America is Regressing

[cmd2014]

Since I know you are interested in how people get to where they are in life and what shapes their views I am going to give you a bit more to chew on.

On this ride I was on I had two very close friends (they were sisters) that were already in this lifestyle when I met them and started my journey. They both had children under 3 with no present father and were on welfare. They wanted to party and did so with reckless abandon and no intention to better their situation or get any kind of job. The kids suffered and were essentially neglected. I met many others like them. I knew for sure that is not what I wanted for myself but it took me that long to figure it out while still going to my job every day. Their story is the one I remember when I hear what I think are excuses for remaining on welfare. Are there legitimate reasons? Of course. Does it mean that I do not have empathy for people in tough situations? Hardly, because I know tough situations and know full well how hard it is to get out but you have to start. People can do it and people can and should ask for help if they need to.

In the end I had to let them go and get away for my own sake.

Red,

I do wonder how people get where they are in life, and how they think, what they have come to believe, and why it is that they choose to do what it is they choose to do. I feel that if I can understand where someone has come from, I can understand the 'why' behind why they think, feel, and behave the way that they do. I think the 'why' is the most important question, really. Part of it is my job - I can't help people unless I understand the 'why,' otherwise I can't make the best recommendation regarding the 'what' or 'how.' The best intervention in the world won't work if the person can't or won't do it.

When it comes to lifestyle issues, I've come to learn that people do what they know (as in, what they have grown up seeing as normal to them). I suspect there were reasons why your friends were in the lifestyle that they were and why they parented the way that they did. Unless we make a conscious choice to not repeat patterns we know are harmful, we tend to live the way that we were raised to live, and parent in the way that we were parented, because this is normal to us. And I also know how painful it is to walk away from your support people, even when they are bad for you (maybe especially when they are bad for you). I'm just glad that you had something inside of yourself to recognize the need to do it and the personal resources to make it happen.

I'm with you in that I fully believe that if people recognize the need for change, have hope that it's possible, and are given whatever supports might help them achieve it, that they can do it (provided that there aren't physical, intellectual, or mental health barriers to doing so). I just think this is a bigger ask than some people might realize. Things are always easier on paper than in reality, eh?

 

[Dancing Fire]

DF, I take it from your responses that you are not actually terribly interested in even considering the possibility that some of us who have experienced some of the things that we are trying to tell you about, or who work in professions that have us in direct contact with the populations that we are talking about, have anything to offer here that might make you reconsider your position. In fact, I don't actually think that you have a position other than "I did it, so everyone else should be able to do it too." Given this, I don't think there's much point in continuing to have this conversation with you.

No need to feel sorry for us b/c my parents, my wife and I didn't chose to go down the welfare path. Now, looking back 50 yrs. Yes, we are proud!! (2 generations !!) of not depending on welfare as the way of living even though we were highly qualified. The liberals here can take our share of the welfare $$$ , food stamps and give it to those who needed it. Oh, don't forget to tell them that welfare is the way to prosperity! and must continue on to the next generation...

 

[LLJsmom]

DF, I'm not trying to argue with you, or reduce what you and your family have accomplished with your challenges. Kudos to you and yours. I am proud of my family too. I'm just putting it out there, that in reality, there are people that have gone through much. And things that are different from you and your family, but just as difficult if not more. And even though you may have never met them, they are as real as you and I are.

These are stories of a few people I know well. What if I had grown up being molested by my close relative on a daily basis since I was 5 years old? Would I be able to go to school every day and be able to concentrate and get good grades? Would I know that boys were not supposed to touch me in certain places? What if I watched my Dad beat up my Mom regularly? Would I fully understand that at some level she, consequently I, would not deserve the same treatment? How would I know that my boyfriend should not be hitting me? Maybe I did do something wrong to deserve it? What if there was no one to tell me that a good education was the way out, and all I saw in the neighborhood I lived were drug dealers and prostitution? Would I know that there is a big building somewhere else where people sit at desks and work and make money in different ways? What is an accountant? What is a lawyer? Those people on TV? That's not my reality. The only jobs I see around here are at fast food joints and corner stores. How in the world would I get there? My grade school never talks about stuff like that. I'm trying to help you see that this is the reality of some people, young children, boys, girls, teens, who grow up in a cycle of this. And some people want to help. What is the alternative? Not helping. Not providing services. Ok, what does that accomplish? Standing back and saying, "well, you should do better." That changes nothing for no one. Does not improve the situation, and I assume that change, improvement, is what everyone wants.

