An email exchange with David Klass. Regarding copying other vendors' custom works.

[Rons Wolfe]

@Rons Wolfe -

I'm not the bad guy in this, but let me address your comments, then have at it as much as you want - I won't be responding or following this thread because there's nothing else to be gained in this exchange.

"Maligned"? From my hypothesizing on what someone I didn't know *might* have been doing? You set a very low bar for your definition of maligned, and, if that's the case, I'd suggest growing a thicker skin before hanging out on the internet. The fact that we only have your word for it is a detail I'll skip over altogether.

Your CAD? I thought you didn't like it and that you hadn't paid for it? I believe it's DKJ's CAD, tho, sure, you might have had an arrangement with them I know nothing about. In which case - my apologies. Otherwise - nope.

You're going to contact DKJ about it? Have at it.

And lastly - and this is the real elephant in the room - if you're sending jewelers photos of other designers' pieces - inspiration or otherwise - you would do well to identify those pieces, which would have by-passed this kerfuffle altogether.

And I still hope you get the ring of your dreams, whoever you get it from.

Hypothesizing, yeah. And stating some of the accusations as fact. I'm sorry you don't like where I set my bar, I'll just say I'd have never accused you like you did me.

My CAD as in sent to me for a ring I'm working on getting made. And you had no way to know I didn't like it until after you posted it. Apparently even Klass hasn't read my email asking for changes.

Lastly, the pic I have of her ring doesn't show the designer anymore than the others I have do. Of about 40 total pics I collected from here, ebay, and google only one has a designer logo, and I didn't use that one.

And just a note over 'abhoring' that I posted redacted emails, this whole thread is founded on posted emails.

 

[Inked]

I really need to see this tattoo now @Inked

I promise 2 things, 1 i will take a pic of it later and post it, and 2. the tattoo is now 25 years old, I'm now 50 years old .....and it has migrated south and looks like a warthog.



@yssie i mean no disrespect to the gravity of your thread or your point, i was just trying to bring some humor to the reality of what happens when people copy your designs.

 

[Rons Wolfe]

I’m catching up backward here -

All ideologies aside, I’m seeing that the practical onus for this point is on the person who chooses to post their photos.

SMTB doesn’t permit vendor logos on pictures, so moving forward I’ll be either not posting SMTB (or not posting altogether) or watermarking photos with my own text so there’s no ambiguity should those pictures wind up in third, fourth, fifth-party hands.

I wonder if you might gome up with a 'logo' of your own that would not be able to be cropped out, but would still leave the beauty of the piece of jewelry showing it's beauty. Would sure beat you no longer posting over this.

 

[Rons Wolfe]

Since SMTB doesn't allow vendor markings in photos, @Rons Wolfe had no way to know where the photos came from (e.g. what designer made them, etc). And as per her timeline, she certainly didnt withhold updated CADs in her original post.

Thank you. Nor did I withhold any suggested changes, but none had yet been made.

 

[Rons Wolfe]

I promise 2 things, 1 i will take a pic of it later and post it, and 2. the tattoo is now 25 years old, I'm now 50 years old .....and it has migrated south and looks like a warthog.



@yssie i mean no disrespect to the gravity of your thread or your point, i was just trying to bring some humor to the reality of what happens when people copy your designs.

I want to see it too!

 

[yssie]

I dont know if I belong here because i dont feel as knowledgeable or passionate about it as some of you but I have 2 quick things to share.

FIRST: The thing *I* personally love about yssie and HAVE ALWAYS loved, is she sticks by what she believes. She is passionate about it, honest about it, doesnt hide it and, I feel, does it TRULY from just such a TRUE LOVE of jewelry. My interactions have sometimes been where she doesnt agree with something i am trying to do (I have a frankenring that was my first post on here) but she was trying to help me, and was not offended that i didn't take her advice, she truly just loves jewelry and wanted to share he knowledge and experiences. She wanted to share her knowledge and thoughts and didn't just try to placate me. She stands up for what she believes and most people dont do that, they echo chamber or are afraid to offend someone so they dont speak their truth. I love that yssie and I didnt agree, but she still came back and said 'wow, that came out beautiful'. She is able to disagree and move on. Most people arent emotionally mature enough to do that.

