BIC, TIC & FIC in relation to noticing the "Arrow" pattern...

[Carmel]

I have posted this question before, but I still remain perplexed – so please forgive.

In my search for the diamond that best suits my taste, I have concluded that I am not all that fond of noticing a pronounced arrow pattern when looking straight down through the crown. Would a BIC stone exhibit less of this trait (vs. TIC showing stronger arrows and FIC showing even stronger arrows than TIC)? What measurements/aspects do I look for that will make these “arrows” less noticeable, yet will not inhibit the rest of the diamond’s performance? I certainly don’t want to compromise “sparkle.” In fact, I am hoping to find a stone with the numbers that correlate to small pinpoint sparkle vs. chunky, silvery-mirror sparkle. Am I overcomplicating things a bit here?

My curiosity results from studying the information on the diamond-cut.com website. I seem to be filling up on book knowledge, but I’m finding this understanding somewhat difficult to apply to real life diamond shopping. It’s difficult to examine the detailed depth/table/crown/pavilion numbers when I tell the sales staff in a B&M that I’m just casually looking (as I am intending to purchase online). Viewpoints?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Do you have an ideal-scope? Look for stones with a less prevelant star.
Perhaps a stone near the upper edge around 2-2.5 on HCA.

Look for diamonds with larger tables.
Perhaps the symmetry should be less than perfect.

Also the website is www.diamond-cut.com.au (you lleft Australia off

)

 

[valeria101]

This sounds indeed like non-H&A symmetry may help (like this GIA Ex-Ex stone with nice harts and a flower instead of arrows

has) or some finer tuning of the minor facets (Examples down THIS LINK).

If you do have the option to hunt among candidate GIA stones (it may take a few

)than the IScope is great. You would need some refference to practice on before using the tool - and Garry's calibration CZ comes to mind. But... a hand-held tool is only as good as the hand (no ofense, I am reffering to minimal practice).

There do not seem to be loads of stones with non H&A symmetry being presented with tests of brilliance - which is regreatble. But branded rounds with different cuts than the RBC are the exception, if you would consider going that route.

 

[Mara]

yes as Garry noted, look for non H&A stones. BIC and FIC are not necessarily going to always be the popular term of 'ideal', they are just termed that way but you should be able to find some excellent BIC or FIC cuts that don't show the arrows (by the way I don't think all FICs will show arrows!).




One of the gals on here, I can't recall her name, got a 3c stone from Blue Nile which had great numbers, but didn't really have a great arrow pattern from what I recall. It was a FIC on the HCA and she loved it. So it is possible to find nice stones that aren't H&A..and not all IDEAL stones are going to be H&A.




For example I was in Tiffanys and tried on one of their 2c stones. Supposedly all their cuts are ideal yet I couldn't see a hint of arrows in it, while mine was showing arrows in the same lighting. So they may have great cuts but they won't have that excellent symmetry or H&A pattern in all of them.




If you are shopping offline, look for good numbers but not the arrows in the stone. If you are shopping online, ask for idealscope images and look for stones with less pronounced patterns as Garry noted.




Lastly, I only see the arrows in my stone maybe 25% of the time in certain lighting. Did you realize that it's not as though you see the arrows all the time? In fact in super sparkly situations, I can't even focus on the stone, much less pick out the arrows. I DO notice that many times the largest flashes of sparkle and light seem to come from the arrow heads..so you may want to think about what sort of compromise is best.




Good luck!

 

[kevinng]

Perhaps you can consider a Gabrielle Diamond?

 

[Carmel]

Ah, well, please pardon my syntax error, Mr. Holloway, as I did not mean to short you in any way…Yes, folks, that’s www.diamond-cut.com.au (and well worth the visit).

So the way I understand your suggestions (Cut Nut and valeria101), I should just be looking for a downgraded stone? Uh, that’s where I started out in the first place, before I set out on this educational quest. Do I go back there – to less-symmetrical land? Fish? Or Cut Bait? – Fish? Or Cut Bait? Also, valeria101, are you referring to Round cuts with extra facets? And if so, what to the experts think of that? I don’t want to be sporting some sham-of-a-stone ring thinking I’m all hoity-toity when everyone around me is whispering.

