shape
carat
color
clarity

Americans, how do you feel about America?

Americans, how do you feel about your country?

  • 1 Worst country in the world

    Votes: 5 6.4%
  • 2

    Votes: 3 3.8%
  • 3

    Votes: 1 1.3%
  • 4

    Votes: 2 2.6%
  • 5

    Votes: 10 12.8%
  • 6

    Votes: 5 6.4%
  • 7

    Votes: 15 19.2%
  • 8

    Votes: 3 3.8%
  • 9

    Votes: 7 9.0%
  • 10 Best country in the world

    Votes: 27 34.6%

  • Total voters
    78
  • Poll closed .

Maria D

Brilliant_Rock
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redwood66|1405007215|3710502 said:
mayerling|1405004946|3710477 said:
Rhea|1404983517|3710325 said:
nkarma|1404979207|3710316 said:
JanesJewels|1404967350|3710272 said:
mayerling|1404962784|3710236 said:
DF, immigration is not a good way to judge how great a country is. Look at the kind of immigration the US gets (in masses, not individual immigration). People from clearly less well-to-do countries want to move here, en masse. Yes, you might get the odd Swede, the odd Finn, the odd Brit, but you certainly won't get them en masse.

But isn't it quite difficult for people from those countries - Sweden, Finland, Britain - to legally move here? Move permanently, I mean, not doing a year's work here with their company. I think the only two ways are to marry or to have a job that can't be done by an American? And I think - don't quote me on this - but I think I read somewhere that Britain is excluded from the green card lottery. So maybe other European countries are excluded too. I think it's very hard for Europeans to come here permanently without a special skill or marrying a US citizen. The way some of the study abroad students were talking at college, they'd gladly exchange high taxes, crowded conditions and unreliable weather for the choices in lifestyle that the US offers, (City? Prairie? Mountains?) and the generally lower taxes (depending on state).

Just saying that the difficulties of moving here might explain the lack of European mass immigration. :)

ETA: Wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if free immigration was allowed between America and Europe for, say, a year? I wonder how many Europeans would come here. I mean, the weather's not so good in Scandinavia! And I wonder how many Americans would pack up and go to Europe.

The weather I think is really the least of people's worries in where they want to live. I think quality of life in terms of healthcare, public transport, education, poverty, violence, income, etc... are going to rank well above weather. Actually Scandanavia has lovely weather most of the year even more so than the northern & NE US, imo. People from Scandanavian countries have been consecutively ranked the happiest in the world even though they pay the highest tax rates. So I wouldn't use them as an example of European countries that wish they could immigrate.

Agreed! I think the initial draw would be there but then reality would kick in. It seems great for a 2 wk holiday in the Florida sun, but the same friend who wants the Florida sun and large American style property also is self-employed and wants 3 - 4 kids. On balance, I think the reality of health care, tax breaks for the self-employed, family leave and benefits including for men, and holiday time (6 weeks versus 2 weeks) would mean that a permanent move to the US wouldn't be that appealing for a significant percentage of Europeans.


:appl:

The bolded has a price that I am not willing to pay so someone else can sit on their a$$. I was back to work in the prison 8 weeks after a c-section with my twins. Why should someone else pay for me to be at home?

That's interesting, but what has it got to do with the topic at hand? Rhea was offering her opinion on why she doubted citizens living in countries with policies and institutions that supported family values would NOT want to live in the U.S. Your remark would make more sense in a "Non-Europeans, How Do You Feel About Europe" thread.
 

Dancing Fire

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Karl_K|1404978554|3710315 said:
Rhea|1404976702|3710308 said:
Britain is having immigration problems and the news regularly reports them in other European countries too. We get just as much racism with ours too! I have people say straight to my face that Britain should stop immigrants. I kindly point out that I am an immigrant to which the usual reply is, "not immigrants like you". I'm white. I need to leave now. I have to get ready to go to the job that I stole from a Brit, but I got away with it because of my skin colour! ;))


I am all for fair legal immigration my wifey4evr is a legal immigrant.
I believe that the strength of the USA depends on a steady flow of immigrants integrating into society.
What I am strongly against is illegal immigration or immigration that favors one group over another.
Rewarding someone for doing something illegal is never right. Letting someone in based on their color or where they are from is also wrong. Letting corporations bend and break the rules and sometimes even let them rewrite them for h1b and migrant worker visas is also very wrong.

For every illegal immigrant there is one less place for a legal immigrant who does it right and seeks out the American dream. That is very wrong.
I agree 101% with Stormy ... :appl: why are the U.S. allowing illegals to come in through the back door while legal immigrants must wait at least one yr? ..If they aren't deported I'll be .. :angryfire:
 

Laila619

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As an American, I think there are so many problems and issues here. I would love to move to Canada, but that just isn't a realistic option.
 

liaerfbv

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redwood66|1404936580|3709946 said:
We have too many generations of people with no personal responsibility so none of them know how to succeed. This becomes a crutch and an excuse.

I've seen you say some variation of this in several threads now, and it makes me really sad you have such a negative view of the people living in the US. Are we entitled? YES. Entitled is not necessarily the "evil" you keep preaching it to be and it doesn't mean lazy. If you think back to the time when sewage ran in the streets and the roads were dirt and fires were put out by community volunteers -- yet now, for a few examples, you likely feel entitled to public plumbing (government subsidized), working roads to drive to work on (government infrastructure), or calling 911 when your home is on fire (government funded again). I'm not trying to say that we as a society should not take personal responsibility for ourselves. I was raised to work hard, earn money to pay my own way, not rely on my parents for hand outs, etc. But did I take out a government subsidized loan to pay for my college education? Sure did. I felt entitled to borrow money from the government to further my education since I plan to provide many tax dollars off my future earnings.

I'm thankful that I live in a country where I am "entitled" to basic quality of life services that are NOT available in much of the world.

