An email exchange with David Klass. Regarding copying other vendors' custom works.

[Karl_K]

I have been debating on posting and this is more my opinion as a person than a professional one.
The vast majority of the time when I see a thread about a ring getting copied I'm like meh its something that has been done a millions times before.
However the ring in question is more art so it does bug me a bit.
However the person who has standing to raise the issue is the original designer.
I would if possible notify the original designer and let them deal with it as they see fit.
Its ok to be upset about it on their behalf but its up to them to deal with it.

 

[kenny]

Oh.
Well, that's different.

 

[kenny]

Wow, Leon Mege is into some interesting films.
I gotta stream this film, "Mothra".
I simply must see the astounding tiniest women in all creation, sacred beauties of a lost tribe which worships a monstrous creature, Mothra!

And why is Mothra's giant cocoon parked so close to a Texaco gas station (lower-right) ?

 

[Rons Wolfe]

Copying jewellery and losing a spouse are SO many worlds apart, I don’t want anyone to ever feel a need to try to view them as equitable on my account. They’re not, not in any way, and frankly you could deliberately copy every dratted thing I own and I would still mourn a loss like yours with you. I mean that. That’s just - humanity, y’know?

I’ll own when I’m wrong. And in your first thread, even if I had a point to make I went about making it way aggressively and with way too many assumptions. And the point that I wanted to make was better directed elsewhere anyway. So thank you for accepting my apology and that makes this thread a win for me.

And I understand where you’re coming from re. Others copying your pieces, not really minding. For me it really is knotted into which vendor does the copying - I told Leon he was free to copy Mothra as many times as he wanted! Because that creation is his every bit as much as it is mine. But I know that’s not the way most people see it.

I get that, and totally agree with you. I only mention it because it sort of 'set the tone' on how I see you as a person.

I'm not sure a lot of people don't see it your way, the responses seem mixed. And certainly something for people on my side of the fence to think about. You're right about the vendor maybe having a say, but how much do you think that would apply if the client drew something up and asked for it to be made? Just curious. I know if Klass (or someone else, if I find out Klass really threw me under the bus and it was intentional) has an issue with copying, I'd just point people to him with the question. Although the next person could be like me, and not even know who the maker was until the $#!^ hit the fan.

On another note, your "jumped down your throat and held a Zumba class down there" comment will live on in infamy.

 

[Rons Wolfe]

"Meanwhile, Amy came up with what was supposed to be the first modified CAD, which I do not believe you saw, but which she just sent me. And I should also note, the starting CAD has been destroyed. This was the first iteration after initial changes, but - again - not the final iteration."


Reading back over this, and the surrounding commentary seems to insinuate that I intentionally withheld a changed CAD. I didn't. As this screenshot shows, I didn't have is until several days after my thread was removed.

 

[LLJsmom]

While I have seen DK do his best to make his clients happy, and to make what he thinks they want, I don't think he focuses on whether he was copying a particular design. (And I think he has been a professional long enough in this industry to guess at the maker of certain designs.) I can understand that from a business and customer service standpoint but I'm just not comfortable with that approach. For that reason, I have never engaged him. Cost, whether less or more, just does not come into play. That's just me, and I understand that others don't hold those same beliefs.

@yssie, knowing how much work and effort you put into a design, I can understand why you feel as strongly as you do. Others may not feel the same way about something they designed, but it does not mean you should not with something you designed, along with the designer.

 

[icy_jade]

"Meanwhile, Amy came up with what was supposed to be the first modified CAD, which I do not believe you saw, but which she just sent me. And I should also note, the starting CAD has been destroyed. This was the first iteration after initial changes, but - again - not the final iteration."


Reading back over this, and the surrounding commentary seems to insinuate that I intentionally withheld a changed CAD. Well, as this screenshot shows, it's kind of hard to withhold what I didn't have until several days after my thread was removed.

It sounds like there was a timing difference

 

[Rons Wolfe]

It sounds like there was a timing difference

That second CAD was sent to me a week after I posted the first. By then, my post had been deleted, and the only thing I had posted about this ring was about the stones themselves.

