Another OEC Question -- Pics Included!

[kennedy]

Hi all,

I am in the market for an OEC and came across this ring. The ring is platinum and features a 1.43 ct OEC, EGL (LA) certed as K, VS2. Total carat weight on the ring is 1.93. Price is $6500. I would have this ring sent to an appraiser and have the option to return for my money back. Any and all opinions welcome!

Here are details from the cert:

1.43 ct
K, VS2
7.26 x 6.91 x 4.55
Depth 64.2
Table 50
Crown 16.9
Pavilion 42.9
Girdle Very Thin to Sl Thick
Culet Medium
Polish Good
Symmetry Fair

Thanks in advance for your feedback and opinions!

 

[kennedy]

Another pic....

 

[kenny]

I'd ask the seller to send the stone to GIA or AGS for a reputable grading report.
EGL does not give accurate grades, so you don't know what the grades really are.
How can you know what a diamond is worth if you don't know what the clarity and color grades really are?

Also the setting and all the other diamonds look very white compared to the main stone.
I'd prefer the setting and side to not make the color look even lower.
Other settings can compliment warm-colored diamonds better IMHO.

 

[Amys Bling]

I think it's a beautiful stone. Like you said the fair price depends on the color and clarity. If you can return I would get it and send it out for appraisal ir grading and then if it came back lower-- try to negotiate.

 

[kennedy]

I think it's a beautiful stone. Like you said the fair price depends on the color and clarity. If you can return I would get it and send it out for appraisal ir grading and then if it came back lower-- try to negotiate.

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, this is my plan -- send to an appraiser (probably Neil Beatty) and renegotiate or return if diamond grading is way off.

Assuming EGL isn't wildy off, is this a fair price?

Do people find the setting too busy?

Does the diamond appear well cut? I want an OEC with a very crisp pattern.

 

[yennyfire]

I think you have a good plan. From the pics, the faceting looks very nice and the price is OK I think....

 

[kenny]

Assuming EGL isn't wildy off, is this a fair price?

 

[slg47]

Assuming EGL isn't wildy off, is this a fair price?

the problem is that you can't 'assume' anything.

 

[Amys Bling]

Assuming EGL isn't wildy off, is this a fair price?

the problem is that you can't 'assume' anything.

Very true, but that is why you need a good return policy.

 

[AnneinGA]

I think it's a very lovely stone and setting. You have a return plan in place. At worst, it's a flop. At best, it's just right. Sounds like you have nothing to lose - go for it!

 

[kelpie]

I think it looks nice. I actually love the setting. You shouldn't buy it expecting an K VS2 though...don't be surprised if the appraiser tells you it's an L-O/P SI2. I can tell from the pic it's not a K....I've bought a lot of old cuts off of pictures. Fortunately with old cuts it's often external blemishes that set the clarity grade, not internal inclusions. I would ask about the inclusions/chips/abrasions and for pics with less glare to get a good idea of the facet pattern. Personally, I do not sweat the grading for old cuts if they are bought cheap from a discounter like ebay. I either like them visually or I don't. I have seen OECs with much better symmetry/appealing facet pattern than this one. Although it's funny that I don't like them "perfect", the august vintage rounds aren't my thing at all.

 

[Gypsy]

I'm with Kelpie. It's probably warmer than K. But it's gorgeous, and that's what matters with old cuts. I think the price is fair given the condition of the setting (I adore the setting, personally) so I say... BUY IT if you love it! it's gorgeous in that setting. Personally if it's eyeclean, I'd just go for it. If the appraisal gives you ammunition to lower the price, go for it... and check for girdle issues.

 

[LGK]

I'm with Kelpie. It's probably warmer than K. But it's gorgeous, and that's what matters with old cuts. I think the price is fair given the condition of the setting (I adore the setting, personally) so I say... BUY IT! It's gorgeous. Personally if it's eyeclean, I'd just go for it. If the appraisal gives you ammunition to lower the price, go for it... and check for girdle issues.

