are you gonna watch the you know what tonight?

[FrekeChild]

Maybe because it's LIbYa? Libya.

And really, its probably because it's far away. The economy, the unemployment rate, women's reproductive choices, healthcare, etc, that is all HERE. It's terrible that people lost their lives in Benghazi, but most people don't even read or watch the news, so there are LOT of people around the USA that don't even know about it.


I highly doubt that anyone here is going to change anyone else's minds. For instance, I already voted. You can't change my mind or my vote.

 

[Mayk]

Maybe because it's LIbYa? Libya.

And really, its probably because it's far away. The economy, the unemployment rate, women's reproductive choices, healthcare, etc, that is all HERE. It's terrible that people lost their lives in Benghazi, but most people don't even read or watch the news, so there are LOT of people around the USA that don't even know about it.


I highly doubt that anyone here is going to change anyone else's minds. For instance, I already voted. You can't change my mind or my vote.

Not trying to change your mind. Not worth my time. You're biting and agressive and obnoxious.. We've seen on here how much better you've been doing in the last four years but you are going to come at me about unemployment and women's choices.. please.. while the men who keep us safe from the animals.. are slaughtered without protection.. so you jab me because I spelled a country wrong and then preach to me and tell me I can't change your mind.. SAD!!! I have simply said in two posts.. one wondering about the spin of the story and now asking why people are not more upset and look at your response.. four men died.. tried to save each other while the White House watched and the CIA contacts told the Marie to STAND DOWN! Glad for you that you are doing so well pat yourself on the back.. again!

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Are the personal attacks necessary to make a point?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Why are people not more upset , replused, outraged, motified about the revalations of the events that transpired in Lybia? I'm sickened that we had troops and diplomatic personnel in that country begging for protection and while all this was going on we had live camera drones and the White House knew what was happening. A Marine was told to stand down and not go in to save our people and he disobeyed orders even after support was refused and he died trying to save American lives.. WHY is the media all but ignoring this.. it's heart wrenching to me and I can't imagine any posted on this forum who is affiliated with the military isn't horrified... absoultely.. every day it is more upsetting to me... I pray for the safety of our troops, our diplomats and those that put their lives in harms way so I can live in a country that is LAND OF THE FREE because of the BRAVE!

had this happended under Bush the biased liberal media would be yelling for impeachment.

 

[FrekeChild]

Maybe because it's LIbYa? Libya.

And really, its probably because it's far away. The economy, the unemployment rate, women's reproductive choices, healthcare, etc, that is all HERE. It's terrible that people lost their lives in Benghazi, but most people don't even read or watch the news, so there are LOT of people around the USA that don't even know about it.


I highly doubt that anyone here is going to change anyone else's minds. For instance, I already voted. You can't change my mind or my vote.

Not trying to change your mind. Not worth my time. You're biting and agressive and obnoxious.. We've seen on here how much better you've been doing in the last four years but you are going to come at me about unemployment and women's choices.. please.. while the men who keep us safe from the animals.. are slaughtered without protection.. so you jab me because I spelled a country wrong and then preach to me and tell me I can't change your mind.. SAD!!! I have simply said in two posts.. one wondering about the spin of the story and now asking why people are not more upset and look at your response.. four men died.. tried to save each other while the White House watched and the CIA contacts told the Marie to STAND DOWN! Glad for you that you are doing so well pat yourself on the back.. again!

Wow. I don't even have a response for the first part of that.

I will say that I was not preaching to you about how you can't change my mind. That was a general statement to everyone. I'm not going to change DancingFire's stance. He's not going to change mine. I still like the guy, even if he asks to see my boobs far too often.

And of course I'm not happy that people died! I'm pointing out the ignorance of your average American.

But thanks for making it personal.

 

[beebrisk]

Maybe because it's LIbYa? Libya.

And really, its probably because it's far away. The economy, the unemployment rate, women's reproductive choices, healthcare, etc, that is all HERE. It's terrible that people lost their lives in Benghazi, but most people don't even read or watch the news, so there are LOT of people around the USA that don't even know about it.


I highly doubt that anyone here is going to change anyone else's minds. For instance, I already voted. You can't change my mind or my vote.

