An email exchange with David Klass. Regarding copying other vendors' custom works.

[icy_jade]

adding this old thread so we don’t have to rehash the same points…

Ok to copy design?

 

[Niel]

What you say on the internet stays forever, and everything you say can always be traced back to you. That fact generally engenders a degree of self-restraint when it comes to accusing people of legal wrongdoing, but perhaps not in everyone. So you do you But as far as I can tell this has nothing to do with a discussion on the morality of copying jewellery, so if you’d be willing to do you in your own thread I’d be most appreciative.

see I thought your original questions were getting at the idea of morality when working with a jeweler who has actions you find immoral.
If that was just a thinly veiled intro to allow you to rail on DK for putting swirlies and roses on a setting, pop off.

 

[yssie]

Yssie the way you’re coming at this is very hostile and seemingly calling out everyone who doesn’t agree with you on this issue as “immoral” which is a pretty slippery slope.

Also it’s pretty well documented that Leon held a PSer’s stone hostage due to a dispute and didn’t return it until attorneys were involved.

I’m sorry to read this! I actually thought I was being really accepting of differing opinions. Sorry if that’s not coming across that way, because I’m trying to be. At the same time I’m trying to be very clear on where I personally stand, so maybe I’ve got an excess of disambiguating verbiage. I’m not feeling strongly about this thread at all, to be honest.

Well - right up to the point where someone started with some sort of legal accusation of another vendor, which I genuinely know absolutely nothing about, and which hasn’t been tied into my topic in any way.

 

[monarch64]

I have never used DK specifically because another poster from years ago collaborated with him and that turned me off. I’ve always felt strongly about my decision and this is yet another reinforcement.

And what does that have to do with this thread? Well, questionable people work with questionable people.

 

[yssie]

see I though your original questions were getting at the idea of morality when working with a jeweler who has actions you find immoral.
If that was just a thinly veiled intro to allow you to rail on DK for putting swirlies and roses on a setting, pop off.

I honestly can’t understand what you’re saying. What does pop of mean?

You brought up Caysie getting banned from PS, which I have heard something about, and which I explained that I personally feel was stupid on her part but not immoral. I feel that way because I don’t see a connection to how shilling on PS could have harmed her industry contemporaries.

Then you brought up something about Leon and legal dubiousness and I don’t know anything about that. A vague “legal” accusation is - as I said already - not something I’m touching with a barge pole. If whatever you’re talking about actually exists and is relevant to this thread feel free to reference it explicitly.

 

[sledge]

I don’t know nor have I worked with Leon. I can’t render a full opinion, good or bad. I do know he has content on his professional website that I consider distasteful at best. I’m not a lawyer and not certain it would have legal repercussions for slander.

In this example he bashes on the HCA. I agree the HCA provides limited usefulness but this is more than that. Others can read and form their own opinions.

There is (or was) more pages a few years back that was exposed in a different thread. This was from a 5 second Google search.

HCA Scam - Leon Megé | The Art of Platinum®

Holloway Cut Advisor (HCA) is a web-based honeypot collecting personal information under a diamond evaluating system's guise. The HCA is designed to spy on consumers, and channel leads to affiliated dealers.

leonmege.com

 

[CircularBrilliant]

Many years ago, I embarked on my first custom jewelry project. I was excited to find a highly-recommended vendor with a beautiful design that would suit the stone I wanted to set perfectly. I was so excited to work with her...until she explained how to ship my stone to her (she was located in another country). The details are fuzzy now, but I believe it involved using shitty packaging+magazines to make the whole thing seem not worth stealing, because the package was just going to be left at the side of the road for her to scoop up later. She swore it was safe, but I just wasn't comfortable taking the risk on something that was so expensive and precious to me. So I told her that I loved her design, but would be looking for someone US-based to set my stone. She wished me well, and asked me to please not ask another jeweler to copy her work.