Overall though, I would not characterize the US citizens as lazy or unwilling to take personal responsibility. You have to remember that not every person shares your definition of "personal responsibility" -- for me, I want to go to work, earn a living to support my family, and call the police when I think someone is breaking into my house. For someone else, they might want to defend their own home. Does that mean that I take less personal responsibility for myself, or does it mean that I'm availing myself of the protection the government has offered me as a citizen? Does that mean I'm using the government as a crutch? I know this is an extreme example and you're likely talking about people on welfare and other government programs, but I think the example still stands.

I hope you realize how lucky we are to be living in a developed country where things like entitlement and personal responsibility are even issues we discuss.
 

packrat

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mayerling|1404968229|3710274 said:
JanesJewels|1404967350|3710272 said:
mayerling|1404962784|3710236 said:
Packrat, how far back did the Swedes you're talking about move? Somehow I don't think it was in recent years.


It was back in the days of yore when the Odd Swedes came. (sorry that really is funny if you knew my family at all) We still have wheels from the covered wagons.
 

Dancing Fire

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Rhea|1404983181|3710324 said:
Karl_K|1404978554|3710315 said:
Rhea|1404976702|3710308 said:
Britain is having immigration problems and the news regularly reports them in other European countries too. We get just as much racism with ours too! I have people say straight to my face that Britain should stop immigrants. I kindly point out that I am an immigrant to which the usual reply is, "not immigrants like you". I'm white. I need to leave now. I have to get ready to go to the job that I stole from a Brit, but I got away with it because of my skin colour! ;))

When people are let in just because of where they are from or their skin color that leads to no end of problems. Much like the ones Europe is facing and many places in the US.
All different types of people done in a fair manner to all need to be let in to make it work.

I am all for fair legal immigration my wifey4evr is a legal immigrant.
I believe that the strength of the USA depends on a steady flow of immigrants integrating into society.
What I am strongly against is illegal immigration or immigration that favors one group over another.
Rewarding someone for doing something illegal is never right. Letting someone in based on their color or where they are from is also wrong. Letting corporations bend and break the rules and sometimes even let them rewrite them for h1b and migrant worker visas is also very wrong.

For every illegal immigrant there is one less place for a legal immigrant who does it right and seeks out the American dream. That is very wrong.

There are things that I wish that US policy would stop, consider, and potentially reverse their opinions on. I wonder if illegal immigration would drop at all if the US didn't give citizenship to any one born inside it's borders? I don't have the answer, that truly is a question, and a question for policy makers at that. But the US seems to loathe a change of policy and heart. It's as though it indicates weakness rather than a reconsideration based on current facts and goals as a country. I can think of another example but won't touch that on this thread!
A definite yes! IMO, We shouldn't allow every child who is born here to become a instant U.S. citizen unless one of the parent is a U.S. citizen.This will stop the pregnant mothers for sneaking across the borders to have her baby.
 

Dancing Fire

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redwood66|1405007119|3710501 said:
Rhea|1404976702|3710308 said:
Karl_K|1404971834|3710289 said:
I love my country but sometimes wonder if I fit in my own country anymore.

President is a joke on the international scene.

I don't Americans care what outsiders think. At least that's what my very American father tells me when we discuss this. Your president is well liked in Europe. ;))

Personally I do not care what outsiders think. The fact that our current President is well liked in Europe and he wants us to be more like Europe scares the crap out of me. I do not want to be like Europe with all the free stuff. That bill comes due eventually and free stuff leads to entitlement mentality. We already have a big enough problem with that.
Redwood you should run for President in 2016!.. :clap:
 

AGBF

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redwood66|1405007215|3710502 said:
The bolded has a price that I am not willing to pay so someone else can sit on their a$$. I was back to work in the prison 8 weeks after a c-section with my twins. Why should someone else pay for me to be at home?

Why should taxpayers pay for anything? Because it it is the public interest. It is we, the people, who must decide where wish to put our tax dollars, of course. Unfortunately, many people do not have a clue where their tax dollars are actually going. They think they are supporting welfare mothers when actually they are supporting billionaires. The very wealthy could not remain wealthy if all the laws were not made to allow them to retain their position. The Supreme Court is is nicely set up to insure that pro-business decisions will keep corporations on top of the helpless "little people" (thanks, Leona Helmsley) for decades to come. Look at how hard missy has to fight the insurance companies to get one more day in a hospital. Why are insurance companies running medical facilities instead of physicians? Why, instead of a doctor's office with two doctors and a nurse in the examining rooms and one secretary out front (as in my childhood) do we now see one doctor in back and four secretaries shuffling insurance forms in front? Because the insurance companies run the world. Don't blame Obama or socialism for health care problems. Blame the insurance companies who insist on making huge money off you.

AGBF
:read:
 

partgypsy

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I love my country, but I definitely do not like how politically divisive this country is. In my father's generation, regardless if you had R or D on your voter card, you could talk reasonably and civilly to another person, even if you disagreed on the topic. Maybe that also had to do with the facts that moderate Republicans during that time were closer to Democrats in how they voted (politicians could actually talk to each other and makes compromises and come to some decisions, instead of kicking the ball to the next elected group of people). The hatred and lack of respect for anyone considered "other" in the US saddens me. I would class myself as a fiscal conservative, socially progressive.

I guess I don't "get" people who say they love their country, but then rip on all the various categories of fellow citizens they despise, as lazy, entitled, greedy, etc.
If you don't love the people of your country, how can you say you love your country? Are we all in this together or not?

I also do not like that this country is inching towards a have and have nots situation, and the dynamic is to blame game groups of people, rather than question a system that is pitting people against each other.

