America is Regressing

[siamese3]

I think that the discrepancy between classes will only continue to worsen as the middleclass loses the framework that it was built upon. Good jobs with long term security, health benefits, pensions that you could get with a high school diploma are not coming back. Automation will continue to be a larger and larger part of companies "work force" taking over many service jobs, which even now, don't pay many a living wage. It is, IMO, something we should be talking much, much more about as a country. It is really a big problem and it is not being helped or solved by the fantasy that we can go back to the "good old days." The economic climate at that time (after WWII) was ripe for opportunity and growth in all sorts of different ways. We are not, nor could we be, in that same economic climate again. I totally think that the word "hopeless" is actually probably a perfect word for how many, many people are feeling at this time. The solutions to this will not be easy, nor do I think they will be comfortable for all of us.

 

[siamese3]

I was just thinking about the title of this thread and the idea of what powerful emotions can be brought up by reminiscing about the good old days. I have been a victim of this. It's human nature I think, to not remember much of the bad, to hang onto the good. To romanticize. Change can be scary and hard. Very hard. The future, by nature, uncertain. Throw economic distress in there, and I think that is exactly how we end up hopeless. Which then makes me think of those darn hamsters in the experiment about learned helplessness. It's a big hole to climb out of in the best of circumstances.

 

[Tekate]

Agree 100%, but how can we convince young kids not to drop out of school?

By eliminating what they don't need and promoting what they are good at, not pushing academics these kids can't or won't do. A general diploma. Not everyone needs to take pre-calc, chemistry II.. start with a general diploma and career training.

 

[redwood66]

By eliminating what they don't need and promoting what they are good at, not pushing academics these kids can't or won't do. A general diploma. Not everyone needs to take pre-calc, chemistry II.. start with a general diploma and career training.

I'll agree with all of that.

 

[azstonie]

Agree 100%, but how can we convince young kids not to drop out of school?

OH! OH! I know the answer to this one from real-life experience!!! (12 years teaching.)

You supplement and enrich the education of those young kids starting from pre- or elementary school. You consistently show them a more secure life than what they live presently. You show them exactly how to get into/graduate from college or trade school. You hold them accountable for their grades and attitude and behavior. You don't expect anything less than college or trade school from them. You show them by investing in their education that even though their parents gave up on them, that society NEEDS them to succeed and prosper and will help them do so.

DF, your parents had HOPE for their children and grandchildren. That is the diff btw you/your circumstances and children coming up in poverty now, whose families are hopeless.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Hopelessness. This is what is killing these people. How can we speak of a better education if even free meals program at schools is going to be cut? And tell me how someone with average IQ fit for a blue-collar job is going to find it, when all blue-collar jobs are gone?

Forget about the free lunch. We have free educations and many kids still drop out of HS, so free lunch have nothing to do with going to class.

 

[Dancing Fire]

OH! OH! I know the answer to this one from real-life experience!!! (12 years teaching.)

You supplement and enrich the education of those young kids starting from pre- or elementary school. You consistently show them a more secure life than what they live presently. You show them exactly how to get into/graduate from college or trade school. You hold them accountable for their grades and attitude and behavior. You don't expect anything less than college or trade school from them. You show them by investing in their education that even though their parents gave up on them, that society NEEDS them to succeed and prosper and will help them do so.

sounds good to me...

 

[Arkteia]

Forget about the free lunch. We have free educations and many kids still drop out of HS, so free lunch have nothing to do with going to class.

I can not forget about free lunches. They may be the only meal some of these kids get during the day. Coming back to Baltimore - during the riots, school were closed, but several organizations still brought meals to kids.
I found out that there are two organizations in WA who take over delivering kids their free meals in summertime. They say that the hunger problem is bigger than we think, and WA is a successful state.
Currently new education plan envisages nullifying free lunches at schools, and I view it as a serious problem.

 

[t-c]

OH! OH! I know the answer to this one from real-life experience!!! (12 years teaching.)

You supplement and enrich the education of those young kids starting from pre- or elementary school. You consistently show them a more secure life than what they live presently. You show them exactly how to get into/graduate from college or trade school. You hold them accountable for their grades and attitude and behavior. You don't expect anything less than college or trade school from them. You show them by investing in their education that even though their parents gave up on them, that society NEEDS them to succeed and prosper and will help them do so.

DF, your parents had HOPE for their children and grandchildren. That is the diff btw you/your circumstances and children coming up in poverty now, whose families are hopeless.

sounds good to me...

Forget about the free lunch. We have free educations and many kids still drop out of HS, so free lunch have nothing to do with going to class.

Do you realize that you've contradicted yourself here? A free lunch is part of the ways to "show [young kids] a more secure life than what they live presently", that they can get a meal, maybe their only meal, so they can focus on learning instead of on hunger.

