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ASET For Royal Asscher: Answered

Dr_Diesel

Rough_Rock
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Dec 23, 2019
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...also, I really hope vendors will someday move to ASET videos instead of still images:

 
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OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
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...also, I really hope vendors will someday move to ASET videos instead of still images:

Yes!

Moving ASET would be very useful in showing that some leakage is not always a bad thing - @diagem has previously been kind enough to post scans/models of tilted ASETs of his antique-style asschers (i.e. 0 degrees, 5 degrees tilt, 10 degrees tilt, etc.) and it is very interesting to see how the facets change :)
 

Dr_Diesel

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i can't wait to see the finished ring on your finger.
What is the time frame now?

that asscher is a stunner.
Aaahhh yes, the time frame...

Unfortunately it may be longer than you or I might hope. I seem to have blown up the bling fund with my little impulse buy here. And, as much as I like the BooneRing possibility, I kind of want to feel the heft of platinum.

Don’t know how long I can hold out just playing with it in a pair of gem tweezers though. I think it may drive me crazy in the mean time.
 

AV_

Ideal_Rock
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...also, I really hope vendors will someday move to ASET videos instead of still images
I must have written the same somewhere; I am wishing something simpler - perhaps benchmarks for obstruction and brightness only, and surface reflections can be the letter [in other words: deconstructing the ASET into the videography setup].

Then, would not try to have a sense of optical symmetry in motion, come what may.
 

gregchang35

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Aaahhh yes, the time frame...

Unfortunately it may be longer than you or I might hope. I seem to have blown up the bling fund with my little impulse buy here. And, as much as I like the BooneRing possibility, I kind of want to feel the heft of platinum.

Don’t know how long I can hold out just playing with it in a pair of gem tweezers though. I think it may drive me crazy in the mean time.
agree on the heft of platinum.. it is lux and at a price.. but it will be exactly what this RA needs.
if i were to start my collection again, this would have been the solitaire i woudl have got...Well done on finding it... And.... all good things come to those who wait..... not sure how you will survive inbetween that time! LOLOLOLOL
 

Dr_Diesel

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agree on the heft of platinum.. it is lux and at a price.. but it will be exactly what this RA needs.
if i were to start my collection again, this would have been the solitaire i woudl have got...Well done on finding it... And.... all good things come to those who wait..... not sure how you will survive inbetween that time! LOLOLOLOL
Wow! That’s quite a compliment coming from you! Thank you sir!
 

Dr_Diesel

Rough_Rock
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I must have written the same somewhere; I am wishing something simpler - perhaps benchmarks for obstruction and brightness only, and surface reflections can be the letter [in other words: deconstructing the ASET into the videography setup].

Then, would not try to have a sense of optical symmetry in motion, come what may.
I see what you mean. As I do more ASET photography, I’m noticing some oddities which seem specific to fancy cuts.

(1) Areas coded as blue obstruction are often the areas of brightest light return IRL and rarely show up as contrast (mainly when holding a camera a few inches away).

(2) the table often reflects a blue cast which muddies what’s happening UNDER the table.

(3) Light entering the table from at or around 90°(+/-) seems to be reflecting, at least in part, the clear lens of the scope*. This seems to show up as washed out or colorless bands on the image where there is, in fact, no light leakage IRL. The difference is relatively subtle, but zones of true light leakage can be differentiated from these washed-out areas if you look carefully.

I see these issues in a lot of photos taken with handheld ASET scopes, particularly in Asschers. It is very clear when the images from those photos are compared with the computer-generated ASET images.

*NOTE: This seems to be less of an issue when using a black background (in my case, resting the diamond on a felt pad). I'm assuming that this is because light entering the scope is more diffused, reducing the influence of the lens and it's associated "colorless" 90-degree reflections.

While I’m not an expert, I think there *may* be something to these observations.

Perhaps @Garry H (Cut Nut) or @Karl_K can shed some light on the issue?
 
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lovedogs

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Might be a silly question, but what is the difference between the royal asscher and octavia? I'm trying to look at both on my phone and find differences but am struggling. @Karl_K and @diagem ? I feel like I see more of a defined "square" in the very middle of the octavia, but can't tell if that's just my eyes playing tricks on me lol
 

Karl_K

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They are clearly different in person but simular in some ways having more med. virtual facets. they just do it in 2 different ways.
RA uses extra facets
Octavia uses a small table and a super high crown with the stanard 1902 asscher 3 crown and 3 pavilion rows.
 

lovedogs

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They are clearly different in person but simular having more med. virtual facets. they just do in 2 different ways.
RA uses extra facets
Octavia uses a small table and a super high crown with the stanard 1902 asscher 3 crown and 3 pavilion rows.
I'm going to try to get pics of both in one place (via photoshop) to figure out what you mean. Thanks for clarifying!
 

acebruin

Brilliant_Rock
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Feb 21, 2008
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677
@Dr_Diesel very nice! One of these days I would want a 2+ ct RA in my hands. In the mean time keep playing with the stone. I know it's very mesmerizing. I can just stare at it for hours...
 

lovedogs

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octavia vs RA.png
Fun with paint 3D! I rotated one of the RA pics from this thread so I could see them at the same angle.

