are you gonna watch the you know what tonight?

[justginger]

That's fine Zoe. I'm done. It was ok for Freake to attack me... I defended myself. I'm out no worries. Probably out all together.

I don't think you should be done or out altogether, just because someone disagreed with you and you felt "attacked". Back on page four of this thread I could have felt the same about you when you repeatedly something Holly said to me, but in all fairness, everyone should have a voice here, as everyone's opinion is important. Beebrisk has been addressing almost everyone's comments on her own, and she's still hanging in to say what she thinks needs to be said. Sometimes we just have to step back and realize it is really not as personal as we think it is. Even if it gets emotional sometimes, we should listen to everyone's point of view and not overreact. Not saying it's easy, but we all should at least attempt to do that.

please feel free to attack me b/c i have thick skins...

Yes, you do have those DF, and a few stirring spoons to go with! lol

LOL, too true on both points.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Anyone who gets their knickers in a twist about ANYTHING said so far in this thread, would not have survived 10 seconds in the ATW days. This thread is kind and gentle enough to rock a baby to sleep compared to that stuff.

hey,i survived the 2008 ATW election thread... i was the first to congrat all the Obama supporter,but this Nov. i'll make them eat crow...

 

[ksinger]

Anyone who gets their knickers in a twist about ANYTHING said so far in this thread, would not have survived 10 seconds in the ATW days. This thread is kind and gentle enough to rock a baby to sleep compared to that stuff.

LOL!! True enough!! I dared not enter back then.

Yeah, 2008 was a crazy year. ATW place was a place that kinda reflected the turmoil in my personal life at the time. I know I wasn't myself to large degree. To give you an idea, I was reunited with my love of 28 years, married, and then 3 weeks later my mother died after a lingering degenerative illness. A crazy, emotional, roller-coaster year.

I'm nicer now.

sorta....

 

[hlmr]

Anyone who gets their knickers in a twist about ANYTHING said so far in this thread, would not have survived 10 seconds in the ATW days. This thread is kind and gentle enough to rock a baby to sleep compared to that stuff.

LOL!! True enough!! I dared not enter back then.

Yeah, 2008 was a crazy year. ATW place was a place that kinda reflected the turmoil in my personal life at the time. I know I wasn't myself to large degree. To give you an idea, I was reunited with my love of 28 years, married, and then 3 weeks later my mother died after a lingering degenerative illness. A crazy, emotional, roller-coaster year.

I'm nicer now.

sorta....

Not an easy time, for sure. Living life, especially during tumultuous times, makes us stronger and smarter but also less dogmatic. I guess it kind of kicks our stuffing around until it settles more simply, gratefully and aware of what's most important.

 

[Skippy123]

Anyone who gets their knickers in a twist about ANYTHING said so far in this thread, would not have survived 10 seconds in the ATW days. This thread is kind and gentle enough to rock a baby to sleep compared to that stuff.

LOL!! True enough!! I dared not enter back then.

Yeah, 2008 was a crazy year. ATW place was a place that kinda reflected the turmoil in my personal life at the time. I know I wasn't myself to large degree. To give you an idea, I was reunited with my love of 28 years, married, and then 3 weeks later my mother died after a lingering degenerative illness. A crazy, emotional, roller-coaster year.

I'm nicer now.

sorta....

aw hugs, you did go through a lot. You have always been nice, lady!

 

[AGBF]

Anyone who gets their knickers in a twist about ANYTHING said so far in this thread, would not have survived 10 seconds in the ATW days. This thread is kind and gentle enough to rock a baby to sleep compared to that stuff.

LOL!! True enough!! I dared not enter back then.

Yeah, 2008 was a crazy year. ATW place was a place that kinda reflected the turmoil in my personal life at the time. I know I wasn't myself to large degree. To give you an idea, I was reunited with my love of 28 years, married, and then 3 weeks later my mother died after a lingering degenerative illness. A crazy, emotional, roller-coaster year.

I'm nicer now.

sorta....

I don't even remember it as a bumpy ride and I was in the thick of it. I don't think I realized how horrible your life was back then, Karen! I had-by November-just survived some of the worst experiences of my life: in January my (then) 15 year-old daughter made her first suicide attempt; when she was in the hospital we had to have our arthritic 11 year-old yellow Lab, Biscuit, euthanized because he was in pain; then I had to take my mentally ill daughter to Connecticut with me because my mother was in and out of a hospital and nursing home with a progressive illness. In May, while my daughter and I were living there, and my mother was dying, my daughter made another serious suicide attempt and damaged her liver for which she was hospitalized. I got the news of my mother's death in the psychiatric hospital where my daughter had been moved and I was in a conference with my daughter and her psychiatrist!

Any fights on ATW didn't worry me. Or if they did and I got grumpy, I don't remember it. I know that sometimes when I got crazy in the old days Karl (Storm) used to send me gentle e-mails asking if I was OK. It was his way of saying, "You sound insane. Maybe you shouldn't be posting." And he was right! I thank God for Karl and Lisa (Kaleigh) and Skippy and so many other Pricescope regulars who have helped me over the years! I should probably start a gratitude thread in Hangout!!! Pricescope has seen me through a heck of a lot!