You support education but are against welfare. But don't you see that both and more (housing, child care, equal opportunity / equal pay, living wage, job training, etc...) are needed to move people out of entrenched poverty? How does a mother work when there's no one to take care of her child? How does a child learn that hard work and education pay off when he doesn't see it in his day to day existence? How does a student focus on school when he doesn't have a place to live?

You say your family came to the US from China with nothing and made something of yourselves. But you were lucky to have come in the 60's, a time when there was still great social mobility -- when there wasn't a chasm between a poor school and a rich school, when simply being smart gets one into a good college, when poor kids didn't have to compete against kids with test preps/consultants/extra tutoring. One can argue that a poor family in the US now faces a bigger, steeper, rougher mountain to climb while having to start from a deeper hole. Giving up on programs because a few abuse the system also abandons those who wish to do better.

 

[arkieb1]

My parents had no tools, no skills, don't speak english, but still they found a job. Had my parents gone on welfare I would have probably followed their footsteps. Why do you think we have 3 generations of welfare recipients here in the US?

But, DF I would argue that you & your family still had some sort of innate work ethic or the desire to want to obtain a better life for yourself and your children. Many of these people have given up because they cannot see a way forward like your family did. Opportunities that existed in the 60s might not be there now. I doubt your parents would have gone on welfare because for many of our parents or grandparents it wasn't a culturally acceptable thing to do.

You also site education as the pathway out of poverty, and you know for years I thought the same thing. That was until I saw children in schools with addled brains from being born to meth and ice addicts who will never ever be capable of attending universities or indeed getting ahead simply via education. So removing all welfare and forcing everyone to either work or go to school isn't viable in places where there are no jobs, and they cannot afford to simply move somewhere else, or when you have children that will never be able to hold down a full time job let alone sit for hours a day in a structured classroom environment. What other answers do you have DF? Because the ones you have suggested so far don't work for a vast number of unemployed people.

 

[Dancing Fire]

You support education but are against welfare. But don't you see that both and more (housing, child care, equal opportunity / equal pay, living wage, job training, etc...) are needed to move people out of entrenched poverty? How does a mother work when there's no one to take care of her child? How does a child learn that hard work and education pay off when he doesn't see it in his day to day existence? How does a student focus on school when he doesn't have a place to live?

I do support social programs I just don't support long term social programs for the able to work.

How does a mother work when there's no one to take care of her child?
How?
In our case wife and I work different hours so we can take care of our daughters.

How does a child learn that hard work and education pay off when he doesn't see it in his day to day existence?
It is call parental guidance.

How does a student focus on school when he doesn't have a place to live?
The traditional way would be for the parents to work and pay for food and rent.

 

[Dancing Fire]

But, DF I would argue that you & your family still had some sort of innate work ethic or the desire to want to obtain a better life for yourself and your children. Many of these people have given up because they cannot see a way forward like your family did. Opportunities that existed in the 60s might not be there now. I doubt your parents would have gone on welfare because for many of our parents or grandparents it wasn't a culturally acceptable thing to do.
You are 100% correct!

You also site education as the pathway out of poverty, and you know for years I thought the same thing. That was until I saw children in schools with addled brains from being born to meth and ice addicts who will never ever be capable of attending universities or indeed getting ahead simply via education. So removing all welfare and forcing everyone to either work or go to school isn't viable in places where there are no jobs, and they cannot afford to simply move somewhere else, or when you have children that will never be able to hold down a full time job let alone sit for hours a day in a structured classroom environment. What other answers do you have DF? Because the ones you have suggested so far don't work for a vast number of unemployed people.

IMO, it is the parent's responsibility, so don't bring a child into this world unless you can afford to raise the baby.

 

[Dancing Fire]

It is time for the liberals to stop making excuses for the poor. making excuses does not help them to a better future.

most of these kids grew up in a single parent home w/o proper family supervision, plus their parents mostly likely grew up in the same type of family environment. Why do you think that there are so many young Asians in the medical and high tech field today? b/c most of these Asians were raised by both parents who would push their kids to go to college and get a higher level of education.

 

[t-c]

I do support social programs I just don't support long term social programs for the able to work.

How does a mother work when there's no one to take care of her child?
How?
In our case wife and I work different hours so we can take care of our daughters.

You seem to think your situation is what everyone else is going through. Most mothers on welfare are single moms -- there is no father with whom they can share the burden of raising a child. So, now, answer the first question keeping that in mind. And no, the whole "they shouldn't have had a child in the first place" won't do because we have to deal with the problem facing us.

How does a child learn that hard work and education pay off when he doesn't see it in his day to day existence?
It is call parental guidance.