Ditto, the price isn't bad even if it's a lot lower spec'd. It photographs a lot like my M colored OEC, I'd assume it's somewhere thereabouts in color or a little lower. Honestly a couple color grades when you get below M isn't a huge deal with regard to price.

I've purchased from this seller before (saw this ring the other day when looking at her stuff ) and she was good- item as described, quick shipping, and when I asked her for a return period she gave me one.

 

[kennedy]

Assuming EGL isn't wildy off, is this a fair price?

Kenny -- This seems unnecessarily snarky. As I mentioned twice before, I plan on having this ring sent to an independent appraiser, such as Neil Beatty, who is more than qualified to grade this stone. I'm not assuming anything -- just wanted to know if the price is fair given the best case scenario because, if it isn't, I would renegotiate now or simply pass altogether.

 

[kennedy]

I think it looks nice. I actually love the setting. You shouldn't buy it expecting an K VS2 though...don't be surprised if the appraiser tells you it's an L-O/P SI2. I can tell from the pic it's not a K....I've bought a lot of old cuts off of pictures. Fortunately with old cuts it's often external blemishes that set the clarity grade, not internal inclusions. I would ask about the inclusions/chips/abrasions and for pics with less glare to get a good idea of the facet pattern. Personally, I do not sweat the grading for old cuts if they are bought cheap from a discounter like ebay. I either like them visually or I don't. I have seen OECs with much better symmetry/appealing facet pattern than this one. Although it's funny that I don't like them "perfect", the august vintage rounds aren't my thing at all.

Kelpie -- Thanks for your reply. When you say you've seen OECs with better facet patterns, what are you seeing in this stone that seems "off"? I'm with you, though, in that that I really like the character in true old cuts and am not a fan of AVR's as they are just too "perfect".

 

[kennedy]

I'm with Kelpie. It's probably warmer than K. But it's gorgeous, and that's what matters with old cuts. I think the price is fair given the condition of the setting (I adore the setting, personally) so I say... BUY IT if you love it! it's gorgeous in that setting. Personally if it's eyeclean, I'd just go for it. If the appraisal gives you ammunition to lower the price, go for it... and check for girdle issues.

Thanks, Gypsy. I was hoping you'd reply!! When you say you would go for it if it's eyeclean, does that mean you would skip the appraiser?

 

[kennedy]

I'm with Kelpie. It's probably warmer than K. But it's gorgeous, and that's what matters with old cuts. I think the price is fair given the condition of the setting (I adore the setting, personally) so I say... BUY IT! It's gorgeous. Personally if it's eyeclean, I'd just go for it. If the appraisal gives you ammunition to lower the price, go for it... and check for girdle issues.

Ditto, the price isn't bad even if it's a lot lower spec'd. It photographs a lot like my M colored OEC, I'd assume it's somewhere thereabouts in color or a little lower. Honestly a couple color grades when you get below M isn't a huge deal with regard to price.

I've purchased from this seller before (saw this ring the other day when looking at her stuff ) and she was good- item as described, quick shipping, and when I asked her for a return period she gave me one.

Thanks, LGK. I love your OEC, by the way! Great to know this seller is reputable. She seems so from the interaction we've had thus far.

 

[kenny]

Assuming EGL isn't wildy off, is this a fair price?

Kenny -- This seems unnecessarily snarky. As I mentioned twice before, I plan on having this ring sent to an independent appraiser, such as Neil Beatty, who is more than qualified to grade this stone. I'm not assuming anything -- just wanted to know if the price is fair given the best case scenario because, if it isn't, I would renegotiate now or simply pass altogether.

Sorry.

All I can say is people who sell diamonds are pretty shrewd.
Odds are very high you are about to spend $$$$$ on shipping, insurance, appraisals . . . all for nothing.
. . . if it sounds too good to be true . . .

But Hey, knock yourself out.
Zillions of lottery tickets are sold every day, and Neil the the USPS have bills to pay.

 

[kennedy]

Assuming EGL isn't wildy off, is this a fair price?

