An email exchange with David Klass. Regarding copying other vendors' custom works.

[TooPatient]

Having just passed our 25th year anniversary...I have a pretty deep perspective.
I can say that there were times when it was tough to survive in the jewelry business. Those times when it wasn't tough? They were incredibly tough- or worse.
There have been so many times compromise was needed....except for one crucial area- and that's being honest with clients and vendors.
I agree it's less than honest ( IMO) to purposely copy and market a design that the originator would like protected.
Totally different story if a client asks their favorite jeweler to make them a piece to enjoy personally.
Given how hard it is to survive, in this biz... isn't it a bit much to expect vendors to turn down a job?

I would definitely not expect a vendor to turn down a job short of making a copy of a piece. Even then, suggesting reaching out and asking for permission to copy would be good in my eyes.

My favorite local jeweler did a pendant for me. When I first talked with him, I said I had a pendant I really liked from another jeweler and was hoping to make similar. He flat out told me that he will NOT make a copy. The look of relief on his face when I said I did not want a copy but liked the feel of that plus another one so wanted to incorporate aspects and then add some additional details was clear. I'm sorry that any jeweler is put in position to have to decide to copy or turn down a job. It isn't fair to ask that of them. (Not saying this thread is referencing that as it is clear she was wanting to do like I did with pulling elements from several and tweaking even further!)

As a side irritation, I had to report a listing on FB as the seller openly said it was a copy she had a jeweler make so you could buy this branded piece for a fraction of the price. It went further by showing actual stamps so that even the vendor name was copied! Either she had no piece and it was all a scam or it was seriously illegal. (Piece in question was stamped Cartier...)

 

[yssie]

[…] someone was ripping it off and selling that design themselves for less money that would be taking something from the designer. That designer would potentially be losing revenue and prospective clients and there would perhaps be an unfair transfer of benefit between competitors.

Oh good grief.

You have elucidated precisely what I’ve always said. Including what I’ve said in this very thread.

Your last paragraph is not my objection and has never been my objection. May I recommend actually reading someone’s posts before denouncing them?

Additionally, because I always aim for thoroughness in my own considerations,
1. I disambiguate between replicas that may be “harming” a vendor’s contemporaries and vintage/antique pieces that no-one stands to lose from if replicated, and
2. I explicate both potential “harm” caused by lost profit and potential “harm” caused by dilution of a jeweller’s brand, and
3. I add a best-effort clause because intent is what matters most.

I give up. Critical reading should be table stakes in a hot-button thread but apparently that’s asking too much here.

Please leave your daughter out of this. Not only is your story irrelevant, it’s outright cruel to use a child’s challenge or disability as ammunition in a discussion on luxury goods, of all things, on a very public forum. I’m genuinely offended on her behalf - my first reaction, which I edited out, was significantly more strongly worded.

 

[lovedogs]

Aw sucks, I just finished reading this thread and then @yssie had to go before I could offer some empathy for her frustration. If you ever come back to this thread, sorry this whole thing hurt so much.

Fortunately she said she would leave the thread open so we could continue the conversation, which is much appreciated, because there is a question… what about diamond/gemstone cuts? Legally and ethically?

Personally if a specialized cut were in production and the inventor was making money off of it, I would not want to copy. If there were a patent or some law prohibiting it then I definitely would not. But what if the cut is no longer in production or a patent does not apply? Am asking for legit advice.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/help-finding-lgd-like-a-spring-cut.278067/#post-5237569

To answer the question from this thread on settings, I expect vendors to:
-Follow the law
-Follow the industry standard
-Follow their own moral compass

The industry standard in tattooing is that both the tattooer and the client have an expectation that another tattooer will not copy without consent. Copying happens but the copy-tooer would lose clout in the industry. So the tattoo industry standard would nix what happened with @yssie

‘Based on my experience with jewelry vendors trusted on PS, the jewelry industry standard seems to be that the vendor owns the design, the customer does not limit the use of the design, and that if other vendors copy, copying is not fatal to other vendor’s’ reputations. It also seems that there is a courtesy back-off-from copying when requested by people who know each other or customers or vendors who have the experience to know they can make the request. Anybody from Trade want to chime in?