I am ashamed to admit that I had actually been thinking about doing that, because I didn't know any better. Custom jewelry was new to me, and it unfortunately hadn't even occurred to me that something could be wrong with finding an example I liked and getting someone to make it for me. I'd never have considered copying a branded designer piece, but this didn't feel like the same thing. Once this vendor made her feelings on it known, though, I realized how it must feel for her to put so much love into her work and have someone else copy it.

Of course, one could argue that her design certainly wasn't truly "one-of-a-kind." She didn't invent chubby claw prongs or baskets that looked like flower petals. But her take on it was uniquely hers, and I think anyone familiar with her work would have been able to immediately identify it as hers. While I wouldn't be able to clearly define what design elements "belonged" to her, that doesn't mean she didn't create a special and personal design. Her not being able to legally stop me or sue me if I decided to copy her work was irrelevant. I respected her position, and wound up going with a different type of setting.

Everyone has their own morals. Not agreeing with another person's doesn't make theirs wrong, or yours right. But at the end of the day, we all have to figure out where we stand on issues, and make choices accordingly. In this situation, it seems like there's some confusion about who said/did what, so I'm not passing any judgment as to this vendor or this project. But I completely understand why @yssie is upset, and I would personally not feel right knowingly copying another person's unique design without their blessing, or working with a vendor willing to do so. Of course, there are some design/design elements that are truly generic...but I think we all "know it when we see it" when it comes to a unique and personal piece.

 

[lovedogs]

@sledge I agree with you and think folks need to decide who they want to work with and why. I try to always design pieces that have elements from rings I like but fused together in a unique way, and DKJ has always been helpful and accommodating of those designs.

I personally won't work with LM for some of the reasons you stated, and due to other content from his website (or at least a previous version of the website) that I found rude and judgemental.

But its important that people chose who to work with according to their own preferences, experiences, etc.

 

[Gussie]

Legality aside, if it is a moral judgment to have a design copied, who decides what details are changed so that it is acceptable for a different vendor to make a piece? Is scale, stone/metal choice enough? Are small details such as prongs or milgrain enough? Who decides - the original designer, the preferred vendor, a jury of psers? My point is that it is such a gray area. IMOO, morality is "thou shall not steal." However, is it stealing when the designs are freely shown on the internet? If I find a dollar on the ground and I take it, is it stealing? Free advertising on IG and the like is hardly free in this case. Is it worth it to the original designer to give up the "free" advertising in order to prevent copying? I don't know the answers. I haven't even made up my own mind. It is always an interesting conversation to be sure.

 

[Matata]

I must confess that these types of threads eventually set me to giggling to the point of resembling a laughing hyena.
People are getting upset over a piece of metal and some shiny stones whose origins are dirt/minerals transformed by volcanic and other processes over eons. In other words, we're arguing about wearing mother nature's really really old shit.
And we're proud to wear that shit and privileged to be able to buy it (although there have been times when I've been more thrilled about buying zoo doo for my garden. Now that's some original and powerful shit.)

When I get too full of my own shit I recenter myself by pondering the privilege and elite position I occupy to be able to have a custom piece of shit made to my specs; a piece that I wouldn't wear while walking by the abundance of tent camps that are everywhere in my town. I ponder the epic scale of human tragedy occurring daily, of cities and towns turned to rubble by natural and man-made forces, the monthly slaughter of kids sitting at their desks in school and my pieces of shit lose their luster and seem obscene. That's how I center myself. There are more important things to lose our shit over than the one's on our fingers.

 

[yssie]

@Matata I’d like you to know that I treated myself to some confetti cake Cocofloss yesterday. Should arrive early next week.

I know it’s probably strange for me to be saying this, as the person who started this thread, but I agree with you and I waited until I felt this way to post here. This wasn’t worth the amount of angry I felt at the time, and I’m feeling oddly detached about many things right now.

And I hope it goes without saying but I’ll say anyway, I appreciate your posts. Always.

 

[Matata]

@yssie, my sweet yssie, my newly acquired knowledge that confetti cake flavored floss exists has deeply traumatized me and I am chomping through a pint of Haagen Dazs in an attempt to forget all about it.