Kenny -- This seems unnecessarily snarky. As I mentioned twice before, I plan on having this ring sent to an independent appraiser, such as Neil Beatty, who is more than qualified to grade this stone. I'm not assuming anything -- just wanted to know if the price is fair given the best case scenario because, if it isn't, I would renegotiate now or simply pass altogether.

Sorry.

All I can say is people who sell diamonds are pretty shrewd.
Odds are very high you are about to spend $$$$$ on shipping, insurance, appraisals . . . all for nothing.
. . . if it sounds too good to be true . . .

But Hey, knock yourself out.
Zillions of lottery tickets are sold every day, and Neil the the USPS have bills to pay.

What about this deal seems "too good to be true"?

 

[prettyshrewdsellers]

Assuming EGL isn't wildy off, is this a fair price?

Kenny -- This seems unnecessarily snarky. As I mentioned twice before, I plan on having this ring sent to an independent appraiser, such as Neil Beatty, who is more than qualified to grade this stone. I'm not assuming anything -- just wanted to know if the price is fair given the best case scenario because, if it isn't, I would renegotiate now or simply pass altogether.

Neil or any other appraiser can't give you an accurate color appraisal of a centre stone that is already set.
An educated estimate maybe but unless you plan on having them unset the stone this will be far less conclusive than a grading report from GIA.

Diamonds are graded facedown by comparing body color, not faceup looking at the crown as they are worn or viewed.

Antique stones (if it is even an antique the setting looks new) are often sent to EGL this isn't inherently a bad thing (or to play the weaker grading game to make it difficult for consumers to ascertain true value as Kenny suggests) but often to ensure the naming of Old European Cut as GIA has much more strict and arbitrary criteria and they don't want to risk an antique being called just Round Brilliant.

So antique dealers and suppliers often use EGL paper for all of their stones.

That being said expect the following:

The setting is likely new or undetermined date origin.
The centre stone if graded by GIA could well be in the range of L-P and the clarity could be SI1 - SI2.
Your appraiser could give you a good idea about clarity(maybe) but color their estimate +/- 2 grades is about as accurate as you will get.
They can also tell you if the setting is platinum(maybe if they test the metal) and estimate if the melee weight and color seems accurate.

Still a good idea to send to an appraiser, if and only if its still a good deal to you given the ranges above, and you like the cut of the stone.

I think the price if the centre matches the paper is okay not a steal but okay (it faces up a bit small due to 64%+ depth) and comparables like this one http://www.oldworlddiamonds.com/inv_details.php?ID=2090&SHAPE=EU&PAGE=33 put it in the right ballpark.

Good-Luck

 

[kennedy]

Assuming EGL isn't wildy off, is this a fair price?

Kenny -- This seems unnecessarily snarky. As I mentioned twice before, I plan on having this ring sent to an independent appraiser, such as Neil Beatty, who is more than qualified to grade this stone. I'm not assuming anything -- just wanted to know if the price is fair given the best case scenario because, if it isn't, I would renegotiate now or simply pass altogether.

Neil or any other appraiser can't give you an accurate color appraisal of a centre stone that is already set.
An educated estimate maybe but unless you plan on having them unset the stone this will be far less conclusive than a grading report from GIA.

Diamonds are graded facedown by comparing body color, not faceup looking at the crown as they are worn or viewed.

Antique stones (if it is even an antique the setting looks new) are often sent to EGL this isn't inherently a bad thing (or to play the weaker grading game to make it difficult for consumers to ascertain true value as Kenny suggests) but often to ensure the naming of Old European Cut as GIA has much more strict and arbitrary criteria and they don't want to risk an antique being called just Round Brilliant.

So antique dealers and suppliers often use EGL paper for all of their stones.

That being said expect the following:

The setting is likely new or undetermined date origin.
The centre stone if graded by GIA could well be in the range of L-P and the clarity could be SI1 - SI2.
Your appraiser could give you a good idea about clarity(maybe) but color their estimate +/- 2 grades is about as accurate as you will get.
They can also tell you if the setting is platinum(maybe if they test the metal) and estimate if the melee weight and color seems accurate.