 

[Lynn B]

VERY interesting thread... especially in light of the fact that some people chase those little arrows like some holy grail!!!

I LOVE seeing the arrows in my stone once in a while (like Mara said, it's certainly not 100% of the time)... but I have to say, I would LOVE to see that first stone that Ana linked to. I'll bet it's GORGEOUS!

Well, keep us posted on what you end up doing!

Lynn

 

[Lynn B]

Just "playing" a little... when I put the PERCENTAGE #'s into the HCA for the third stone posted by Mara, it scored EX/EX/EX/GOOD; 1.1 FIC. (This same stone scored a 3.1 with the angle #s inputted.) But I thought the FIC score was interesting.

Lynn

 

[Carmel]

Thanks, everyone, for your overwhelming responses. I’m touched. I also bet that most of you feel like reaching through the computer monitor, shaking me and saying, “Wake up, girl!” Thanks, Mara, for pointing out that the arrow pattern is not always noticeable. That fact might actually be a deal maker for me – if I don’t have to observe arrows every time I look at my stone. I don’t know why I’m so darned obsessed with that – probably lack of experience. I’m trying to elevate my standards – really, I am – but I just have an aversion to a strong arrow pattern. I know I definitely don’t want to forfeit first-class sparkle in trade, though. So if I do go the route of less symmetry, will that render a larger stone for my money?

 

[Lynn B]

----------------
So if I do go the route of less symmetry, will that render a larger stone for my money?----------------

Good question... and I don't have an answer for you. I think the issue is more than just "less symmetry"... a diamond w/o H & A can (and should) still have good symmetry. And any diamond purchase price depends on lots of situations, particularly WHERE you are buying it from, etc. I think your best bet is to just to keep on looking/looking/looking at (and pricing) ALL kinds of diamonds (in person).

And don't forget to have fun!

Lynn

 

[Carmel]

To kevinng: I just read a very long PS thread that ran from 01/04 through 07/04 regarding the Gabrielle. Lots of Yin and Yang going on there. Can’t seem to find where the Gabrielle is sold in Portland, Oregon. Thanks for the tip, though. I might investigate further.

 

[Carmel]

To Lynn B: You are right on…I’m forgetting the “fun” quotient. Maybe I need to scrap my pre-conceived notions. I’m sure those people chasing the “Holy Grail” know what they’re doing.

Boy, this was a lot easier when I knew less. Am I the spokes model for the slogan “A Little Bit of Knowledge Can Make You Very Dangerous,” or what?? I’m going to go get a life now, and do some lookin’ around. Thanks everyone – I’ve really needed this sounding board!

 

[Mara]

The best thing to do is see a H&A in person, find a local jeweler that sells them. Possibly a Hearts of Fire dealer as they show hearts and arrows though some H&A patterns may not please the most die hard of picky.




I saw my arrows today at a restaurant but only by angling the stone just so and then staring at it for a minute. It was very cool actually.

I love when I see them. It's like a fun secret. So again, it's not as though you look down at the stone every minute and see this arrow pattern, that would be a bit funky eh? Most of the time the arrows function as sparkle inducers I guess, and in some lighting situations you actually catch the pattern.




A non-ideal may or may not net you more stone for the money. I used to have a 1.23c stone that had the SPREAD of a 1.35c stone, but it was not ideal cut. It had a larger table and shallower depth and great light return but honestly I see a huge difference in how that stone performed and how my new one does. I was definitely sacrificing something in terms of sparkle factor for that spread!




Then again, you may be able to find something that has great numbers, but just does not have that excellent or ideal symmetry that makes the arrows appear. I would not give up on having a great cut stone and no prominent arrow pattern just yet BUT I would also advise to check out the H&A stones in PERSON, you may be surprised at just how little you can make out the arrows in general lighting situations. I see it as a bonus, its infrequent.

 

[Carmel]

All of you are really taking me by the hand, and I so appreciate your generous hints and profound insight. Thanks for using kid gloves with me (especially Mara - you're a real gem).