So, I am someone who uses and loves using DK and I will tell you why...

When setting out on my first ring project, I started with a local jeweler. I had a very clear vision on what I wanted. I drew it, i photoshopped it. I was clear with mm and angles. They didnt listen at all, it was so frustrating. I was telling them and drawing exactly what I wanted and it was like they just did whatever they wanted. I got the CAD and was like, "What even is this?!" They didnt listen to anything i asked for.

So, after that experience, two other vendors who are loved and respected on here and perhaps considered a little more, "high end" (for lack of a better term) I also asked with my drawings and photoshop and both also basically didnt listen to me, did what they wanted, or said what I wanted couldnt be done.

Then I went to David. He actually LISTENED to me, he heard me, he did EXACTLY what i wanted. He asked questions to make sure he gave me what I wanted. I had heard that he would copy a design so i felt it was on me to not allow it. I felt the obligation was MINE. I used him because he actually listened. I am artistic, i am capable of designing my own piece. I felt it was insulting to me that the 3 other vendors were just acting like i wasnt capable of creating something or they were too (I'm struggling for the right word here) stuck up to use my ideas. Only their ideas were the right ones. I wanted to make it myself, i knew what I wanted and David was the only one who actually listened and did it for me.

I agree that there is nothing truly new, but we all take elements we love and mash them together and make something that is our own, maybe its not 'new' but it's ours. I think maybe the trouble can be when someone doesnt know what they want at all and is asking a bench to copy a design, which they shouldnt do, the consumer should go to the original then.

My wedding band is unique and I designed it myself and was very proud of it, and a few people asked me if they could make it and I always say DO IT!! I am actually honored, because I know what it means, I know its a symbol of my love with my husband and I designed it as such and I am honored that other people are wearing it and spreading a symbol of MY marriage!

Metal and gems are the mediums here, but art is art. Im sure a lot of us have had designs copies and we dont even know about it. Thats I guess the risk we all take when posting. If they dont post their copy, we never know it happened.

I have had my tattoo art copied. One in particular that I drew and was really meaningful to me. It was one of my fist, it was like 25-30 years ago. People, especially women, were not heavily tattooed at that time. The tattoo i drew was Bastet, the ancient cat goddess. I drew it from a statue that I bought form the Smithsonian art museum. Lissyflo has it as their avatar. I decided to give Bastet a HUGE wing that would come across half my back. i had NEVER seen a depiction of Bastet with wings. And TRUST ME, i looked (this is 30 years ago, the internet was less sharing than it s now). Now I see my tattoo copied, shirts with it, all sorts of depictions of my Bastet. Not only the art, but even the placement, which again, at the time was unique. Now everyone is tattooed and nothing is really that unique, but back then it was. I have mixed feelings. Part of me is like "I'm the GOAT!" Part of me just wants to be able to tell the person "Hey, this is mine, maybe you could just ask..." or "I want to tell you the story of how i came up with this and tell you what it means" or even "Hey, just FYI this was a coverup so you dont need these extraneous lines" or "Hey, just so you know in 25 years that cat is going to migrate south and look more like a warthog"

So this is totally one of those posts that makes me wish you could respond with more than one emoticon - I’m torn three ways equal between a heart, a like, and a cracking the f up…

 

[Rons Wolfe]

So this is totally one of those posts that makes me wish you could respond with more than one emoticon - I’m torn three ways equal between a heart, a like, and a cracking the f up…

^^^^ THIS!!!!!