 

[icy_jade]

@Rons Wolfe Anyway from this and previous discussions you can tell that there are varying opinions on this topic so hopefully it doesn’t scare you off

 

[Rons Wolfe]

@Rons Wolfe Anyway from this and previous discussions you can tell that there are varying opinions on this topic so hopefully it doesn’t scare you off

It kind of had, but the one person who's the most influential in this instance has shown me yet again what a quality person she is, and that outweighs everyone else in here combined.

 

[mrs-b]

I wasn't sure if I was going to get into this thread, but it seems I have to, as I've been grossly maligned here;

It's true that I sent them 5 pics, but I was never asked to choose one. I never had any contact with Amy at all that I know of, David signed the few emails I've gotten from them. I got the CAD back after only asking David for the cost of doing it and providing those 5 pics. That I deliberately chose to copy Yssie's ring is a complete falsehood.

I'd also like to share the fact that all the pics I sent had no trademark stamps on them, I didn't edit a thing out.

"


Also false. They did provide me the CAD you see here, which I looked at for a few days before deciding that I don't like it, although I see one design element in it that I really liked, the fine detail he can do in the leaves. So I responded with the following email that you can't see all of, but you can see the timestamp on.


At this point I'm going to follow up with DK, and find out why this was said about me. If it's accurate, I may pull the plug on this project after all.

Hi @Rons Wolfe -

I think I've been at some disadvantage in this thread, to the extent that I hadn't seen your original thread, nor did I know who that original poster was.

But my 'most likely' picture of you before you stepped forward - and I was hoping that the customer/OP would - was that you were very new to the process and had been scared off. If you saw yourself as maligned, then I apologize. You weren't, tho. And if my assumption of 'newness' is also wrong - then I apologize for that, too - tho I don't think there's any insult in that.

But for the rest, since this has devolved into a he-said/she said situation, and I ABHOR the practice of posting private emails, I'm going to bow out at this point. This is the problem with accusative threads - they tend to bring responses that are...varied, at best. To that end, I tend to stay out of them. And I wish I had this time; it's genuinely not worth the hassle. Yssie and I have commented on this topic many times; she feels the responsibility lays with the maker, I feel it lays more with the client, without that absolving the maker from all responsibility - and I don't think this thread will change either of our opinions nor eradicate the respect we have for each other. (Sorry - I've been editing as I've gone along, and as my thoughts have developed.)

I hope you get the ring of your dreams.

 

[Rons Wolfe]

Hi @Rons Wolfe -

I think I've been at some disadvantage in this thread, to the extent that I hadn't seen your original thread, nor did I know who that original poster was.

But my 'most likely' picture of you before you stepped forward - and I was hoping that the customer/OP would - was that you were very new to the process and had been scared off. If you saw yourself as maligned, then I apologize. You weren't, tho. And if my assumption of 'newness' is also wrong - then I apologize for that, too - tho I don't think there's any insult in that.

But for the rest, since this has devolved into a he-said/she said situation, and I ABHOR the practice of posting private emails, I'm going to bow out at this point. This is the problem with accusative threads - they tend to bring responses that are...varied, at best. To that end, I tend to stay out of them. And I wish I had this time; it's genuinely not worth the hassle. Yssie and I have commented on this topic many times; she feels the responsibility lays with the maker, I feel it lays more with the client, without that absolving the maker from all responsibility - and I don't think this thread will change either of our opinions nor eradicate the respect we have for each other. (Sorry - I've been editing as I've gone along, and as my thoughts have developed.)

I hope you get the ring of your dreams.

I'm not fond of posting emails either, but with no personal content, and they're proof of my side against a false accusation, I'm going to bring it. And frankly I find that less offensive than posting someone else's CAD that you were given without their knowledge or consent. While I get what you're saying about responsibility, in cases like mine it's a case of not knowing what I don't know. I don't mind being called a newbie, we're all new at some point. What I am offended by at the comments that made it seem like I had bad intent. Yes, I was maligned by what you said, and I'm going to contact Klass about it. Depending where the fault lies and the intent I find out, it may cost them a customer.

 

[mrs-b]

@Rons Wolfe -

I'm not the bad guy in this, but let me address your comments, then have at it as much as you want - I won't be responding or following this thread because there's nothing else to be gained in this exchange.

