Boy Soon

[Shay]

OK Ladies, I know you''ve got ''em... share your stories of the difference between boy soon and girl soon.

My BF and I were talking about buying the house together and the legalities of being unmarried and contracts etc to which he responded "ya but it''s not an issue babe ''cause it won''t be too long till we are married"

ARGH what does that mean? I want it to mean "I''m proposing within the year" and I swear it means that he will propose sometime before the house is paid off, ie in the next 20 years!!!!!!!!

It''s actually funny because I think sometimes we are speaking two completely different languages!

So let''s look at this irritation in a positive light, share your stories and we can crown the most patient among us and heil their tolerance.

 

[heartsonfire]

BF has been very very sweet to me lately. He is always though. But recently since I booked my flight for next week on Mon, he realized how fast time will fly and that he will miss me. I will be gone for maybe four months. I am planning to stay with my family until my birthday which is in June. I don't even want to know how much I will miss him. And I know I will be on and off crying on my 21 hours flight.

To cheer us both up, we do the things we love to do. Just simple things for example eat ice-cream, watch movies, go out and spend as much time together. He keeps mentioning that he will be coming to get me. Don't know when?!

In four months or even less? He keeps dropping hints like: "Maybe I might come sooner than you think!". Yey, hopefully girl soon. At this point I just really want to be surprised by him.

He also knows, that when I go home, I will be looking at fabrics for my wedding dress. He is sure that I will be going the custom route. He wanted to know how much it will be. He would like to chip in. I couldn't believe he said that. Awwwwwwww, how sweet of him.

Then he mentioned that there are some errunds he wants to run with me before I leave. He has taken a day off this Thu and he would like to go shopping for me and him. Also get my family something to bring home. And for the very last time he wants to go and look at the two different rings I fell inlove with and really make sure that I still adore them. And from there he will continue on his own. He will need all the details to have it perfectly custom made for me. He is soooo good to me. He's amazing.

All I told him is, that I love the idea of running those errunds with him. It will be so much fun. But the most important thing for me is that he will ask me to be his wife. I cannot wait for him to say those words to me. I will be so honored. I just want to spend the rest of my life with him. We've been through so much and I'm certain we will grow old and grey together. I also told him it's not all about the ring. I'd be happy with his choice no matter what he will give me coz it's from him and it was meant to be. I just know his taste and I love it. I'm so fortunate to have him.

Boy oh boy I feel it's girl soon... I just don't know when. (this could be my signature LOL)

But we girls do think different than boys. So I still don't know. Four months for me is not girl soon.
It's more boy soon I guess. And who knows he still might change his mind.
See it's not just us girls who keeps changing our minds (looking at all those lovely rings here at PS).
I'll keep you posted!

 

[JCJD]

About October 2003, then-bf and I talked about the engagement timeline. He said something like: I definitely want to marry you. Don''t worry, I''ll propose ''soon''. Frustrated and angry in approx. July 2004 (I don''t remember these dates actually.....), I brought that conversation up to him and made him define what he meant by "soon". He meant "within about a year or two". I thought it meant "within a month or two"..... boy soon sucks!!!!!

But he finally proposed November 2004 - yay!!

 

[moremoremore]

I think that "soon" is a subjective term...like "eye clean" LOL....

We''ll be married soon probably means you''ll be engaged within the year...easily.

 

[JCJD]

Date: 2/21/2005 2

5:19 PM
Author: moremoremore
I think that 'soon' is a subjective term...like 'eye clean' LOL....


We'll be married soon probably means you'll be engaged within the year...easily.

He's been saying "We'll be married soon" for 3 years though!!! LOL!!!

 

[Erin]

We shopped for and bought a ring - then had the diamond put into a setting I liked.

It''s been 10 months.

Do I win a prize?

 

[heartsonfire]

Erin, you win the special prize for patience!!! But the ultimate prize will be your lovely ring! It will happen!

 

[blueroses]

Erin totally wins, because though my wait is long, there is no ring to torture me.

Um....we''ve been together since 10/96. Started talking about getting engaged last New Years (1/04) which was the first time he said "soon." We discussed not waiting "another season," which meant to me that we''d be engaged by the Spring.

In March (hey, that''s Spring!!) we revisited the conversation. I said, hey look, I don''t want to keep harassing you about whenwhenwhen, and here we are getting towards when I thought we''d be getting engaged and it hasn''t happened. So YOU tell ME what YOUR deadline is--i.e. give yourself an ultimatum that''s your own, not from me. He says, oh gosh, I don''t know, it will be soon! I say, what is soon? Six months? He says no, of course not that long (this is 11 months ago!!!), and I say, well then you tell me what YOU think is reasonable. He says my birthday. Which was June 21. SO I say my birthday? 3 months from now? He says yes. I say ok, that''s great, I''m not going to bug you anymore. I guess I did bug him a LITTLE, but it was only like, hey, that''s in 3 weeks, you''re not going to let me down are you

, to which I''d hear, of course not baby. In these 3 months we started ring-browsing and getting to know what we liked. Long story boring, the birthday came and went. He gave me this (see below) for my b-day. Which is gorgeous. But doesn''t quite fit on my ring finger. I was very upset, needless to say.

Didn''t quite know what to do about all of this--thought that it would still happen over the summer. (Friends joked--are you sure he meant THIS birthday?? But as it was my 30th, it had seemed pretty reasonable, and it was no secret that I was discouraged.) We were long distance at that point, so EVERY time we were together it was expected.....and didn''t happen...and I felt crushed and rejected. The constant here is that he has always said it''s ME, I''m the one, there is no IF, it''s only WHEN, but he just can''t pinpoint what''s holding him back--can''t really say what''s stopping him but yes, it will happen.