There are alot of good things about the US, the national park and forest system, that we provide for our veterans' healthcare, our entrepenuership. Now that the economy is changing (wages are stagnant) many people are learning how to return to maybe more our earlier American roots and be more self-sufficient by taking care of things themselves, buying locally, community efforts, and trying to have a smaller footprint. This shows that Americans are adaptable (when we take time off hating on each other).
 

Dancing Fire

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[quote="liaerfbv|1405011533|

Overall though, I would not characterize the US citizens as lazy or unwilling to take personal responsibility. You have to remember that not every person shares your definition of "personal responsibility" -- for me, I want to go to work, earn a living to support my family, and call the police when I think someone is breaking into my house. For someone else, they might want to defend their own home. Does that mean that I take less personal responsibility for myself, or does it mean that I'm availing myself of the protection the government has offered me as a citizen? Does that mean I'm using the government as a crutch? I know this is an extreme example and you're likely talking about people on welfare and other government programs, but I think the example still stands.

[/quote]


Yeah, like why Mr. and Mrs Entitlement across the street can afford to have 4 kids and my wife and I can only afford to have 2 kids?

I say to my wife ....you and Mr. and Mrs Entitlement across the street are government employees the only difference is ...if you don't go to work you won't receive a pay check each month.
 

Rhea

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redwood66|1405007119|3710501 said:
Rhea|1404976702|3710308 said:
Karl_K|1404971834|3710289 said:
I love my country but sometimes wonder if I fit in my own country anymore.

President is a joke on the international scene.

I don't Americans care what outsiders think. At least that's what my very American father tells me when we discuss this. Your president is well liked in Europe. ;))

Personally I do not care what outsiders think. The fact that our current President is well liked in Europe and he wants us to be more like Europe scares the crap out of me. I do not want to be like Europe with all the free stuff. That bill comes due eventually and free stuff leads to entitlement mentality. We already have a big enough problem with that.

I don't know how my winky got misplaced! It was not meant to be in the above quote at all and takes it out of context. I'm quoting this post at it's the first post where the winky is in the wrong place.
 

Rhea

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redwood66|1405007215|3710502 said:
mayerling|1405004946|3710477 said:
Rhea|1404983517|3710325 said:
nkarma|1404979207|3710316 said:
JanesJewels|1404967350|3710272 said:
mayerling|1404962784|3710236 said:
DF, immigration is not a good way to judge how great a country is. Look at the kind of immigration the US gets (in masses, not individual immigration). People from clearly less well-to-do countries want to move here, en masse. Yes, you might get the odd Swede, the odd Finn, the odd Brit, but you certainly won't get them en masse.

But isn't it quite difficult for people from those countries - Sweden, Finland, Britain - to legally move here? Move permanently, I mean, not doing a year's work here with their company. I think the only two ways are to marry or to have a job that can't be done by an American? And I think - don't quote me on this - but I think I read somewhere that Britain is excluded from the green card lottery. So maybe other European countries are excluded too. I think it's very hard for Europeans to come here permanently without a special skill or marrying a US citizen. The way some of the study abroad students were talking at college, they'd gladly exchange high taxes, crowded conditions and unreliable weather for the choices in lifestyle that the US offers, (City? Prairie? Mountains?) and the generally lower taxes (depending on state).

Just saying that the difficulties of moving here might explain the lack of European mass immigration. :)

ETA: Wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if free immigration was allowed between America and Europe for, say, a year? I wonder how many Europeans would come here. I mean, the weather's not so good in Scandinavia! And I wonder how many Americans would pack up and go to Europe.

The weather I think is really the least of people's worries in where they want to live. I think quality of life in terms of healthcare, public transport, education, poverty, violence, income, etc... are going to rank well above weather. Actually Scandanavia has lovely weather most of the year even more so than the northern & NE US, imo. People from Scandanavian countries have been consecutively ranked the happiest in the world even though they pay the highest tax rates. So I wouldn't use them as an example of European countries that wish they could immigrate.

Agreed! I think the initial draw would be there but then reality would kick in. It seems great for a 2 wk holiday in the Florida sun, but the same friend who wants the Florida sun and large American style property also is self-employed and wants 3 - 4 kids. On balance, I think the reality of health care, tax breaks for the self-employed, family leave and benefits including for men, and holiday time (6 weeks versus 2 weeks) would mean that a permanent move to the US wouldn't be that appealing for a significant percentage of Europeans.


:appl:

The bolded has a price that I am not willing to pay so someone else can sit on their a$$. I was back to work in the prison 8 weeks after a c-section with my twins. Why should someone else pay for me to be at home?

This is something my Americans acquaintances bring up regularly to me since my husband and I are child-free and at the moment plan to stay that way. I agree with paying for other people for several reasons. I think that children do best when they are raised by their parents who are able to breast feed and who aren't stressed out with the added expense of childcare and a stressful return to work while balancing a new child, a change of family roles, and adjusting to the responsibilities of having to be a good partner, good parent, and good worker while dealing with a child who doesn't yet sleep through the night, or more than 3 hours at a time really. How was it leaving your twins after 8 weeks? Would you really not want more paid time off to spend with them? I feel positive in contributing to the next generation even though I don't plan to partake in the benefits by having children of my own.

On balance I don't think Americans are any more productive than their European counterparts. Even with all of our breaks. But I could be wrong.
 

Dancing Fire

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AGBF|1405013830|3710616 said:
redwood66|1405007215|3710502 said:
The bolded has a price that I am not willing to pay so someone else can sit on their a$$. I was back to work in the prison 8 weeks after a c-section with my twins. Why should someone else pay for me to be at home?

