing'' of kids. I think it''s great. No one is going to be traumatized just because they had a chest harness, but they might if they got lost in a big crowd or at WalMart.
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I acutally saw the cutest kid leash the other day at a baseball game. It looked like a back pack kinda. It was a stuffed monkey- and the tail... was the leash. Kid seemed to love his monkey.

I think it is all in the presentation.
 

TravelingGal

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Date: 3/9/2009 2:32:26 PM
Author: tlh

Date: 3/9/2009 2:06:16 PM
Author: purrfectpear
In Europe it''s not uncommon to see toddlers and young kids in harnesses while walking with mom or dad. That way they CAN''T wander off or get lost in a crowd. I''m always surprised how often Americans come unglued over the ''leashing'' of kids. I think it''s great. No one is going to be traumatized just because they had a chest harness, but they might if they got lost in a big crowd or at WalMart.
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I acutally saw the cutest kid leash the other day at a baseball game. It looked like a back pack kinda. It was a stuffed monkey- and the tail... was the leash. Kid seemed to love his monkey.

I think it is all in the presentation.
My friend has a dog one just like that. I laugh because it looks like she''s literally walking the dog.

My other friend had a waistbelt one with two fuzzy faces, one for the kid and one for the adult. My friend looked stupid wearing it, but the kid LOVED that mommy wore a matching one.

Amelia (my daughter) HATES her hands being touched. I was the same way when I was a baby/toddler. It becomes a problem because they hate holding hands and fight all the time to get away (at least I did). I won''t be flexible on this at all when we cross streets, etc, but I am thinking the harness might have to be a possibility for us for this reason.

To this day, I generally hate holding someone''s hand.
 

Judah Gutwein

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This is so sad.

A similar story just happened in the community where I live.
An overworked Mom was carpooling a bunch of kids to school, including a neighbors child.
She left that child strapped into the 3rd row of her GMC suburban and went shopping in Home Depot.
She came out later and realized what she had done when she saw the child still strapped into the seat as she was loading her purchases into the trunk.

She panicked and ran into the lot screaming for an ambulance.

A good samaritan performed cpr on the child (whose body temp. had sky rocketed) and saved the child.

Ironically enough, the father of this toddler is a successful medical malpractice and negligence lawyer...
No criminal charges were filed and the parents continue to be friends.

This story at least has a happy ending....

In some cases, however, the child is less fortunate....
There is also a tremendous anguish on the part of the reponsible person who has to live the rest of his/her life beset by guilt..
Of course, they are still alive....


Crime or negligence, this is a sad nightmare for everyone.
 

E B

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Date: 3/9/2009 2:14:26 PM
Author: elledizzy5

Personally, I think we should stop wasting effort to prosecute these people who never meant any harm, and start thinking of things to put in place so this doesn''t happen ever again.

This is preventable, but not criminal.

I agree, elle. There''s a big difference between intentional neglect and a mistake made due to exhaustion/distraction, and losing a child (on your watch, especially) is a punishment far worse than jail time or death. TGal brought up a good point: Unless you''ve known sleep-deprivation as a new parent has (and I haven''t, yet- just a few more months!), it''s hard to say whether or not you could make a mistake like this.
 

MonkeyPie

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Date: 3/9/2009 2:31:23 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Date: 3/9/2009 2:15:36 PM

Author: MonkeyPie


Date: 3/9/2009 2:06:16 PM

Author: purrfectpear

In Europe it''s not uncommon to see toddlers and young kids in harnesses while walking with mom or dad. That way they CAN''T wander off or get lost in a crowd. I''m always surprised how often Americans come unglued over the ''leashing'' of kids. I think it''s great. No one is going to be traumatized just because they had a chest harness, but they might if they got lost in a big crowd or at WalMart.
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I totally agree! I think the harnesses are freaking awesome, and I will have one. Not to make comparisons that offend anyone, but it''s just like when you walk a dog - they begin to understand that they can''t go more than a few feet from you, and it''s something kids are smart enough to remember once they get older. I don''t think there is anything wrong with them. I''d rather have my kid ''leashed'' than loose him in a crowd and never forgive myself!


Oh, and leaving your baby in a hot car? CRIME A$$HOLE. (Forgive me mods if that is just too rude for you, but this is a heated topic, and we are adults here.) Any parent that can''t focus on their kid should not have kids, period. I''d like to lock all of those parents in a super hot car and not let them out. Let them see how it feels!

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Spoken by someone who doesn''t have children, as a lot of these posts have.

You''re right, I don''t, but while I totally understand you counting to 4 (wtf, I can''t even stay focused enough to do that now sometimes, and that''s without children! It makes me nervous for when I DO have them), but leaving your baby in a car is totally different than forgetting how many scoops you used...it just is.
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I can see getting out, and then remembering the baby and going back, but leaving them for over an hour?!
 