By September when we went to the 1st of 3 weddings I was in in the fall, I FREAKED OUT on him. HUGE. Big time. We''d tried on some rings in this cute little antique shop and things had seemed like they were really going to happn (I caught the bouquet...he was talking about OUR wedding, etc.) And nothing. I''ve often talked about how a proposal doesn''t need a ring--all I need is the question, you could give me a bread-tie, etc.. We''re having pizza, have been chatting about/sketching rings, and this convo. comes up and he tosses the paper napkinring across the table and says will this suffice for now? And I''m PISSED. I can have the question with or without a "placeholder" but I can''t have a "placeholder" without a freaking question!!! It comes out that all he''s been waiting for is the "perfect time" and all of my obsession has kind of precluded that happening. We make up, spend time at the airport looking at the calendar for what dates in 2005 would be good for a wedding, etc. He feels really good about knowing what I like, etc....So I''m hopeful.

Bad idea. So of course, I think maybe at the next wedding (2 weeks later) even though I don''t want to detract from the bride or anything. It''s bf''s and my first time back in Atlanta together since we started dating 8 years before, and what better time/place than the scene of the crime so to speak. By this time no one has any tact and is readily coming up to him at weddings, parties, dinners, saying, So. When are you proposing? Marry this girl! Marry her!!

Mid November I discover PS (thank GOD) but by Thanksgiving I am feeling like a codependent chump because I have totally not followed through on any of my vague threats of not waiting around for any more delays if it hasn''t happend by [fill in the wedding/event]--and also because I have no substantive answer for why it hasn''t happnend--and neither does he. There''s no doubt that he loves me, wants to marry me, etc....is he just unable to ACT?? And I inform him that after all these years, I am NOT interested in attending Thanksgiving as his *girlfriend* again. Basically meaning, yo, we''d better be engaged, this horsesh!t has been going on for almost 11 months now, hello!!! (I tell him this almost a month beforehand.) And he seems COOL with it! He starts going to B&M stores by himself, he has a file of all the rings we like that he carries with him, we''ve shopped and talked and blahblahblah, I think we''re on the same page. Thankgiving week is great, romantic, broadway shows, dinners......and no proposal. I totally wuss out on my threat to not go as anything but his fiancee, because hey, I like turkey. And I''m a big wussy. Somehow that week still ends up being ok--saw the Ritani endless love, Tiffany legacy, some michael B and JB Star rings in person together--and I am disappointed, but realize that my quasi-ultimatum was silly and if I''m not taking them seriously of course he''s not either, and I can''t push him or something. I continue to tell him how beyond my wit''s end I am and how I don''t think I can hold out much longer, but that''s not a thread, that''s just my own mental health. I REALLY thought it might happen over Thanksgiving. Alas.

Well, my dad''s medical disaster (which some of you will remember) was on December 7. So that kind of swooped in and took over in terms of any need to discuss and analyze US. I flew home, my BF was AMAZING helping out with my dad and the family and getting Christmas together. My dad''s illness let US kind of go to the back burner for a while, but I thought that this might be the reality check he needed or something? Lots of noise from him about how 2005 is a new year and he''s in a rut and has got to start making things happen, etc. And then he plans a romantic New Year''s eve, so......I try really hard to not get my hopes up, but of course they are and it doesn''t happen. And I''m crushed, again.

A few days later we took a mini-road trip to go see the Daniel K stuff in person. AS we''re walking towards the store he casually mentions that oh yeah, his mom said something about family diamonds in a safe deposit box. Um ok, you tell me this NOW? When we''ve been looking at rings and I''ve been getting more and more obsessed since around April??? So this is kind of exciting and we start talking about seeing what "mystery" stones are there (I''d been an asscher-hound until then) and going the custom route and Leon!!, and, ooh, this is going to be exciting. We still went inside and drooled all over the Daniel K, anyway. We also had a bit of a meltdown in the car later as it seems the way he feels pushed by me has made him feel like there are "red flags" or something. (He immediately takes this back, but the bottom line is that I''m getting nowhere fast by pushing and obsessing and e-mailing rings....he is a GUY and my perceived "pushing" is perhaps making the wait even LONGER?)

And.....? There''s not anything specifically new. As some of you remember, all of this coincides with the decision to leave NY for CA partly-due to my dad''s illness, and all of the moving/relocating-associated freakouts have taken priority over the WHENWHENWHEN issue. At least outloud--I''m still on PS and it''s still a real issue.

But the bottom line is that I still think ALL OF THIS falls under his heading of soon!!! He regrets setting out timelines that he hasn''t fulfilled, but I think the almost 14 months since the conversation started still feels "soon" to him.

At this point I really am beginning to feel like giving up. I feel like I need communication from him on two general fronts: Why/why not, and when. i.e. why hasn''t it happened yet--what needs to happen for him to be ready and what is he waiting for? I feel like I''d be ok with continuing to wait if I had that information--if I at least understood what stood in his way (he insists to the walls that it''s nothing he can name and it''s certainly not about me/us.) Maybe I''m asking for trouble with the "when" since all previous "whens" have been a bust. But I feel that I deserve some reasonable parameters so that I can attempt to relax.

I have tried to have this conversation with him and he says great, let''s talk. But then it''s me talking and asking and him answering or listening, and I don''t want that. If this goes on much longer--with me feeling like he just WON''T engage in the conversation--I''m asking for a chat, not a ring!!--then I think I may have to tell him I need a break from us. I have no doubt in our love for each other and no doubt that he wants to marry me. He is just SO motivationally-challenged? Or stubborn? I DON''T know!! And he HATES that he''s hurting me and he constantly tells me that he understands how I feel--but I don''t even want understanding anymore, I want communication or action or both! GGAAAHHHH!!!

Thanks for the way-too-long rant, LIW.

Here ends the lesson on boy-soon vs. girl-soon. The word of the psycho. Thanks be to Leonid.