It's hard to give parental guidance if a single mother who is lucky enough to hold down work has to work incredibly long hours. And what if that parent never had parental guidance either? How can they break the welfare cycle. You rail against long-term welfare dependency but don't provide a means of getting out of it. You would just cut them off -- well what happens to them? Do you just let them starve?

How does a student focus on school when he doesn't have a place to live?
The traditional way would be for the parents to work and pay for food and rent.

Yes, the traditional way. Again, you don't address the problem here: the traditional way doesn't apply and saying it should doesn't make it so.

It is time for the liberals to stop making excuses for the poor. making excuses does not help them to a better future.

most of these kids grew up in a single parent home w/o proper family supervision, plus their parents mostly likely grew up in the same type of family environment. Why do you think that there are so many young Asians in the medical and high tech field today? b/c most of these Asians were raised by both parents who would push their kids to go to college and get a higher level of education.

I'm not trying to make excuses, I support trying to find a way to stop the welfare cycle. I believe people need help to get out. You seem to think cutting off benefits will solve the situation -- but you're saving cents now only to pay in dollars later, because the problem remains, gets bigger, and people get angrier. If history is a guide, at some point with massive poverty and inequality, comes a revolution.

Yeah, now you acknowledge the actual situation these people are in, but your answer to my questions above hardly shows that awareness. You pick and choose, dodge and weave.

 

[cmd2014]

I'm not sure how the suggestions above would apply to what I regularly see in my practice: single moms with severe drug and alcohol abuse issues, fathers dead, abusive (in the home or out of it with a protective order barring them from committing further violence, which works about 1/3 of the time at best), or in jail, kids who have been physically abused, sexually abused, who have grown up witnessing drug abuse and violence, who have suffered extreme neglect, and who often go days without food, kids who have been in and out of foster care (which is often no better or worse than what was happening for them at home), and kids who are born with FAS, FASD, or with other intellectual disabilities due to in utero drug and alcohol exposure. These are the communities without hope.

Immigrants (especially from Asian countries) in contrast typically come from places in which economic opportunity is poor, but they don't often come with the kinds of psychosocial traumas that the people from the communities that we are talking about come from. The incidence of alcohol and drug abuse is low, the incidence of domestic violence is low, the incidence of intellectual disabilities and mental health issues are low, an emphasis on education is made as is the hope of a better, more successful life with hard work. In addition, the systemic issues of racism are not present in the same way as for the poor communities that we are really talking about. That's not to say that there isn't racism, it's just different.

What puzzles me about conservative thought is that you say that people shouldn't have children that they can't afford to raise (I agree btw), but then you bar access to birth control to those who can least afford to access it. How does this make sense???

You say that parents should do better to raise their children (and that children should bootstrap themselves up out of the situations that truly don't give them a chance), but you cut funding for educational programs, drug and alchohol rehabilitation programs, domestic violence programs, and positive parenting programs, you cut educational enrichment programs, lunch programs, and after school programs for at risk kids, and you support crime legislation that favours punishment and long sentences instead of rehabilitation efforts (and yes, I am more aware than most about the success rates of these programs - they get people when it is generally too late).

Any you say that everyone should be able to work, but you cut funding for adequate health care and mental health care, leaving millions truly unable to become productive members of society. I had never seen so many amputees until I came to work in the US. People, this is a treatment of last resort! But in certain groups of people who can't afford basic health care, it becomes necessary when simple things like diabetes and/or infections are left untreated well beyond the point of no return. Same with tooth extractions. And don't even get me started on mental health care. Untreated schizophrenia and bipolar disorder leads to a pattern of irreversible cognitive deficits, so that even if treatment is given, the person often would not be capable of work.

So how does this fix anything?

 

[OreoRosies86]

I'm a single mom, who works, does homework with my oldest, and has dinner on the table every night. No weekly or monthly support from their dad. Try it sometime DF. You wouldn't last one day.

 

[siamese3]

I'm a single mom, who works, does homework with my oldest, and has dinner on the table every night. No weekly or monthly support from their dad. Try it sometime DF. You wouldn't last one day.

I am awed by single moms that do it all.

Edited to say: I am pretty awed by moms in general. Worlds hardest job.

 

[OreoRosies86]

I am awed by single moms that do it all.

Edited to say: I am pretty awed by moms in general. Worlds hardest job.

The worst is assumptions people have about our life. Like my kids are somehow lacking opportunity or stability and that I just had them for a government check. What a joke. I receive no assistance from the government. I'm tired most of the time, so tired that I'm tired of being quiet about it. F*** those people and their judgement and negativity.

 

[monarch64]

What puzzles me about conservative thought is that you say that people shouldn't have children that they can't afford to raise (I agree btw), but then you bar access to birth control to those who can least afford to access it. How does this make sense???