To your shock and disbelief, please know that I am not a complete numbskull. I did visit a high-end Hearts on Fire jeweler just the other day, and although the sales person spent quite a deal of time with me, I left rather unfulfilled. She, too, thought it was a bit bizarre that I didn’t give a care about the arrow pattern. I was, however, able to compare a Hearts on Fire to a Lazare Kaplan - actually, they both looked equally snappy/flashy and all of that (of course under the H&A viewer, there was quite a difference in the crispness and definition of the arrow patterns). But that wasn’t really what I went in there for. I just wanted to see if those darned arrows show up strongly on these high cut stones. I have to tell you, I can't even remember now if they did.

So, I’m still left wondering if there is a diamond out there that will take my breath away – and maybe in the long run it will show arrows.

Interestingly enough, I did just find a cut called a “Jubilant Crown” while I was spell checking and did a search for Lazare Kaplan (no relation, just some jeweler sold both brands). I’m intrigued. Check it out: www.jcrdiamond.com. I love the solitaire setting (Yellow Gold with White Gold or Plat Prongs). No dealer in my area, but I found one in Spokane and I’ll be there later in the month so maybe I’ll check it out there. I conducted a search on PS and found only one thread, but not too informational. Meanwhile, I’ll venture out tomorrow for some more snoopin’ around. I’ve also got it slated on my calendar to call GOG and see if they can assuage some of my qualms. Why not?

 

[Mara]

"I just wanted to see if those darned arrows show up strongly on these high cut stones. I have to tell you, I can't even remember now if they did."

So now I am confused. Since that was your point in going into the store, how can you not remember if they showed up or not? Wouldn't that be what you would remember above all else? First impressions? But, if you can't remember if they showed up in regular light viewing (not under a viewer), chances are 50/50 that they didn't. But even if that was the case and you saw no arrows in regular viewing, sounds like you weren't entirely impressed with them anyway...hence your next line...

"So, I’m still left wondering if there is a diamond out there that will take my breath away – and maybe in the long run it will show arrows. "

So it sounds as though even if the HOF and/or whatever else you saw was very sparkly/flashy they did not take your breath away? This is interesting, because really I don't know what could be more sparkly than an excellently cut RB! I say this because in terms of the excellent cut and the round shape, a round can show the MOST light return of any stone out there, even an extra faceted cut or another shape. So if the HOF did not make you tingle, then chances are that a H&A stone will not either, because I tend to think their sparkle is very similar and HOF stones in general seem very well cut. I think the LK may be a slightly different sparkle, did you see them side by side?

So this is a bit confusing IMO...you went to see arrows in rounds, can't recall if you saw them but even if you didn't, weren't SO impressed by the HOF and other stones that you wanted to buy one and instead are still looking for a knock-your-socks-off-arrowless-round-brilliant.

Hmmm...maybe a different cut such as a square or cushion?

 

[quaeritur]

Hi Carmel-

I'm wondering if your aversion to the arrows pattern stems from seeing so many photos here that show it? After spending lots of time learning here, I was under the impression that when I started looking at ideal cut stones in person all I'd see was arrows

. Turned out not to be the case. It's actually pretty tough to see them, and as Mara said, only in certain lighting conditions and at certain angles... It's also hard to capture the arrows in photos, so I think folks here try really hard to photograph them, and if they catch the arrows, that's the picture that gets posted. In short, I think that there's a higher percentage of images on PS that show arrows compared to how often you will actually be able to see the arrows yourself. Make sense?

 

[valeria101]

I should have linked these to your posts, but maybe this works too:

#1: about "downgrading" symmetry. That does not have to happen - one can have a stone with perfect symmetry (either by GIA's definition that deals with the finish, or 3D - taking into account the arrangement of all facets relative to each other, not only the neighboring ones) and no H&A pattern. To form H&A, you need the facets to be arranged in a certain way. You can see exactly how in the "H&A" bit of the tutorial here.


#2: An impressive diamond... is not something anyone but you knows what it is! If sparkle does not do it for you, maybe shape and size will ? There are other shapes that were made to match the brilliance of a round - they would be mostly branded cuts that come with tests of brilliance (like the H&A squares listed by Good Old Gold). But non-branded ones can do well to - only it takes a good amount of patience to browse through them (as if this would be backbreaking

. Here's a nice one (LINK): best proof yet of what an Old Mine cut can do !