Yes. It's Libya. And three men who represented the President of the United States were brutally murdered there and dragged through the streets of Benghazi--But only after pleading with the State Dept for weeks to ramp up security. They knew they were in grave danger and they were trying to get their colleagues in the states to pay attention!. Their deaths at the hands' of those wretched militants could have been avoided, but repeated requests for help went unheeded. That--THAT is the direct responsibility of the President and his White House.. Their first priority, the most important part of their job, is to keep Americans safe from the enemy. They failed miserably and four good men paid the ultimate price for POTUS's and Hilary's utter incompetence.

What made the entire thing worse was the cover-up. So as not to get caught leaving Stevens and crew out to dry (their emailed requests for help are available online) they put out some inane story about a You Tube video. One that had been online for a couple of months before the attacks and had about 300 hits in total. So what we have here is the horrific tale of a President saving his own arse by lying and insulting the intelligence of the American people. Not surprising though, coming from a guy who's been coddled and patronized and gone unquestioned his entire adult life. I'm sure he just figured we'd "buy it".

Bottom line is this: Yes, it's far away and there are other more pressing issues at hand when it comes our everyday lives here in the states. But it's the President's handling of the situation that is what is so genuinely upsetting to so many people. Read the emails from Ambassador Stevens and you'll see how, with one phone call, he might still be alive today. This is our President, the Commander in Chief and he has shown us, in striking detail, what he's made of. But it's not just this one time, it's a whole series of incidents that he's handled like the amateur he is.

People DO care about this. People want the men and women in the WH to have a grasp on their job. Instead it's just an endless reel of the Keystone Cops.

You're right about some people not knowing anything about it. But that's no surprise since the in-the-tank press has barely reported it. The whole thing is a disgrace, from beginning to end.

 

[zoebartlett]

Have all people become unable to discuss politics without agreeing to disagee? Could it be that television plays a role in the polarization? (You alluded to Fox News and MSNBC which gave me that idea.) I do not watch television myself, so I do not know how strongly television influences people's political views.

What do other posters think?

Deb/AGBF

Deb, I do think TV plays a role in polarization. I watch MSNBC and CNN. Most of the pundits I watch are definitely liberal, as most of the pundits on Fox are conservative. While I do love Chris Matthews, Rachel Maddow, Chris Hayes, and a few of the others on MSNBC, I wish they'd be a little less biased. For that, I go to CNN. I'm not sure what side the pundits there are on, and it's kind of refreshing.

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="FrekeChild|

I will say that I was not preaching to you about how you can't change my mind. That was a general statement to everyone. I'm not going to change DancingFire's stance. He's not going to change mine. I still like the guy, even if he asks to see my boobs far too often.

And of course I'm not happy that people died! I'm pointing out the ignorance of your average American.

But thanks for making it personal.[/quote]



and that's the way it should be!. i mean, who am i to change your mind.anyway, Freke your state will go to Obama.

 

[justginger]

May, I understand being upset. What transpired was terrible, but perhaps until you were fully briefed on the events as they occurred, you perhaps might not have grounds to deem what was the right or wrong course of action. Do you put a further 20, 30, 40 troops in harm's way to save 4? Could the death toll have been higher if the military responded in the manner you obviously feel to be correct? NO ONE, Republican or Democrat, wants Americans to die. To suggest otherwise is cruel.

As for why people don't seemingly care more? Because sadly it's human nature. We've grown immune to pain and suffering that does not directly affect us. Famines kill millions, little girls have unsanitary and agonizing circumcisions, and 800,000 people were openly slaughtered in the 1994 Rwandan genocide. Ask an American what they've done about those things, past watching Hotel Rwanda because Oprah told them to - if they can find Rwanda or Libya on a map or identify their ethnic groups, if they can name countries where genital mutilation occurs and at what age. People don't give a crap about atrocities because they are simply not affected. Gas being $4/gallon is the end of the bloody world while mothers a world away must actually decide which child to feed today. 4 Americans dying? Terrible, but it pales in comparison to the other grievances that Americans (and other nationalities as well, of course) manage to ignore on a permanent basis.

 

[FrekeChild]

I will say that I was not preaching to you about how you can't change my mind. That was a general statement to everyone. I'm not going to change DancingFire's stance. He's not going to change mine. I still like the guy, even if he asks to see my boobs far too often.

And of course I'm not happy that people died! I'm pointing out the ignorance of your average American.