 

[fountainfairfax]

Oh, BlueRoses, that is so totally frustrating, agravating and every other "ing" word I can imagine! And it''s totally unfair! When he said he the whole thing about "red flags" that was probably as close to being honest as he''s going to get. My ex told me that as soon as I began to press him about getting engaged he saw it as a huge flaw in my personality and it made him question me as person! And that was after being together 6 years (living together for 4 years of that with a shared checking account and all the other couplish things.) We did eventually marry but of course now I wonder if his heart was ever really into it..

I also have a male friend who was in a relationship that he was very into while the whole engagement/wedding/marriage topic was abstract (e.g. just talk or window shopping for rings) but when she started looking for some action or progression forward he freaked & ended it.

I honestly believe that when the subject of engagement and marriage is brought up, if there isn''t action in girl-soon time then we each have to decide for ourselves if we can live with no action, no comments, no pushing or if its time to just move on. Ultimatums usually get forced reactions and the end result is rarely good, even if we think we''re getting what we want. I also think that sometimes space & a little time puts things in perspective for both parties. None of us wants the title of "eternal girlfriend" and we all deserve better.

 

[icekid]

blueroses- honestly, i don''t know how you do it. 10 YEARS! that is a damn long time. i would try to stay away from asking him about WHEN, and stick with WHY he can''t seem to get it together to ask you??? it seems like he feels like you are more concerned with the ring, than the marriage? which is obviously not true. grrrrr boys. i think i might have bailed already if i was in your position (of course i say that, but when it comes to the man you love...) after 10 years if you can''t ask me, then.....

you definitely deserve some answers.

maybe i''m just lucky... my boy is so far removed from commitment phobic. we''ve pretty much decided when to get married. he knows i am obsessed with the ring haha, and luckily he humors me that one. but he knows i would marry him without any ring at all. and we''ve been together a faaaar shorter time- only now pushing a year and a half.

fountainfairfax- OMIGOD, i can''t believe your bf would call it a "personality flaw" when you wanted to get engaged after 6 years. ack... we sure put up with a lot, don''t we ladies?!?!

 

[goldengirl]

Well, I don''t talk much about the ring because I don''t want that to be a pressured issue. Instead I''m focusing more on when we''re getting married. (Which kinda subtly raises the ring issue, without actually TALKING about the ring.) I was hoping for Sept 05... November 04, he said there was an "80% chance" we''d be married by then. So I was thinking he was on the same page as me.

Then we talked about it, he admitted to feeling too much pressure, would it be okay if we held off just a year? Okay, so I''ve convinced myself Sept 06 is ok.

Now we are looking at maybe having to push it back to 07 or ......08!!!! It''s not even Sept 05 yet, when there was an "80% chance" of us being married by then, and we''re looking at 07/08??? AAACCCKKK!!!

(It all depends on how things play out at his new job... ladies pray he''s fabulous and makes a ton of money!!)

 

[KimberJEB]

Ok, 1st Blueroses...we have the same Birthday!!! I am 7 years younger, but the same day So happy um, 3/4 B-day today (ok that was dumb, but I have been very "date-focused" today, lol.

Anyway, let me see. Daniel and I started dating when I was 16, he was 17. That was 6 years, 11 months ago today (as I said, very date-focused today). On our FOURTH anniversary, in 2002, I decided to bring up the subject of "our future". We were never really focused on it, heading that way, but not discussing it. But, it was our senior year of college and I kind of wanted to see what was going on. If he wasn''t sure about us, just not ready, what? So he said that he knew he loved me and wanted to marry me, but just wasn''t ready. But he was SURE that we would be engaged by our 5th anniversary. He promised. At that point I wanted a LONG engagement. I felt like an engagement would be a fun time, why rush it. But I was tired of being a "girlfriend".

We graduated college August 2 that year, and honestly I had hoped it would happen then. I mean that is a pretty good day to propose, don''t you think? Yeah, well...no. So I started law school, and for the 1st tiem we lived in different towns - only 2 hours apart, but still. At that point we had been together 4.5 years. So in October his brother and HIS GF of 2 years got engaged. I kind of - well, not kind of - FREAKED. How could James know that he loved her and wanted to marry her, but Daniel not want to marry me yet? Turned out she was pregnant, but that didn''t make it better, really. Because then his family changed. All of a sudden, Christine was FAMILY and I was, well...not. It is not allowed for his brothers child (now almost 2) to call me aunt. B/c I am not yet. She is invited to things I am not. She gets about 7x the Christmas gifts I do, and her own family birthday party. Meanwhile, I had always felt like his family WAS my family, and his parents were extra parents to me. They sure helped raise me. So I continued freaking. I was also living with his sister at the time, which didn''t help matters. I kind of becamse a raging bitch. I am not proud of it, but I was completely stressed out with law school, the family that I had loved kind of turned on me (well, Kimberly, since Daniel is best man so he can''t sit with you, you''ll have to sit at the back of the church with the rest of the non-family), and there was NO progress on what we were going to do. Understandably he said he wasn''t sure anymore. So our 5th anniversary came and went. Lots of tears, etc.

Things started gettting better the next year. I became normal again, and kind of let the subject drop. He started talking to me about marriage, and said he wanted to marry me before I finsihed law school (for the nameo n the diploma). That was to have been this spring, so I was expecting a proposal in late 2003, early 2004. I would bring it up, he''d say soon. I asked what that meant, he said before the end of the year (2004). Blah, blah. Every holiday and event and "date" and ANYTHING for years now I was expecting it. In May we decided to buy a house, and I started hoping that our closing (Sept) would be it. That would be romantic, right? Then in August 2004 I found a Kay Jewelers card in his wallet (ok, I know, KAY but, still...it was a postitive sign). So I got all excited, told some friends, etc. Time kept passing. We closed on the house. I decided in my head, that Nov 1 was the deadline. I couldn''t handle another holiday season wiht people asking why we werent engaged, when would we be engaged, etc. Of course, Nov 1 came and went and I stuck around.
In Nov (I think) he told me that he was stressed about picking rings, so I started looking. Found this site. Found info on stones. He still said end of the year. Then we started getting money stressed, so I found the Asha, and decided I could get a good sim, and a great setting, and we could use the money for the ring to get out of debt. So I researched that, got quotes, sent him links. thought it would be soon.