"Maligned"? From my hypothesizing on what someone I didn't know *might* have been doing? You set a very low bar for your definition of maligned, and, if that's the case, I'd suggest growing a thicker skin before hanging out on the internet. The fact that we only have your word for it is a detail I'll skip over altogether.

Your CAD? I thought you didn't like it and that you hadn't paid for it? I believe it's DKJ's CAD, tho, sure, you might have had an arrangement with them I know nothing about. In which case - my apologies. Otherwise - nope.

You're going to contact DKJ about it? Have at it.

And lastly - and this is the real elephant in the room - if you're sending jewelers photos of other designers' pieces - inspiration or otherwise - you would do well to identify those pieces, which would have by-passed this kerfuffle altogether.

And I still hope you get the ring of your dreams, whoever you get it from.

 

[yssie]

to identify those pieces,

I’m catching up backward here -

All ideologies aside, I’m seeing that the practical onus for this point is on the person who chooses to post their photos.

SMTB doesn’t permit vendor logos on pictures, so moving forward I’ll be either not posting SMTB (or not posting altogether) or watermarking photos with my own text so there’s no ambiguity should those pictures wind up in third, fourth, fifth-party hands.

 

[musicloveranthony]

This definitely feels like it's run its course. Sometimes we all need a vent. I've learned over my life that when one is venting it's best to simply listen and empathize.

 

[Mreader]

“unlike you, I still believe that the person who sneakily pics a ring, removes a trademark stamp, then just sort of vaguely says "let's copy this...." - then posts it on PS before doing any of the modifications suggested to them and included in a latter CAD sent to them, has an agenda - and it's a self-serving one at best.”

@mrs-b I have the utmost respect for you, but with this comment especially I can see why @Rons Wolfe felt maligned, especially since you didn’t see the original thread.

 

[Mreader]

“unlike you, I still believe that the person who sneakily pics a ring, removes a trademark stamp, then just sort of vaguely says "let's copy this...." - then posts it on PS before doing any of the modifications suggested to them and included in a latter CAD sent to them, has an agenda - and it's a self-serving one at best.”

@mrs-b I have the utmost respect for you, but with this comment especially I can see why @Rons Wolfe felt maligned, especially since you didn’t see the original thread.

I edited this because the first time I used the incorrect quote. This is the quotation that came across as very harsh. You have so much influence on the forum.

 

[lovedogs]

Since SMTB doesn't allow vendor markings in photos, @Rons Wolfe had no way to know where the photos came from (e.g. what designer made them, etc). And as per her timeline, she certainly didnt withhold updated CADs in her original post.

 

[Mreader]

I don’t know nor have I worked with Leon. I can’t render a full opinion, good or bad. I do know he has content on his professional website that I consider distasteful at best. I’m not a lawyer and not certain it would have legal repercussions for slander.

In this example he bashes on the HCA. I agree the HCA provides limited usefulness but this is more than that. Others can read and form their own opinions.

There is (or was) more pages a few years back that was exposed in a different thread. This was from a 5 second Google search.

HCA Scam - Leon Megé | The Art of Platinum®

Holloway Cut Advisor (HCA) is a web-based honeypot collecting personal information under a diamond evaluating system's guise. The HCA is designed to spy on consumers, and channel leads to affiliated dealers.

leonmege.com

Omg is it terrible that I started cackling like a lunatic when I saw that he has a pic of a kangaroo next to this (which is supposed to be Gary?) . What a loon!

 

[Ionysis]

Hi @Rons Wolfe -

I think I've been at some disadvantage in this thread, to the extent that I hadn't seen your original thread, nor did I know who that original poster was.

But my 'most likely' picture of you before you stepped forward - and I was hoping that the customer/OP would - was that you were very new to the process and had been scared off. If you saw yourself as maligned, then I apologize. You weren't, tho. And if my assumption of 'newness' is also wrong - then I apologize for that, too - tho I don't think there's any insult in that.

But for the rest, since this has devolved into a he-said/she said situation, and I ABHOR the practice of posting private emails, I'm going to bow out at this point. This is the problem with accusative threads - they tend to bring responses that are...varied, at best. To that end, I tend to stay out of them. And I wish I had this time; it's genuinely not worth the hassle. Yssie and I have commented on this topic many times; she feels the responsibility lays with the maker, I feel it lays more with the client, without that absolving the maker from all responsibility - and I don't think this thread will change either of our opinions nor eradicate the respect we have for each other. (Sorry - I've been editing as I've gone along, and as my thoughts have developed.)