Why should taxpayers pay for anything? Because it it is the public interest. It is we, the people, who must decide where wish to put our tax dollars, of course. Unfortunately, many people do not have a clue where their tax dollars are actually going. They think they are supporting welfare mothers when actually they are supporting billionaires. The very wealthy could not remain wealthy if all the laws were not made to allow them to retain their position. The Supreme Court is is nicely set up to insure that pro-business decisions will keep corporations on top of the helpless "little people" (thanks, Leona Helmsley) for decades to come. Look at how hard missy has to fight the insurance companies to get one more day in a hospital. Why are insurance companies running medical facilities instead of physicians? Why, instead of a doctor's office with two doctors and a nurse in the examining rooms and one secretary out front (as in my childhood) do we now see one doctor in back and four secretaries shuffling insurance forms in front? Because the insurance companies run the world. Don't blame Obama or socialism for health care problems. Blame the insurance companies who insist on making huge money off you.

AGBF
:read:
Deb, we can go rob every billionaires in this country and still wouldn't put a dent in our $17 trillion deficit problem if we don't stop this "entitlement mentality" . I am all for paying higher taxes if our government spent my taxed dollars wisely.
 

ForteKitty

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Dancing Fire|1405011986|3710576 said:
A definite yes! IMO, We shouldn't allow every child who is born here to become a instant U.S. citizen unless one of the parent is a U.S. citizen.This will stop the pregnant mothers for sneaking across the borders to have her baby.

Stop acting like illegal immigration is a "brown people" problem. Plenty of Asians are doing it too. People aren't just sneaking across the boarders. People are flying across the Pacific to have their babies here. It is a huge problem in LA County, enough that the Board of Supervisors are actually cracking down on these "birth housing facilities". Women from China who can pay for this service are flying in and staying at illegally modified homes, with a housekeeper and private doctors to monitor their pregnancy. Then when the time comes, they give birth. Ta-da! Instant US citizenship. I, for one, am terribly ashamed to be ethnically associated with this drop ship birthing brigade.
 

momhappy

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All I have to do is turn on the nightly (national) news to remind myself of how lucky I am to be in America. Sure, we have our fair-share of problems, but for the most part, I feel blessed to be here.
 

Dancing Fire

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Karl_K|1404978554|3710315 said:
Rhea|1404976702|3710308 said:
What I am strongly against is illegal immigration or immigration that favors one group over another.
Rewarding someone for doing something illegal is never right. Letting someone in based on their color or where they are from is also wrong. Letting corporations bend and break the rules and sometimes even let them rewrite them for h1b and migrant worker visas is also very wrong.

For every illegal immigrant there is one less place for a legal immigrant who does it right and seeks out the American dream. That is very wrong.
Here's how I feel about the illegal immigrants whom are already here for many years. Our government should allow them to stay in the U.S. and issue them a green card if he/she have not committed any crime, then after 5 yrs they can apply for citizenship like all other legal immigrants in this country.
 

kenny

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ForteKitty|1405016914|3710673 said:
Dancing Fire|1405011986|3710576 said:
A definite yes! IMO, We shouldn't allow every child who is born here to become a instant U.S. citizen unless one of the parent is a U.S. citizen.This will stop the pregnant mothers for sneaking across the borders to have her baby.

Stop acting like illegal immigration is a "brown people" problem. Plenty of Asians are doing it too. People aren't just sneaking across the boarders. People are flying across the Pacific to have their babies here. It is a huge problem in LA County, enough that the Board of Supervisors are actually cracking down on these "birth housing facilities". Women from China who can pay for this service are flying in and staying at illegally modified homes, with a housekeeper and private doctors to monitor their pregnancy. Then when the time comes, they give birth. Ta-da! Instant US citizenship. I, for one, am terribly ashamed to be ethnically associated with this drop ship birthing brigade.


Ethnically associated?
What an odd thought.

So I guess I'm 'ethnically-associated' and 'genderly-associated' with Hitler so I should be ashamed of being a white male?

But then I'm 'genderly-associated' with Ghandi, so I should be proud of being a male?

I think not.

How bout, what an individual does is not a reflection on any group to which they belong? ... and people do think it is are knobheads.
 

Dancing Fire

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ForteKitty|1405016914|3710673 said:
Dancing Fire|1405011986|3710576 said:
A definite yes! IMO, We shouldn't allow every child who is born here to become a instant U.S. citizen unless one of the parent is a U.S. citizen.This will stop the pregnant mothers for sneaking across the borders to have her baby.

Stop acting like illegal immigration is a "brown people" problem. Plenty of Asians are doing it too. People aren't just sneaking across the boarders. People are flying across the Pacific to have their babies here. It is a huge problem in LA County, enough that the Board of Supervisors are actually cracking down on these "birth housing facilities". Women from China who can pay for this service are flying in and staying at illegally modified homes, with a housekeeper and private doctors to monitor their pregnancy. Then when the time comes, they give birth. Ta-da! Instant US citizenship. I, for one, am terribly ashamed to be ethnically associated with this drop ship birthing brigade.
I'd agree! they should crack down on these birth housing facilities .. :appl: The rule should apply to every nationality :!:
 

redwood66

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Rhea|1405015842|3710657 said:
redwood66|1405007215|3710502 said:
mayerling|1405004946|3710477 said:
Rhea|1404983517|3710325 said:
nkarma|1404979207|3710316 said:
JanesJewels|1404967350|3710272 said:
mayerling|1404962784|3710236 said:
DF, immigration is not a good way to judge how great a country is. Look at the kind of immigration the US gets (in masses, not individual immigration). People from clearly less well-to-do countries want to move here, en masse. Yes, you might get the odd Swede, the odd Finn, the odd Brit, but you certainly won't get them en masse.

But isn't it quite difficult for people from those countries - Sweden, Finland, Britain - to legally move here? Move permanently, I mean, not doing a year's work here with their company. I think the only two ways are to marry or to have a job that can't be done by an American? And I think - don't quote me on this - but I think I read somewhere that Britain is excluded from the green card lottery. So maybe other European countries are excluded too. I think it's very hard for Europeans to come here permanently without a special skill or marrying a US citizen. The way some of the study abroad students were talking at college, they'd gladly exchange high taxes, crowded conditions and unreliable weather for the choices in lifestyle that the US offers, (City? Prairie? Mountains?) and the generally lower taxes (depending on state).