But thanks for making it personal.

and that's the way it should be!. i mean, who am i to change your mind.anyway, Freke your state will go to Obama.

Yes it will. That's because we share a state now DF.

But yes, I think that NM is more violet that purple this year.

ETA: fix quotation boxes

 

[Lula]

Maybe because it's LIbYa? Libya.

And really, its probably because it's far away. The economy, the unemployment rate, women's reproductive choices, healthcare, etc, that is all HERE. It's terrible that people lost their lives in Benghazi, but most people don't even read or watch the news, so there are LOT of people around the USA that don't even know about it.


I highly doubt that anyone here is going to change anyone else's minds. For instance, I already voted. You can't change my mind or my vote.

Yes. It's Libya. And three men who represented the President of the United States were brutally murdered there and dragged through the streets of Benghazi--But only after pleading with the State Dept for weeks to ramp up security. They knew they were in grave danger and they were trying to get their colleagues in the states to pay attention!. Their deaths at the hands' of those wretched militants could have been avoided, but repeated requests for help went unheeded. That--THAT is the direct responsibility of the President and his White House.. Their first priority, the most important part of their job, is to keep Americans safe from the enemy. They failed miserably and four good men paid the ultimate price for POTUS's and Hilary's utter incompetence.

What made the entire thing worse was the cover-up. So as not to get caught leaving Stevens and crew out to dry (their emailed requests for help are available online) they put out some inane story about a You Tube video. One that had been online for a couple of months before the attacks and had about 300 hits in total. So what we have here is the horrific tale of a President saving his own arse by lying and insulting the intelligence of the American people. Not surprising though, coming from a guy who's been coddled and patronized and gone unquestioned his entire adult life. I'm sure he just figured we'd "buy it".

Bottom line is this: Yes, it's far away and there are other more pressing issues at hand when it comes our everyday lives here in the states. But it's the President's handling of the situation that is what is so genuinely upsetting to so many people. Read the emails from Ambassador Stevens and you'll see how, with one phone call, he might still be alive today. This is our President, the Commander in Chief and he has shown us, in striking detail, what he's made of. But it's not just this one time, it's a whole series of incidents that he's handled like the amateur he is.

People DO care about this. People want the men and women in the WH to have a grasp on their job. Instead it's just an endless reel of the Keystone Cops.

You're right about some people not knowing anything about it. But that's no surprise since the in-the-tank press has barely reported it. The whole thing is a disgrace, from beginning to end.

Well, the Keystone Cops managed to get Osama bin Laden and the Republicans have ignored that for over a year. The problem, as I see it, is that the conflict in Libya is just that -- a conflict, not a declared war. That changes the dynamic in terms of the types of responses the U.S. has at its disposal. It also means that most Americans are not paying attention to these events the way they would if this was a declared-by-Congress war. I'm not saying that is right; it's just the way things tend to play out. We cannot just go in there as an invading army, though perhaps we should have. These things take time to sort out. I don't think anyone knows the whole truth, even considering the alarming information in the e-mails. The fact is covert wars, conflicts, and declared wars are disorganized and ugly and prone to error and miscalculation, by their very nature. I've always hated the term "friendly fire" and that is not what this situation is by any means, but I use that as an example of how things can go horribly wrong in war. Unless you have inside knowledge about what happened in that embassy, I think it's premature to point fingers. That it was a tragedy is obvious. But for either side to use this tragedy for political gain before the facts are in is just wrong. And the ambassador's mother said as much.

 

[zoebartlett]

Wow, May. Your comments aren't doing anything to help this thread stay open.



DF, didn't you (or was it someone else?) mention changing people's minds? I know I won't change anyone else's mind and they won't change mine. I've never known anyone who actually switched parties. With the people I know, they are either die-hard republicans or die-hard democrats. I love talking politics (although I'm not as eloquent at it as a lot of others here), and I love hearing how people think. What motivates them to vote a certain way and for a particular candidate? It's interesting.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Have all people become unable to discuss politics without agreeing to disagee? Could it be that television plays a role in the polarization? (You alluded to Fox News and MSNBC which gave me that idea.) I do not watch television myself, so I do not know how strongly television influences people's political views.

What do other posters think?