I hope you get the ring of your dreams.

Fully agree. I think there is something rather low about posting private correspondence publicly. This thread just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Cerulean]

I think this thread brings up an interesting topic, one that’s existed for almost as long as artistic expression. I know some people think this is a tired topic at this point, but I actually think a jewelry forum owes it to itself to mull over these things. If not here, where else?

**I’m also going to preface that I HAVE worked with DK and had him “copy” an antique Tiffany’s ring (to the best of his ability) and another design from Erstwhile that was preeeetty darn close. In hindsight, I think the latter was offensive, but I justified it to myself because a) they don’t set customer stones and b) their bench sucks anyways lol but I probably should’ve taken more of an effort to modify the design. So I’m definitely not perfect and I AM an artist and really should’ve paused to reflect. So, now that we’ve gotten that outta the way…

This is not a new debate…to copy a work with intent to benefit from is plagiarism or infringement. Whether something is copyrighted or not, I think we can all agree that this is a type of theft, it is unethical and intent matters. But it’s still not always that simple. Appropriation and inspiration are the name of the game and are not only legal, but I’d argue are critical for all artistic disciplines to grow and thrive

Picasso even said it himself “good artists copy, great artists steal” and artists have been shameless thieves for centuries! So where the heck is the line?

most artists and designers start their practice by incorporating themes, styles, topics, etc from other artists as they evolve their own voice and style. As a painter, I’ve copied masterpieces hanging in museums to understand techniques and talent that FAR exceed my skills. And this is to learn and grow. Sometimes artists actively copy to intentionally start a conversation - and sometimes that results in very expensive lawsuits!

To me there is something especially icky about copying from an independent master/artist with intent to profit from it - the independent designer that’s embroiled in their own creative genius but have neither the resources or inclination to copyright or hire massive legal teams. Small shops are an easy target… the resistance to copying well known brands seems to be more of a “common sense “ business decision versus some ethical high ground lol because THEY CAN GO AFTER YOU LEGALLY

Anyways…side tangent

Whether an artist truly has the skill to directly copy a masterpiece...is an interesting sub point. I will say @yssie rest assured that no one would reasonably be able to copy most of the pieces you own. And maybe that’s small comfort when taking a step back and looking at it in the bigger picture of what makes up the moral fabric of the artistic and creative community.

And then I think we can all take a look at the “real” and “copy” on a case by case basis and come to a sorta “you know it when you see it” conclusion. And that may vary, as it’s rather subjective. Sort of

We can sit here and say that there is truly nothing new under the sun. But I think that’s shortchanging what it means to be an artist today. The digital era has made all of this even MORE nebulous because things can be copied pixel by pixel! The short story is - if you care, protect your assets as I know you’re choosing to do @yssie - and if as we as individuals choose designs maybe do a gut check first.

If it feels a little icky, it probably is. I for one know I will NOT be copying a design again like I did with erstwhile. I did them dirty and they are a small business that presumably have paid designers on staff. I would also argue that DK at this point should know better and could’ve coached me as more of a novice but i have no interest in commanding him to change, I just won’t work with him again. PSers even know who created what photos and designs, or can tell a modern piece from an antique. You know in your gut what is as ubiquitous as the Tiffany’s soli vs a unique piece that was lovingly crafted by a genius. It’s pretty OBVIOUS to non professionals

But I know what DK will or won’t do, so I as a consumer can learn other ways to be budget conscious or getting a “look” without blatantly copying and guide a bench accordingly. And that is MY modus operandi now. So, live and let live…this is a learning process!

 

[sledge]

Omg is it terrible that I started cackling like a lunatic when I saw that he has a pic of a kangaroo next to this (which is supposed to be Gary?) . What a loon!

I believe everyone is capable and most have or will exercise lack of judgment from time to time. I know I have. Sometimes it’s intentional and other times it’s just because of a spot you are in.