Deb/AGBF

 

[Skippy123]

aww huge hugs for that tough year DEB, I could post I am grateful for you as well my friend!!

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Anyone who gets their knickers in a twist about ANYTHING said so far in this thread, would not have survived 10 seconds in the ATW days. This thread is kind and gentle enough to rock a baby to sleep compared to that stuff.

hey,i survived the 2008 ATW election thread... i was the first to congrat all the Obama supporter,but this Nov. i'll make them eat crow...

It isn't who wins the election who serves crow, but how things are, 4 years from now.

 

[iheartscience]

Anyone who gets their knickers in a twist about ANYTHING said so far in this thread, would not have survived 10 seconds in the ATW days. This thread is kind and gentle enough to rock a baby to sleep compared to that stuff.

SERIOUSLY. I miss those days!

 

[beebrisk]

Maybe because it's LIbYa? Libya.

And really, its probably because it's far away. The economy, the unemployment rate, women's reproductive choices, healthcare, etc, that is all HERE. It's terrible that people lost their lives in Benghazi, but most people don't even read or watch the news, so there are LOT of people around the USA that don't even know about it.


I highly doubt that anyone here is going to change anyone else's minds. For instance, I already voted. You can't change my mind or my vote.

Yes. It's Libya. And three men who represented the President of the United States were brutally murdered there and dragged through the streets of Benghazi--But only after pleading with the State Dept for weeks to ramp up security. They knew they were in grave danger and they were trying to get their colleagues in the states to pay attention!. Their deaths at the hands' of those wretched militants could have been avoided, but repeated requests for help went unheeded. That--THAT is the direct responsibility of the President and his White House.. Their first priority, the most important part of their job, is to keep Americans safe from the enemy. They failed miserably and four good men paid the ultimate price for POTUS's and Hilary's utter incompetence.

What made the entire thing worse was the cover-up. So as not to get caught leaving Stevens and crew out to dry (their emailed requests for help are available online) they put out some inane story about a You Tube video. One that had been online for a couple of months before the attacks and had about 300 hits in total. So what we have here is the horrific tale of a President saving his own arse by lying and insulting the intelligence of the American people. Not surprising though, coming from a guy who's been coddled and patronized and gone unquestioned his entire adult life. I'm sure he just figured we'd "buy it".

Bottom line is this: Yes, it's far away and there are other more pressing issues at hand when it comes our everyday lives here in the states. But it's the President's handling of the situation that is what is so genuinely upsetting to so many people. Read the emails from Ambassador Stevens and you'll see how, with one phone call, he might still be alive today. This is our President, the Commander in Chief and he has shown us, in striking detail, what he's made of. But it's not just this one time, it's a whole series of incidents that he's handled like the amateur he is.

People DO care about this. People want the men and women in the WH to have a grasp on their job. Instead it's just an endless reel of the Keystone Cops.

You're right about some people not knowing anything about it. But that's no surprise since the in-the-tank press has barely reported it. The whole thing is a disgrace, from beginning to end.

Well, the Keystone Cops managed to get Osama bin Laden and the Republicans have ignored that for over a year. The problem, as I see it, is that the conflict in Libya is just that -- a conflict, not a declared war. That changes the dynamic in terms of the types of responses the U.S. has at its disposal. It also means that most Americans are not paying attention to these events the way they would if this was a declared-by-Congress war. I'm not saying that is right; it's just the way things tend to play out. We cannot just go in there as an invading army, though perhaps we should have. These things take time to sort out. I don't think anyone knows the whole truth, even considering the alarming information in the e-mails. The fact is covert wars, conflicts, and declared wars are disorganized and ugly and prone to error and miscalculation, by their very nature. I've always hated the term "friendly fire" and that is not what this situation is by any means, but I use that as an example of how things can go horribly wrong in war. Unless you have inside knowledge about what happened in that embassy, I think it's premature to point fingers. That it was a tragedy is obvious. But for either side to use this tragedy for political gain before the facts are in is just wrong. And the ambassador's mother said as much.

No one is talking about war. No one is talking about invading. What we are talking about here is the president's refusal to save the lives of men that serve this country, knowing full well that they were in danger and begging for help that was readily available.

I agree, we don't have "inside" knowledge. We never do. But we DO have Susan Rice and Jay Carney ON RECORD several times (at least 3 for Rice who made the rounds of the Sunday shows) saying (with great conviction) that this was a "spontaneous" uprising in response to an anti-Islamic You Tube video. Even worse, we got Hilary Clinton making an APOLOGY on Mid-East television for the "disgusting video" responsible for sparking the attack. . Just a day or so after that, Obama told Joy Behar "We don't know what started it...we're still investigating".

The only reason there's "finger pointing" is because we've been taken for fools. We have an administration that concocts stories about a stupid video while ALSO telling us the situation is "under investigation". How can these responses NOT cause suspicion?...And anger!? That's why people are pointing fingers. It's not premature at all....It's a reaction to conflicting statements written, reviewed, cleared and declared by the White House.