I think the small table that @Karl_K talked about above is what I was noting looked like a "square in the middle" of the octavia that I didn't see in the RA. It looks like the RA has more facets. Both are gorgeous, but my personal preference is the octavia. But I certainly wouldn't kick the RA out of bed :)
 

Dr_Diesel

Rough_Rock
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Dec 23, 2019
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65
I'm going to try to get pics of both in one place (via photoshop) to figure out what you mean. Thanks for clarifying!
The two diamonds also have a different "feel."

For what it's worth, I've seen 2 Octavias and this one Royal Asscher in person and love them all. I would LOVE to get an Octavia one of these days (but then again, I have quite a list of "wants" when it comes to rocks)...but that's not happening anytime soon.

One Octavia was a D color and SPECTACULAR but only 0.9cts. Too small to *fully* appreciate the genius of its design and almost unreal precision of it's cutting - but man did it POP! The stone's presence was much larger than it's physical size. Truly mind-blowing.

On the note of size, I think that, while some Aschers are cut for a larger spread, the smaller face-up size of the Octavia is more than made up for by it's performance. I would choose light performance over spread any day, but that's just my preference.

The second Octavia was 1.46ct. and was a grayish (rather than yellowish) I color. Easier to appreciate the design in that size, but I'm quite color-sensitive and the gray tone conferred a very different 'mood' compared to the D. I loved the geometry of the stone but not the color. If it were an F color (but at the same price point as the I color), I'd probably have bought it right there ...and this thread would never have happened.

Sorry, I digress...

So, both the Octavia and Royal Asscher are very precise cuts and light performance on both is excellent - but also very different from one another.

OCTAVIA: In terms of overall light performance (brightness and intensity of light return), Octavia takes the cake. The flashes of white and colored lights are like fireworks, popping off suddenly and with (literally) blinding flashes in direct sunlight. It's a show-stopper.

The shape and pattern of light return are very consistent, even at tilt angles.

Lots of regularly-arranged rays of little triangles emanating from the very small table and "popping" across the across the face of the stone (which is mainly comprised of crown facets). This creates a very different kind of patterning than step-cut diamonds with a large table that creates a window into the pavilion.

ROYAL ASSCHER: It's also a very bright stone. It handles light differently however, and has a somewhat softer, "glowing" sort of feel. The experience of "depth" is more noticeable in the RA.

Perhaps this is due to (1) The larger table and (2) the sequencing of concentric squares with varying intensities of light (red, green and blue concentric squares you see in the ASET). The geometry of the RA draws you into the depths of the stone whereas the Octavia offers a more explosive light show from its surface.

The shape and pattern of light return in the RA is also very consistent, even at tilt angles. The distribution of light shows a different kind of geometry however. Think multicolored laser lines arranged in concentric squares.

The way it does fire is different as well. Octavia shows bold, well-defined triangular "pops" of color that roll over it's surface, whereas the RA shows well-defined concentric "needle-lines" of color as well as "pinpoint" sparkles throughout the stone. While it also shows very bold flashes, its patterning feel more "delicate" to me.

One brings you inside whereas the other rocks it's stuff for the whole world to see.

The real question for a potential owner, for me, comes down to patterning. What kind of geometry appeals to you? Also, do you prefer a softer glow that can be most appreciated with careful attention? Or do you prefer boldness that grabs your attention and expresses itself relentlessly wherever it goes?

Personally, I love em both - and precisely for the ways that they are different. For that reason, I'm not sure I could call one or the other a favorite.

While there are lots of similarities between the two designs, in person I experience them as having very distinct personalities and patterning in the ways they express light.

Apologies for my longwinded response, but I hope it's helpful!

...and now that I have a macro lens, I'd be happy to take more photos or videos if it helps you clarify the distinction. There are already lots of great video clips of the Octavia on the GemConcepts Instagram account and the GOG YouTube channels. I posted videos as well, but there were pre-macro lens and so not the greatest quality.

@acebruin - sounds like you have both an Octavia AND a RA??? Now that's a dream come true. Since you're someone in the know, can you weigh in on this commentary? Does the description here seem about right to you or is there something else you'd like to point out?
 
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Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
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re spread
The Octavia even with the 75% or so depth has better spread than most asschers of the same weight.
The RA's iv checked also have smaller spread per ct.
The depth of the Octavia is deceptive because you would think it would harm spread but it doesn't because it is lean.
In American football terms, you take a 6'2" receiver and a 6'2" lineman which one is heavier?
 

Dr_Diesel

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 23, 2019
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re spread
The Octavia even with the 75% or so depth has better spread than most asschers of the same weight.
The RA's iv checked also have smaller spread per ct.
The depth of the Octavia is deceptive because you would think it would harm spread but it doesn't because it is lean.
In American football terms, you take a 6'2" receiver and a 6'2" lineman which one is heavier?
Very true!