Still a good idea to send to an appraiser, if and only if its still a good deal to you given the ranges above, and you like the cut of the stone.

I think the price if the centre matches the paper is okay not a steal but okay (it faces up a bit small due to 64%+ depth) and comparables like this one http://www.oldworlddiamonds.com/inv_details.php?ID=2090&SHAPE=EU&PAGE=33 put it in the right ballpark.

Good-Luck

What makes you say that the diamond and setting might be new? Is this based on something in particular you're seeing in the pictures? And, if so, are you an expert in antique jewelry?

 

[prettyshrewdsellers]

Hi all,

I am in the market for an OEC and came across this ring. The ring is platinum and features a 1.43 ct OEC, EGL (LA) certed as K, VS2. Total carat weight on the ring is 1.93. Price is $6500. I would have this ring sent to an appraiser and have the option to return for my money back. Any and all opinions welcome!

Here are details from the cert:

1.43 ct
K, VS2
7.26 x 6.91 x 4.55
Depth 64.2
Table 50
Crown 16.9
Pavilion 42.9
Girdle Very Thin to Sl Thick
Culet Medium
Polish Good
Symmetry Fair

Thanks in advance for your feedback and opinions!

No expert(I am not one) could make a conclusive judgement based only on a couple of photographs.
There are few scratches or patina on the metal the milgrain looks in pretty good shape, if it is indeed platinum the piece is quite bright and polished which is indicative of either

i) an antique piece which has been polished
ii) a new piece that has been polished

I'll let your appraisor give you a more definitive judgement but does it matter to you if the stone and setting are indeed an antique?
What does your seller say about the piece? Can you post the seller's link?

 

[LGK]

I actually thought it looked like an original setting. However, it's hard to tell for positive sure from the pics, obviously. It does have more intact millgrain than some- but the style doesn't scream repro to me at all, and if it is a repro, it's a particularly good looking one and not one of the really obvious ones, at least in my opinion with the given pictures.

Easy enough to make an educated guess on new or old when you get your hands on it, just flip it over and look at the underside. If it's very smooth and somewhat thin, it's die struck and an original almost certainly. If it's lumpy and thicker, it's cast and likely brand new. If you care ask the seller for a good closeup pic of the reverse.

I do think the price is decent considering it's a nice looking setting no matter what, and the setting itself would be pricey new- a somewhat similar style by Beverly K was a bit over $2K at the end of 2010, in 18K, not platinum. And regardless of the age of this setting, it looks higher quality than BK would be.

I don't think it's outrageous to think that this is somewhere around an M-N-O color, VS if you're lucky or possibly SI, in an antique PT setting in reasonably good condition. The price would be quite good but not unbelievably so, given that I'd probably assume it's a few colors lower than stated and the clarity is probably pretty good but it could be an SI. Typically that's what I'd assume if I were bidding. And even assuming it's off a few grades, the price seems reasonable. The thing is, you *can* find good deals second hand- you just need to CYA by seeing an appraiser within a return period, and deal with a seller you trust to take the item back if it isn't as described. I'd say this doesn't scream "too good to be true" to me- it just seems like a very nice looking piece at a reasonable price, which is the sort of thing I would consider purchasing to be honest.

I actually did look at this auction a few days ago and I did think it was the sort of piece I'd certainly consider if I was in the market.

ETA: OP, don't post the link to the auction, but I'm sure you knew that

ETA again: I don't see that it looks too shiny or un-patinated or whatever. It just looks like the seller took the pic in bright light, which this seller does tend to do- the piece I purchased from her a couple years ago was photographed that way, also.