Just saying that the difficulties of moving here might explain the lack of European mass immigration. :)

ETA: Wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if free immigration was allowed between America and Europe for, say, a year? I wonder how many Europeans would come here. I mean, the weather's not so good in Scandinavia! And I wonder how many Americans would pack up and go to Europe.

The weather I think is really the least of people's worries in where they want to live. I think quality of life in terms of healthcare, public transport, education, poverty, violence, income, etc... are going to rank well above weather. Actually Scandanavia has lovely weather most of the year even more so than the northern & NE US, imo. People from Scandanavian countries have been consecutively ranked the happiest in the world even though they pay the highest tax rates. So I wouldn't use them as an example of European countries that wish they could immigrate.

Agreed! I think the initial draw would be there but then reality would kick in. It seems great for a 2 wk holiday in the Florida sun, but the same friend who wants the Florida sun and large American style property also is self-employed and wants 3 - 4 kids. On balance, I think the reality of health care, tax breaks for the self-employed, family leave and benefits including for men, and holiday time (6 weeks versus 2 weeks) would mean that a permanent move to the US wouldn't be that appealing for a significant percentage of Europeans.


:appl:

The bolded has a price that I am not willing to pay so someone else can sit on their a$$. I was back to work in the prison 8 weeks after a c-section with my twins. Why should someone else pay for me to be at home?

This is something my Americans acquaintances bring up regularly to me since my husband and I are child-free and at the moment plan to stay that way. I agree with paying for other people for several reasons. I think that children do best when they are raised by their parents who are able to breast feed and who aren't stressed out with the added expense of childcare and a stressful return to work while balancing a new child, a change of family roles, and adjusting to the responsibilities of having to be a good partner, good parent, and good worker while dealing with a child who doesn't yet sleep through the night, or more than 3 hours at a time really. How was it leaving your twins after 8 weeks? Would you really not want more paid time off to spend with them? I feel positive in contributing to the next generation even though I don't plan to partake in the benefits by having children of my own.

On balance I don't think Americans are any more productive than their European counterparts. Even with all of our breaks. But I could be wrong.

No I would not want more time off at the cost of taxpayers. My DH stayed home for 18 months with them when we came home from the hospital because he had gotten laid off and we decided it was better to have one of us there than pay for daycare for 2 babies. I have collected unemployment 1 time in my entire life and that was for the shortest time possible. Hell now you can get 99 weeks. Why would anyone want to get a job?

I guess there are not many conservatives on PS, at least not many that post. I am glad to be here to voice another opinion. Thanks to DF I am not totally alone. :lol:

Even though I have these gripes with America - it is still the best place in the world to me.
 

redwood66

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
7,329
Maria D|1405007675|3710508 said:
redwood66|1405007215|3710502 said:
mayerling|1405004946|3710477 said:
Rhea|1404983517|3710325 said:
nkarma|1404979207|3710316 said:
JanesJewels|1404967350|3710272 said:
mayerling|1404962784|3710236 said:
DF, immigration is not a good way to judge how great a country is. Look at the kind of immigration the US gets (in masses, not individual immigration). People from clearly less well-to-do countries want to move here, en masse. Yes, you might get the odd Swede, the odd Finn, the odd Brit, but you certainly won't get them en masse.

But isn't it quite difficult for people from those countries - Sweden, Finland, Britain - to legally move here? Move permanently, I mean, not doing a year's work here with their company. I think the only two ways are to marry or to have a job that can't be done by an American? And I think - don't quote me on this - but I think I read somewhere that Britain is excluded from the green card lottery. So maybe other European countries are excluded too. I think it's very hard for Europeans to come here permanently without a special skill or marrying a US citizen. The way some of the study abroad students were talking at college, they'd gladly exchange high taxes, crowded conditions and unreliable weather for the choices in lifestyle that the US offers, (City? Prairie? Mountains?) and the generally lower taxes (depending on state).

Just saying that the difficulties of moving here might explain the lack of European mass immigration. :)

ETA: Wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if free immigration was allowed between America and Europe for, say, a year? I wonder how many Europeans would come here. I mean, the weather's not so good in Scandinavia! And I wonder how many Americans would pack up and go to Europe.

The weather I think is really the least of people's worries in where they want to live. I think quality of life in terms of healthcare, public transport, education, poverty, violence, income, etc... are going to rank well above weather. Actually Scandanavia has lovely weather most of the year even more so than the northern & NE US, imo. People from Scandanavian countries have been consecutively ranked the happiest in the world even though they pay the highest tax rates. So I wouldn't use them as an example of European countries that wish they could immigrate.

Agreed! I think the initial draw would be there but then reality would kick in. It seems great for a 2 wk holiday in the Florida sun, but the same friend who wants the Florida sun and large American style property also is self-employed and wants 3 - 4 kids. On balance, I think the reality of health care, tax breaks for the self-employed, family leave and benefits including for men, and holiday time (6 weeks versus 2 weeks) would mean that a permanent move to the US wouldn't be that appealing for a significant percentage of Europeans.


:appl:

The bolded has a price that I am not willing to pay so someone else can sit on their a$$. I was back to work in the prison 8 weeks after a c-section with my twins. Why should someone else pay for me to be at home?

That's interesting, but what has it got to do with the topic at hand? Rhea was offering her opinion on why she doubted citizens living in countries with policies and institutions that supported family values would NOT want to live in the U.S. Your remark would make more sense in a "Non-Europeans, How Do You Feel About Europe" thread.