The people who are actually "politicizing" this are the folks in the media. If their legs weren't so tingled at the thought of Barack Obama's second term, they would be asking these questions too! Believe me, if it was a Republican at the helm, they'd be down his/her throat. Mitt Romney stayed away from the subject at the foreign policy debate when he could have gone after Obama full force.

Really, is it too much for the people of this country to want to know how our president handles an attack on our military and embassy personell? The man is up for re-election in 10 days. This is a LEGITIMATE question and we are LEGITIMATELY pissed off that no one, not even the man who is ultimately responsible can seem to give us a straight story. And, we are pissed off that some of our "greatest" journalists aren't even asking the questions!

Yes...Bin Laden is dead. But we've also been told that Al Queda has been hobbled and is retreating. Another load of "malarkey" as we've since found out. It seems that's the best this White House has to offer us and it's woefully inadequate and insulting.

 

[loriken214]

I want to know why we can't take care of America instead of trying to kiss the rest of the world's butt! Why do we owe China so much money? All of this makes no sense to me and I don't see things changing any time soon.

Lori

 

[justginger]

I want to know why we can't take care of America instead of trying to kiss the rest of the world's butt! Why do we owe China so much money? All of this makes no sense to me and I don't see things changing any time soon.

Lori

I think technically China owns a great amount of the United States now, in the form of debts that have been sold off by American companies. If the Chinese investors were to all simultaneously ask for repayment, the economy would go into a free fall (as I understand it). We keep China happy to keep America financially healthy.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I want to know why we can't take care of America instead of trying to kiss the rest of the world's butt! Why do we owe China so much money? All of this makes no sense to me and I don't see things changing any time soon.

Lori

because we spent more than we take home.

 

[beebrisk]

I want to know why we can't take care of America instead of trying to kiss the rest of the world's butt! Why do we owe China so much money? All of this makes no sense to me and I don't see things changing any time soon.

Lori

I think technically China owns a great amount of the United States now, in the form of debts that have been sold off by American companies. If the Chinese investors were to all simultaneously ask for repayment, the economy would go into a free fall (as I understand it). We keep China happy to keep America financially healthy.

Or in other words, we're enslaved to them.
The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.
-Proverbs 22.7

 

[Lula]

I want to know why we can't take care of America instead of trying to kiss the rest of the world's butt! Why do we owe China so much money? All of this makes no sense to me and I don't see things changing any time soon.

Lori

because we spent more than we take home.

Because American consumers have developed an insatiable appetite for cheaply made clothes, furniture, toys, etc., and we buy too much Chinese-made junk at Walmart and allow our companies to send jobs overseas. We import more than we export. But the one thing that we are good at exporting is American treasury bonds. Despite our woes, the U.S. is still seen as a safe place for foreign investment.

 

[ksinger]

I want to know why we can't take care of America instead of trying to kiss the rest of the world's butt! Why do we owe China so much money? All of this makes no sense to me and I don't see things changing any time soon.

Lori

because we spent more than we take home.

Because American consumers have developed an insatiable appetite for cheaply made clothes, furniture, toys, etc., and we buy too much Chinese-made junk at Walmart and allow our companies to send jobs overseas. We import more than we export. But the one thing that we are good at exporting is American treasury bonds. Despite our woes, the U.S. is still seen as a safe place for foreign investment.

Lula, I'm finally digging into your article. It has started a great conversation between my econ-weenie-history-teacher husband and me. I've been bellowing parts of it to him as he shaves. (reading to each other things that we find interesting is something of a morning ritual around here) His comment, "Ah, the classic economic scenario: guns or butter. And off we go...

Back to reading some more. Thanks again for the link!

 

[Abril]

Anyone who gets their knickers in a twist about ANYTHING said so far in this thread, would not have survived 10 seconds in the ATW days. This thread is kind and gentle enough to rock a baby to sleep compared to that stuff.

hey,i survived the 2008 ATW election thread... i was the first to congrat all the Obama supporter,but this Nov. i'll make them eat crow...

Sorry, but I gotta go with Nate Silver:

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/

Sucks to be a republican. Obama's gonna win.

 

[Lula]

I want to know why we can't take care of America instead of trying to kiss the rest of the world's butt! Why do we owe China so much money? All of this makes no sense to me and I don't see things changing any time soon.

Lori

because we spent more than we take home.

Because American consumers have developed an insatiable appetite for cheaply made clothes, furniture, toys, etc., and we buy too much Chinese-made junk at Walmart and allow our companies to send jobs overseas. We import more than we export. But the one thing that we are good at exporting is American treasury bonds. Despite our woes, the U.S. is still seen as a safe place for foreign investment.

Lula, I'm finally digging into your article. It has started a great conversation between my econ-weenie-history-teacher husband and me. I've been bellowing parts of it to him as he shaves. (reading to each other things that we find interesting is something of a morning ritual around here) His comment, "Ah, the classic economic scenario: guns or butter. And off we go...

Back to reading some more. Thanks again for the link!

Yes, it is indeed a tale of guns and butter. Glad you are enjoying it-- although "enjoy" might not be the best choice of words.