E B

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Date: 3/9/2009 2:06:16 PM
Author: purrfectpear
In Europe it's not uncommon to see toddlers and young kids in harnesses while walking with mom or dad. That way they CAN'T wander off or get lost in a crowd. I'm always surprised how often Americans come unglued over the 'leashing' of kids. I think it's great. No one is going to be traumatized just because they had a chest harness, but they might if they got lost in a big crowd or at WalMart.
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I was just talking to my husband about this the other day. When I mentioned a backpack leash might be a good idea for the future, he made a face and said "we won't need one of those, we'll just make sure to hold onto him." I told him he'll be whistling a different tune when his son starts to walk and decides he doesn't want to hold hands and....LOOK! A DUCK! RIGHT BY THAT GIANT POND! It only takes a few seconds, you know?
 

Lauren8211

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Date: 3/9/2009 2:39:01 PM
Author: EBree

Date: 3/9/2009 2:14:26 PM
Author: elledizzy5

Personally, I think we should stop wasting effort to prosecute these people who never meant any harm, and start thinking of things to put in place so this doesn''t happen ever again.

This is preventable, but not criminal.

I agree, elle. There''s a big difference between intentional neglect and a mistake made due to exhaustion/distraction, and losing a child (on your watch, especially) is a punishment far worse than jail time or death. TGal brought up a good point: Unless you''ve known sleep-deprivation as a new parent has (and I haven''t, yet- just a few more months!), it''s hard to say whether or not you could make a mistake like this.
I don''t have kids, so I''m not about to pretend that I know what it''s like, but I know that people make mistakes. Those people who did accidentally leave their kid in a car were probably the same people who thought it could never happen. It''s a common mentality "That could never happen to me."

Secondly, what is with the need to criminalize everything? Are these people a threat to society? Do they deserve jail time? Do I really want 40,000 dollars a year going to put these people into jail? How is that rehabilitating?You''ve just ruined another life. Try getting a job after being put in jail for manslaughter or murder.

I doubt the recidivism rate of accidental murders is very high.
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Our jails are crowded enough as it is. I think the death of your own child due to your own negligence is punishment enough.
 

TravelingGal

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Date: 3/9/2009 2:43:58 PM
Author: MonkeyPie

Date: 3/9/2009 2:31:23 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/9/2009 2:15:36 PM

Author: MonkeyPie



Date: 3/9/2009 2:06:16 PM

Author: purrfectpear

In Europe it''s not uncommon to see toddlers and young kids in harnesses while walking with mom or dad. That way they CAN''T wander off or get lost in a crowd. I''m always surprised how often Americans come unglued over the ''leashing'' of kids. I think it''s great. No one is going to be traumatized just because they had a chest harness, but they might if they got lost in a big crowd or at WalMart.
1.gif


I totally agree! I think the harnesses are freaking awesome, and I will have one. Not to make comparisons that offend anyone, but it''s just like when you walk a dog - they begin to understand that they can''t go more than a few feet from you, and it''s something kids are smart enough to remember once they get older. I don''t think there is anything wrong with them. I''d rather have my kid ''leashed'' than loose him in a crowd and never forgive myself!


Oh, and leaving your baby in a hot car? CRIME A$$HOLE. (Forgive me mods if that is just too rude for you, but this is a heated topic, and we are adults here.) Any parent that can''t focus on their kid should not have kids, period. I''d like to lock all of those parents in a super hot car and not let them out. Let them see how it feels!

20.gif
Spoken by someone who doesn''t have children, as a lot of these posts have.

You''re right, I don''t, but while I totally understand you counting to 4 (wtf, I can''t even stay focused enough to do that now sometimes, and that''s without children! It makes me nervous for when I DO have them), but leaving your baby in a car is totally different than forgetting how many scoops you used...it just is.
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I can see getting out, and then remembering the baby and going back, but leaving them for over an hour?!
An hour is a blink of an eye, Monkeypie. Hey, that rhymed...
 

MonkeyPie

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
6,059
Date: 3/9/2009 2:56:49 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Date: 3/9/2009 2:43:58 PM

Author: MonkeyPie


Date: 3/9/2009 2:31:23 PM

Author: TravelingGal


Date: 3/9/2009 2:15:36 PM


Author: MonkeyPie




Date: 3/9/2009 2:06:16 PM


Author: purrfectpear


In Europe it''s not uncommon to see toddlers and young kids in harnesses while walking with mom or dad. That way they CAN''T wander off or get lost in a crowd. I''m always surprised how often Americans come unglued over the ''leashing'' of kids. I think it''s great. No one is going to be traumatized just because they had a chest harness, but they might if they got lost in a big crowd or at WalMart.
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I totally agree! I think the harnesses are freaking awesome, and I will have one. Not to make comparisons that offend anyone, but it''s just like when you walk a dog - they begin to understand that they can''t go more than a few feet from you, and it''s something kids are smart enough to remember once they get older. I don''t think there is anything wrong with them. I''d rather have my kid ''leashed'' than loose him in a crowd and never forgive myself!