A good example is close to V-Day my wife was in the hospital and I posted an inappropriate joke to this forum that was offensive. Luckily we had a moderator that saved my bacon. I was sleep deprived, in a dark spot, didn’t really think about the offensive side and made a (luckily temporary) ass out of myself. I still feel ashamed and was even greeted with “what were you thinking” in the edited comments when the post was deleted. Well I wasn’t.

But I assure you I’ve done much worse. Especially in that 18-22 era. But part of those mistakes helped forge me into the person I am today — a man that still makes plenty of mistakes but generally learns and improves from those mistakes.

It’s my opinion we will all fail. Not a matter of if but when. It’s also my opinion that as a society we cripple kids when we put them in no fail situations. We need to learn about failure and the pain that only comes with that unique crappy experience but also how to pick ourselves up and learn from the mistake so we improve ourselves and are generally stronger and better people.

The second part is so powerful and truly the most critical. But we aren’t here for a lesson on Sledge’s theory of human life.

I don’t know where Leon is in his headspace but I assume he had someone saying “is this a good idea to post and make public”. At some point he said yes. I also assume at some point before that something occurred that caused hurt and/or embarrassment that made him post that information.

Lots of assumptions in that paragraph and we know what those do. So while I may not fully understand what caused that page to exist I hope at some point Leon is able to move to a point he doesn’t have to publicize it as I feel it creates damage to his image. He may always have those strong feelings but more times than not fighting something we oppose in a diplomatic manner will yield much greater results.

 

[LLJsmom]

I think this thread brings up an interesting topic, one that’s existed for almost as long as artistic expression. I know some people think this is a tired topic at this point, but I actually think a jewelry forum owes it to itself to mull over these things. If not here, where else?

**I’m also going to preface that I HAVE worked with DK and had him “copy” an antique Tiffany’s ring (to the best of his ability) and another design from Erstwhile that was preeeetty darn close. In hindsight, I think the latter was offensive, but I justified it to myself because a) they don’t set customer stones and b) their bench sucks anyways lol but I probably should’ve taken more of an effort to modify the design. So I’m definitely not perfect and I AM an artist and really should’ve paused to reflect. So, now that we’ve gotten that outta the way…

This is not a new debate…to copy a work with intent to benefit from is plagiarism or infringement. Whether something is copyrighted or not, I think we can all agree that this is a type of theft, it is unethical and intent matters. But it’s still not always that simple. Appropriation and inspiration are the name of the game and are not only legal, but I’d argue are critical for all artistic disciplines to grow and thrive

Picasso even said it himself “good artists copy, great artists steal” and artists have been shameless thieves for centuries! So where the heck is the line?

most artists and designers start their practice by incorporating themes, styles, topics, etc from other artists as they evolve their own voice and style. As a painter, I’ve copied masterpieces hanging in museums to understand techniques and talent that FAR exceed my skills. And this is to learn and grow. Sometimes artists actively copy to intentionally start a conversation - and sometimes that results in very expensive lawsuits!

To me there is something especially icky about copying from an independent master/artist with intent to profit from it - the independent designer that’s embroiled in their own creative genius but have neither the resources or inclination to copyright or hire massive legal teams. Small shops are an easy target… the resistance to copying well known brands seems to be more of a “common sense “ business decision versus some ethical high ground lol because THEY CAN GO AFTER YOU LEGALLY

Anyways…side tangent

Whether an artist truly has the skill to directly copy a masterpiece...is an interesting sub point. I will say @yssie rest assured that no one would reasonably be able to copy most of the pieces you own. And maybe that’s small comfort when taking a step back and looking at it in the bigger picture of what makes up the moral fabric of the artistic and creative community.

And then I think we can all take a look at the “real” and “copy” on a case by case basis and come to a sorta “you know it when you see it” conclusion. And that may vary, as it’s rather subjective. Sort of

We can sit here and say that there is truly nothing new under the sun. But I think that’s shortchanging what it means to be an artist today. The digital era has made all of this even MORE nebulous because things can be copied pixel by pixel! The short story is - if you care, protect your assets as I know you’re choosing to do @yssie - and if as we as individuals choose designs maybe do a gut check first.