I owe my interest in economics and economic theories to the good fortune of having taken Dr. Robert Lampman's undergraduate macroeconomics course. What a brilliant man he was. http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/08/b...6-economist-who-helped-in-war-on-poverty.html

The institute on poverty he founded is still in existence http://www.irp.wisc.edu/aboutirp/history.htm. It's easy to denigrate the efforts of people like Dr. Lampman now, because these initiatives have been in place long enough (almost 50 years) that several generations have grown up never knowing the level of poverty that existed in this country in the first half of the last century, especially poverty among elderly and rural populations. These programs improved the standard of living for all citizens of the United States. Could they be tweaked and improved? Of course, but Romney -- and especially Ryan -- want to dismantle the entire system and put in place a for-profit system that benefits the private sector over private citizens.

What bothers me the most is that many of the people that buy into the anti-tax, anti-government sentiment do not understand the history behind the politics. The anti-tax movement began with Nixon. Along with the Southern strategy. Both are dirty little tactics used to dupe voters into voting a certain way (usually against their interests). If you want a great 800-plus-page read that clearly outlines both of these strategies, I recommend Nixonland by historian Rick Perlstein. You'll quickly learn -- oh, by about page 30 -- that the campaign rhetoric that Romney and Ryan and Fox news are spouting isn't new at all, and was brilliantly executed by a man most see as one of the least transparent presidents of our time -- Richard Nixon.

If you're still not convinced that Romney-Ryan are not generating any new ideas, take a look at the "Starve the Beast" section http://www.governmentisgood.com/articles.php?aid=14on this excellent site http://www.governmentisgood.com/articles.php?aid=17. If the starve the beast approach appeals to you, and if you think it will benefit you and your family, then good, you can in good conscience cast your vote for Romney-Ryan.

Personally, I live by the words of Oliver Wendell Holmes: "I like paying taxes, with them I buy civilization.”

I am not anti-business; I owned two small businesses and I worked for several small businesses before I went back to school for my graduate degree. But I do not want to live in a country that is run like a business. That's a plutocracy not a democracy. An earlier post by Gypsy captured the key issues of this election clearly -- which do you value more, money or freedom. I'm firmly on the freedom side, and will vote for an imperfect candidate who's human and made a few mistakes over two unknowns who are direct descendants -- politically anyway -- of Richard Nixon.

 

[ksinger]

I want to know why we can't take care of America instead of trying to kiss the rest of the world's butt! Why do we owe China so much money? All of this makes no sense to me and I don't see things changing any time soon.

Lori

because we spent more than we take home.

Because American consumers have developed an insatiable appetite for cheaply made clothes, furniture, toys, etc., and we buy too much Chinese-made junk at Walmart and allow our companies to send jobs overseas. We import more than we export. But the one thing that we are good at exporting is American treasury bonds. Despite our woes, the U.S. is still seen as a safe place for foreign investment.

Lula, I'm finally digging into your article. It has started a great conversation between my econ-weenie-history-teacher husband and me. I've been bellowing parts of it to him as he shaves. (reading to each other things that we find interesting is something of a morning ritual around here) His comment, "Ah, the classic economic scenario: guns or butter. And off we go...

Back to reading some more. Thanks again for the link!

Yes, it is indeed a tale of guns and butter. Glad you are enjoying it-- although "enjoy" might not be the best choice of words.

I owe my interest in economics and economic theories to the good fortune of having taken Dr. Robert Lampman's undergraduate macroeconomics course. What a brilliant man he was. http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/08/b...6-economist-who-helped-in-war-on-poverty.html

The institute on poverty he founded is still in existence http://www.irp.wisc.edu/aboutirp/history.htm. It's easy to denigrate the efforts of people like Dr. Lampman now, because these initiatives have been in place long enough (almost 50 years) that several generations have grown up never knowing the level of poverty that existed in this country in the first half of the last century, especially poverty among elderly and rural populations. These programs improved the standard of living for all citizens of the United States. Could they be tweaked and improved? Of course, but Romney -- and especially Ryan -- want to dismantle the entire system and put in place a for-profit system that benefits the private sector over private citizens.

What bothers me the most is that many of the people that buy into the anti-tax, anti-government sentiment do not understand the history behind the politics. The anti-tax movement began with Nixon. Along with the Southern strategy. Both are dirty little tactics used to dupe voters into voting a certain way (usually against their interests). If you want a great 800-plus-page read that clearly outlines both of these strategies, I recommend Nixonland by historian Rick Perlstein. You'll quickly learn -- oh, by about page 30 -- that the campaign rhetoric that Romney and Ryan and Fox news are spouting isn't new at all, and was brilliantly executed by a man most see as one of the least transparent presidents of our time -- Richard Nixon.

If you're still not convinced that Romney-Ryan are not generating any new ideas, take a look at the "Starve the Beast" section http://www.governmentisgood.com/articles.php?aid=14on this excellent site http://www.governmentisgood.com/articles.php?aid=17. If the starve the beast approach appeals to you, and if you think it will benefit you and your family, then good, you can in good conscience cast your vote for Romney-Ryan.

Personally, I live by the words of Oliver Wendell Holmes: "I like paying taxes, with them I buy civilization.”