Oh, and leaving your baby in a hot car? CRIME A$$HOLE. (Forgive me mods if that is just too rude for you, but this is a heated topic, and we are adults here.) Any parent that can''t focus on their kid should not have kids, period. I''d like to lock all of those parents in a super hot car and not let them out. Let them see how it feels!


20.gif
Spoken by someone who doesn''t have children, as a lot of these posts have.


You''re right, I don''t, but while I totally understand you counting to 4 (wtf, I can''t even stay focused enough to do that now sometimes, and that''s without children! It makes me nervous for when I DO have them), but leaving your baby in a car is totally different than forgetting how many scoops you used...it just is.
7.gif



I can see getting out, and then remembering the baby and going back, but leaving them for over an hour?!
An hour is a blink of an eye, Monkeypie. Hey, that rhymed...

LOL. Is it really? Stuff like this makes me sooo nervous to be a mom, no matter how badly I want to be. Maybe I''m not cut out for it.

EBree, LOL @ the duck. It happens exactly like that too...the one second you let go of their hand to get your keys or something.
 

vespergirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
5,497
Date: 3/9/2009 2:06:16 PM
Author: purrfectpear
In Europe it''s not uncommon to see toddlers and young kids in harnesses while walking with mom or dad. That way they CAN''T wander off or get lost in a crowd. I''m always surprised how often Americans come unglued over the ''leashing'' of kids. I think it''s great. No one is going to be traumatized just because they had a chest harness, but they might if they got lost in a big crowd or at WalMart.
1.gif

I put a harness on my son when we''re in the shopping mall - he''s at the age where he thinks it''s a hoot to try to hide behind a rack of clothes. I''ve gotten some weird looks, but whatever, at least I know where my kid is :)
 

vespergirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
5,497
Date: 3/9/2009 2:16:18 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/9/2009 2:06:16 PM
Author: purrfectpear
In Europe it''s not uncommon to see toddlers and young kids in harnesses while walking with mom or dad. That way they CAN''T wander off or get lost in a crowd. I''m always surprised how often Americans come unglued over the ''leashing'' of kids. I think it''s great. No one is going to be traumatized just because they had a chest harness, but they might if they got lost in a big crowd or at WalMart.
1.gif
I''m all for the harness. If the parent is willing to see that they can get distracted for a second (and I dare anyone to admit that they don''t), then at least they are taking precautions.

Do you think people will be horrified if I walk around with my kid duct-taped to my leg?
3.gif
I need to try that when I go jogging
emteeth.gif
 

lucyandroger

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
Messages
1,557
I thought I would copy and paste this portion of the article for people that didn''t get through it all:


***

"This is a case of pure evil negligence of the worse kind . . . He deserves the death sentence."


"I wonder if this was his way of telling his wife that he didn''t really want a kid."


"He was too busy chasing after real estate commissions. This shows how morally corrupt people in real estate-related professions are."


These were readers'' online comments to The Washington Post news article of July 10, 2008, reporting the circumstances of the death of Miles Harrison''s son. These comments were typical of many others, and they are typical of what happens again and again, year after year in community after community, when these cases arise. A substantial proportion of the public reacts not merely with anger, but with frothing vitriol.


Ed Hickling believes he knows why. Hickling is a clinical psychologist from Albany, N.Y., who has studied the effects of fatal auto accidents on the drivers who survive them. He says these people are often judged with disproportionate harshness by the public, even when it was clearly an accident, and even when it was indisputably not their fault.


Humans, Hickling said, have a fundamental need to create and maintain a narrative for their lives in which the universe is not implacable and heartless, that terrible things do not happen at random, and that catastrophe can be avoided if you are vigilant and responsible.


In hyperthermia cases, he believes, the parents are demonized for much the same reasons. "We are vulnerable, but we don''t want to be reminded of that. We want to believe that the world is understandable and controllable and unthreatening, that if we follow the rules, we''ll be okay. So, when this kind of thing happens to other people, we need to put them in a different category from us. We don''t want to resemble them, and the fact that we might is too terrifying to deal with. So, they have to be monsters."