It is now 4 weeks before our 7th anniversary, 2 years after the original "deadline" he set. I know he hasn''t ordered it. He acts interested, but doesn''t do anything. I have told him for years I don''t care about the ring, I care about our future (all though after all this waiting I want a ring too). but sometimes I think that we won''t get there until I order it, pay for it out of his checking account (I pay all bills with his account) and hand it to him. But I WON"T DO THAT!!!

I know that my pushing has slowed it down. He feels like, I think, he can''t respond to my pushing, and to punish me for pushing he will wait longer (I doubt he thinks in those terms, but that is what I feel like happens) but it is VERY hard not to push. It is hard to know that in 2 weeks my cousin is getting married and I am still a girlfriend. It is hard to know that my sorority little sister is getting married this summer, and I DONT WANT TO GO AS A GIRLFRIEND. Two of my sisters, 1 cousin, and 2 of his sisters are VERY close to engagement. I want to be happy for them when it happens, but I think I am just going ot be jealous. For God''s sake, we have been together 2-3x as long as them. We have a house, share abnk accounts and dogs. So why am I in the same category of relationship as my baby sis and her BF of 6 months?

Ok, yeah I am still a bit bitter about the situation. I keep hoping you graduates are right and when it happens I will forget all this, lol.
Kimberly

 

[jlc0604]

My boyfriend and I have been together almost three years (this May), living together since October. We''ll both be 28 this year. We''ve been to lots of weddings together. We have several friends now getting engaged that started dating WAY after us. I know I shouldn''t compare, but it does bother me a little bit.

I have never been in a hurry to get married, and was somewhat of a committment-phobe for awhile. The earlier days of our relationship were filled with drama, and we''ve done a lot of growing and maturing together in the past three years. Our relationship progressed slowly but eventually I got to the point where I knew this was who I wanted to be with, and he felt the same.

After I decided he was the one, I was ready to move in with him. We weren''t ready to marry yet, financially and emotionally, but were ready to take the next step. So October 2004 we moved in together, and things have gone amazingly well for the most part since.

We didn''t move in togehter to ''test'' the relationship - we already knew we wanted to marry eventually, but weren''t ready yet. He is working on a degree, taking classes at night and working full time during the days. I have some credit card debt that I''ve been working to pay down. We want to accomplish those goals before we spend money on the ring and the wedding. But for some reason, after we moved in together, I sort of became obsessed with getting enaged (this is also when I found pricescope, which I think has worsened the problem!!!).

I started talking about it more in October 2004, and he started feeling pressure. Every time another friend would get engaged, I''d get sort of down. And I''d ask when we would get engaged. And his response was always the same - he''ll propose after he finishes his degree (which will be the end of this summer, 2005). And that makes sense to me, rationally - we have to get certain things in order before we get engaged. But deep inside there is still this impatient, irrational part that wants it ASAP!! I took so much time making sure I was ready, and he was the one, and now that I know, I''m ready to progress!!

After reading everyone''s stories here, of course I wonder how long he''ll take. He says it won''t be long. But I know it''ll at least be till fall, and more likely not till winter or next year. Because he has to save up money as well. So who knows.....I just try not to think about it. What I learned from a few discussions we''ve had is that if I bring it up all the time, it makes him less enthused about it. I know that he wants it, and I just have to respect his space.

I think a lot of guys procrastinate. Most guys just don''t feel the same excitment girls do about weddings - so they can bear to wait awhile to propose. And since proposing for many guys requires a large amount of research and work, not to mention money, why not put it off a little while? Sort of like how they procrastinate taking the trash out - they wait for us to remind them three times before actually getting it done. Except with this we can''t remind them because then we''ll be seen as nagging! We just can''t win

 

[blueroses]

Shoot!! I had written a LONG reply and my browser did something very odd when I hit submit and the whole thing went away.

Gist of what I wrote?

I think my situation looks a lot more dire when I see it written in black and white. We have been together 8.5 years, but have only been in this pre-engagement limbo for just over a year--NEITHER one of us was ready before the holdidays last year, for a variety of reasons. That said, it still sucks. We're going to be 31/32 this year, and even though it took us over 7 years to get to a place where we were ready to move forward, I am R-E-A-D-Y.

FountainFairfax, wow, I'm sorry you had to go through that with your ex! When my boyfriend made the red-flag comment, I just kind of said wow, maybe that's the first honest thing you've said to me about this whole process and I need to stop fooling myself. He said NO, that wasn't the case and was just pushing back against the pressure/pushing he's feeling from me. And it sucks, because--as Kimberly said--I'm afraid that the more I push (or anything that he perceives as pushing) the longer the wait will be. It's like, I think maybe in his head even TALKING about it is now the same as nagging/pushing. He's a stubborn guy by nature, and I know I'm not helping things--but neither is he!

I'm not really worried about the ring. I'd be happy with a CZ from walmart or a sharpie line around my finger! What I want is the commitment and a promise--the readiness and excitement from him to start our lives together the way we've always talked about.

Kimberly, we also share our b-day with Prince William, and my bf's first cousin (and the summer solstice!!!) I hear you--of the 3 weddings we had in the fall, the we'd been together 2x, 3x, and 7x(!) longer than the couples!! It does get old just being "the girlfriend." I think my family is better with it than his, but he still isn't "Uncle" to my nephews either.

Anyway, girls thanks for the support. This is sort of a few wrinkle in terms of the communication issue, and we'll just see. I'm really not even bugging him about a ring or a proposal anymore, I just want him to be straight with me about where he is. Like in Erin's situation, he still very readily talks about our wedding and our kids, but I think there's just some denial on his part about getting older.