I learned about the bold the hard way and still feel like an a**hole. I had an artist do a cover up tattoo on my ankle (the cover up was of a lotus-style flower). She is well known in SoCal--or at least in that particular city where I got the work done-- for her mandala/floral style.

I decided I wanted to see that style more often since I can't really see the tattoo on my ankle very often since it's on the outside. I sent a bunch of pics to someone on etsy who paints/draws on TOMS shoes and asked him or her to draw/paint similar floral motifs on a pair of shoes so I could appreciate the aesthetic.

When I went to get a 2nd tattoo from the artist I wore the shoes because I thought she would like it. SHE. WAS. FURIOUS. I felt so badly because I didn't mean to 'steal', or 'copy'. In my mind, she's a tattoo artist who doesn't draw on shoes so it wasn't against any "code" to ask a shoe artist to draw flower/mandalas inspired by her tattoos on a pair of shoes--especially because I was paying her to tattoo me for a second time. But yeah, I learned very quickly that the tattoo industry takes any kind of copying as a huge ethical violation.

EDIT: This was probably 8+ years ago at this point and I STILL feel badly about it for not recognizing how offended/hurt she would be.

 

[yssie]

Given how hard it is to survive, in this biz... isn't it a bit much to expect vendors to turn down a job?

No. I don’t think it is.

All the vendors I choose to spend my money with will refuse to attempt a copy of a piece that they themselves didn’t make unless the customer can provide either confirmation of [non-contemporary branded] origin or confirmation of ideation ownership.

In fact they won’t even get terribly close. Even if it’s not an exact copy - too close is too close! Same as @TooPatient - the relief when they learn that you don't want any of your inspirations copied is palapable.

 

[yssie]

@oncrutchesrightnow That's a good question re. Specialty diamond cuts! To which I don't have a good answer.

I know that vendors have, in the past, taken objection to other vendors infringing on what they felt were their unique shapes and/or facet patterns. I don't believe any of those were ever adjudicated in a legal sense (not as far as I know, anyway).

I personally haven't thought about it much because it's not really feasible for a vendor to replicate another vendor's custom diamond cut on wide scale... Not at this time, anyway. But maybe this is a topic in the CS world? Or maybe it's about to be in the diamond world, with labs making diamonds so much more accessible?

 

[Rockdiamond]

because it's not really feasible for a vendor to replicate another vendor's custom diamond cut on wide scale..

This is also true of working with designs of precious metals and settings.
Each bench has a "fingerprint".....it's not possible to copy what we ( or any bench) do exactly.

There's no "right" answer here, my post was to add perspective.
Possibly based on business conditions, in your field, it is reasonable to turn down work. Maybe not even in your field, but in your opinion.
Surviving in this field is incredibly difficult. I'm not so quick to criticize honest merchants.

 

[Kalynna]

I'm a lawyer and find this subject interesting. Copyright law typically excludes "fashion" designs, such as clothing and handbags. However, it is possible to get an enforceable copyright on a jewelry design. I say "enforceable" because technically, every piece of jewelry is automatically copyrighted as soon as it is created.

But, in order to be able to enforce your copyright, you need to file an application with the USPTO. Once you have an official copyright, if someone infringes on your design (and by YOUR, I mean the jewelry designer, NOT the customer), you could sue to enforce the copyright. Then it would be your burden to prove that the defendant had access to your design, and prove that their work was substantially similar to your work. If both elements are met, then you could potentially recover damages.

Most small jewelery designers don't bother to do this because the cost and burden of registering each design, plus the cost of enforcement, is way too high.

Stone cuts are a bit different. For those, you could get a design and/or utility patent. But patent applications are very expensive and a huge pain in the butt to get! Thus, typically only the big name brands pursue them. For example, Tiffany owns patents for their True Cut and Lucida Cut diamond designs.

I've seen some discussions on this topic among lapidaries, and it appears that it is becomin more common to share their cuts with one another, but they are expected to credit the creator when using their cuts.

As for the MORAL question on copying someone else's custom jewelry design... Well, as someone who has absolutely zero artistic or design skills myself, I'm definitely guilty of using inspiration pictures to incorporate aspects into my own things. When having something custom made, I do ask to combine elements or change certain things to lessen the chances of outright copying, and I typically use the designer's own work as a reference point. Whether those references are themselves copies of something else? I don't really give it much thought as it seems so many things are, indeed, derivative.