ETA for yet another time : It's hard to tell what the patterning and performance is like based on the pics. It definitely looks promising, though. If you go for it, here's what I do to examine OECs- I look for edge to edge performance. You want the center facets to fire big fat flashes of light back to you, as well as the outer facets. If an OEC is a not-so-awesome one, it'll usually have facets that are working in one place but not the other, and frequently it's the center facets under the table that are lazy. Play with it in a bunch of lighting scenarios. If you can get ahold of an OEC that you *know* is a good cut one, it's great to have a point of comparison, but if not, just try to observe it carefully and see if it's sparkly all over. I don't personally require "perfect" light performance from an OEC, but I hate when the center just sits there and doesn't do much.

 

[kennedy]

I actually thought it looked like an original setting. However, it's hard to tell for positive sure from the pics, obviously. It does have more intact millgrain than some- but the style doesn't scream repro to me at all, and if it is a repro, it's a particularly good looking one and not one of the really obvious ones, at least in my opinion with the given pictures.

Easy enough to make an educated guess on new or old when you get your hands on it, just flip it over and look at the underside. If it's very smooth and somewhat thin, it's die struck and an original almost certainly. If it's lumpy and thicker, it's cast and likely brand new. If you care ask the seller for a good closeup pic of the reverse.

I do think the price is decent considering it's a nice looking setting no matter what, and the setting itself would be pricey new- a somewhat similar style by Beverly K was a bit over $2K at the end of 2010.

I don't think it's outrageous to think that this is somewhere around an M or N color, VS if you're lucky or possibly SI, in an antique PT setting in reasonably good condition. The price would be quite good but not unbelievably so, and I'd probably assume it's a few colors lower than stated and the clarity is probably pretty good. Typically that's what I'd assume if I were bidding. And even assuming it's off a few grades, the price seems reasonable. The thing is, you *can* find good deals second hand- you just need to CYA by seeing an appraiser within a return period, and deal with a seller you trust to take the item back if it isn't as described. I'd say this doesn't scream "too good to be true" to me- it just seems like a very nice looking piece at a reasonable price, which is the sort of thing I would consider purchasing to be honest.

I actually did look at this auction a few days ago and I did think it was the sort of piece I'd certainly consider if I was in the market.

ETA: OP, don't post the link to the auction, but I'm sure you knew that

Thank you! That was extremely helpful -- I know you are an educated, savvy buyer, so your feedback means a lot to me. As you know having seen the listing, the seller claims this is an authentic Deco piece from around 1925. She's also up front that the stone does have some warmth. I actually don't mind a bit of warmth in an OEC (I do in a modern RB) and don't really need for the stone to be certed by GIA or AGS. As long as the appraiser confirms that the stone and setting are indeed authentic and that the price is fair, I'll be happy. And I do believe that Neil (or someone like him) can do so without unmounting the stone. I'm not looking for a steal, just a fair price from someone I can trust.

Thanks for the tip not to post a link to the auction. Yes, I knew that, but I appreciate you looking out for me.

ETA: Just saw your ETA. Were you pleased with the piece you purchased from her? The rest of her inventory is quite impressive -- she seems to have a good eye.

 

[LGK]

I actually thought it looked like an original setting. However, it's hard to tell for positive sure from the pics, obviously. It does have more intact millgrain than some- but the style doesn't scream repro to me at all, and if it is a repro, it's a particularly good looking one and not one of the really obvious ones, at least in my opinion with the given pictures.

Easy enough to make an educated guess on new or old when you get your hands on it, just flip it over and look at the underside. If it's very smooth and somewhat thin, it's die struck and an original almost certainly. If it's lumpy and thicker, it's cast and likely brand new. If you care ask the seller for a good closeup pic of the reverse.

I do think the price is decent considering it's a nice looking setting no matter what, and the setting itself would be pricey new- a somewhat similar style by Beverly K was a bit over $2K at the end of 2010.