My point is that those benies she is talking about in Europe have a price that I am not willing to pay. We are discussing how Americans feel about America and my opinion is you can keep those costs and people in Europe. We don't want to be like Europe.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
22,143
Dancing Fire|1405016542|3710665 said:
AGBF|1405013830|3710616 said:
redwood66|1405007215|3710502 said:
The bolded has a price that I am not willing to pay so someone else can sit on their a$$. I was back to work in the prison 8 weeks after a c-section with my twins. Why should someone else pay for me to be at home?

Why should taxpayers pay for anything? Because it it is the public interest. It is we, the people, who must decide where wish to put our tax dollars, of course. Unfortunately, many people do not have a clue where their tax dollars are actually going. They think they are supporting welfare mothers when actually they are supporting billionaires. The very wealthy could not remain wealthy if all the laws were not made to allow them to retain their position. The Supreme Court is is nicely set up to insure that pro-business decisions will keep corporations on top of the helpless "little people" (thanks, Leona Helmsley) for decades to come. Look at how hard missy has to fight the insurance companies to get one more day in a hospital. Why are insurance companies running medical facilities instead of physicians? Why, instead of a doctor's office with two doctors and a nurse in the examining rooms and one secretary out front (as in my childhood) do we now see one doctor in back and four secretaries shuffling insurance forms in front? Because the insurance companies run the world. Don't blame Obama or socialism for health care problems. Blame the insurance companies who insist on making huge money off you.

Deb, we can go rob every billionaires in this country and still wouldn't put a dent in our $17 trillion deficit problem if we don't stop this "entitlement mentality" . I am all for paying higher taxes if our government spent my taxed dollars wisely.


There's a problem with your logic Dancing Fire: you are making the unproven assumption that the alleged "$17 trillion deficit problem" is the result of an "entitlement mentality". How on earth did you reach that conclusion. Would you, "show me your work" as my school teachers used to say?

I mean, please show me, using pencil in the margins, how you added up that 17 trillion and how it all came from "an entitlement mentality". I guess I would also need a definition of an "entitlement mentality". Are we talking about defense contractors who feel entitled to enormous payoffs from the Pentagon for anything they dream up? Billionaires who feel entitled to have corporations treated as people under the law and sheltered from lawsuits that ask for high amounts of compensation when their products fail and kill and maim the people who bought and used them? I mean, who are The Entitled?

Deb
:read:
 

redwood66

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Messages
7,329
liaerfbv|1405011533|3710565 said:
redwood66|1404936580|3709946 said:
We have too many generations of people with no personal responsibility so none of them know how to succeed. This becomes a crutch and an excuse.

I've seen you say some variation of this in several threads now, and it makes me really sad you have such a negative view of the people living in the US. Are we entitled? YES. Entitled is not necessarily the "evil" you keep preaching it to be and it doesn't mean lazy. If you think back to the time when sewage ran in the streets and the roads were dirt and fires were put out by community volunteers -- yet now, for a few examples, you likely feel entitled to public plumbing (government subsidized), working roads to drive to work on (government infrastructure), or calling 911 when your home is on fire (government funded again). I'm not trying to say that we as a society should not take personal responsibility for ourselves. I was raised to work hard, earn money to pay my own way, not rely on my parents for hand outs, etc. But did I take out a government subsidized loan to pay for my college education? Sure did. I felt entitled to borrow money from the government to further my education since I plan to provide many tax dollars off my future earnings.

I'm thankful that I live in a country where I am "entitled" to basic quality of life services that are NOT available in much of the world.

Overall though, I would not characterize the US citizens as lazy or unwilling to take personal responsibility. You have to remember that not every person shares your definition of "personal responsibility" -- for me, I want to go to work, earn a living to support my family, and call the police when I think someone is breaking into my house. For someone else, they might want to defend their own home. Does that mean that I take less personal responsibility for myself, or does it mean that I'm availing myself of the protection the government has offered me as a citizen? Does that mean I'm using the government as a crutch? I know this is an extreme example and you're likely talking about people on welfare and other government programs, but I think the example still stands.

I hope you realize how lucky we are to be living in a developed country where things like entitlement and personal responsibility are even issues we discuss.

I don't have a negative view of all people living in the US but I damn sure have a negative view of people perfectly capabable of working and choose not to because of this excuse or that excuse, or no reason at all. Maybe I am jaded by the thousands of "society's finest" that I spent so many years around. Still think America is the best country to live in bar none.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
22,143
redwood66|1405020696|3710728 said:
No I would not want more time off at the cost of taxpayers. My DH stayed home for 18 months with them when we came home from the hospital because he had gotten laid off and we decided it was better to have one of us there than pay for daycare for 2 babies. I have collected unemployment 1 time in my entire life and that was for the shortest time possible. Hell now you can get 99 weeks. Why would anyone want to get a job?

I am confused. You said that you "collected unemployment 1 time in my entire life and that was for the shortest time possible". Then you went on to say that "Hell now you can get 99 weeks. Why would anyone get a job?" That appears to be a total contradiction. If you chose the shortest amount of time necessary to collect unemployment when more time was on unemployment was available to you, why should someone not choose the shortest amount of time necessary to collect it when it is available to him now?

Deb/AGBF
:read:
 

liaerfbv

Brilliant_Rock
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Messages
1,348
redwood66|1405020696|3710728 said:
No I would not want more time off at the cost of taxpayers. My DH stayed home for 18 months with them when we came home from the hospital because he had gotten laid off and we decided it was better to have one of us there than pay for daycare for 2 babies. I have collected unemployment 1 time in my entire life and that was for the shortest time possible. Hell now you can get 99 weeks. Why would anyone want to get a job?

I guess there are not many conservatives on PS, at least not many that post. I am glad to be here to voice another opinion. Thanks to DF I am not totally alone. :lol:

Even though I have these gripes with America - it is still the best place in the world to me.