If I did want an exact copy of someone else's ring, I would ask them who made it and whether I could use their idea - this is actually a very common practice on the Moissanite forum on Reddit, and perhaps that practice would eliminate this problem over here!

 

[icy_jade]

your point isn’t a relevant comparison.

That WOULD be TAKING something from someone. If a peer at work falsely claimed they did something that you actually did it would potentially benefit them professionally to your detriment.

As a private individual, making no gain from designing or selling jewellery, someone copying a piece of jewellery I own takes nothing from me. I don’t even know the people on this forum - but even if it was someone in my social circle I would genuinely take pleasure and pride in thinking someone liked what I designed enough to copy it.

If I customized something, and assuming it’s because I wanted it to be uniquely mine and the one and only in the world, then can you see how someone copying the exact same design would be very upsetting?

It’s not always about the dollars and cents here. That’s why other folks have brought in artistic integrity, tattoos, etc into the argument.

In full disclosure I have accepted that anything that I choose to post on a public forum may be used in some way and I have no control over the process. Like say if someone asks to see the ring gallery or side profile, do they just want to admire it or to ‘reference’ it in some way? Think before you post right? And I don’t feel that strongly about it even for designs that are uniquely my idea… though I may not like the idea all that much. But I do get that different people think differently.

I dont know you and you don’t know me but we are long time people on this forum and I think if we can all stay civil it makes for less unhappiness all around.

 

[MoxiRoxi]

Am I the only one who felt like I have to go through my phone and delete all the inspiration photos? LOL.

I love this forum because I can see so many unique, custom settings to guide me when I am ready to build my own piece. Truth be told, I‘d be a bit gun shy posting anything that had elements of someone else design now. It’s too bad because I value your thoughts and opinions and have learned so much In my time lurking around

~ M ~

 

[Rons Wolfe]

Aside from ethics conversations, blindly replicating pieces of unknown origin seems a dangerous business practice in general. Because there are houses that maintain their trademarks (or whatever else is needed!) and have deep pockets to enforce them, and with neither diligence to determine legality nor effort to alter an inspiration - running afoul of those maintained and enforceable and enforced trademarks seems inevitable.

I was looking back over this thread, and this paragraph right here made me think of an analogy that to me at least, would explain why it's easier to make something and risk the hand slap that to research every inspiration pic that's new to you;

I deal in collectibles of a very different type, and counterfeits are rampant. Some are pretty good, it takes a good look to determine they're fake. But most are crap that sells for 1/6th to 1/10th the price of the authentic, and those of us who know the product can spot them at 50 paces. So why do the counterfeiters keep putting out the crap when the ability to make good fakes is there? Because that cheaply made fake that can fool maybe 20% of collectors on a good day makes more money in the long run than spending the money to put out a good fake that can fool 80% of the people. By that same line of thought, it may be more cost effective just to make what they think a customer wants. Not making a judgement here, just putting my $.02 in of possibly why vendors don't put the time in to check if they're given an untrademarked pic as inspiration.

 

[TooPatient]

Am I the only one who felt like I have to go through my phone and delete all the inspiration photos? LOL.

I love this forum because I can see so many unique, custom settings to guide me when I am ready to build my own piece. Truth be told, I‘d be a bit gun shy posting anything that had elements of someone else design now. It’s too bad because I value your thoughts and opinions and have learned so much In my time lurking around

~ M ~

Inspiration is awesome! I think all of us who have had pieces made brought pictures of things we liked and ideas to sort of merge and shape from. Where you would run into people possibly getting upset would be a detail for detail copy or something so similar it was unmistakable. If you want something that is really close to a particular thing, ask where someone got it made or if they would mind if you had one made. For myself, I would be thrilled if someone asked my jeweler to do another of the same. I would even be fine if they asked him if they could make it elsewhere and got his permission. We wouldn't consider using a piece of literature and not crediting the author or put out a book using a painting without giving credit. If a person knows the owner or the maker of a piece of jewelry and chooses to make an identical one without at least talking with them first, I don't see how that is much different.

It is also important to remember that there are some things that are so simple or classic or whatever you want to call it that similarities will occur even so far as identical at first look. (Example being solitaire settings or like my sapphire in diamond halo pendant.)