After Lyn Balfour''s acquittal, this comment appeared on the Charlottesville News Web site:


"If she had too many things on her mind then she should have kept her legs closed and not had any kids. They should lock her in a car during a hot day and see what happens."


***


 

Lauren8211

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
11,073
Date: 3/9/2009 4:10:28 PM
Author: lucyandroger

I thought I would copy and paste this portion of the article for people that didn''t get through it all:


***

''This is a case of pure evil negligence of the worse kind . . . He deserves the death sentence.''



''I wonder if this was his way of telling his wife that he didn''t really want a kid.''



''He was too busy chasing after real estate commissions. This shows how morally corrupt people in real estate-related professions are.''



These were readers'' online comments to The Washington Post news article of July 10, 2008, reporting the circumstances of the death of Miles Harrison''s son. These comments were typical of many others, and they are typical of what happens again and again, year after year in community after community, when these cases arise. A substantial proportion of the public reacts not merely with anger, but with frothing vitriol.



Ed Hickling believes he knows why. Hickling is a clinical psychologist from Albany, N.Y., who has studied the effects of fatal auto accidents on the drivers who survive them. He says these people are often judged with disproportionate harshness by the public, even when it was clearly an accident, and even when it was indisputably not their fault.



Humans, Hickling said, have a fundamental need to create and maintain a narrative for their lives in which the universe is not implacable and heartless, that terrible things do not happen at random, and that catastrophe can be avoided if you are vigilant and responsible.



In hyperthermia cases, he believes, the parents are demonized for much the same reasons. ''We are vulnerable, but we don''t want to be reminded of that. We want to believe that the world is understandable and controllable and unthreatening, that if we follow the rules, we''ll be okay. So, when this kind of thing happens to other people, we need to put them in a different category from us. We don''t want to resemble them, and the fact that we might is too terrifying to deal with. So, they have to be monsters.''



After Lyn Balfour''s acquittal, this comment appeared on the Charlottesville News Web site:



''If she had too many things on her mind then she should have kept her legs closed and not had any kids. They should lock her in a car during a hot day and see what happens.''



***



That is such a key concept that people should understand. Humans need to place blame in order to feel in control.

Same reason when people commit suicide, their loved ones blame themselves. "If I had paid more attention, then I would''ve know they were in trouble." If it''s someone''s fault, then they see it as completely preventable.

Otherwise, life is out of your control, and that is a hard pill to swallow.

Thanks for highlighting that!
 

vespergirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
5,497
Date: 3/9/2009 2:53:14 PM
Author: elledizzy5

Date: 3/9/2009 2:39:01 PM
Author: EBree


Date: 3/9/2009 2:14:26 PM
Author: elledizzy5

Personally, I think we should stop wasting effort to prosecute these people who never meant any harm, and start thinking of things to put in place so this doesn''t happen ever again.

This is preventable, but not criminal.

I agree, elle. There''s a big difference between intentional neglect and a mistake made due to exhaustion/distraction, and losing a child (on your watch, especially) is a punishment far worse than jail time or death. TGal brought up a good point: Unless you''ve known sleep-deprivation as a new parent has (and I haven''t, yet- just a few more months!), it''s hard to say whether or not you could make a mistake like this.
I don''t have kids, so I''m not about to pretend that I know what it''s like, but I know that people make mistakes. Those people who did accidentally leave their kid in a car were probably the same people who thought it could never happen. It''s a common mentality ''That could never happen to me.''

Secondly, what is with the need to criminalize everything? Are these people a threat to society? Do they deserve jail time? Do I really want 40,000 dollars a year going to put these people into jail? How is that rehabilitating?You''ve just ruined another life. Try getting a job after being put in jail for manslaughter or murder.

I doubt the recidivism rate of accidental murders is very high.
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Our jails are crowded enough as it is. I think the death of your own child due to your own negligence is punishment enough.
I see the point about incarceration. What worries me is the idea of these parents having more kids - I am so scared for the other potential children these people may have. I don''t think that they are responsible parents, and it''s terrifying to me to think that they would be allowed to parent again. In the same way that the state takes children away from poor women who neglect their children, I would like to see Lyn Balfour''s children taken from her. She is a cold, compassionless woman who is STILL multitasking like a maniac and barely paying attention to the child she has.

And in response to those who say that too many non-parents are speaking up, well, I''m a parent, and I think it''s a crime.

Also, think about how many millions of parents this HASN''T happened to. So, this whole "brain fart memory" BS theory is obviously not as common (or as real) as the one scientist in the article would like us to believe. There are plenty of busy, stressed-out, sleep-deprived parents who WOULD NEVER FORGET THEIR KIDS. These particular cases are extreme, but that makes me think that these people should not be trusted with other children.
 
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