 

[yssie]

Regarding sharing emails - it’s not my favourite thing to do either, but if I was going to create this thread there was no alternative. I wouldn’t have trusted myself to paraphrase the responses I received - and let’s be honest, even if I’d tried no one would have trusted it My compromise was letting the other party know explicitly and giving him the opportunity to decline; I received no response so I went ahead exactly as I’d outlined I would

And, um, for anyone wondering why I was cricket with having Leon copy the inspiration flower ring in my Mothra -
1. Leon made the original ring, and
2. I confirmed with him that he’d made the original ring for stock - it wasn’t a custom creation for a client , and
3. He was a-okay copying it for me.

I’m smiling catching up on this thread. Thank you to everyone who feels strongly enough - about me, about this topic, about their own experiences - to participate! I know this is a hot button issue and it requires a certain degree of trust and confidence to say anything at all, knowing that others won’t agree.

 

[Rons Wolfe]

Regarding sharing emails - it’s not my favourite thing to do either, but if I was going to create this thread there was no alternative. I wouldn’t have trusted myself to paraphrase the responses I received - and let’s be honest, even if I’d tried no one would have trusted it My compromise was letting the other party know explicitly and giving him the opportunity to decline; I received no response so I went ahead exactly as I’d outlined I would

And, um, for anyone wondering why I was cricket with having Leon copy the inspiration flower ring in my Mothra -
1. Leon made the original ring, and
2. I confirmed with him that he’d made the original ring for stock - it wasn’t a custom creation for a client

Trust me, I'm not bashing you for posting them, I know it's the only way you could have brought your issue to this forum without people trying to pick apart your explanation of what happened. I only mention it because of what was said to me for posting part of me emails with the same vendor.

As for Mothra, I'm not sure there's very many jewelers who COULD do something like that!!!

 

[marymm]

If this were my thread, here's what I'd have said:

title -- SHOUT OUT TO RESPONSIVE VENDOR

Hey everybody, many of you PSers recognize this 5-stone ring I had custom-made some years back.

Well, in a recent thread by another PS member I was gobsmacked to find a CAD prepared by David Klass which appeared identical to one side of my ring!

So, I reached out to DK and we had a back-and-forth convo about the design.

He confirmed he received the photo (without any jeweler marking) among several photos from a client, and that now he was on notice it was another's jeweler's design, he would never replicate it.

Yay to a vendor who was positively and quickly responsive to a consumer who is actually not the legal holder of the copyright interest and thus has no standing to act to protect it!

I will admit I was disappointed that David Klass failed to be bullied and ignored my other requests requiring him to take action well beyond the scope of industry practices (i.e., make exhaustive Internet searches of every photo submitted to him, and to query every client as to where and how they found their inspiration photos).

The main take-away is, some vendors know their rights and their obligations, and David Klass is one to take quick positive action when notified of copyright issues.

 

[yssie]

@marymm A correction: If you reread the emails, you’ll note that I did not in fact notify David Klass of any copyright issues. I would need a much better understanding of our legal system to broach that conversation.

But I’m imagining what would have happened had this been a VCA high jewellery piece, say, and I’d informed my SA, and… I admit, I chuckled.

 

[yssie]

Alrighty folks! I’ve expressed everything I felt that I needed to convey here, in terms of both OP and responses to other posts. Again, glad everyone else felt comfy sharing their feelings, and especially appreciate those who took the time to read the exchange thoroughly and critically, and then opine thoughtfully and politely, wherever y’all landed on these topic(s).

I’m leaving this thread open but I’ve got yard work to finish and pets to chauffeur ‘round and a day job to prep for and ailing family to tend - so I’ll pretty much be MIA. This thread has been fascinating, and productive, and someone else said it’s probably run its course now and I agree with that assessment, so FYI on why I’m gone

 

[Rons Wolfe]

I'm sorry to hear about the ailing family, I hope it's something that will get better.

 

[canuk-gal]

Alrighty folks! I’ve expressed everything I felt that I needed to convey here, in terms of both OP and responses to other posts. Again, glad everyone else felt comfy sharing their feelings, and especially appreciate those who took the time to read the exchange thoroughly and critically, and then opine thoughtfully and politely, wherever y’all landed on these topic(s).