I am not anti-business; I owned two small businesses and I worked for several small businesses before I went back to school for my graduate degree. But I do not want to live in a country that is run like a business. That's a plutocracy not a democracy. An earlier post by Gypsy captured the key issues of this election clearly -- which do you value more, money or freedom. I'm firmly on the freedom side, and will vote for an imperfect candidate who's human and made a few mistakes over two unknowns who are direct descendants -- politically anyway -- of Richard Nixon.

Ah. But we'd have so much to discuss. I wasn't an econ aficionado until my husband started schooling me. And then we got a friend who has a masters in econ from the University of Edinburgh. It makes for some very interesting and informative conversations. Depressing ones though, because it shows what a tangled web it all is, which is why like you, I'm not sure there is much to be hoped for other than slowing it down a bit. Basically, we're screwed.

Another fun one to read is "The Myth of the Rational Market: A History of Risk, Reward, and Delusion on Wall Street", which details the history of economic thought and how that oh-so wrong idea came to dominate, and how economics came to dominate everything pretty much. Follow that with "What's Not For Sale" a book about how market mentality is taking over traditionally non-market areas of life, and you have another set of the "enjoyable" reads.

Hubs said he's heard of Nixonland, although he hasn't read it. We do however, have pretty much everything Kevin Phillips has written, so the Southern Strategy is well covered in this house. I'm currently reading "The Price of Inequality" by Sitglitz, also a good read that lays it out pretty well.

And yeah, I like paying taxes too. It keeps me from having to step on starving children on my way to and from the car....

 

[MrBlingtastic]

Firstly, I am very pleased to be posting on PS (notice the number of posts ). I have heard much of this forum from my wife … (no more on this topic and her bling) and am impressed by the level of compassion, understanding, intelligence and overall dialogue. Secondly, politics: phew!! I am a proud American and feel compelled to contribute to the dialogue. Some have very passionate views...
I have lived abroad for many years and when I say “I am proud to be American”, I am very clear about what this means. America’s place in history is that it was the first time where decisions about a country and its people were not all done by those heredity privilege, the ruling class etc. at least that was the direction. The reason people risk their lives to get here, be it be crossing from Mexico or climbing into a shipping container was on the premise that there was a least the possibility of a better life based on meritocracy.
If you are voting for your own tax break, it makes sense. But if you are voting for the success of America as a concept, then the direction we are headed is not good. If the GOP is successful, either in winning the Presidential election or stopping government in general then we as a country have problems. We need to decide as a country whether it’s about all of us, or only those that manage to be in power and have the means to get there. Who has the lobbyists, middle America? Money = re-election, full stop. And now, there are no limits on the game …
If we want to understand what top down societies look like take a look at Indonesia, Mexico, Philippines etc. They have been waiting for it to trickle down for quite a while and they love political dynasties too, but to a limit. The US is now developing its own. History is littered with fallen empires that were ruled by a political elite, over-extended foreign military action and failed to act decisively when needed. America is THE Superpower now, but we cannot afford it. However, the world still looks to us to carry and deliver this role – problem. But, the GOP does not have the answer. Romney’s comments on foreign policy were embarrassing, if not dangerous.
Specifics: Benghazi – yes, it appear there was a failure in the intelligence function, bad decisions, and reliance on established practice. Stop there: does this describe WWII, the Vietnam War, Sept 11th, the Iraqi War, the 2008 financial disaster, why Osama bin Laden was not taken down sooner, or Benghazi? Take a step back ... where are we going as a country? Efficient execution of the role we hold or mere protection of the .001 percent. If you belong to the .001 percent, I get it.
We need to keep jobs in America. Don’t blame China, we shipped the jobs there because we wanted cheap stuff, because we needed cheap stuff due to the dwindling purchasing power of the American, now dual-income, family. Who was the first American president to gather business leaders to find out how to keep jobs in the US – Obama. The GOP promises that it will trickle down … Again, go ask Mexico, India etc. if it has trickled down yet. And where was Bush in this election cycle describing his success after 8 years. Please do not ask about upwardly mobility in the US v. other countries (this shocked me).
We need to make it as a country, all of us. Otherwise we do not need to look too far to see what will happen. Ask yourself – which country is doing it right which model is working; there are no perfect answers. Thank you if you read this far. I am impressed with some the information I have discovered in this thread. I truly hope we all make it …

 

[HollyS]

I must have missed something, but when did Governor Romney align himself "with people who say legitimate rape" never results in pregnancy?" I believe pretty much everyone in the Republican party distanced themselves from him, and Romney made it clear he did not share his misguided beliefs.

As far as seeing pregnant teenagers in the ER, my daughter volunteers in Womans and Infants hospital. And many of those teenagers have readily admitted they had access to birth control but either did not want to ruin the moment or could not be bothered. And this does say alot about today vs the 1950's. Many people today do not want to take responsibility for their actions. Why bother when the government will just bail you out.

Well, I used Akin's quote and Romney distanced himself from Akin, but perhaps I should have quoted Mourdock instead that pregnancy from rape is "God's will." Romney supports him. So wrong quote, same point.

Personal responsibility is of course a factor. However, I think the abstinence-only disaster is partially responsible for the lack of use of birth control even when we have access. There are so many myths and misconceptions about sex, birth control, condoms, etc, and these are being perpetuated by our schools. And that is primarily a Republican agenda.