GG, I've tried the same approach of late--asking for his thoughts on marriage/wedding vs. engagement. (And I am SO sorry about Kyle's new adjusted timeline!!!?? Maybe he's faking you out?) I wasn't too pleased with my bf's answer either, as he thought "a couple years" from now for our wedding was about right. There was a time when we were looking at Sep. 05, and now he's saying 2007?? My hope is that it will be mid-2006 because I would REALLY like to be married by 32--not because of some vision of what age I need to be, but because of how old we've always talked about being for kids. Time is flying, and I think that fundamentally that may be the issue: he's afraid to grow up.

 

[KimberJEB]

Blueroses - I agree about the situation looking more dire in black and white. I finished typing out my big long story, and almost started crying. And then he asked what was wrong, but I felt like if I answered it would just be another "discussion" and those don''t tend to be positive these days...

Every comment is pushing. He thinks I am obsessed with rings, Ok, maybe. LOL. ALL of our friends are married. And the aunt to the niece thing...it''s just, she will never in her life NOT know me. She was born when we had been together 5 years...Her mom has known me as long as she has known her husband, lol. I feel like I deserve "aunt". But technicalities are all that matter.

I don''t know. My cousin dated a girl for 5 years. She wanted to get married, he wasn''t ready. She moved to Atlanta and they broke up. They stayed in contact, she came to visit him on occasion, and they are getting married in 2 weeks. I sometimes think that she was smarter. I hang on for dear life, determined that at some point he will decide to do it. But I wonder if maybe Penny was right. I should leave, or at least make myself less available. Let him miss me. But that can always backfire, and I am not a good game player.

I swear to y''all though. If I finish law school (december 05) and he has not proposed yet...I AM going to go somewhere else. I hate my area of teh world and would love to live elsewhere. So, if he hasn''t made a decision by then...I am going to make one myself. On the other hand, the very thought of 10 more months without being proposed to is about to make me cry. Jeez, I need a life. Or something.

 

[Shay]

Kimber I''m so sorry. Your situation sounds so hurtful, I hope it works out.

My bf and I have been friends for about 10 years~! We got together a year and a half ago, moved in together a year ago and just bought a house together. I think after the long friendship the relationship moved along quickly. Although now we''ve reached a stop point in that momentum. We spoke about marriage at his sisters wedding and I know he wants to marry me. Problem is he says he doesn''t feel old enough and he wants to make sure that he''s prepared to be a good husband to me.

Which is lovely and I can respect that. But it still hurts being introduced as "girlfriend" when I feel like so much more.

 

[appletini]

I think we all deserve the patience award!

blueroses: I have the same necklace, my ex gave it to me for v-day a few years ago, but I still wear it sometimes.

 

[Erin]

Blueroses - I know your situation almost inside and out (since the time you''ve decided for yourself that you are ready) because I think somehow our men have been cut from the same cloth. I read your post and almost wanted to cry for how much I understand every last word you said and why you chose the words you did.

I would love a man''s perspective on this.

Why do you think the more we say one word that infers the idea of marriage the more they retaliate with pushing it off?
Why do you think some men are just as anxious as ''girls'' for this next phase in life and others (like ours) are fighting it?
If guys are willing to spend the rest of their lives with us, what''s so scary about marriage?
Did our men pass math in gradeschool?
What about a 31 year old man is ''not ready'' for marriage?

 

[blue_chica]

All I can think of as I read these stories is what a whiner I was - freaking out after only several months of dangling. I feel so lucky I didn''t have to go through what some of you have, I really don''t think I''d be able to handle it. Blueroses, Shay, Erin, FountainFairfax, GG, Kimber, JLC...you are all SO STRONG. And patient. Honestly, you deserve better than what you''re going through.

To me engagement always seemed like something you decide together. Hmm...do we love each other enough to envision being together forever? Yes? Get engaged. No? Break-up. I have always been just as happy alone (usually happier ) than I have being with someone, so I figure if it isn''t long term then why torture yourself? After all a relationship takes a lot of work and time, and is a big investment. So I''ve never understood the commitment-phobe stereotype guys have going. I mean, Geez, if you love being with someone and they make you happy, what exactly is so terrible about committing to them?

I think there''s a lot to be said for being unavailable. I think as long as a guy is getting what he wants (your companionship, time, sex, etc), while not giving you what you want (commitment, the freedom to securely plan a future together, the status of fiancee/wife) there''s no incentive. Some guys do want the commitment, the status, etc (I know mine did), and those are the ones that propose girl-soon. The rest, well, I think you have to barter with them...make them understand that they won''t have you if they don''t choose you. All of this is easier said than done...but it does seem to work. I have several friends who were kept waiting a long, long time, definately comparable to some of you here, and after moving out/taking time/moving away three got engaged within the year, and the other broke up and met her now husband. Incidentally, they all warned me about moving in with J prior to engagement, and thus I knew there was a firm limit on how long I''d wait...having seen the situation in action.

I know it''s hard. Is it that you''re afraid of losing the relationship altogether if you stick to the ultimatums (which, BTW, has very negative connotations, but really is just short-hand for knowing what you want and sticking to it)? How about looking at it that if you don''t end up with your current beau after sticking to your desire for a commitment, then what have you lost? Nothing but a long, protracted session of heartache.

I probably shouldn''t have such opinionated views on this, having not been really through it myself, I hope I haven''t offended anyone. My intention was just to share results I''ve seen in person, and hopefully to reinforce you if you make a choice for yourself. You don''t have to feel demanding or guilty about choosing you and your needs/desires. After all, that''s what they other half of these relationships are already doing.

BTW - Kimber, holy CRAP your BF''s family is treating you so badly. I would be very uncomfortable around them, your status should have nothing to do with how they regard you.