If it feels a little icky, it probably is. I for one know I will NOT be copying a design again like I did with erstwhile. I did them dirty and they are a small business that presumably have paid designers on staff. I would also argue that DK at this point should know better and could’ve coached me as more of a novice but i have no interest in commanding him to change, I just won’t work with him again. PSers even know who created what photos and designs, or can tell a modern piece from an antique. You know in your gut what is as ubiquitous as the Tiffany’s soli vs a unique piece that was lovingly crafted by a genius. It’s pretty OBVIOUS to non professionals

But I know what DK will or won’t do, so I as a consumer can learn other ways to be budget conscious or getting a “look” without blatantly copying and guide a bench accordingly. And that is MY modus operandi now. So, live and let live…this is a learning process!

@Cerulean - thank you so much for your very thoughtful post. Your highlighted section caused a lightbulb moment for me, and I am about to go on a tangent. Hope @yssie won't mind, but it does relate to the topic of integrity. My 17 year old daughter just went through the process of applying to college, specifically in visual arts/media. For certain schools, she was asked to submit a number of "original" works, and she ended up not applying to those schools. I asked her why she didn't just submit the pieces that she did in art school, which she has been attending since she was 7. And she said that those were all copies. In my naivete I assumed original mean "done" by her, but she refused to submit any of her beautiful art pieces, and that was that. Her pieces, her decision. Goodbye RISD, USC, UCLA (and whether she would have been accepted is debatable) And now I understand, and completely respect her decision. To me, this is integrity. She gave up on the hope because she was clear in her mind, as an artist, what is considered original, regardless of the cost. In this day and age of the internet, this can be hard to expect and uphold. And I can see from this discussion, people have different definitions of integrity and even if similar definitions, they may not prioritize it. I told @yssie that if I were her, meaning if I had invested the hours and mental and emotional energy with an artist to create such an amazing piece, and I found it copied on PS, I would just take my pictures and leave. I don't have the courage and strength to stand up and state my feelings about it, and listen to opposing opinions, which of course exist. I would not want to know. It would add to the hurt.

 

[yssie]

@Cerulean - thank you so much for your very thoughtful post. Your highlighted section caused a lightbulb moment for me, and I am about to go on a tangent. Hope @yssie won't mind, but it does relate to the topic of integrity. My 17 year old daughter just went through the process of applying to college, specifically in visual arts/media. For certain schools, she was asked to submit a number of "original" works, and she ended up not applying to those schools. I asked her why she didn't just submit the pieces that she did in art school, which she has been attending since she was 7. And she said that those were all copies. In my naivete I assumed original mean "done" by her, but she refused to submit any of her beautiful art pieces, and that was that. Her pieces, her decision. Goodbye RISD, USC, UCLA (and whether she would have been accepted is debatable) And now I understand, and completely respect her decision. To me, this is integrity. She gave up on the hope because she was clear in her mind, as an artist, what is considered original, regardless of the cost. In this day and age of the internet, this can be hard to expect and uphold. And I can see from this discussion, people have different definitions of integrity and even if similar definitions, they may not prioritize it. I told @yssie that if I were her, meaning if I had invested the hours and mental and emotional energy with an artist to create such an amazing piece, and I found it copied on PS, I would just take my pictures and leave. I don't have the courage and strength to stand up and state my feelings about it, and listen to opposing opinions, which of course exist. I would not want to know. It would add to the hurt.

LLJsmom your daughter‘s passion, intelligence, drive, practicality, integrity, and empathy is… Inspirational. I know I’ve said that before, but I need to say it again now. She’s seriously such a well-adjusted young woman!! And I *know* that whatever she chooses to do, she’ll succeed in - and she’ll inspire so many others on her journey

 

[Cerulean]