#3: yes, I was referring to branded round diamonds (those with extra facets compared to the traditional round). The main detraction to these... would be the price premium, aside two pretty big ones: the many facets tend to hide inclusions and the makers know this so you may end up choosing among very included stones, and while many facets do produce more fire, there is no guarantee that these stones would also have top light return.

Hope this helps

 

[MelanieC]

Hi there,

I just thought I would chime in as someone who just bought an ideal AGS 000 diamond that fell in the 2.1 HCA range (because of the 41 degree angle on the pavillion using the numbers on the AGS cert). It possibly could have been a lower score if a Sarin report had been done on the stone, but all I had was the AGS cert. This stone got a 9.4 on the ISee2 and really has a lot of sparkle and TONS of fire (at least to my eyes). I also haven't seen it compared to a 1.1 or 1.5 HCA scoring H&A stone either.

My stone is not a hearts and arrows, but it was never checked to be too so it's possible that it is. It might also be one that has good symmetry and is almost a hearts and arrow and just displays arrows when viewing it sometimes.

I agree with the others that the times that the stone actually looks it's very BEST, is when the light is reflecting off the arrows. The light catches those arrows and dances in the most beautiful way. I see pinks, blues and yellows that seem to throw off a beautiful soft rainbow of colors in every direction and I love to sit and stare at the arrows. I will never want a stone again that I cannot see arrows.

In most lighting conditions the arrows cannot be seen. That is what is so incredible about looking at a diamond is that the diamond changes it's "FACE" so many times a day. While driving in the sun it's silvery and reflective, at work its sparkly and I can see the arrows, at a grocery store it becomes a very firey "fireball". I could go on and on about how it changes. It makes it fun to look at to see what it looks like in each lighting situation. Not knowing when you will see the arrows makes it even more special. It's like having a secret in the diamond and waiting for it to be revealed.

Good luck in your search. I wouldn't rule out a hearts and arrow, but definately keep looking to find what you like. Keep going to B&M stores and looking at diamonds. Ask to see them outside and in different lighting situations.

 

[Lynn B]

Melanie,
Good to see you sticking around! And your avatar is simply lovely!

I think quaeritur makes an excellent point -- someone cruising PS could EASILY begin to think that those arrows are quite prominent and ever-noticable... definitely NOT the case!

Mara (as always!) makes more excellent points. And I agree, the arrows are like a really fun "secret" and a bonus. I LOVE that about my diamond, and I am SOOOO glad it is H & A. If I ever upgrade (yikes... that blasted SHRINKAGE is already maybe, just MAYBE -- just MAAAAAAYBE already starting!!!! And believe me, I am almost embarrased and ashamed to admit that!

) I would definitely get another H & A. No doubt about it.

Lynn

 

[Carmel]

I don’t mean to be complicating the matter…I’m just so distracted now, that I’m flailing around like a fish out of water.

"I just wanted to see if those darned arrows show up strongly on these high cut stones. I have to tell you, I can't even remember now if they did." My translation: The arrow pattern must have been fairly slight…and I was concentrating so strongly on trying to see any other differences between the HOF and the LK that I overwhelmed myself. I was trying to make the most out of my field trip, and there were a lot of things to consider once I started viewing both brands. I wasn’t there to buy, just to do some homework, and so I tried not to let anything I looked at steal my heart. I was trying to be business minded.

“So it sounds as though even if the HOF and/or whatever else you saw was very sparkly/flashy they did not take your breath away? This is interesting, because really I don't know what could be more sparkly than an excellently cut RB!”

In my defense, it’s painfully evident that I’m a novice at this, and I’m a little bit gun shy. A couple of weeks ago, I would have said a chip of Plexiglas looked brilliant and sparkly. Now that I know a little something more, I’m suspicious all the time that there is probably something better out there. The HOF and the LK seemed to exhibit almost identical qualities – so it was difficult for me to react exuberantly over either one. Compared to a “dud,” ya, then I’m sure they’re marvey. But what if there’s actually something even better out there? How do I know (again, the inexperience-overwhelming-gun shy thing)?