Blueroses, I didn''t know about your dad''s illness. I''m very sorry to hear that''s why you moved back to CA.

 

[blue_chica]

Erin: I thought your questions were interesting, so I sent them out to about 15 of my guy friends. I''ll post their answers as I get them.

First one from a guy who''s in his early 30s and frankly undatable, IMO, but the answers are still answers.

My response to those questions for your friend can best be summarized by
her looking at the questions in reverse and considering life and
relationships in a less intrusive self-centered manner. Such as.

1. Why would you need to infer marriage, when its right its right. Pushing
or pulling someone to make a decision they have not decided on, came up with
on their own, or want to consider presently only leads to unwanted and
un-needed tension and ultimately resistance and separation to some degree.

2. On the next phase in life question. Who defines a phase in life and
who''s to say it the same for everyone. Don''t be so self-centered, stop
applying your view of the way the world should work to others. Life is and
individual event and the "phase" will be determined by that person not
anyone else. So if you think they are not in your phase or should be in
other, get over it everyone is different.

3. On the rest of your life question, turn it around. If a women is
willing to spend the rest of her life with a man why not wait until he is
ready, or better yet what does marriage get you that you do not have right
now. Again I put this in the self-center category. Unless your looking for
a tax deduction and a name change, marriage and the existing relationship
should almost be the same. One compliments the other and will come in time
if its right.

4. On the 31 year old question. People have different goals and priorities
in life, not all, believe it or not, are what you believe them to be. Again
I apply the self-centered point of view here. If you continue to think
everyone thinks like you and that there is a set of rules and guidelines on
when and where to get married you will fail to get what you want. I am 33
and would like to be married someday, but have some personal goals and
priorities to achieve first. I would hope the women who sticks by me while
I achieve those goals will ultimately be my wife. This is not to say that
women is not one of the most important things in my life, its just saying
before I can be everything I want to be to her, I need to hit a certain
plateau or balance in my life.

 

[allycat0303]

Hey everyone!

I can''t believe how terrible this is. I wouldn''t be able to handle it if I was in your situations. I would feel the need to do something really horrible to my boyfriend. You girls are saints for holding back.

Kimber: I can''t believe his family. I really can''t. The fact that you''ve been his girlfriend for forever, should be foremost in their minds. And to make you feel bad next to his brother''s wife is really hurtful. Hugs. Keep your deadline. That''s what I would do. My boyfriend''s neice always calls me her aunt. I correct her all the time. Then she says when can I call you my aunt for real. I wonder if my boyfriend''s mom is coaching her because she''s really intent on this. Maybe its her non-intrusive way of pressuring me.

Blueroses: What can I say? Except hugs. I know things will work out. I feel like I''ve been with you through most of these events. The worst is that a lot of people around you are getting married. Your time will come. And don''t settle for the sharpie line

. You deserve so much more then that.

 

[blueroses]

BlueChica, I'm glad you posted the caveat that he was "undatable" before I read those!! Interesting! See, it's totally apples and oranges to have that perspective from someone who genuinely sees nothing but tax status/name change as the difference once you're married, so I have to take all those with a grain of salt. It's good to have a different view anyway, though. I think my bf's views (if not timing) on marriage are more traditional and in line with my own (vs. your guy friend) so I find the "self-centered" angle kind of odd! I would hope it's more "US" centered--what stage are WE in vs. I/ME. Anyway, Thanks for casting a net out there to get a response. And thank you re: my dad too. He's actually like 95% recovered now, but I moved back to work for him b/c he'd lost so much time from his business (works for himself) and help out in that way.

Erin: ((((HUGS))))!!!!!!! I am so happy (well not happy--gratified?) to know you know what I mean and vice versa. Sad that we both have to suffer through it. I indeed think our boys are cut from the same metrosexual-pastel-fly-button-downed-cloth!!!. If you'd asked me when he and I were KimberJeb's age (granted, we were a new couple then, not with 7 years together) I would NEVER have believed we'd still be just bf/gf by our 30s.....that's where this board is such a godsend to not feel alone, no matter whether we're 21 or 37.

Kimber, (((HUGS))) to you too!! I think some families are just very black and white about the family thing. I've gone on so many vacations with them, been the only non-family member at holidays and events and yet....every year there's zero mention of me in their Christmas letter, silly little things like that. It's like an honorary member of the family but *not really.* My bf and I actually started dating two months before my sister and her husband.....who will have been married 6 years this July and have two kids!! I am SO at peace with the whole different-timelines thing, b/c my bf and my BIL could not be more different (though they're only 5 months apart) and yet it just hurts sometimes that they/we don't share the same status. It sure gives me insight into how some of my gay friends feel about their partners/bfs not being included in events/weddings etc.....like, a long term relationship and a wedding invite still comes "and guest."

Apple, Shay, HOF, jlc, GG.....I don't even think it matters whether the relationship has been 1 year or 9--when you're ready, you're ready, and boy-soon is frustrating no matter when it happens!!

Kimberly, I really hope that you won't have to follow through on the law school graduation timeline break--I hope it happens by then. As BlueChica said, ultimatums sound so icky, but it's more about what YOU need to have happen for you/choose to do vs. what THEY do by a timeline. Like it's a decision for YOU vs. an ultimatum for THEM?

God, I'm longwinded. One more thing: One of the weddings I was in last year resulted from a met ultimatum. My friend told her bf one Christmas that she was ready when he was, just to put it out there. The FOLLOWING Christmas when nothing had happened, she said, ok, you've known I was ready for a year now. If it doesn't happen by the summer, then in my own best interests, I am done and have to move on. He said summer? (thinking June 21) and she said, OH, for me summer means June 1!! He proposed on May 31. Of course. I mean, during this time, they'd picked out a ring and she knew he had it, but as so many of you in that position know, that's not the end of it. So he proposed on THE LAST day. And he said to me during their engagement that he was SO grateful she'd done that and that if she hadn't, he wouldn't be sitting there that day as happy as he was to be starting their lives. (Granted, this is a very centered guy who's had a healthy amount of therapy and is in touch with himself now, but he didn't use to be.) But he is probably the minority--I'm afraid most guys aren't as responsive to that.