Deb/AGBF

Deb, I do think TV plays a role in polarization. I watch MSNBC and CNN. Most of the pundits I watch are definitely liberal, as most of the pundits on Fox are conservative. While I do love Chris Matthews, Rachel Maddow, Chris Hayes, and a few of the others on MSNBC, I wish they'd be a little less biased. For that, I go to CNN. I'm not sure what side the pundits there are on, and it's kind of refreshing.

CNN lean a little towards the left,but unlike MSNBC...way,way left.

 

[Lula]

Have all people become unable to discuss politics without agreeing to disagee? Could it be that television plays a role in the polarization? (You alluded to Fox News and MSNBC which gave me that idea.) I do not watch television myself, so I do not know how strongly television influences people's political views.

What do other posters think?

Deb/AGBF

Deb, I do think TV plays a role in polarization. I watch MSNBC and CNN. Most of the pundits I watch are definitely liberal, as most of the pundits on Fox are conservative. While I do love Chris Matthews, Rachel Maddow, Chris Hayes, and a few of the others on MSNBC, I wish they'd be a little less biased. For that, I go to CNN. I'm not sure what side the pundits there are on, and it's kind of refreshing.

CNN lean a little towards the left,but unlike MSNBC...way,way left.

Yeah, I'm a bleeding heart liberal and MSNBC is too left for me at times. Please just report the news and leave the drama out of it.
I miss Walter Cronkite

 

[Lula]

May, I understand being upset. What transpired was terrible, but perhaps until you were fully briefed on the events as they occurred, you perhaps might not have grounds to deem what was the right or wrong course of action. Do you put a further 20, 30, 40 troops in harm's way to save 4? Could the death toll have been higher if the military responded in the manner you obviously feel to be correct? NO ONE, Republican or Democrat, wants Americans to die. To suggest otherwise is cruel.

As for why people don't seemingly care more? Because sadly it's human nature. We've grown immune to pain and suffering that does not directly affect us. Famines kill millions, little girls have unsanitary and agonizing circumcisions, and 800,000 people were openly slaughtered in the 1994 Rwandan genocide. Ask an American what they've done about those things, past watching Hotel Rwanda because Oprah told them to - if they can find Rwanda or Libya on a map or identify their ethnic groups, if they can name countries where genital mutilation occurs and at what age. People don't give a crap about atrocities because they are simply not affected. Gas being $4/gallon is the end of the bloody world while mothers a world away must actually decide which child to feed today. 4 Americans dying? Terrible, but it pales in comparison to the other grievances that Americans (and other nationalities as well, of course) manage to ignore on a permanent basis.

Great post.

 

[zoebartlett]

Great post, Justginger!

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="Lula|
Yeah, I'm a bleeding heart liberal and MSNBC is too left for me at times. Please just report the news and leave the drama out of it.
I miss Walter Cronkite [/quote]



WOW!! your that old?..

 

[zoebartlett]

Have all people become unable to discuss politics without agreeing to disagee? Could it be that television plays a role in the polarization? (You alluded to Fox News and MSNBC which gave me that idea.) I do not watch television myself, so I do not know how strongly television influences people's political views.

What do other posters think?

Deb/AGBF

Deb, I do think TV plays a role in polarization. I watch MSNBC and CNN. Most of the pundits I watch are definitely liberal, as most of the pundits on Fox are conservative. While I do love Chris Matthews, Rachel Maddow, Chris Hayes, and a few of the others on MSNBC, I wish they'd be a little less biased. For that, I go to CNN. I'm not sure what side the pundits there are on, and it's kind of refreshing.

CNN lean a little towards the left,but unlike MSNBC...way,way left.

That's what I thought but I honestly wasn't really sure. I'm totally clear on the people at MSNBC though.

 

[Gypsy]

I think there are a lot of horrors right now. And you can either get upset about all of them at once, and never leave the house. Or you can choose which horror you are most upset about. For me:

Legislation to help our veterans gain jobs when they come home was just struck down by Republicans yesterday. That wasn't mentioned. So I get the horror about those who died in Libya, but does anyone get mine for those who remain alive and are returning to a country that isn't doing everything this it can to make sure they can re-integrate after all they've done for us? Yes, Libya was a tragedy. I am not denying that. 4 people died. Thousands, however, are hurt by what happened to the bill yesterday. And more will be hurt till we get something in place to help our vetrans when they come home.