You likely know this but I want to say it anyway, nothing I've written here today is an attempt to invalidate your feelings. I hope your feeling of detachment is not a defensive mechanism against bad things happening to you or those you love and are, rather, a natural response to coping with the petty annoyances of life. Luv ya girl, always.

 

[purplesilk]

@Matata : everybody agrees with you that "problems" related to jewels are trivial and stupid compared to the true life problems ( poverty, war, illness,...), but since this is a jewellery forum you objections are not pertinent; I'll be interested in knowing your point of view about @yssie question, because she needs a constructive exchange of opinions and you seem a strong opinionated person.

 

[Matata]

everybody agrees with you that "problems" related to jewels are trivial and stupid compared to the true life problems ( poverty, war, illness,...), but since this is a jewellery forum you objections are not pertinent; I'll be interested in knowing your point of view about @yssie question, because she needs a constructive exchange of opinions and you seem a strong opinionated person.

See post #16 for my point of view, specifically the 2nd and last 2 sentences.

 

[purplesilk]

Claiming a piece is one-on-a-kind is difficult to defend because there is no way to know how much one has been influenced throughout time by things owned/created by others. Designers concerned about their work being copied should engrave their pieces with a "original design do not copy" warning. I doubt many of them could do so as I doubt many of their pieces are original in every aspect.

Even if you never post another piece of jewelry in the public domain again, I suspect someone else would eventually post their piece that they think is one-of-a-kind/unique and which looks exactly like or closely resembles one of yours, or mine, or some other member's here.


If there is legal standing to stop Klass from copying what someone believes is an original one-of-a-kind piece, they should take advantage of the legal system to do so. Whichever side wins sets the precedent for the future.

@Matata : my apologizes for not rembering you already posted your (very valid to me) point of view.

 

[Matata]

my apologizes for not rembering you already posted your (very valid to me) point of view.

That's kind of you but an apology isn't necessary. I'm easy to forget

 

[newdiamondworld]

Yssie the way you’re coming at this is very hostile and seemingly calling out everyone who doesn’t agree with you on this issue as “immoral” which is a pretty slippery slope.

I agree with the above.

some things in life are black and white, but this particular case is not.
even though I understand all the reasons to be frustrated, but three threads later, I actually feel for David Klass more

 

[mrs-b]

That's kind of you but an apology isn't necessary. I'm easy to forget

Hardly, my dear.

 

[kgizo]

In the interest of debate, is the onus on the receiver of a photo to research said photo, or is it on the creator to communicate their ownership of a design and limit photo reproductions? When I’ve purchased art, some creators have had something like the following on the receipt: “You are purchasing an original creation by XX and XX retains all copyright and ownership rights. Do not photograph and/or share any images of this piece, or allow others to photograph or copy this piece.” Some artists don’t do this as they prefer to enjoy the social media benefits of having photos of their art out floating all over the internet even though that means it is available for copying.

 

[HS4S_2]

I have to admit that I never really thought about the feelings one has about replicating or copying a piece of jewelry years ago. Until you are on a forum like this there many times is not real exposure to this type of situation. At least in my corner of the world. I didn't even attempt to have a custom piece made and didn't even know anything about different vendors. It really wasn't important to me and joining sites that shared people's love for creating made me love it. However, I now understand the emotional attachment one feels for their jewelry and design process. It's so tough because with the internet it is hard to keep this from happening....in many types of situations. I appreciate the ability to see different views on this subject from different members. It makes you really think about other people's feelings and view points.

 

[AprilBaby]

The last time this happened the poor woman left PS along with some of her “friends”. I would hate to see this happen again. Yssie has every right to her feelings, her ring really is one of a kind. I feel like people are picking on her for being upset. I have never made a custom piece but nothing I own is very intricate and not been done by lots of other jewelers. I can’t imagine putting so much work into something and then seeing it copied.

 

[Rons Wolfe]

Hi Yssie -

So I just got off the phone with DKJ re this situation, because I DO know them and have talked with them many times about this situation. I know their frustration and the number of times they've been sent photos of other designers' pieces, and have responded to the would-be client that they are unable to replicate the work of other designers, unless they're vintage. I know this is standard practice for them.