I am very seriously considering a "break" or hiatus. I worry that he may in fact need to miss me, need to WANT this as much as I do. We'll see what happens

Have a great day, gals and thanks for all of the insight and support.


(eta, thanks Alley!! I feel like you've been there too--along with a lot of the LIW!! ((HUGS)) back at you!)

 

[wcitygirl]

Oooh! I hope more boy responses keep coming Blue Chica!!! Those are really interesting! Although, sort of torture since there''s nothing we can do anyway, so? (apparently?)

I''m sorry you all have had to wait SO LONG. Here I feel bad complaining -- you girls have DEFINITELY won the right to complain!

Blue Roses -- I would never advocate playing games, but I don''t think it hurts to let a guy miss you. I would say it''s more of a "focusing on self" and self improvement and if you have time to see him, great, if not, well, you can see him another time? I did that NO, I''m not engaged, but I think it did make him take what I was saying more seriously. I told him I was "giving him time to think" and that I was "uncomfortable with the relationship" or something like that. And then I called every person I had EVER talked to and rekindled a friendship. That way it wasn''t playing games -- I was genuinely busy. He started pouting immediately. But, I got my conversation out of it.

Have you read Closing the Deal? They advocate leaving, but only under extreme circumstances. You should read the book -- most of it is common sense, but there were a few effective strategies. (I would get it from the library.)

Kimber -- I am so sorry how out of the family you feel. I understand how tough that can be. When my bf went to Afghanistan, I was scared that he was going to be killed and everyone would forget about how upset I would be and how much I played a part in his life since I wasn''t "family." Luckily, it was never an issue.... When my bf''s cousin unexpectedly died over christmas, the stupid priest refused to acknowledge his gf''s existence and that she might need consolation too. Luckily, bf''s aunt thought that was ridiculous and wanted to include her in everything, including talking to a priest. I wish people would realize how important significant others are!

I hate getting wedding invites with my parents names and my name on them -- I''m 26 and live on my own for the love of God!!!!

 

[blue_chica]

Another response:

I would say that men may be less enthused about marriage since we can have children so late in life. I just found out that a (older male) friend of mine has a newborn half-brother. His half-brother''s mother is 2 years older than he is. So, men may not have the ''ticking clock'' that women have. Or at least not to the extent that women have... or maybe their clocks are just running late because they didn''t realize the batteries needed to be charged...

Why do you think some men are just as anxious as ''girls'' for this next phase in life and others are fighting it?

Who''s to say? The same man may exhibit both traits at different times in their life (I did). Whether or not you want to get married depends (or should depend) on 2 things... are you ready to get married & is the person you''re with someone you''d want to marry. A guy who has reluctance to get married may not be sure which of these criteria is not being met... and may, perhaps unknowingly, cite one as the reason, when it is, in fact the other. Emotions along these lines are more vague than most men (including myself) are capable of recognizing. One thing we are capable of recognizing is when both of the criteria are being met... in which case, we''re all gung-ho.

If guys are willing to spend the rest of their lives with a woman, what''s so scary about marriage?

I guess some guys just don''t want to say, "I''ll be with you the rest of my life". They would prefer to say, "I''ll be with you today, and reassess tomorrow". They probably feel that saying the latter every day of their lives will end up with the same results as the former... without the feeling of being ''trapped'' & without options.

I asked him to clarify a lot of this, since I think it''s a rather vague and useless answer.

 

[blue_chica]

Blueroses: I too find the self-centered angle kind of odd. Any relationship is a combination of self-centered needs and we needs..., right? However, I think his interpretation says more about him than relationships.

Like I said, not dateable. What you said about your friend: He said summer? (thinking June 21) and she said, OH, for me summer means June 1!! He proposed on May 31. I would say no on those grounds. That''s just ridiculous, pushing it like that! Emotional torture, I say...at that point you can''t be happy, you''re just relieved. Talk about taking a nice experience and sucking the joy out of it.

Someone just sent me this picture, thought it was funny!

 

[blueroses]

That picture is hilarious!!!

I am with you--that last day carp IS terrible!! But she was ok with it, probably because 1) she had communicated to him that ANY time within the timeframe was ok, but when it had ended, that was that, and 2) she KNEW he had the ring--the jewler had stupidly left a message at the house. Anyway, she still got all giddy and silly and excited and teary when he proposed at dinner as if it were a shock! Huh! So....yeah, typical boy. But they''ve been married since Sep 25 now and so far so good!

Thanks for all of these boy-insights....good to read.

 

[wcitygirl]

OMG! How can guys not be able to differentiate between how they feel about someone and how they feel about where they are in their life! That sort of makes me a little paranoid....

 

[Erin]

Okay, you know what? I don''t like Bachelor #1. He makes me grind my teeth!

 

[websailor]

LOL!!!! That cake topping is soooooo cute!

Well I''m glad they clarified what "summer" meant! For me that would have been anywhere between May and October.... I would have been a bachelor still I guess!!! (No clue that meant June 1)....

 

[blue_chica]

More replies...

This guy is 28, a total sweetie, dates, but no long term relationships. I''d so like to see him find the right person. He knows nothing about Erin etc. other than her questions. It seems like a lot of the guys are assuming the girl is 25-30, and has only been with the guy a little while. Not sure why that is.

I just realized that reversing these questions to the girl is a pretty
reasonable thing to do.