I don't think it's outrageous to think that this is somewhere around an M or N color, VS if you're lucky or possibly SI, in an antique PT setting in reasonably good condition. The price would be quite good but not unbelievably so, and I'd probably assume it's a few colors lower than stated and the clarity is probably pretty good. Typically that's what I'd assume if I were bidding. And even assuming it's off a few grades, the price seems reasonable. The thing is, you *can* find good deals second hand- you just need to CYA by seeing an appraiser within a return period, and deal with a seller you trust to take the item back if it isn't as described. I'd say this doesn't scream "too good to be true" to me- it just seems like a very nice looking piece at a reasonable price, which is the sort of thing I would consider purchasing to be honest.

I actually did look at this auction a few days ago and I did think it was the sort of piece I'd certainly consider if I was in the market.

ETA: OP, don't post the link to the auction, but I'm sure you knew that

Thank you! That was extremely helpful -- I know you are an educated, savvy buyer, so your feedback means a lot to me. As you know having seen the listing, the seller claims this is an authentic Deco piece from around 1925. She's also up front that the stone does have some warmth. I actually don't mind a bit of warmth in an OEC (I do in a modern RB) and don't really need for the stone to be certed by GIA or AGS. As long as the appraiser confirms that the stone and setting are indeed authentic and that the price is fair, I'll be happy. And I do believe that Neil (or someone like him) can do so without unmounting the stone. I'm not looking for a steal, just a fair price from someone I can trust.

Thanks for the tip not to post a link to the auction. Yes, I knew that, but I appreciate you looking out for me.

ETA: Just saw your ETA. Were you pleased with the piece you purchased from her? The rest of her inventory is quite impressive -- she seems to have a good eye.

Heh. I just added even more because I can't seem to get all my thoughts down in one go, lol. Anyway, yes, the ring I bought from her was a beautiful one. It was a couple color grades lower than she thought, IMO- I never got it graded, but she called it an M and I thought it was probably O/P. It was a 1.08 ct OEC in a lovely antique PT setting for $2500 from her in 2007. I resold the center for $2K a few months after, so I got a killer antique setting for about $500. Which seemed great to me. The center stone I got from her was actually a light pink/grey color with a hint of brown, rather than the usual yellow- it was definitely pinker than the usual top brown. I was pretty tempted to keep the stone, it was lovely, but I didn't "need" it, too

This is the ring with the now-sold stone: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/new-antique-platinum-oec-ring.81289/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/new-antique-platinum-oec-ring.81289/[/URL] . (After I'd lived with the stone awhile, and compared it to others, I felt it was probably an O/P- not Q/R as I guessed in this thread, but price-wise it is not much difference either way.)

Even if the ring is somewhere around M-N-O and SI- based on the pics it looks mostly like an M or N to me, but obviously that's a guess- and the setting doesn't need work, I think the price is just fine- exactly in line with what you should expect to pay for a 2nd hand piece from ebay, pretty much. (I.e., lower than what you'd pay for retail.) And honestly if it isn't chipped, a lot of lower colored antique diamonds are highish clarity, VS or better, weirdly enough. So VS isn't hard to believe.

 

[Gypsy]

LGK gave you great advice. I don't think it's too good to be true. Honestly, neither Kenny or prettyshrewdseller have a lot of experience in the pre-owned or old cut market-- and so I would take their advice with a grain of salt and the understanding that they don't want you to get your hopes up too high and want you to know the risks. I wouldn't say I'm an expert, but I have some experience and enough interest that I have been following the more experienced members and absorbing their advice for a while.

Here's what it comes down to me:

It's most likely warmer than advertised. But you know that and you won't know how you feel about that until you see it in person.
It's probably eyeclean, or has only white inclusions, and you can ask the seller if the stone is clean upfront and then... you need to see it.
The price is in line with other diamonds of it's "likely" grading. The setting looks like it is nice condition and if you don't want it, I doubt you'd have an issue selling it (heck I'd buy it from you and stick a sapphire in it before you could blink).
You have an appraiser that can tell you the replacement value and the 'probable' accuracy of the color and clarity grades. Yes, color is graded face down but if it really becomes and issue Neil can unset and reset it. Getting the appraisal will help you make an informed decision and even if you keep the diamond, you might be able to ask for a partial refund if the grading is lower than advertised.
You have, or will ask for and receive, a solid 7 day no questions return policy. Yes, you would be out for the appraiser and shipping if you opted to return it. But, on the other hand, you've seen it and as long as it's eyeclean and you like it in person and Neil confirms you got what you paid for... you're likely to keep it.