 

[peppermintpatty]

I can only speak about my personal experience with David Klass. The first time I decided to have him do some bands for me, I recall he recognized the designer of one of the bands. He refused to make the band for me as it was. Refused. As the years have gone by I have seen bands that are very close to the original that are antiques. Had I known that at the time I would have sent one of those photo's to David.

That designer and I had a parting of the ways, I don't care to go into the details. I still admire their work but the customer service was for me unacceptable. So not only did David refuse to make the band, he has offered me time and time again the best customer service I have ever received. I am proud to say he makes my jewelry. I am grateful for someone with the integrity he has shown me. We had one ring, one time, our communication was just off.. He made that ring 3 times! He charged me one time! The 3rd time was the charm. He was adamant about getting it right.

So my experience is he is very ethical. He offers the best customer service. We just really do gel.

I am in no way saying other people haven't had their own experiences. Many people work with the designer I did in the past. I guess to me there is more than one specific thing that makes a jeweler/designer ethical. I realize this particular instance is about copying someone else's work. In my humble opinion I see David raked over the coals plenty. Some of the time repeatedly by the same person. I hope a different perspective might be refreshing.

 

[Mreader]

@peppermintpatty I must have missed a step- when you say parted ways w the designer do you mean that when David refused to make the band you went with that original designer (of the band)?

 

[Lookinagain]

@peppermintpatty I must have missed a step- when you say parted ways w the designer do you mean that when David refused to make the band you went with that original designer (of the band)?

I read the post to mean that she parted ways with the original designer over poor customer service and that is why the original designer wasn't used. Maybe I misunderstood.

 

[Niel]

If I customized something, and assuming it’s because I wanted it to be uniquely mine and the one and only in the world, then can you see how someone copying the exact same design would be very upsetting?

It’s not always about the dollars and cents here. That’s why other folks have brought in artistic integrity, tattoos, etc into the argument.

In full disclosure I have accepted that anything that I choose to post on a public forum may be used in some way and I have no control over the process. Like say if someone asks to see the ring gallery or side profile, do they just want to admire it or to ‘reference’ it in some way? Think before you post right? And I don’t feel that strongly about it even for designs that are uniquely my idea… though I may not like the idea all that much. But I do get that different people think differently.

I dont know you and you don’t know me but we are long time people on this forum and I think if we can all stay civil it makes for less unhappiness all around.

Not everyone designs a custom project because they want to be the only person in the world with that design. I custom design a project because I have a specific vision.

That’s certainly one way to look at it, but again, if that’s someone’s point of view, it would be best to consider what uncontrollable content you put out into the world.

I’ve had rings copied 100% and it brings me joy to know I was able to provide a design that spoke to others. @NKOTB

 

[peppermintpatty]

@peppermintpatty I must have missed a step- when you say parted ways w the designer do you mean that when David refused to make the band you went with that original designer (of the band)?

@Mreader sorry I wasn't more clear. I did not go with the original designer.

 

[peppermintpatty]

I read the post to mean that she parted ways with the original designer over poor customer service and that is why the original designer wasn't used. Maybe I misunderstood.

@Lookinagain you did not misunderstand, that is correct. I didn't go with the original designer.

 

[caolsen]

I can only speak about my personal experience with David Klass. The first time I decided to have him do some bands for me, I recall he recognized the designer of one of the bands. He refused to make the band for me as it was. Refused. As the years have gone by I have seen bands that are very close to the original that are antiques. Had I known that at the time I would have sent one of those photo's to David.

That designer and I had a parting of the ways, I don't care to go into the details. I still admire their work but the customer service was for me unacceptable. So not only did David refuse to make the band, he has offered me time and time again the best customer service I have ever received. I am proud to say he makes my jewelry. I am grateful for someone with the integrity he has shown me. We had one ring, one time, our communication was just off.. He made that ring 3 times! He charged me one time! The 3rd time was the charm. He was adamant about getting it right.

So my experience is he is very ethical. He offers the best customer service. We just really do gel.