I’m leaving this thread open but I’ve got yard work to finish and pets to chauffeur ‘round and a day job to prep for and ailing family to tend - so I’ll pretty much be MIA. This thread has been fascinating, and productive, and someone else said it’s probably run its course now and I agree with that assessment, so I’m comfy signing off at this time

Signing off , but please don't go far. Promise?

 

[Rons Wolfe]

Signing off , but please don't go far. Promise?

Make her pinky-swear she won't go far!

 

[OreoRosies86]

This has been a decade long issue, and I just don’t get it. DK does beautiful work at a reasonable price point. You’ve called him every name under the sun, and now this incredibly hostile email. If it were me I’d feel better letting it go and just enjoy my jewelry, but that’s just my $0.02

 

[HS4S_2]

@Cerulean - thank you so much for your very thoughtful post. Your highlighted section caused a lightbulb moment for me, and I am about to go on a tangent. Hope @yssie won't mind, but it does relate to the topic of integrity. My 17 year old daughter just went through the process of applying to college, specifically in visual arts/media. For certain schools, she was asked to submit a number of "original" works, and she ended up not applying to those schools. I asked her why she didn't just submit the pieces that she did in art school, which she has been attending since she was 7. And she said that those were all copies. In my naivete I assumed original mean "done" by her, but she refused to submit any of her beautiful art pieces, and that was that. Her pieces, her decision. Goodbye RISD, USC, UCLA (and whether she would have been accepted is debatable) And now I understand, and completely respect her decision. To me, this is integrity. She gave up on the hope because she was clear in her mind, as an artist, what is considered original, regardless of the cost. In this day and age of the internet, this can be hard to expect and uphold. And I can see from this discussion, people have different definitions of integrity and even if similar definitions, they may not prioritize it. I told @yssie that if I were her, meaning if I had invested the hours and mental and emotional energy with an artist to create such an amazing piece, and I found it copied on PS, I would just take my pictures and leave. I don't have the courage and strength to stand up and state my feelings about it, and listen to opposing opinions, which of course exist. I would not want to know. It would add to the hurt.

I wanted to touch on this post because it is heartwarming and I totally understand where your daughter is coming from. My daughter is also an artist and does a lot of art on a digital pad. She also would not submit a lot of art she created in art school and submitted what she felt was her creation. It was a tough situation because many projects she has created have been an interpretation of another piece or subject. As an example....she has spent a lot of time drawing super heroes and she says those are not her own creation. It opened my eyes to quite a different point of view when we had this discussion when applications for schools went in.

 

[LLJsmom]

I wanted to touch on this post because it is heartwarming and I totally understand where your daughter is coming from. My daughter is also an artist and does a lot of art on a digital pad. She also would not submit a lot of art she created in art school and submitted what she felt was her creation. It was a tough situation because many projects she has created have been an interpretation of another piece or subject. As an example....she has spent a lot of time drawing super heroes and she says those are not her own creation. It opened my eyes to quite a different point of view when we had this discussion when applications for schools went in.

Proud of both our girls. Yes. Seeing this through the eyes of an artist definitely provides a different perspective, especially for a very uncreative person like me. It shows me how artists view their own creations, pieces that spring from the core of who they are as a human being. That is why it matters to them, and why many artists do pay each other that respect. And also why a person who doesn’t create, like me, would find it hard to understand. Regardless of whether I understand or whether it violates an enforceable law, it doesn’t invalidate the artist’s feeling of violation and betrayal.

 

[oncrutchesrightnow]

Aw sucks, I just finished reading this thread and then @yssie had to go before I could offer some empathy for her frustration. If you ever come back to this thread, sorry this whole thing hurt so much.

Fortunately she said she would leave the thread open so we could continue the conversation, which is much appreciated, because there is a question… what about diamond/gemstone cuts? Legally and ethically?