Receiving unemployment benefits is NOT the same amount of money received from an earned wage. It is a percentage of the salary you previously earned. In most cases total unemployment benefits are less than $1,000 a month. Do you know anyone living the high life on 1k a month????? I don't.

I personally had 3 friends laid off from work, all with college degrees and one with a masters. All were out of work for close to 2 years. Actively applying to every job under the sun - fast food, full time, part time, everything. Unable to find work. If they were not able to receive govt benefits I know at least one of them would not have been able to keep her apartment AND feed her kid. When the global market crashes and jobs become scarce, what is the government supposed to do? Sure there are people that take advantage of the system- that happens everywhere. I'm talking about the hard working Americans WHO WANT TO WORK AND CANNOT. Should the govt turn their back on those people and allow mass quantities of hunger and homelessness? I'm seriously asking you.
 

redwood66

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7,329
I chose the shortest time possible by getting another job within 2 months.

I feel bad for your friends and don't wish that on anyone. If someone truly needs help then they need it. But if there are no jobs where you are then you might have to move right? If you cannot get your dream job then you might have to take something else. I can understand a fast food place not hiring someone with an MBA to flip burgers. But I have seen the high percentage of people who take advantage of a system that allows it to happen.

Guess I am not as tolerant as all of you.
 

packrat

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Joined
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Messages
10,614
I think she's meaning she was out banging on doors to get a job so she didn't have to stay on unemployment the full term, versus those that do everything possible to *stay* on it the entire time. I had it for 6 months once, which ended up working out fine b/c London was a few months old, and my boss moved, closing down his office. I had a job waiting for me, but they could only give me a few hours here and there for a while, so I had unemployment in the meantime.

At the packing house here in town, it's not unusual to take a voluntary lay off to stay home and collect unemployment. Mostly it's the not the ones who *want* to work, that take it. It's the ones that will have welfare benefits cut if they don't.

ETA oops nevermind, took too long to post.
 

Maria D

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
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Messages
1,948
redwood66|1405021182|3710737 said:
Maria D|1405007675|3710508 said:
redwood66|1405007215|3710502 said:
mayerling|1405004946|3710477 said:
Rhea|1404983517|3710325 said:
nkarma|1404979207|3710316 said:
JanesJewels|1404967350|3710272 said:
mayerling|1404962784|3710236 said:
DF, immigration is not a good way to judge how great a country is. Look at the kind of immigration the US gets (in masses, not individual immigration). People from clearly less well-to-do countries want to move here, en masse. Yes, you might get the odd Swede, the odd Finn, the odd Brit, but you certainly won't get them en masse.

But isn't it quite difficult for people from those countries - Sweden, Finland, Britain - to legally move here? Move permanently, I mean, not doing a year's work here with their company. I think the only two ways are to marry or to have a job that can't be done by an American? And I think - don't quote me on this - but I think I read somewhere that Britain is excluded from the green card lottery. So maybe other European countries are excluded too. I think it's very hard for Europeans to come here permanently without a special skill or marrying a US citizen. The way some of the study abroad students were talking at college, they'd gladly exchange high taxes, crowded conditions and unreliable weather for the choices in lifestyle that the US offers, (City? Prairie? Mountains?) and the generally lower taxes (depending on state).

Just saying that the difficulties of moving here might explain the lack of European mass immigration. :)

ETA: Wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if free immigration was allowed between America and Europe for, say, a year? I wonder how many Europeans would come here. I mean, the weather's not so good in Scandinavia! And I wonder how many Americans would pack up and go to Europe.

The weather I think is really the least of people's worries in where they want to live. I think quality of life in terms of healthcare, public transport, education, poverty, violence, income, etc... are going to rank well above weather. Actually Scandanavia has lovely weather most of the year even more so than the northern & NE US, imo. People from Scandanavian countries have been consecutively ranked the happiest in the world even though they pay the highest tax rates. So I wouldn't use them as an example of European countries that wish they could immigrate.

Agreed! I think the initial draw would be there but then reality would kick in. It seems great for a 2 wk holiday in the Florida sun, but the same friend who wants the Florida sun and large American style property also is self-employed and wants 3 - 4 kids. On balance, I think the reality of health care, tax breaks for the self-employed, family leave and benefits including for men, and holiday time (6 weeks versus 2 weeks) would mean that a permanent move to the US wouldn't be that appealing for a significant percentage of Europeans.


:appl:

The bolded has a price that I am not willing to pay so someone else can sit on their a$$. I was back to work in the prison 8 weeks after a c-section with my twins. Why should someone else pay for me to be at home?

That's interesting, but what has it got to do with the topic at hand? Rhea was offering her opinion on why she doubted citizens living in countries with policies and institutions that supported family values would NOT want to live in the U.S. Your remark would make more sense in a "Non-Europeans, How Do You Feel About Europe" thread.

My point is that those benies she is talking about in Europe have a price that I am not willing to pay. We are discussing how Americans feel about America and my opinion is you can keep those costs and people in Europe. We don't want to be like Europe.

No, the discussion could be summarized as something like this:

"You can't say U.S. is the best country based on immigration because most of the immigrants come from countries where quality of living isn't great. You don't see many Scandinavians/Europeans moving here, do you?'

"They don't come because it's difficult to legally. Maybe they would if it were easier to do so. After all, the weather is better."

"Never mind the weather, that's good for a couple week vacation, but then they'd miss the pro-family values benefits."

See the point? It's a discussion on whether or not immigration patterns tell us much about the rating of the U.S. as best/worst country relative to other countries in the world. It had nothing at all to do with whether or not you want to live in Europe and who you want to keep out. And who is the "we" you refer to in "we don't want to be like Europe?" As an American citizen I personally would love for this country to promote the offering of benefits that value family!
 