So you could be out a couple hundred dollars between Neil and shipping. Is that worth it to you? If it were me, I would be okay with it. BUT I also know I like warmer colored OECs because I've seen A LOT of them in person and own one. As long as you've done your leg work there. I think you're in good shape to take the risk. And you can have it sent to you first, if you like and if you like the look of it, send it to Neil. So that, if you don't like the look of it in person or it's too warm or visibly included you can send it back without incurring the costs of the appraisal.

 

[kelpie]

I think it looks nice. I actually love the setting. You shouldn't buy it expecting an K VS2 though...don't be surprised if the appraiser tells you it's an L-O/P SI2. I can tell from the pic it's not a K....I've bought a lot of old cuts off of pictures. Fortunately with old cuts it's often external blemishes that set the clarity grade, not internal inclusions. I would ask about the inclusions/chips/abrasions and for pics with less glare to get a good idea of the facet pattern. Personally, I do not sweat the grading for old cuts if they are bought cheap from a discounter like ebay. I either like them visually or I don't. I have seen OECs with much better symmetry/appealing facet pattern than this one. Although it's funny that I don't like them "perfect", the august vintage rounds aren't my thing at all.

Kelpie -- Thanks for your reply. When you say you've seen OECs with better facet patterns, what are you seeing in this stone that seems "off"? I'm with you, though, in that that I really like the character in true old cuts and am not a fan of AVR's as they are just too "perfect".

Kennedy, I would not question the setting providence...it sure looks authentic art deco to me. It's just been recently polished. Single stone is only place I know of that does repros that well, you should be so lucky if it's one of theirs or another comparable artisan. Also Kenny's comments on grading reflect that he collects modern cuts. GIA certs are great but that is simply not how antique diamonds are sold. Look at the most reputable vendors specializing in old cuts like Old World Diamonds and Single Stone and nearly all their stones are either in-house graded or EGL. So with antique diamonds you are nearly always comparing fuzzily graded apples to fuzzily graded apples. Regarding facet pattern it's not easy to tell from the pics because you need a head on shot in a light without glare/fire/or excessive brilliance. When I say I've seen better, it's a matter of preference. Here is my banged up OEC before I had it refurbished by Single Stone (but they kept the facet pattern intact) notice how the star pattern is crisp and geometric almost like a quilt square. I suspect this one is more random but better pics would help you decide if you like it. Facet pattern is the number one priority for me in old cuts and you can't tell by the numbers since my stone is something like 53% depth and 40% table with a shallow crown.

 

[lknvrb4]

The stone looks pretty but I find the setting too busy.

 

[kennedy]

I think it looks nice. I actually love the setting. You shouldn't buy it expecting an K VS2 though...don't be surprised if the appraiser tells you it's an L-O/P SI2. I can tell from the pic it's not a K....I've bought a lot of old cuts off of pictures. Fortunately with old cuts it's often external blemishes that set the clarity grade, not internal inclusions. I would ask about the inclusions/chips/abrasions and for pics with less glare to get a good idea of the facet pattern. Personally, I do not sweat the grading for old cuts if they are bought cheap from a discounter like ebay. I either like them visually or I don't. I have seen OECs with much better symmetry/appealing facet pattern than this one. Although it's funny that I don't like them "perfect", the august vintage rounds aren't my thing at all.

Kelpie -- Thanks for your reply. When you say you've seen OECs with better facet patterns, what are you seeing in this stone that seems "off"? I'm with you, though, in that that I really like the character in true old cuts and am not a fan of AVR's as they are just too "perfect".