I am in no way saying other people haven't had their own experiences. Many people work with the designer I did in the past. I guess to me there is more than one specific thing that makes a jeweler/designer ethical. I realize this particular instance is about copying someone else's work. In my humble opinion I see David raked over the coals plenty. Some of the time repeatedly by the same person. I hope a different perspective might be refreshing.

My customer experience with DK has been exceptional as well. I’ve had the same experience of him having to remake a piece and in my case cut new sapphires and him saying that’s ‘on him’ as DKJ didn’t execute the vision I outlined.

 

[caolsen]

I'm a lawyer and find this subject interesting. Copyright law typically excludes "fashion" designs, such as clothing and handbags. However, it is possible to get an enforceable copyright on a jewelry design. I say "enforceable" because technically, every piece of jewelry is automatically copyrighted as soon as it is created.

But, in order to be able to enforce your copyright, you need to file an application with the USPTO. Once you have an official copyright, if someone infringes on your design (and by YOUR, I mean the jewelry designer, NOT the customer), you could sue to enforce the copyright. Then it would be your burden to prove that the defendant had access to your design, and prove that their work was substantially similar to your work. If both elements are met, then you could potentially recover damages.

Most small jewelery designers don't bother to do this because the cost and burden of registering each design, plus the cost of enforcement, is way too high.

Stone cuts are a bit different. For those, you could get a design and/or utility patent. But patent applications are very expensive and a huge pain in the butt to get! Thus, typically only the big name brands pursue them. For example, Tiffany owns patents for their True Cut and Lucida Cut diamond designs.

I've seen some discussions on this topic among lapidaries, and it appears that it is becomin more common to share their cuts with one another, but they are expected to credit the creator when using their cuts.

As for the MORAL question on copying someone else's custom jewelry design... Well, as someone who has absolutely zero artistic or design skills myself, I'm definitely guilty of using inspiration pictures to incorporate aspects into my own things. When having something custom made, I do ask to combine elements or change certain things to lessen the chances of outright copying, and I typically use the designer's own work as a reference point. Whether those references are themselves copies of something else? I don't really give it much thought as it seems so many things are, indeed, derivative.

If I did want an exact copy of someone else's ring, I would ask them who made it and whether I could use their idea - this is actually a very common practice on the Moissanite forum on Reddit, and perhaps that practice would eliminate this problem over here!

Thanks for this - the callout that the protected party is the designer not the customer is salient.

It’s a broad question, but does anyone know why SMTB photos are prohibited from being maker marked? It’s the rule, okay - but why is that ‘the rule’?

 

[peppermintpatty]

My customer experience with DK has been exceptional as well. I’ve had the same experience of him having to remake a piece and in my case cut new sapphires and him saying that’s ‘on him’ as DKJ didn’t execute the vision I outlined.

@caolsen I'm happy to hear that you have had such a wonderful experience with David too. I feel he takes quite a bashing at times. I realize we all have different experiences, but I genuinely find him to have integrity, to go above and beyond with ensuring the customer is satisfied and happy. I love all of my pieces from him. He did my nephew's wedding rings. He could not have been any more gracious, patient, and kind. My nephew has no idea about jewelry. He let me handle quite a bit of it. David made it all so easy for him. My nephew and his fiancé were thrilled with the rings!!! They were so happy they went with David!

 

[Eli22]

@yssie I’m sorry that you had to experience this. I know you feel strongly about this, and I can imagine the discomfort of finding a copy of something you poured so much into.

Personally, I use DK because I am a bit of a control freak. I’ve done custom work with three other jewelers, and while I did not have a bad experience with them, I did not get exactly what I wanted. I enjoy making my own designs and being able to tweak it to my heart’s desire. In that sense, DKJ and team are perfect for my needs. When I need a “signature style” from a specific jeweler, I will work with that jeweler. When I need a piece executed exactly how I envision it, I know I can count on DK.

The one time I ordered “off the menu” from DK’s Instagram, I felt quite guilty, despite making multiple significant changes to the design. I don’t think anyone feels good about copying someone else’s art

As you’ve mentioned before: intent is key. I think you can reference inspiration pieces and put your own stamp on it, to create a version unique and meaningful to you. Unfortunately, in this internet age, I think the only foolproof way to avoid a copied design is not to share it. I can imagine a situation where a photo is pulled from Pricescope and added back to the web in a multitude of ways without ascribing ownership/origin. Then that photo gets pulled and posted again…and so on. When one doesn’t know the origin of that lovely piece they saw on Pinterest - how does one know where to begin with asking permission? Or if it’s even warranted (it seems like vintage/antique styles get a pass)? On the flip side - I don’t think a watermark will be a deterrent for someone who simply “wants what they want.” So I fully respect your decision to pull photographs of your creations, even though they add so much to PS.