Maria D

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
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Messages
1,948
AGBF|1405021233|3710739 said:
Dancing Fire|1405016542|3710665 said:
AGBF|1405013830|3710616 said:
redwood66|1405007215|3710502 said:
The bolded has a price that I am not willing to pay so someone else can sit on their a$$. I was back to work in the prison 8 weeks after a c-section with my twins. Why should someone else pay for me to be at home?

Why should taxpayers pay for anything? Because it it is the public interest. It is we, the people, who must decide where wish to put our tax dollars, of course. Unfortunately, many people do not have a clue where their tax dollars are actually going. They think they are supporting welfare mothers when actually they are supporting billionaires. The very wealthy could not remain wealthy if all the laws were not made to allow them to retain their position. The Supreme Court is is nicely set up to insure that pro-business decisions will keep corporations on top of the helpless "little people" (thanks, Leona Helmsley) for decades to come. Look at how hard missy has to fight the insurance companies to get one more day in a hospital. Why are insurance companies running medical facilities instead of physicians? Why, instead of a doctor's office with two doctors and a nurse in the examining rooms and one secretary out front (as in my childhood) do we now see one doctor in back and four secretaries shuffling insurance forms in front? Because the insurance companies run the world. Don't blame Obama or socialism for health care problems. Blame the insurance companies who insist on making huge money off you.

Deb, we can go rob every billionaires in this country and still wouldn't put a dent in our $17 trillion deficit problem if we don't stop this "entitlement mentality" . I am all for paying higher taxes if our government spent my taxed dollars wisely.


There's a problem with your logic Dancing Fire: you are making the unproven assumption that the alleged "$17 trillion deficit problem" is the result of an "entitlement mentality". How on earth did you reach that conclusion. Would you, "show me your work" as my school teachers used to say?

I mean, please show me, using pencil in the margins, how you added up that 17 trillion and how it all came from "an entitlement mentality". I guess I would also need a definition of an "entitlement mentality". Are we talking about defense contractors who feel entitled to enormous payoffs from the Pentagon for anything they dream up? Billionaires who feel entitled to have corporations treated as people under the law and sheltered from lawsuits that ask for high amounts of compensation when their products fail and kill and maim the people who bought and used them? I mean, who are The Entitled?

Deb
:read:

The Entitled must be the warmongers???
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,143
Maria D|1405023195|3710776 said:
AGBF|1405021233|3710739 said:
Dancing Fire|1405016542|3710665 said:
AGBF|1405013830|3710616 said:
redwood66|1405007215|3710502 said:
The bolded has a price that I am not willing to pay so someone else can sit on their a$$. I was back to work in the prison 8 weeks after a c-section with my twins. Why should someone else pay for me to be at home?

Why should taxpayers pay for anything? Because it it is the public interest. It is we, the people, who must decide where wish to put our tax dollars, of course. Unfortunately, many people do not have a clue where their tax dollars are actually going. They think they are supporting welfare mothers when actually they are supporting billionaires. The very wealthy could not remain wealthy if all the laws were not made to allow them to retain their position. The Supreme Court is is nicely set up to insure that pro-business decisions will keep corporations on top of the helpless "little people" (thanks, Leona Helmsley) for decades to come. Look at how hard missy has to fight the insurance companies to get one more day in a hospital. Why are insurance companies running medical facilities instead of physicians? Why, instead of a doctor's office with two doctors and a nurse in the examining rooms and one secretary out front (as in my childhood) do we now see one doctor in back and four secretaries shuffling insurance forms in front? Because the insurance companies run the world. Don't blame Obama or socialism for health care problems. Blame the insurance companies who insist on making huge money off you.

Deb, we can go rob every billionaires in this country and still wouldn't put a dent in our $17 trillion deficit problem if we don't stop this "entitlement mentality" . I am all for paying higher taxes if our government spent my taxed dollars wisely.


There's a problem with your logic Dancing Fire: you are making the unproven assumption that the alleged "$17 trillion deficit problem" is the result of an "entitlement mentality". How on earth did you reach that conclusion. Would you, "show me your work" as my school teachers used to say?

I mean, please show me, using pencil in the margins, how you added up that 17 trillion and how it all came from "an entitlement mentality". I guess I would also need a definition of an "entitlement mentality". Are we talking about defense contractors who feel entitled to enormous payoffs from the Pentagon for anything they dream up? Billionaires who feel entitled to have corporations treated as people under the law and sheltered from lawsuits that ask for high amounts of compensation when their products fail and kill and maim the people who bought and used them? I mean, who are The Entitled?

The Entitled must be the warmongers???

Well, Maria, warmongers tend to be my go-to bad guys. I mean, I believe, "Blessed are the peacemakers". I was, however, waiting for a definiton of "The Entitled" from Dancing Fire, who first invoked them, before making that judgement.

Deb :wavey:
 

azstonie

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Messages
3,769
I believe this conversation is contingent upon what a person believes should come with a civilized, educated and prosperous society.

I believe that such a society should include single payer healthcare. Everyone insured.

I believe education is in the best interests of a civilized and prosperous society and as such, should continue to be funded by society INCLUDING vocational education (who is going to fix my air conditioner or my plumbing and electrical? Who will be our doctors, nurses, scientists, etc.?)

I believe that there should be safe, reliable and comprehensive public transportation.

I believe the infrastructure of society, our bridges, roads, buildings, airports, harbors, should be maintained for safe use.

I believe that government should continue to provide services which the private sector at one point had deemed unprofitable, because we needed/need them: Mail, law enforcement, etc.

I don't feel like having the foot of the 1% on my neck is doing me any good nor the vast majority of people in the US.

Because most of the people in the US read no newspapers and don't 'follow the money,' they don't realize the vast profits being reaped by the 1%. They simply have no idea. Living paycheck to paycheck has become so commonplace that most people don't see this as a problem!

*IF* people here ever DO wiseup to where the money is in this country, they will be STUNNED. Revolutions have succeeded based on less.
 
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