The timeline, as I understand it, was that DKJ had some interaction with the client, which resulted in the client sending them a selection of 5 photos as inspiration photos.

Amy then asked the client to pick one as a starting point, telling them that they would then modify from there to get a unique design. She chose your ring, and a working CAD was made. But at that point, the client then posted on PS asking for suggestions.

Meanwhile, Amy came up with what was supposed to be the first modified CAD, which I do not believe you saw, but which she just sent me. And I should also note, the starting CAD has been destroyed. This was the first iteration after initial changes, but - again - not the final iteration. And this is upside down for some reason, so - sorry about that.




In the meantime, and after 2 free CADs, the client disappeared, and now we have this thread.

This "we'll take an idea and modify from there" is completely in keeping with my experiences with DKJ, and a process common for them. As time has gone by, they've tried increasingly to avoid the designs of others, but, unlike you, I still believe that the person who sneakily pics a ring, removes a trademark stamp, then just sort of vaguely says "let's copy this...." - then posts it on PS before doing any of the modifications suggested to them and included in a latter CAD sent to them, has an agenda - and it's a self-serving one at best.

Anyway, I hope this brings some clarity. And to be very clear - there is nothing wrong with my morals or ethics, and I stand behind DKJ 100%. I know the personal pain this causes the people involved, and the depiction of them as uncaring, money-driven, design-stealing, morals-free business people is so far from the truth as to be flatly inaccurate.

I would strongly suggest you either call them or drop in to meet them. But if you do, try to do so with an open mind; sometimes our pre-judgments can be louder than the truth. For example, Amy said to me "Do you think she'd like to do a ring with us so she can see our process from the inside?" Personally, that's what I call transparency of the highest order.

ETA. I accidentally left out a couple of key steps in the timeline, but have now edited and added them, so this post may read differently to how it did when you first read it, if you read it very soon after I posted it.

I wasn't sure if I was going to get into this thread, but it seems I have to, as I've been grossly maligned here;

It's true that I sent them 5 pics, but I was never asked to choose one. I never had any contact with Amy at all that I know of, David signed the few emails I've gotten from them. I got the CAD back after only asking David for the cost of doing it and providing those 5 pics. That I deliberately chose to copy Yssie's ring is a complete falsehood.

I'd also like to share the fact that all the pics I sent had no trademark stamps on them, I didn't edit a thing out.

"

In the meantime, and after 2 free CADs, the client disappeared, and now we have this thread.".

Also false. They did provide me the CAD you see here, which I looked at for a few days before deciding that I don't like it, although I see one design element in it that I really liked, the fine detail he can do in the leaves. So I responded with the following email that you can't see all of, but you can see the timestamp on.


At this point I'm going to follow up with DK, and find out why this was said about me. If it's accurate, I may pull the plug on this project after all.

 

[Rons Wolfe]

The last time this happened the poor woman left PS along with some of her “friends”. I would hate to see this happen again. Yssie has every right to her feelings, her ring really is one of a kind. I feel like people are picking on her for being upset. I have never made a custom piece but nothing I own is very intricate and not been done by lots of other jewelers. I can’t imagine putting so much work into something and then seeing it copied.

I'm with you here. While I don't agree with Yssie's viewpoint here, I totally respect it. Even if DK hadn't emailed me back the next day saying he wouldn't make the copy, I'd have stopped it myself. Simply out of respect for Yssie. We're going a very different direction now, I asked for Japanese Maple leaves.

 

[yssie]

The last time this happened the poor woman left PS along with some of her “friends”. I would hate to see this happen again. Yssie has every right to her feelings, her ring really is one of a kind. I feel like people are picking on her for being upset. I have never made a custom piece but nothing I own is very intricate and not been done by lots of other jewelers. I can’t imagine putting so much work into something and then seeing it copied.

You’re very kind April.