Personally if a specialized cut were in production and the inventor was making money off of it, I would not want to copy. If there were a patent or some law prohibiting it then I definitely would not. But what if the cut is no longer in production or a patent does not apply? Am asking for legit advice.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/help-finding-lgd-like-a-spring-cut.278067/#post-5237569

To answer the question from this thread on settings, I expect vendors to:
-Follow the law
-Follow the industry standard
-Follow their own moral compass

The industry standard in tattooing is that both the tattooer and the client have an expectation that another tattooer will not copy without consent. Copying happens but the copy-tooer would lose clout in the industry. So the tattoo industry standard would nix what happened with @yssie

‘Based on my experience with jewelry vendors trusted on PS, the jewelry industry standard seems to be that the vendor owns the design, the customer does not limit the use of the design, and that if other vendors copy, copying is not fatal to other vendor’s’ reputations. It also seems that there is a courtesy back-off-from copying when requested by people who know each other or customers or vendors who have the experience to know they can make the request. Anybody from Trade want to chime in?

 

[Ionysis]

I have a daughter too who is 10 years old.

She has not been formally diagnosed yet but we suspect she is on the autism spectrum.

She is extremely focussed on exactitude and symmetry. She also is constantly aware of precisely what she is getting in comparison to her sister and friends. She is very resistant to the concept of sharing what she considers to be fairly “hers”. Even if she has finished a meal she will sometimes rather have the leftovers thrown in the bin than see anyone else eat them - because the food is “hers” and as such no one else should be able to have it - even if she doesn’t want it anymore.

If she gets given something she needs to be sure it’s is exactly as good, or better, than her sister. If she earns pocket money and her sister is just given money without doing the same work she is outraged. She feels somehow that unless what she has is uniquely for her or better or bigger than her sister that it isn’t right.

I spend a lot of my time trying to teach her that she needs to focus on appreciating what she has rather than comparing it to others and attempting to stop other people getting the same as she does. I have to explain that someone else having something isn’t taking anything AWAY from her. Me giving her sister the same as I give her doesn’t diminish the value of what she has got herself. If she asks for a toy and gets exactly what she asked for it shouldn’t matter what toy her sister gets. It’s irrelevant. She got exactly what she asked for and gets to enjoy playing with it and it’s absolutely hers. What her sister does and what she owns doesn’t affect that.

This thread reminds me of dealing with my 10 year old daughter.

 

[springerspaniel]

This was a shock

I hope you will forgive a minor threadjack. My grandmother hitchhiked across the US in the early 1900's and got a (then scandalous) tattoo on her thigh. Many years later, when I saw it, I asked why she had gotten a duck tattooed on her thigh.

Apparently it was a rose.

 

[CircularBrilliant]

I have a daughter too who is 10 years old.

She has not been formally diagnosed yet but we suspect she is on the autism spectrum.

She is extremely focussed on exactitude and symmetry. She also is constantly aware of precisely what she is getting in comparison to her sister and friends. She is very resistant to the concept of sharing what she considers to be fairly “hers”. Even if she has finished a meal she will sometimes rather have the leftovers thrown in the bin than see anyone else eat them - because the food is “hers” and as such no one else should be able to have it - even if she doesn’t want it anymore.

If she gets given something she needs to be sure it’s is exactly as good, or better, than her sister. If she earns pocket money and her sister is just given money without doing the same work she is outraged. She feels somehow that unless what she has is uniquely for her or better or bigger than her sister that it isn’t right.

I spend a lot of my time trying to teach her that she needs to focus on appreciating what she has rather than comparing it to others and attempting to stop other people getting the same as she does. I have to explain that someone else having something isn’t taking anything AWAY from her. Me giving her sister the same as I give her doesn’t diminish the value of what she has got herself. If she asks for a toy and gets exactly what she asked for it shouldn’t matter what toy her sister gets. It’s irrelevant. She got exactly what she asked for and gets to enjoy playing with it and it’s absolutely hers. What her sister does and what she owns doesn’t affect that.

This thread reminds me of dealing with my 10 year old daughter.

How sad for your daughter that you should see her and what you believe to be her autism as something to use as an insult.