@Cerulean - thank you so much for your very thoughtful post. Your highlighted section caused a lightbulb moment for me, and I am about to go on a tangent. Hope @yssie won't mind, but it does relate to the topic of integrity. My 17 year old daughter just went through the process of applying to college, specifically in visual arts/media. For certain schools, she was asked to submit a number of "original" works, and she ended up not applying to those schools. I asked her why she didn't just submit the pieces that she did in art school, which she has been attending since she was 7. And she said that those were all copies. In my naivete I assumed original mean "done" by her, but she refused to submit any of her beautiful art pieces, and that was that. Her pieces, her decision. Goodbye RISD, USC, UCLA (and whether she would have been accepted is debatable) And now I understand, and completely respect her decision. To me, this is integrity. She gave up on the hope because she was clear in her mind, as an artist, what is considered original, regardless of the cost. In this day and age of the internet, this can be hard to expect and uphold. And I can see from this discussion, people have different definitions of integrity and even if similar definitions, they may not prioritize it. I told @yssie that if I were her, meaning if I had invested the hours and mental and emotional energy with an artist to create such an amazing piece, and I found it copied on PS, I would just take my pictures and leave. I don't have the courage and strength to stand up and state my feelings about it, and listen to opposing opinions, which of course exist. I would not want to know. It would add to the hurt.

Wow. I appreciate you sharing. She sounds like a very special young woman! It IS a very complicated issue and I can say that many people would not have acted with the same level of thoughtfulness as she did, certainly not at that age. She took a position on the matter and stuck with it! Good for her. I’d be very proud of her for making that call, on her own.

I hope she continues to create art regardless of whether she goes to art school for undergrad. There are also a lot of amazing art teachers at liberal arts schools…and heck, she can always build a portfolio of works she feels like she can stand by and apply later, either to transfer or for grad school!

 

[LLJsmom]

LLJsmom your daughter‘s passion, intelligence, drive, practicality, integrity, and empathy is… Inspirational. I know I’ve said that before, but I need to say it again now. She’s seriously such a well-adjusted young woman!! And I *know* that whatever she chooses to do, she’ll succeed in - and she’ll inspire so many others on her journey

Thank you @yssie. I know you've told me, but maybe it didn't click until now. I think you may be right. My bar may be low, but she will be ok. Sorry to derail your thread. My last post about this.

Wow. I appreciate you sharing. She sounds like a very special young woman! It IS a very complicated issue and I can say that many people would not have acted with the same level of thoughtfulness as she did, certainly not at that age. She took a position on the matter and stuck with it! Good for her. I’d be very proud of her for making that call, on her own.

I hope she continues to create art regardless of whether she goes to art school for undergrad. There are also a lot of amazing art teachers at liberal arts schools…and heck, she can always build a portfolio of works she feels like she can stand by and apply later, either to transfer or for grad school!

Thank you @Cerulean. It didn't click that it was a complicated issue with regard to my daughter because she said no and shut down the conversation, quite abruptly I might add. I am not worried because she is very creative in many areas, but hasn't done a lot of original studio art. Thank you for helping me understand the issue with regard to the creation of original works, in whatever field, better. Yes, I see that there is a price to pay for not copying. And some people are not ok with that price and some people are. Maybe the trick is to know where you stand, where others stand, and how far you need to stand AWAY from certain "others".

 

[lilmosun]

My initial reaction to this thread that someone copying on of my pieces would be a compliment and not upset me in the slightest. But then again, I don't invest the time that others do in designs...and nothing I've done reaches the level of yssie's pieces which are works of art imo.

But as I read Yssies explanation for her feeling, I think I came to better understand where she is coming from and don't say I disagree. Most of my ring designs are collaborations with CRD. The result is a joint effort regardless of how much of it is my ideas vs hers. While I have no problem with her putting one of my custom rings in her shop for others to emulate, I would be upset if another shop copied it...because it is CRD's business and livelihood. Copying hurts small designers/shops as much as, if not more than, well known brands.

Not sure I understand David's response or where he stands...instead of explaining that this CAD was never intended to be made but a starting point for design discussions, his response was definitely poking the angry bear. Only when mrs-b reached out did he attempt to diffuse the situation imo. While he specializes in doing custom work, from what I have seen, I am not sure his focus is "one-of-a-kind" in terms of design as stated.

But as David points out there can be a grey area when the line is crossed and when it's okay. One can cross the line totally without intent to harm. So while it's okay to make feelings known, we would do better to first try and give the other side the benefit of the doubt.

Regardless of you PoV, I think BOTH the client and the vendor have a responsibility to use their own moral compass and stick by it. One might be more informed or have information the other does not...or like many things, there is disagreement on what is right and what is wrong. Moving ahead with something you feel is wrong because of the desire of another still makes you complicit.