I can say honestly I’m (honestly) not offended by anything that’s been said in this thread. Some people agree with my perspective, some don’t - I expected that. If someone else chooses to make their argument in undignified or crass fashion, well, that doesn’t reflect on me in any way

 

[yssie]

@Rons Wolfe As I told a friend (who isn’t on PS) - on your first thread I jumped down your throat and held a Zumba class down there. That was unfair of me. And illogical, per my own perspective and my own priorities - but in my immediate shock and anger I made several assumptions about people’s roles in this and I reacted without fact-checking them.

But I have never before pointed my fingers at the customer first, in this sort of situation, and I’m not going to start now.

I understand that we are still in disagreement, but no ill-will my end. And I apologize again for responding without benefit of doubt in your original thread.

 

[Rons Wolfe]

@Rons Wolfe As I told a friend (who isn’t on PS) - on your first thread I jumped down your throat and held a Zumba class down there. That was unfair of me. And illogical, per my own perspective and my own priorities - but in my immediate shock and anger I made several assumptions about people’s roles in this and I reacted without fact-checking them.

But I have never before pointed my fingers at the customer first, in this sort of situation, and I’m not going to start now.

I understand that we are still in disagreement, but no ill-will my end. And I apologize again for how strongly I reacted in your original thread.

I appreciate that. I admit I got pretty angry at you after thinking about it, but I've also let that go after thinking about how you felt at the time and how feeling that strongly might have made me react in the same way. So we're good. And I'm glad of that, the kindness you showed me after I commented about losing my husband meant a lot to me, I never want to be the source of stress for you.

To clarify, the only thing we disagree on is the copying of designs in general. If I do get my ring made, I don't give a rat's @$$ if someone copies it. But that doesn't mean I disagree with you defending your design against copying, you're just as entitled to your feelings as I am to mine. And I totally respect yours when it comes to your design. It's a gorgeous ring that I'll happily admire from afar.

 

[yssie]

I appreciate that. I admit I got pretty angry at you after thinking about it, but I've also let that go after thinking about how you felt at the time and how feeling that strongly might have made me react in the same way. So we're good. And I'm glad of that, the kindness you showed me after I commented about losing my husband meant a lot to me, I never want to be the source of stress for you.

To clarify, the only thing we disagree on is the copying of designs in general. If I do get my ring made, I don't give a rat's @$$ if someone copies it. But that doesn't mean I disagree with you defending your design against copying, you're just as entitled to your feelings as I am to mine. And I totally respect yours when it comes to your design. It's a gorgeous ring that I'll happily admire from afar.

Copying jewellery and losing a spouse are SO many worlds apart, I don’t want anyone to ever feel a need to try to view them as equitable on my account. They’re not, not in any way, and frankly you could deliberately copy every dratted thing I own and I would still mourn a loss like yours with you. I mean that. That’s just - humanity, y’know?

I’ll own when I’m wrong. And in your first thread, even if I had a point to make I went about making it way aggressively and with way too many assumptions. And the point that I wanted to make was better directed elsewhere anyway. So thank you for accepting my apology and that makes this thread a win for me.

And I understand where you’re coming from re. Others copying your pieces, not really minding. For me it really is knotted into which vendor does the copying - I told Leon he was free to copy Mothra as many times as he wanted! Because that creation is his every bit as much as it is mine. But I know that’s not the way most people see it.

 

[kenny]

What is this "Mothra" I keep reading about?

I did a search, but I doubt yssie had a mythical monster from a 1961 Japanese horror film, ala King Kong.
But its B-film's poster does an excellent job of telling that story ...

Mothra - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Rons Wolfe]

What is this "Mother" I keep reading about?
I did a search, but I don't think it is a Japanese mythical monster.

Mothra - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's a heavenly bracelet that she has, that I wouldn't wear beyond trying it on to drool. Because I can guarandamntee that I'd have the butterfly and flower smashed to bits before the day was out!

 

[yssie]

What is this "Mother" I keep reading about?
I did a search, but I don't think issue had a Japanese mythical monster.

Mothra - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 930124

Made by Leon Mege, who named it - after, well, you guessed it

I had the original thread removed and dumped a bunch of watermarked photos into another thread. This watermarking business is utterly ghastly But any vendor who sees it won’t need to wonder where it came from!