She has four very loaded questions.
All four tell a lot about her own views on the subject. Sometimes
when you ask loaded questions, answering the reverse, and thinking
about the basis of it, will help you understand the other side. Or
understand your feelings better. She''s anxious to get married. Why? If
it''s because she "feels insecure alone", that''s something she should
work on herself and not seek a husband to fix. If she "sees marriage
and comittment as a status symbol", then getting upset at the guy is
hardly fair.

> Why do you think some men are just as anxious as ''girls'' for this next
> phase in life and others are fighting it?
Why do you think some women are the same?

> If guys are willing to spend the rest of their lives with a woman,
> what''s so scary about marriage?
If girls are willing to spend the rest of their lives with a man,
what''s so scary about not marriage?

And onto my replies:

Kids make sense as a reason for marriage. If the couple is planning on
having kids as soon as they are married, and the guy is floundering on
the wedding, maybe he''s actually not ready for kids. In that case she
should be talking to him about his fears regarding kids, not marriage.

If they want a house, I can tell you from experience that you don''t
need to be married to a person to buy a house together. It still
requires a lot of trust, but legal documents help.

Financials are different between every couple. X and Y split
theirs, even post-marriage.

I''m sure she''s done a lot of brainstorming already, but her
desperation to get married could be as much an issue as his reluctance
to get married. (female-desperation, male-reluctance --- gotta love
the power of stereotypical words )

Anyway, you know I have about as much figured out in life as a dung
beetle. Everything above is playing the devil''s advocate. I still
harbor a deeply ingrained belief that I am going to find the woman of
my dreams and get married and have 2.5 kids ... no matter how far from
reality that is. For now I''m a firm believer in holding off on
marriage until kids necessitate it, but I wouldn''t be surprised if I
ended up married to someone three months after meeting her. My
problems with marriage - everyone seems equally happy making the
commitment for life the day of, but 40% of them end well before that.
In 2000 there were ~2.3 million weddings, or ~4.6 million people
getting married. So 1,800,000 thought they found the perfect person
and were wrong. When the time comes, is it not pure hubris for me to
be certain that I''m in the 2,800,000 who were right? Do divorce rates
break down by intelligence and therefore I am safer? Can I count on
the fact that since I came from a family with a stable marriage that I
am therefore spared ... the odds are better, but still not great. Are
there stats on divorce rates among the nonreligious? I''m guessing I''m
in trouble there. What about the fact that I haven''t been in many long
term relationships? Is that a positive in that I''m not jaded, or a
negative in that I will be too easily swayed by something that seems
''right''. As it is now, there are two parts about marriage that scare
me:
1) Given that the odds aren''t great that it will work out, divorce is
a bitch. Splitting wealth, splitting friends, splitting kids. Living
in a non-perfect marriage is a bitch too - I don''t know, never been
there.
2) Married couples, even more so then serious relationships, lose
their single friends. Or maybe single friends lose their married
friends. Whatever. The percentages are worse there than they are for
divorces. I like my friends. I define life through my friends and my
family. When I lose friends - through them moving away, getting in
fights, or getting married - I have to redefine my life, and I hate
that. I teter on the brink of happiness as it is. So, currently, my
fear is my friends getting married, but I''m sure that will find an
equivalent fear on the other side.

The things I want most in the short term are satisfied by a
relationship. The need for someone to take care of me when I''m old and
in diapers hardly seems like a reasonable justification for getting
married. So, short of kids, coming home to the same person, telling
her I love her, holding her in a tight embrace that lasts just longer
than she was expecting it to, and hoping to catch a simple smile in
return are all the commitment that I am hoping for.

Feel free to pass this along to her if you want, taking out the names
above of course. Personally, I''d bet that it will make her extremely
happy to see that for all her problems there''s some guy out there who
thinks he knows something about life and actually is far more lost
than her or her boyfriend. But maybe she''ll look at you a little weird
knowing that you hang out with someone like me. Sorry if that''s the
case. Or maybe all the pessimism above will be taken as an attack
on her and she''ll be pissed, and I''m sorry if that''s the case too.

p.s. Continuing the devil''s advocate, or perhaps just proving that I
read too much Dan Savage:
> > > > > > > Why do you think the more women say one word that infers the idea of
> > > > > > > marriage the more some guys retaliate with pushing it off?
duh, cuz guys don''t like getting pushed into anything. Ever play the
game where you slowly push someone harder and harder and they push
back, and then you let go and they fall over? What about the game
where you both hold one end of a rubber band ... the person who let''s
go first losses the rubber band, but doesn''t get hurt. Am I implying
anything about marriage here? Nope, just thought those were funny
games to play.

> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why do you think some men are just as anxious as ''girls'' for this next
> > > > > > > phase in life and others are fighting it?
For the same reason that some guys like the rain, and some guys don''t.

> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If guys are willing to spend the rest of their lives with a woman,
> > > > > > > what''s so scary about marriage?
Having 150 people block off an entire weekend, buy presents, and
celebrate something that ends up in shambles. But more importantly, a
long term relationship that fails is a breakup. A divorce is forever a
reminder that the ''sacred institution'' was defiled, that you failed at
something your parents told you was the goal of life, that the
fairytale ending of every Hollywood movie will never again be
something you can fantasize about for your own life, that everytime
you see some story about people who have nothing - no money, no food,
no hope - but who have love, and the moral of the story is that love
is all that is important in life, that all you''ll be able to do is
think about the inverse.

> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What about a 31 year old man is ''not ready'' for marriage?
I was more ready for marriage at 18 than I am at 28. At 18 none of my
friends had been married for less than a year before getting divorced.
At 18 I hadn''t spent ten years of my life enjoying life without anyone
telling me what to do. At 18 I hadn''t looked at myself critically and
seen flaw upon flaw. At 18 I hadn''t considered the fact that for all
my good intentions, I could screw up a kids life. At 28 I''ve started
thinking about the possibility of life without marriage, and I realize
that although it is scary as hell, it''s also not the end of the world.