Anyway, someone else today put thing in perspective for me. There appear to be two main issues in this election: Rights and Money. How you vote depends on which you value more. For me, my rights are more important to me than money. My right to privacy, bodily integrity, and to my other personal liberties outweighs my desire to be doing better financially. No, I am not doing as well as I was 4 years ago. We've dealt with hardships in that time. Unemployment, illness... but we are starting to see economic growth in our geographical area and we are making up ground, yes I wish it was faster and better as I am sure we all do, but I am working again (though as a contractor not a full time employee). So I've been affected by the economy. Still don't think we'll ever own a home, and that concerns me, so do our bills which go up but never seem to come down. I commute to work and the gas prices make me wince. But, my rights are still more important to me than money. There is also the the issue that I've been on Romney's website and read his plans. And I don't see anything that makes me think his way will have the drastic financial turn around people are praying for under Romney. What I do I see a vague plan based on theories of economic growth but no real 'plan' that is actually actionable. But I do know FOR SURE that if he gets into office women and gay citizens will be worse off. To me that certainty outweighs any vague promises of better national financial performance.

 

[Lula]

[quote="Lula|
Yeah, I'm a bleeding heart liberal and MSNBC is too left for me at times. Please just report the news and leave the drama out of it.
I miss Walter Cronkite

WOW!! your that old?.. [/quote]

Yup.

 

[ksinger]

Hi,

It takes a while to catch up on the reading. I am going back to answer a few things. Gas prices in our and other countries are contingent on the taxes gov't bodies place on them, In the US, the taxes are low. Thats what we are used to and you see what happens when prices rise. In Europe the are taxed higher to discourage overuse, and along with that they built smaller cars, so they an drive , but get better mileage on their cars. Oil is sold at market prices around the world.


Cutting Gov't expenditures is one way of reducing the size of Gov't. In my state we are almost bankrupt. Finally, the gov't has raised taxes, tripling mine, but beginning the cuts necessary to have a sustainable future. They have cut doing rootcanals and putting caps on teeth for adults who are considered poor. They stopping paying for eyeglasses every yr for adults who are considered poor. They reduced the food stamp benefit.(those are what I know about). Pretty good benefits don't you think? I don't know how many PHDs married to college graduates have their maternity care and delivery paid for , but I suspect if one state does there are others, probably mine. This yr on the ballot we voted for a much harder procedure to raise any state pensions. That, to me is cutting gov't


I have just found out from ksingers posts that i am poor. I just don't know what to think about that. I earn less than that 51,000
the amount ksinger uses for i heap payents. (I thought they are different for each state and usually are 115% or120% of the poverty level.) I even have a dependant. 17% of the pop. is considered poor so you can use your way of interpreting, but I pay as much of a % of my income as Romney does, and, Pay $3700 for medical insurance and paid out 5,000 for 2 of my sons teeth to be saved. These are my responsibilty.

I do not know how the future will turn out, but Obama did exactly lkike George Bush when he hired mostly Bill Clinton staff, just as GB hired Richard Nixons staff. Both show neither ready for the Presidency. New Ideas are needed. Not the same old.

Annette

Annette,

Those numbers I posted with that link, were median incomes by state, with 60%'s of those next to each one. It is not my data and I'm not interpreting it. I'm posting it. There is far too much feeling and surmising and not enough hard numbers floating around. That is US Census data used by the LHEAP program, it didn't say how it was used. I'm sure they use quite a bunch of data, and knowing median state incomes is probably useful in some way or another.

The 51,000-ish thousand was the national median for a family of 4, unrelated to the info I posted that referred to the LHEAP program. You are correct though, LHEAP does use a percentage - of the federally defined poverty level.
(link to actual LHEAP site)

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/divisions/dhcr/offices/heausfincomefact.html

From the site...
"To be eligible, a household gross income must be at or below 175% of the Federal Poverty Level" See numbers below. So for a household of 2 (since you said you had one legal dependent in the eyes of tax law), you would not be able to gross more than 2,522 a month or 30,264 per year in order to qualify.

While you make under the national median for a family of 4, you are not a family of 4, or you don't indicate that you are. Just being at or below that median does not mean you're poor by the government standard of poor, or even by your state standard. And as you see from the fact that you are still paying taxes, you aren't "officially" poor. Please don't think that doesn't mean don't feel for you if you're struggling, but according to the government, you get to pay taxes.