 

[Inked]

I dont know if I belong here because i dont feel as knowledgeable or passionate about it as some of you but I have 2 quick things to share.

FIRST: The thing *I* personally love about yssie and HAVE ALWAYS loved, is she sticks by what she believes. She is passionate about it, honest about it, doesnt hide it and, I feel, does it TRULY from just such a TRUE LOVE of jewelry. My interactions have sometimes been where she doesnt agree with something i am trying to do (I have a frankenring that was my first post on here) but she was trying to help me, and was not offended that i didn't take her advice, she truly just loves jewelry and wanted to share he knowledge and experiences. She wanted to share her knowledge and thoughts and didn't just try to placate me. She stands up for what she believes and most people dont do that, they echo chamber or are afraid to offend someone so they dont speak their truth. I love that yssie and I didnt agree, but she still came back and said 'wow, that came out beautiful'. She is able to disagree and move on. Most people arent emotionally mature enough to do that.

So, I am someone who uses and loves using DK and I will tell you why...

When setting out on my first ring project, I started with a local jeweler. I had a very clear vision on what I wanted. I drew it, i photoshopped it. I was clear with mm and angles. They didnt listen at all, it was so frustrating. I was telling them and drawing exactly what I wanted and it was like they just did whatever they wanted. I got the CAD and was like, "What even is this?!" They didnt listen to anything i asked for.

So, after that experience, two other vendors who are loved and respected on here and perhaps considered a little more, "high end" (for lack of a better term) I also asked with my drawings and photoshop and both also basically didnt listen to me, did what they wanted, or said what I wanted couldnt be done.

Then I went to David. He actually LISTENED to me, he heard me, he did EXACTLY what i wanted. He asked questions to make sure he gave me what I wanted. I had heard that he would copy a design so i felt it was on me to not allow it. I felt the obligation was MINE. I used him because he actually listened. I am artistic, i am capable of designing my own piece. I felt it was insulting to me that the 3 other vendors were just acting like i wasnt capable of creating something or they were too (I'm struggling for the right word here) stuck up to use my ideas. Only their ideas were the right ones. I wanted to make it myself, i knew what I wanted and David was the only one who actually listened and did it for me.

I agree that there is nothing truly new, but we all take elements we love and mash them together and make something that is our own, maybe its not 'new' but it's ours. I think maybe the trouble can be when someone doesnt know what they want at all and is asking a bench to copy a design, which they shouldnt do, the consumer should go to the original then.

My wedding band is unique and I designed it myself and was very proud of it, and a few people asked me if they could make it and I always say DO IT!! I am actually honored, because I know what it means, I know its a symbol of my love with my husband and I designed it as such and I am honored that other people are wearing it and spreading a symbol of MY marriage!

Metal and gems are the mediums here, but art is art. Im sure a lot of us have had designs copies and we dont even know about it. Thats I guess the risk we all take when posting. If they dont post their copy, we never know it happened.

I have had my tattoo art copied. One in particular that I drew and was really meaningful to me. It was one of my fist, it was like 25-30 years ago. People, especially women, were not heavily tattooed at that time. The tattoo i drew was Bastet, the ancient cat goddess. I drew it from a statue that I bought form the Smithsonian art museum. Lissyflo has it as their avatar. I decided to give Bastet a HUGE wing that would come across half my back. i had NEVER seen a depiction of Bastet with wings. And TRUST ME, i looked (this is 30 years ago, the internet was less sharing than it s now). Now I see my tattoo copied, shirts with it, all sorts of depictions of my Bastet. Not only the art, but even the placement, which again, at the time was unique. Now everyone is tattooed and nothing is really that unique, but back then it was. I have mixed feelings. Part of me is like "I'm the GOAT!" Part of me just wants to be able to tell the person "Hey, this is mine, maybe you could just ask..." or "I want to tell you the story of how i came up with this and tell you what it means" or even "Hey, just FYI this was a coverup so you dont need these extraneous lines" or "Hey, just so you know in 25 years that cat is going to migrate south and look more like a warthog"

 

[musicloveranthony]

"Hey, just so you know in 25 years that cat is going to migrate south and look more like a warthog"

This was a shock

 

[Mreader]

This was a shock

I really need to see this tattoo now @Inked