I'm not saying that there aren't people who can do better but won't. But there are also people who cannot because they don't know how, are so physically, emotionally, mentally scarred and hurt that they can't. Who don't have the means and resources to do so. Do these people not deserve compassion, empathy, help? These people are as human as you and me. I have met people in these situations. And I would prefer that help would be offered and some that may be more "undeserving" get helped along the way than prevent the many who do need it, NOT get it. DF, I think you are a smart guy. I think that you can intellectually understand the reality that these situations exist in real life. My question is only whether you are willing to.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I'm not saying that there aren't people who can do better but won't. But there are also people who cannot because they don't know how, are so physically, emotionally, mentally scarred and hurt that they can't. Who don't have the means and resources to do so. Do these people not deserve compassion, empathy, help? These people are as human as you and me. I have met people in these situations. And I would prefer that help would be offered and some that may be more "undeserving" get helped along the way than prevent the many who do need it, NOT get it. DF, I think you are a smart guy. I think that you can intellectually understand the reality that these situations exist in real life. My question is only whether you are willing to.

My comments aren't towards these group of peoples. My Q is.. why bring a baby into this world ? if the parents can't/will not provide a good environment for the baby..

 

[LLJsmom]

My comments aren't towards these group of peoples. My Q is.. why bring a baby into this world ? if the parents can't/will not provide a good environment for the baby..

You are right. People should be able to take care of their own. But once the child is born, what can the child do? The child did not ask to be born. The people you highlighted are sometimes the people on welfare. The woman who was molested as a child was so damaged that she could not make good decisions, which led to her being on welfare. I'm glad there was help for her. If I was molested everyday for 5 years since I was 5, I probably would be dead right now. I realize I digress but do you know that 1/4 women are sexually abused in some way by age 18? I guess I should not get off topic.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Couldn't people argue the same for your family, DF? To come here and put your children to work, work for low wages in a cannery, not have them see their father until they were 12? Many people may have asked your mother the same question. Or do you consider that a "good environment."

You judge liberals yet didn't vote. You judge the unemployed yet you don't work. You judge people bringing a baby into an unstable environment when your parents did exactly that.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Couldn't people argue the same for your family, DF? To come here and put your children to work, work for low wages in a cannery, not have them see their father until they were 12? Many people may have asked your mother the same question. Or do you consider that a "good environment."

Our grandfather was well off ,but as fate would have it he pass way first before our evil step grandmother, so we were left with nothing.

In 1966 our grandfather sponsored us to the U.S., b/c he sees a better future for us here. Everything was ok till 1969 when grandfather passed away, then not too long after his funeral our (evil) step grandmother kick the 4 of us (my mom ,my brother, my sister and I) out of her house with $300. The $300 in cash was donations for grandfather's funeral from his friends.

 

[OreoRosies86]

So you were depending on a well off grandfather to sponsor you, but your parents otherwise could not have done it on their own?

 

[OreoRosies86]

And sorry not to keep needling, but how is not seeing your father until age 12 falling in line with the 2 parent traditional family you insist others have in place before having children (and in your mother's case 3 children)?

So you were getting financial assistance from a family member but it stopped only because he died. Correct? You were sponsored to come to the US for more opportunity and then had to work. Because the person financially supporting you passed away, and so you grew up, traded coins (still do sometimes as a hobby), and your wife landed a cushy government job, and now she supports you.

Did I leave anything out?

 

[OreoRosies86]

Also worth noting:
"$300.00 in 1969 had the same buying power as $2,040.27 in 2017."

 

[arkieb1]

My comments aren't towards these group of peoples. My Q is.. why bring a baby into this world ? if the parents can't/will not provide a good environment for the baby..

You really aren't getting it, do you think half the unmarried mothers out there that are 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and so on year olds all want to have kids? Sexual abuse and exploitation is rampant in your society and mine and frequently is isn't just poor working class people on welfare doing all the exploiting.