Kennedy, I would not question the setting providence...it sure looks authentic art deco to me. It's just been recently polished. Single stone is only place I know of that does repros that well, you should be so lucky if it's one of theirs or another comparable artisan. Also Kenny's comments on grading reflect that he collects modern cuts. GIA certs are great but that is simply not how antique diamonds are sold. Look at the most reputable vendors specializing in old cuts like Old World Diamonds and Single Stone and nearly all their stones are either in-house graded or EGL. So with antique diamonds you are nearly always comparing fuzzily graded apples to fuzzily graded apples. Regarding facet pattern it's not easy to tell from the pics because you need a head on shot in a light without glare/fire/or excessive brilliance. When I say I've seen better, it's a matter of preference. Here is my banged up OEC before I had it refurbished by Single Stone (but they kept the facet pattern intact) notice how the star pattern is crisp and geometric almost like a quilt square. I suspect this one is more random but better pics would help you decide if you like it. Facet pattern is the number one priority for me in old cuts and you can't tell by the numbers since my stone is something like 53% depth and 40% table with a shallow crown.

Thanks, Kelpie. Very helpful feedback. I agree with you re: EGL in the case of antique stones. I have a modern ideal cut RB with an AGS cert and that mattered to me a lot when buying that stone, but I don't even really care if an OEC comes with a cert -- I just want a beautifully cut stone at a fair price. Like you, my main priority is getting an OEC with a stunning facet pattern that is crisp and geometric as you describe. I can't tell if this is it, but I have just emailed the seller to ask for more head on pics without glare. We'll see what she comes up with. Also good to hear that you wouldn't question the authenticity of the setting.

 

[kennedy]

LGK gave you great advice. I don't think it's too good to be true. Honestly, neither Kenny or prettyshrewdseller have a lot of experience in the pre-owned or old cut market-- and so I would take their advice with a grain of salt and the understanding that they don't want you to get your hopes up too high and want you to know the risks. I wouldn't say I'm an expert, but I have some experience and enough interest that I have been following the more experienced members and absorbing their advice for a while.

Here's what it comes down to me:

It's most likely warmer than advertised. But you know that and you won't know how you feel about that until you see it in person.
It's probably eyeclean, or has only white inclusions, and you can ask the seller if the stone is clean upfront and then... you need to see it.
The price is in line with other diamonds of it's "likely" grading. The setting looks like it is nice condition and if you don't want it, I doubt you'd have an issue selling it (heck I'd buy it from you and stick a sapphire in it before you could blink).
You have an appraiser that can tell you the replacement value and the 'probable' accuracy of the color and clarity grades. Yes, color is graded face down but if it really becomes and issue Neil can unset and reset it. Getting the appraisal will help you make an informed decision and even if you keep the diamond, you might be able to ask for a partial refund if the grading is lower than advertised.
You have, or will ask for and receive, a solid 7 day no questions return policy. Yes, you would be out for the appraiser and shipping if you opted to return it. But, on the other hand, you've seen it and as long as it's eyeclean and you like it in person and Neil confirms you got what you paid for... you're likely to keep it.

So you could be out a couple hundred dollars between Neil and shipping. Is that worth it to you? If it were me, I would be okay with it. BUT I also know I like warmer colored OECs because I've seen A LOT of them in person and own one. As long as you've done your leg work there. I think you're in good shape to take the risk. And you can have it sent to you first, if you like and if you like the look of it, send it to Neil. So that, if you don't like the look of it in person or it's too warm or visibly included you can send it back without incurring the costs of the appraisal.

Thanks, Gypsy. Your logic makes a lot of sense and, assuming I get a picture of the stone that suggests its facet pattern is promising, I think I'll pull the trigger knowing that I've covered my bases. I don't mind being out a couple of hundred bucks if the odds appear to be in my favor and I know I can get my money back. By the way, I also like warmer colored OECs and used to own one before I stupidly sold it years ago. Kick myself everyday for making that mistake. That was an EGL J, so probably similar to this one. I loved that stone. I like white in modern RBs, but don't mind warmth in older cuts.