So, I guess I’m having some post-traumatic stress syndrome symptoms. I’m still recovering from buyers remorse from when this whole thing started (old post regarding the return of the Ben Bridge Signature diamond), and don’t want to make another mistake. YES, I want the most startling, sizzling, brilliant rock I can afford, which I took to understand would be a Round Brilliant. Nevertheless, I want to substitute the arrow pattern for some really minute glittery sparkle. But it’s just something I dreamed up in my head, and if it can’t be done, it can’t be done.

Quaeritur is right. The arrow image is etched into my psyche. This searching is making me a bit weary, and so again, I re-iterate, I’m having trouble focusing. I’m just trying to get all the combinations right and not overlook something that will rub me the wrong way later.

To valeria101: You’ve given me something to grab onto. I’m worn out now, but your response has very pointedly answered a couple of my most worrisome concerns. Thank you.

To MelanieC and Lynn B: Your posts were just plain sweet and endearing. Mara and you two have persuasive arguments, and may still sway me over to your side!

To Mara: I know you just want to flick me in the head 'cause I know I’m textbook-something.

But, hey...it's all good!

Ciao!

 

[Lynn B]

Just 2 more cents...

As my friend Magnum has said, it's important to remember that diamonds do not create light - they only reflect back light around them. Therefore, a diamond (even an extremely well-cut diamond) will NOT be always be a "startling, sizzling, brilliant rock".

When I first got mine, I have to admit I was perplexed because it wasn't always "on fire". I naively had assumed that all great diamonds were always little balls of color. In some lighting situations my diamond really doesn't "do much". I discussed this with the independent appraiser and he (sweetly and kindly!) laughed at me... said my diamond was perfect, gorgeous, a real performer, excellent in scintillation/brilliance/fire, showing all the spectral colors... etc. It is doing exactly what it ought to do.

So I guess I just want to help you to keep your expectations realistic. Sometimes around here, we get so excited about our stones, that a newbie could begin to think that they glow in the dark!!!

Lynn

 

[Mara]

Carmel..check out my post on my rings:




https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-new-ring-oops-i-mean-rings.14091/



I post this because I have an unbranded H&A stone. It was cut to be an ACA but for whatever reason, something was 'off' so it didn't make the cut. However, as you can see from my images in this thread, the arrows are very prominent in the photos. So it's an unbranded H&A to me.




In some of my pictures, you can blatantly see the arrow flashes, and the first few pix I posted in that thread show enlarged photos of the stone and ring from WhiteFlash, clearly showing the arrows. I can see how that would make someone think..wow those are there all the time? Ick! I would totally agree, if that was the case.




But there are other photos in that thread of the ring just plain sparkling and no arrows are visible! Hopefully this helps drive my point home on the fact that catching the arrows is just a bonus. It took me ALOT of photos in just the right lighting to capture those arrow flashes, the rest of the time it's just a blur of sparkle.




One other thing to point out is that in one post in that thread Valeria circled one of the stones in my wedding ring, which are all H&A ACA melee. She noted that seeing the arrows in a stone so small (.02c) was cool. Yes it's awesome, but I also wanted to say I have NEVER, NOT ONCE caught the arrow flash in my tiny melee wedding band in any lighting situation. So sometimes H&A aren't visible at all depending on the stone size! My husband has a .38c ACA H&A stone and I see the arrows in his 1/4 of the time I see mine (my stone is larger). So again, this is all food for thought.

I also have some new pix I took recently that I can post as well, no arrows visible at all, and these were all taken in our kitchen with recessed track lighting (makes the stone a fireball and you can't focus a bit!).

 

[Mara]

here are some recent pictures which show sparkle in the kitchen. no real arrows though if you look closely you can catch a hint...e.g. in that purple picture the real purple flashes are coming from the bottom arrows!!

 

[Lynn B]

GREAT photos, Mara! Simply lovely!

Wow... if you choose to have babies someday, I bet they'll have BOATLOADS of photos taken of them!

xoxox!
Lynn

 

[Mara]

Hah Lynn you quite obviously have not seen my new dog thread in the Diamond Hangout!!

We already have 400+ pictures of her and we have had her for 5 weeks.

They grow so fast!

 

[Lynn B]

Mara,

LOL! Nope, I missed that. I can't keep up with all the various forums, I guess! Congratulations on the new (furry!) baby!

Lynn