So the US is making it harder for young girls to get the contraceptive pill, the morning after pill and abortions and I assume that conservatives currently legislating are assuming if they cross their legs and pray all those things will stop happening? Wake up America.

Believe it or not DF, there are probably just as many hard working lefties out there that would never take a welfare payment themselves either, just because we believe in this utopian notion of shared resources and the fact we should be looking more closely at a lot of European countries that tax their citizens to the hilt and provide some of the best education, health care, transportation systems and liveable environments in the world doesn't mean we are all blindly promoting some endless black hole of welfare assistance, quite the opposite, I think you would find I personally am quite an economic rationalist. Just one that believes in equality and social justice.

 

[OreoRosies86]

You really aren't getting it, do you think half the unmarried mothers out there that are 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and so on year olds all want to have kids? Sexual abuse and exploitation is rampant in your society and mine and frequently is isn't just poor working class people on welfare doing all the exploiting.

So the US is making it harder for young girls to get the contraceptive pill, the morning after pill and abortions and I assume that conservatives currently legislating are assuming if they cross their legs and pray all those things will stop happening? Wake up America.

Believe it or not DF, there are probably just as many hard working lefties out there that would never take a welfare payment themselves either, just because we believe in this utopian notion of shared resources and the fact we should be looking more closely at a lot of European countries that tax their citizens to the hilt and provide some of the best education, health care, transportation systems and liveable environments in the world doesn't mean we are all blindly promoting some endless black hole of welfare assistance, quite the opposite, I think you would find I personally am quite an economic rationalist. Just one that believes in equality and social justice.

This afternoon I have an interview to clean houses in the morning during the days I don't work until evening. Do I want to do it, no. Will it help, yup.

 

[Tekate]

This afternoon I have an interview to clean houses in the morning during the days I don't work until evening. Do I want to do it, no. Will it help, yup.

I cleaned houses all thru college, I had work/study too... I took loans.. I'm just as liberal today as then. I don't want welfare, but I would have taken it if I tried I'm sure.. my father always worked 3 jobs my whole life. We do what we can do. Lucky me, I got luckylucky and got a lowish level job at IBM and worked my up and married a guy who did well.. not everyone has my luck. I commend Elliot. Also I understand how hard it is.

 

[Dancing Fire]

So you were depending on a well off grandfather to sponsor you, but your parents otherwise could not have done it on their own?

No, plane tickets were very expensive back then. My guess would be like $500 per ticket from HK to the U.S. in 1966.

 

[Dancing Fire]

And sorry not to keep needling, but how is not seeing your father until age 12 falling in line with the 2 parent traditional family you insist others have in place before having children (and in your mother's case 3 children)?

So you were getting financial assistance from a family member but it stopped only because he died. Correct? You were sponsored to come to the US for more opportunity and then had to work. Because the person financially supporting you passed away, and so you grew up, traded coins (still do sometimes as a hobby), and your wife landed a cushy government job, and now she supports you.

Did I leave anything out?

I'm just joking about her supporting me...

 

[Dancing Fire]

I cleaned houses all thru college, I had work/study too... I took loans.. I'm just as liberal today as then. I don't want welfare, but I would have taken it if I tried I'm sure.. my father always worked 3 jobs my whole life. We do what we can do. Lucky me, I got luckylucky and got a lowish level job at IBM and worked my up and married a guy who did well.. not everyone has my luck. I commend Elliot. Also I understand how hard it is.

T
Kudos to you, and that's the way it should be. .. by working part time thru college and then landing a job and work your way up the ladder.

T...I want my daughters to be just like you...

 

[Dancing Fire]

Also worth noting:
"$300.00 in 1969 had the same buying power as $2,040.27 in 2017."

So how long do you think you can last today with $2k a family of 4 o/w working?

 

[Tekate]

T
Kudos to you, and that's the way it should be. .. by working part time thru college and then landing a job and work your way up the ladder.

T...I want my daughters to be just like you...

I'm sure they are wonderful women.. you, your wife and family have shown them what it is to work in America. We do what we must.