Here is a link to data I found for median incomes for families of 1, 2, 3, and 4, by state. That should give you more detail of what is median for you and your state. For 2 people households it ranges from about 44,000 - 74,000 depending on state. A large variance.

http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/20111101/bci_data/median_income_table.htm

 

[Mayk]

That's fine Zoe. I'm done. It was ok for Freake to attack me... I defended myself. I'm out no worries. Probably out all together.

 

[ForteKitty]

That's fine Zoe. I'm done. It was ok for Freake to attack me... I defended myself. I'm out no worries. Probably out all together.

Freke corrected your spelling, and in turn you attacked her personally. Rationalize it all you want, but as someone who's reading this thread for the first time, you appeared to be out of line. GBCPS is getting really old.

 

[Dancing Fire]

That's fine Zoe. I'm done. It was ok for Freake to attack me... I defended myself. I'm out no worries. Probably out all together.

calm down MayK. come Nov. 6 we'll have the last laugh.Obama Mania is over ...

 

[hlmr]

That's fine Zoe. I'm done. It was ok for Freake to attack me... I defended myself. I'm out no worries. Probably out all together.

I don't think you should be done or out altogether, just because someone disagreed with you and you felt "attacked". Back on page four of this thread I could have felt the same about you when you repeatedly something Holly said to me, but in all fairness, everyone should have a voice here, as everyone's opinion is important. Beebrisk has been addressing almost everyone's comments on her own, and she's still hanging in to say what she thinks needs to be said. Sometimes we just have to step back and realize it is really not as personal as we think it is. Even if it gets emotional sometimes, we should listen to everyone's point of view and not overreact. Not saying it's easy, but we all should at least attempt to do that.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I will say that I was not preaching to you about how you can't change my mind. That was a general statement to everyone. I'm not going to change DancingFire's stance. He's not going to change mine. I still like the guy, even if he asks to see my boobs far too often.

And of course I'm not happy that people died! I'm pointing out the ignorance of your average American.

But thanks for making it personal.

and that's the way it should be!. i mean, who am i to change your mind.anyway, Freke your state will go to Obama.

Yes it will. That's because we share a state now DF.

But yes, I think that NM is more violet that purple this year.

ok, Ca 55 + NM 5 + IL 20 = 70 Electoral Votes for Obama...

 

[Dancing Fire]

That's fine Zoe. I'm done. It was ok for Freake to attack me... I defended myself. I'm out no worries. Probably out all together.

I don't think you should be done or out altogether, just because someone disagreed with you and you felt "attacked". Back on page four of this thread I could have felt the same about you when you repeatedly something Holly said to me, but in all fairness, everyone should have a voice here, as everyone's opinion is important. Beebrisk has been addressing almost everyone's comments on her own, and she's still hanging in to say what she thinks needs to be said. Sometimes we just have to step back and realize it is really not as personal as we think it is. Even if it gets emotional sometimes, we should listen to everyone's point of view and not overreact. Not saying it's easy, but we all should at least attempt to do that.

please feel free to attack me b/c i have thick skins...

 

[hlmr]

That's fine Zoe. I'm done. It was ok for Freake to attack me... I defended myself. I'm out no worries. Probably out all together.

I don't think you should be done or out altogether, just because someone disagreed with you and you felt "attacked". Back on page four of this thread I could have felt the same about you when you repeatedly something Holly said to me, but in all fairness, everyone should have a voice here, as everyone's opinion is important. Beebrisk has been addressing almost everyone's comments on her own, and she's still hanging in to say what she thinks needs to be said. Sometimes we just have to step back and realize it is really not as personal as we think it is. Even if it gets emotional sometimes, we should listen to everyone's point of view and not overreact. Not saying it's easy, but we all should at least attempt to do that.

please feel free to attack me b/c i have thick skins...

Yes, you do have those DF, and a few stirring spoons to go with! lol

 

[ksinger]

Anyone who gets their knickers in a twist about ANYTHING said so far in this thread, would not have survived 10 seconds in the ATW days. This thread is kind and gentle enough to rock a baby to sleep compared to that stuff.

 

[hlmr]

Anyone who gets their knickers in a twist about ANYTHING said so far in this thread, would not have survived 10 seconds in the ATW days. This thread is kind and gentle enough to rock a baby to sleep compared to that stuff.

LOL!! True enough!! I dared not enter back then.