ETA: What really scares me is that so many women are dismissing the slow chipping away at our rights and failing to understand the slippery slope we are on with a Republican-controlled Washington. Any woman who votes for Romney is voting for her own subjugation. The Handmaid's Tale is coming.

Obviously, I'm a woman. In no way do I feel my rights are being "chipped away". I have ALL the same rights, privileges AND responsibilities as as FI and every other man. Sure, my plumbing is different so some issues are separate, but I'm NOT unequal.

Romney legislated from the center in MA and I don't expect anything different from him if he becomes president. I will not be subjugated by voting for him. Despite the propaganda from the press and Sandra Fluke, I don't fear turning into a handmaiden, a Stepford Wife or a 2nd class citizen.

Perhaps if I could come up with one right bestowed on men that I don't have as a woman I'd feel differently about that. Perhaps if I didn't feel as if I was just as smart or strong as any man and able to stand up for myself I'd feel differently. But then, that would just be admitting I'm weak. That would just be admitting I am a victim--simply because I'm a woman. After all, isn't that what the women's movement has tried to teach us for the last 4 decades or so??

Speaking of the women's movement, they really ought to get on Obama about paying his female staff about 18% less than the men who work for him.

Abortion has survived 5 Republican presidents. It's still the law of the land. It's not going anywhere. Neither is access to birth control. Every Target and Walmart in America dispenses it for about $9/month. There's help available if that's not affordable. Thanks to Title X, low income and uninsured women have much greater access to free or low cost BC than they ever did before the law was signed. That law by the way, was conceived and signed by.....a Republican president.

Despite the current administration's politics of fear, I don't expect to be vacuuming the house in my dress and pearls, while preparing dinner and tending to my man's every last need. No one I know will be dying in a back ally abortion in this country.

This administration has been masterful at playing to the emotions of women with scare tactics and lies but pandering and patronizing does not equality make.

You know, I've always liked you, but I think we could be besties.

Thank you for being articulate without the snark that others here have freely dispensed.

But, then, they worship at the feet of a man who would use an interview in a mainstream publication to call his opponent a "bullshitter". He's a class act. I can see where they would have reason to be impressed.

Maybe he's merely feeling desperate and striking out. I believe his days are numbered. Gee, I'm so sad.

 

[HollyS]

"It's just plain nutty! I never thought in my lifetime there would be a backlash against birth control." (MariaD)

Seriously??? Were you born after 1960?

There is NO serious backlash against birthcontrol - - outside of the Quiverfull movement and the likes of the Duggars. NONE.

Even Catholics use BC. They just don't confess it, 'cause even they aren't going to let a man in a dress (Pope) tell them what to do.

No one, in or out of the federal government, is telling you what you can do with your private parts and baby making equipment. And it's highly unlikely, to the point of being a never-gonna-happen scenario, that laws will ever be repealed or passed that would take your rights away. To think otherwise is to give into hyped up hysteria created by political parties to further their agenda. I prefer not to be a pawn in anyone's game. And I have sense enough to know when I'm being played.

 

[HollyS]

About the flip-flopping, I (and I think most democrats) see Obama's changing stances, particularly with regard to same-sex marriage, as an evolution of his true beliefs over time rather than a bait-and-switch move. Romney's flip-flopping seems much less sincere considering he made such huge shifts in such a short time.

Yes.I believe the President's views on gay marriage shifted once he saw and got to know his daughters' friends' (gay) parents.

It's interesting how Romney says something and then his advisers swoop in right afterward, telling us that he didn't really mean what he had just said. It's hard to keep up with him.

"Shifted" and "evolved"...and so conveniently during the election cycle!

we all know the President is desperate when he's running campaign ads about the 4 Bs... Mr. President, please run on your accomplishments in the past 4 yrs...

Big Bird
Bayonet
Binders

If that's all you've got in your arsenal, Mr. Prez, then lead with Big Bird!

 

[HollyS]

When the heck did being "rich" and "white" make a person inherently evil?

Mathew 19:24

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


As for the white part? Unsure about that but probably around 1600 when white people got together and agreed that the color of their skin makes them so superior to others that they felt justified in enslaving anyone who was NOT white. And that will endure until that sentiment-- that white= racial superiority goes away.

Really? Nothing else is working for Mr. Obama, so let's pull out the race card again?

Treadin' trodden trails.

 

[HollyS]

When the heck did being "rich" and "white" make a person inherently evil?

Ummm...I would say 1066. The Normans had invaded by then, so Robin Hood was probably in Sherwood Forest. I will go look it up.

Deb

Cute.

My favorite thing is coming to the "Premier Diamond & Jewelry Community" to find support for the president's demonization of the rich. After all, "at a certain point" he feels we've all probably "made enough money".

I think it's really very sad that he'd find this site repulsive, because I kinda like it! From now on, I think we should all respond to "upgrade" posts by asking "Did you really need that extra half-carat???"

My favorite thing is that *you* come to a diamond website to troll about politics. Your dedication to PS political threads is impressive. Your connection to reality is less impressive, though.