 

[icy_jade]

I think it’s time to close this thread people.

 

[yssie]

Suffice to say that I also feel it’s wholly inappropriate to reference a child’s emotional and developmental challenges in this manner.
(Edited multiple times.)

I’d rather not have the thread closed entirely but if it continues to devolve I most certainly will. I’ve alerted the mods to the post.

 

[Ionysis]

How sad for your daughter that you should see her and what you believe to be her autism as something to use as an insult.

I see it as instructional and a valuable life lesson for us all. I find it unfortunate that anyone would prevent another from having something beautiful because they see it as somehow taking something away from them. What’s yours is yours. Take joy in it. What someone else has affects you in no way and takes nothing from you. If you created something you love which someone else also adores and wants to share be proud that you have been able to pass that joy on to another. I’m trying to teach my child to find the value in giving and sharing, especially during Ramadan. I would love everyone to be able to feel that.

 

[lovedogs]

I see it as instructional and a valuable life lesson for us all. I find it unfortunate that anyone would prevent another from having something beautiful because they see it as somehow taking something away from them. What’s yours is yours. Take joy in it. What someone else has affects you in no way and takes nothing from you. If you created something you love which someone else also adores and wants to share be proud that you have been able to pass that joy on to another. I’m trying to teach my child to find the value in giving and sharing, especially during Ramadan. I would love everyone to be able to feel that.

Your comments arent relevant at all to what @yssie is taking about (in my view).

She isnt upset that someone else is "taking" something from her. The entire thread is about whether artists/owners of one of a kind pieces have "rights" to those pieces (even if they cant enforce copyright rules).

And as someone who works with children on the spectrum, the fact that you are using her challenges to insult another PSer is, frankly, appalling.

 

[icy_jade]

What someone else has affects you in no way and takes nothing from you. If you created something you love which someone else also adores and wants to share be proud that you have been able to pass that joy on to another.

Do you feel the same way when someone takes credit for the work that you do in the office? Genuinely curious.

 

[Ionysis]

Do you feel the same way when someone takes credit for the work that you do in the office? Genuinely curious.

As a rule I generally pass credit on to my junior staff, who probably did the lions share of the work and wholly deserve it, but your point isn’t a relevant comparison.

That WOULD be TAKING something from someone. If a peer at work falsely claimed they did something that you actually did it would potentially benefit them professionally to your detriment.

If you were a designer who had trademarked a design and someone was ripping it off and selling that design themselves for less money that would be taking something from the designer. That designer would potentially be losing revenue and prospective clients and there would perhaps be an unfair transfer of benefit between competitors.

As a private individual, making no gain from designing or selling jewellery, someone copying a piece of jewellery I own takes nothing from me. I don’t even know the people on this forum - but even if it was someone in my social circle I would genuinely take pleasure and pride in thinking someone liked what I designed enough to copy it.

 

[Ionysis]

Your comments arent relevant at all to what @yssie is taking about (in my view).

She isnt upset that someone else is "taking" something from her. The entire thread is about whether artists/owners of one of a kind pieces have "rights" to those pieces (even if they cant enforce copyright rules).

And as someone who works with children on the spectrum, the fact that you are using her challenges to insult another PSer is, frankly, appalling.

Perhaps you can explain how what I said was an insult? I was drawing comparisons as they struck me given the conversations I was having with my daughter. I thought it was an interesting seague on the topic given the concepts in this thread of ownership / protectionism vs generosity / libertarianism.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Having just passed our 25th year anniversary...I have a pretty deep perspective.
I can say that there were times when it was tough to survive in the jewelry business. Those times when it wasn't tough? They were incredibly tough- or worse.
There have been so many times compromise was needed....except for one crucial area- and that's being honest with clients and vendors.
I agree it's less than honest ( IMO) to purposely copy and market a design that the originator would like protected.
Totally different story if a client asks their favorite jeweler to make them a piece to enjoy personally.
Given how hard it is to survive, in this biz... isn't it a bit much to expect vendors to turn down a job?