As someone relatively new to the custom jewelry game, I do appreciate threads like this, as I like reading all the different opinions. These kinds of discussions can only help us become (more) mindful consumers.

 

[icy_jade]

Not everyone designs a custom project because they want to be the only person in the world with that design. I custom design a project because I have a specific vision.

That’s certainly one way to look at it, but again, if that’s someone’s point of view, it would be best to consider what uncontrollable content you put out into the world.

I’ve had rings copied 100% and it brings me joy to know I was able to provide a design that spoke to others. @NKOTB

Yes and people differ. Just because you and I don’t mind doesn’t mean everyone else MUST NOT mind.

Diversity of views and perspectives. Which is fine. Life would be boring if we all think the same.

Looks like both sides can continue rehashing the same arguments and there will still be no agreement. It’s just one of those PS threads I guess.

I did also wonder if generally more CS people don’t mind vs the diamond people as the CS itself generally isn’t all that easy to replicate (unless we are talking about semi precious stones). Like if I have a pink sapphire ring done in a certain way, finding another pink sapphire in the same shade, cut and size is close to impossible.

 

[Rfisher]

Imma fence sitter.

There’s more to this topic than what is just said in this thread - in reading these types of threads (and in other thread shoot offs) for quite a few years.

That is what keeps me on the fence, albeit uncomfortably.

Uncomfortably because there’s no definite “yeah I agree with this poster” or no “ I disagree with this poster because……”. There’s undercurrents and I’m not going to list them to sway others with the desire to have someone feel the same as I do, too.

 

[peppermintpatty]

Imma fence sitter.

There’s more to this topic than what is just said in this thread - in reading these types of threads (and in other thread shoot offs) for quite a few years.

That is what keeps me on the fence, albeit uncomfortably.

@Rfisher I don’t know anyone with a better sense of humor than you! You are wise and witty, an invaluable asset to Pricescope! Thanks for keeping it real and hysterical

 

[yssie]

Thanks for this - the callout that the protected party is the designer not the customer is salient.

And it feels very reasonable to me to assign protection and liability to the “creator”/“seller”, not who knows how many “buyers”. The law and my personal intuition are in alignment on this. It’s unfortunate that it’s so difficult/expensive for smaller outfits to take advantage of legal provisions in practice - unfortunate that in practice legal protection is only a real option for the wealthiest vendors!

It’s a broad question, but does anyone know why SMTB photos are prohibited from being maker marked? It’s the rule, okay - but why is that ‘the rule’?

I remember when this rule was created. At the time social media wasn’t a thing so PS was that much more unique! And vendors were making their logos bigger and bigger and bigger and BIGGER - I remember comparing it to flag sizes in parts of the US It was getting pretty obnoxious.

I found this post from Ella. I vaguely recall there was another thread about this change back in 2010 but I can’t find it, it must have been removed

 

[yssie]

Imma fence sitter.

This is amazing.

 

[CMN]

I am a bit late to this discussion but will give my opinion on the issues. I have only read some of the responses for far so this is not intended to address everything that has been said by others.

Re question one: I think vendors have a moral responsibility not to copy “one of a kind works“. In this case your ring, as a composition, is most clearly a one of a kind work and I disagree with the proposition (espoused by other poster/s) that because it uses other designs which are common in the trade (eg scrolls) this means it is not unique. In my opinion it is the composition that matters. Moreover, I would be surprised if any vendor shown a photo of your ring would think it an antique. The photo/s are of excellent image quality which indicates they were taken recently. Those ”recent” photos in turn depict a ring itself of superb quality in its finishing and condition. That is, with out further enquiry, the strongest inference is that this was a new piece and not somehow an antique which had managed to sustain no damage over time and be repolished to perfection.

Re question two: if my ethics are not aligned with a vendor I will more likely than not choose not to give that vendor my custom.