Uncalled for.
And typical.

 

[HollyS]

Maybe because it's LIbYa? Libya.

And really, its probably because it's far away. The economy, the unemployment rate, women's reproductive choices, healthcare, etc, that is all HERE. It's terrible that people lost their lives in Benghazi, but most people don't even read or watch the news, so there are LOT of people around the USA that don't even know about it.


I highly doubt that anyone here is going to change anyone else's minds. For instance, I already voted. You can't change my mind or my vote.

It's nice to know that this event means so little to you that you can shrug it off in favor of worrying over your already-in-place-and-protected-by-law birth control rights.

This attitude doesn't even deserve further comment, so I'll leave it there.

 

[Maria D]

"It's just plain nutty! I never thought in my lifetime there would be a backlash against birth control." (MariaD)

Seriously??? Were you born after 1960?

There is NO serious backlash against birthcontrol - - outside of the Quiverfull movement and the likes of the Duggars. NONE.

Even Catholics use BC. They just don't confess it, 'cause even they aren't going to let a man in a dress (Pope) tell them what to do.

No one, in or out of the federal government, is telling you what you can do with your private parts and baby making equipment. And it's highly unlikely, to the point of being a never-gonna-happen scenario, that laws will ever be repealed or passed that would take your rights away. To think otherwise is to give into hyped up hysteria created by political parties to further their agenda. I prefer not to be a pawn in anyone's game. And I have sense enough to know when I'm being played.

Yes, I was born in 1961 actually, you?

Right wing obfuscation of the morning after pill with RU 486 = backlash against birth control. Chipping away at roe vs wade = backlash against birth control. Abstinence only sex ed = backlash. I'm not being played, I am rightfully worried. Not for me, as I'm beyond he age of this being a concern, but for my daughter and her generation. Never gonna happen scenario? That's what I would have said about the law in TX requiring non medically necessary ultrasounds in order to terminate a pregnancy, which by the way, I and the law consider birth control and not murder. That scenario did happen so who is being played here?

If you had quoted my entire post you would have had the part where I mentioned that I'm a former catholic and assert that many Catholics use birth control. I don't really get your point there. Mine was that the edicts of the pope should not dictate the medical coverage of church run organizations that employ non Catholics.

 

[Lula]

"It's just plain nutty! I never thought in my lifetime there would be a backlash against birth control." (MariaD)

Seriously??? Were you born after 1960?

There is NO serious backlash against birthcontrol - - outside of the Quiverfull movement and the likes of the Duggars. NONE.

Even Catholics use BC. They just don't confess it, 'cause even they aren't going to let a man in a dress (Pope) tell them what to do.

No one, in or out of the federal government, is telling you what you can do with your private parts and baby making equipment. And it's highly unlikely, to the point of being a never-gonna-happen scenario, that laws will ever be repealed or passed that would take your rights away. To think otherwise is to give into hyped up hysteria created by political parties to further their agenda. I prefer not to be a pawn in anyone's game. And I have sense enough to know when I'm being played.

Yes, I was born in 1961 actually, you?

Right wing obfuscation of the morning after pill with RU 486 = backlash against birth control. Chipping away at roe vs wade = backlash against birth control. Abstinence only sex ed = backlash. I'm not being played, I am rightfully worried. Not for me, as I'm beyond he age of this being a concern, but for my daughter and her generation. Never gonna happen scenario? That's what I would have said about the law in TX requiring non medically necessary ultrasounds in order to terminate a pregnant, which by the way, I and the law consider birth control and not murder. That scenario did happen so who is being played here?

If you had quoted my entire post you would have had the part where I mentioned that I'm a former catholic and assert that many Catholics use birth control. I don't really get your point there. Mine was that the edicts of the pope should not dictate the medical coverage of church run organizations that employ non Catholics.

Good points, Maria. And I'd add this bit of recent news http://fox2now.com/2012/09/12/missouri-employers-can-now-opt-out-of-birth-control/
[Text]
JEFFERSON CITY, MO. (KTVI) – Missouri lawmakers again countermanded an Obamacare mandate to insurance companies to provide free contraception. Lawmakers Wednesday overrode Governor Jay Nixon’s veto of Senate Bill 749.
The Governor said the bill will become law in thirty days and the state will enforce it. The Governor had objected to the measure on several grounds including his belief it moved decisions about birth control from a woman and her family to insurance firms. “It’s a shame we’re still debating access to birth control in 2012,” Nixon said after the Republican controlled House and Senate found the two-thirds majorities needed to override.
State Senator John Lamping (R) Ladue, the bill’s sponsor, said his measure will protect religious beliefs and moral convictions in areas of health care.
Supporters of the federal mandate for free contraception opposed SB 749.
“We believe that all women, no matter where they work deserve the same access to birth control,” said Planned Parenthood spokeswoman Michelle Trupiano. She added, “Their boss should not be able to tell them what health care services they deserve.”
Lamping insisted access to birth control will not change. “What proponents of those types of services ..people who are against this bill …they just want somebody else to pay for those things. That’s what they are actually mandating,” he said.
The senator warned firms could simply opt out of providing any health care because of the government mandates. Organizations that have objected to the federal order include religious based charities, health care organizations and hospitals as well as the Catholic Church.
The Missouri law could put companies providing health care plans and insurance firms in the middle of a legal battle over whether a state law or a federal mandate takes precedence.
Missouri Senator Jolie Justus (D) Kansas City said during Senate debate called the measure a “cheap political trick that restates current law” and will force the state to spend taxpayer dollars to defend the new statute.
As of late Wednesday afternoon the Kansas City Labor Coalition of Union Women announced plans to seek a court injunction to stop implementation of the new law.