For what it’s worth, the spread of the RA and the Octavia seem to be about the same per carat.

The 1.56 RA is 6.41x6.40 whereas the 1.46 Octavia was 6.30x6.30.

When I mentioned Asschers with larger spreads, I was referring to some of the poorly cut, shallow, glassy-looking monsters with huge face-up sizes.

You are, of course, very right however that the norm seems to be Asschers with too much bulk just beneath the girdle and very small face size per carat.

As the designer, you’re already aware of this, but it’s worth acknowledging that Octavias really are about as perfect as a diamond could possibly get. Seeing one in person changed my whole conception of what diamonds could actually be.

I only hope more people on this forum have a chance to see one as well. Definitely an experience for the bucket list!
 

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
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The 1.56 RA is 6.41x6.40 whereas the 1.46 Octavia was 6.30x6.30.
Just in jest and in no way bad mouthing the RA the Octavia would beat that at that size by .02ct.
But its close enough to be the called the same. lol

I like the RA and have nothing bad to say about it or the company.
Thats all I can say without getting in deeper trouble with the board rules..
 

Dr_Diesel

Rough_Rock
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Dec 23, 2019
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65
Just in jest and in no way bad mouthing the RA the Octavia would beat that at that size by .02ct.
But its close enough to be the called the same. lol

I like the RA and have nothing bad to say about it or the company.
Thats all I can say without getting in deeper trouble with the board rules..
Haha! Right on Karl!
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
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Just in jest and in no way bad mouthing the RA the Octavia would beat that at that size by .02ct.
But its close enough to be the called the same. lol

I like the RA and have nothing bad to say about it or the company.
Thats all I can say without getting in deeper trouble with the board rules..
Thank you @lovedogs for getting my attention to this thread.

Since Karl is careful about discussing other vendors products (and rightfully so), I will elaborate a bit more as I feel discussing Octavia Diamonds on PS is a natural..., after all, both the inception of cut and the given name are part of the PS DNA. this cut was invented live on a PriceScope.

There are many different square emerald appearances, from the genuine Amsterdam made antique Asscher cuts of the early 20th century through countless different facet styles and counts, proportions and play of lights. I am certain each can appeal different humans, or as said respectfully.., to each their own.

But I can assure the readers that none go through the same rigorous cutting and polishing process as an Octavia Diamond does..., cutting Octavia's challenge the two main factors that make diamond cutting possible..., 1) current *technological tool availability, and 2) the personal cutters expertise which is divided into three, intellectual and deep understanding in the diamond material, 3D optical symmetry engineering and a great set of hands (the three must be interconnected to successfully cut an Octavia)!

I wont get into too much detail here as there is plenty of written materials on this subject alone but am wiling to attest to the fact that I dont know of any other cutters or manufacturers who are willing or have the required ability to spend a minimum full 7 day week cutting and polishing a small diamond (<1 carat) to an intellectually formulated completion. (hence the reason <carat Octavia's are not offered).

*After my recent visit to Surat (pre Covid-19), India visiting @Serg and Janak, I can also attest to the fact that both their companies Octonus & Lexus Group are well ahead of this very specialized field, in tandem, they respectfully blow their competition out of the playing field waters and I totally salute them on their current achievements, who knows what is planned for future diamond cuttings..., if anyone does in this global industry, its them!!
 

Dr_Diesel

Rough_Rock
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Dec 23, 2019
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65
octavia vs RA.png
Fun with paint 3D! I rotated one of the RA pics from this thread so I could see them at the same angle.

I think the small table that @Karl_K talked about above is what I was noting looked like a "square in the middle" of the octavia that I didn't see in the RA. It looks like the RA has more facets. Both are gorgeous, but my personal preference is the octavia. But I certainly wouldn't kick the RA out of bed :)
Here's another photo that might help you see the difference in patterning:
IMG_2750.jpg
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
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Great photo! It really shows the depth of the stone and draws your eye inwards and downwards towards the culet.
I agree, great photo of a beautiful Asscher Cut, this photo also displays the wonders of diamond reflections, looking in through the table onto the pavilion and noticing a laser inscription located all the way on the opposite girdle plane..., the journey of light :)
 

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
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@diagem @Karl_K

Regarding the Octavia, I'm curious about how you decided on a 32.7% table size. Why not large or smaller?
Top secret :}
Not really, it happened on PS.
I organically planned on a 40% table but when actually cutting it vs virtual it came out around 34.
I learned from it and can get it better now in virtual.
We thought about opening it up to 40% but a bunch of people loved it as is with the prototype so we went with it.
I believe one has been cut closer to 40% due to some rough material issues. It has the Octavia look and performance just a slightly bigger center section.
It's within my accepted range.
Under roughtly the low 30%s the center becomes to small at 1ct to stand out as 10 miles deep.
If we ever cut a 10ct we would consider going with an even smaller table in the low 20% range.

We treat them as art in how they are made, they are not cookie cutter like if we were making h&a rounds.
They are hand tuned by eye for the brands performance and look.
 
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