And this law has nothing to do with exempting religious organizations from covering their employees' contraception, which is allowed by law in many states. http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_ICC.pdf
The new Missouri law is "expansive" in that it allows all employers to make this decision.

 

[FrekeChild]

Maybe because it's LIbYa? Libya.

And really, its probably because it's far away. The economy, the unemployment rate, women's reproductive choices, healthcare, etc, that is all HERE. It's terrible that people lost their lives in Benghazi, but most people don't even read or watch the news, so there are LOT of people around the USA that don't even know about it.

I highly doubt that anyone here is going to change anyone else's minds. For instance, I already voted. You can't change my mind or my vote.

It's nice to know that this event means so little to you that you can shrug it off in favor of worrying over your already-in-place-and-protected-by-law birth control rights.

This attitude doesn't even deserve further comment, so I'll leave it there.

Oh Holly Holly Holly. That's not what I said, and you know it.

Again, lets revisit my above comment:
I'm implying that the general American public does not read the news or watch the news (CNN, MSNBC, Fox, whatever) and they are voting by a lot less (economy, the unemployment rate, women's reproductive choices, healthcare, etc) than the educated people discussing it here who are enlightened by many more issues.

I hit on a lot more than my birth control rights. Mine are currently protected for the next 6 years by the implant in my uterus anyway.

Don't go twisting the words I say to imply my attitude problem/lack of empathy/ignorance.

And for your information, I happen to have a very good friend who is currently living in a 3rd world country because her husband is a diplomat. This means plenty to me.

 

[Lula]

Firstly, I am very pleased to be posting on PS (notice the number of posts ). I have heard much of this forum from my wife … (no more on this topic and her bling) and am impressed by the level of compassion, understanding, intelligence and overall dialogue. Secondly, politics: phew!! I am a proud American and feel compelled to contribute to the dialogue. Some have very passionate views...
I have lived abroad for many years and when I say “I am proud to be American”, I am very clear about what this means. America’s place in history is that it was the first time where decisions about a country and its people were not all done by those heredity privilege, the ruling class etc. at least that was the direction. The reason people risk their lives to get here, be it be crossing from Mexico or climbing into a shipping container was on the premise that there was a least the possibility of a better life based on meritocracy.
If you are voting for your own tax break, it makes sense. But if you are voting for the success of America as a concept, then the direction we are headed is not good. If the GOP is successful, either in winning the Presidential election or stopping government in general then we as a country have problems. We need to decide as a country whether it’s about all of us, or only those that manage to be in power and have the means to get there. Who has the lobbyists, middle America? Money = re-election, full stop. And now, there are no limits on the game …
If we want to understand what top down societies look like take a look at Indonesia, Mexico, Philippines etc. They have been waiting for it to trickle down for quite a while and they love political dynasties too, but to a limit. The US is now developing its own. History is littered with fallen empires that were ruled by a political elite, over-extended foreign military action and failed to act decisively when needed. America is THE Superpower now, but we cannot afford it. However, the world still looks to us to carry and deliver this role – problem. But, the GOP does not have the answer. Romney’s comments on foreign policy were embarrassing, if not dangerous.
Specifics: Benghazi – yes, it appear there was a failure in the intelligence function, bad decisions, and reliance on established practice. Stop there: does this describe WWII, the Vietnam War, Sept 11th, the Iraqi War, the 2008 financial disaster, why Osama bin Laden was not taken down sooner, or Benghazi? Take a step back ... where are we going as a country? Efficient execution of the role we hold or mere protection of the .001 percent. If you belong to the .001 percent, I get it.
We need to keep jobs in America. Don’t blame China, we shipped the jobs there because we wanted cheap stuff, because we needed cheap stuff due to the dwindling purchasing power of the American, now dual-income, family. Who was the first American president to gather business leaders to find out how to keep jobs in the US – Obama. The GOP promises that it will trickle down … Again, go ask Mexico, India etc. if it has trickled down yet. And where was Bush in this election cycle describing his success after 8 years. Please do not ask about upwardly mobility in the US v. other countries (this shocked me).
We need to make it as a country, all of us. Otherwise we do not need to look too far to see what will happen. Ask yourself – which country is doing it right which model is working; there are no perfect answers. Thank you if you read this far. I am impressed with some the information I have discovered in this thread. I truly hope we all make it …

Welcome, Mr. Blingtastic!
I agree with you -- the Citizens United ruling has done immeasurable damage to our election process. Another unfortunate outcome of Citizens United is that businesses are now allowed to provide "political statements" to their employees. Coercion much? http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/27/us/politics/bosses-offering-timely-advice-how-to-vote.html?hp