You say that parents should do better to raise their children (and that children should bootstrap themselves up out of the situations that truly don't give them a chance), but you cut funding for educational programs, drug and alchohol rehabilitation programs, domestic violence programs, and positive parenting programs, you cut educational enrichment programs, lunch programs, and after school programs for at risk kids, and you support crime legislation that favours punishment and long sentences instead of rehabilitation efforts (and yes, I am more aware than most about the success rates of these programs - they get people when it is generally too late).

So how does this fix anything?

EXACTLY. Because forbidding people not to do something biologically natural has worked out SO WELL for thousands of years! Yet it's liberals who live in elitist bubbles. Mm hmm. Right.

 

[soxfan]

I'm a single mom, who works, does homework with my oldest, and has dinner on the table every night. No weekly or monthly support from their dad. Try it sometime DF. You wouldn't last one day.

 

[redwood66]

So instead of throwing up our hands or throwing more money at it, why don't people work together for a solution?

It might be seem a bit communistic but there are other ways to help people that may not be so comfortable. Maybe less comfort and more requirements would be an incentive? The federal government owns property in all 50 states sitting idle, they also own or have access to FEMA housing. Instead of subsidizing landlords with rent allow people to live in these "communes" for lack of a better word. Schools all over the US use mobile trailers for extra classrooms so add a campus of these that have skills training for people living at the facility in the FEMA housing. If after a period of 2 years on assistance you are still receiving it then you must move to one of these facilities, enroll, attend and graduate from the courses or be cut off assistance. People living at these facilities would provide daycare in a separate building for others if they are qualified. Graduates could even apply for the federal jobs that will be necessary at the facilities. The federal government already knows how to run such a place because we have military bases all over the US and the world. Albeit they need to do it more efficiently with less $ waste. I have long thought that the homelessness in some cities could be addressed by the FEMA trailers. I hate waste. Heck, workers in North Dakota live in them because there is not enough housing.

I realize this does not address addicts but that is a whole other problem that someone else can work out.

Something has to be done and this would be expensive at first but might help a great many people get out of poverty if they really want to. Besides the billions of dollars already spent on welfare are not helping the situation.

Just an idea.

 

[arkieb1]

I do support social programs I just don't support long term social programs for the able to work.

How does a mother work when there's no one to take care of her child?
How?
In our case wife and I work different hours so we can take care of our daughters.

How does a child learn that hard work and education pay off when he doesn't see it in his day to day existence?
It is call parental guidance.

How does a student focus on school when he doesn't have a place to live?
The traditional way would be for the parents to work and pay for food and rent.

So conservatives want to take away free access to better birth control options yet you don't want these people having children? That is your solution? Maybe you need to go and volunteer in some communities where girls that are 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14, where, (as you correctly point out) there are frequently no father figures and often times the men in Mum's life might get drunk or everyone is taking drugs and they end up raping or abusing some of these girls and they get pregnant.

Yes DF for you and I, it was called "parental guidance", but a lot of kids out there, don't get the luxury you refer to as "parental guidance, for example the mentally impaired teen that lives in a home with an ice addict or a mother who works on the streets or children that live with a Mum that works 3 jobs to put a roof over heads of the kids, or the older kid looking after 3 or 4 younger kids while the one adult struggles to work. Children want and need stability and security but so many of them don't get it.

All of your assumptions are based around the outdated 1960s+ concept of a nuclear family - those days are long gone, and they aren't coming back again. Women have kids to 2, 3, 4 or more different guys who don't stick around to pay for the kids, let alone parent them. People get divorced, s@#* happen, life happens, they don't conform to this one dimensional stereotype of a nuclear family unit that you seem to want to impose upon them.

If we turned back time and put your pregnant wife that spoke limited English in a US city in 2017 with no you (so no husband) and no other family members to help her, and gave her emotional and mental impairments because her mother was a crack addict, do you think your children would have had the same opportunities that you and your wife gave them? If we gave your wife 3 young children in a city in 2017 no other family members and you were in jail or dead, you do think that your children would have the same opportunities you and your wife gave them?

I believe the answer is no. You can't make everyone fit neatly into a box that should resemble your own life experiences, because it is a gross oversimplification and for the people out there in need, they can probably no more relate to your life experiences than you obviously do to theirs.

 

[monarch64]

Redwood, I think I've mentioned this before but I'm going to throw it out there again. (I am all for working towards a day when we don't need to keep "throwing money at it.") One of the projects I've been working on with a local school system is an education/workforce initiative. Basically it's a program we developed to get workplaces to partner with the school to give students the initiative to stay in school, maintain good attendance and grades, and be guaranteed an interview with a company when they graduate. The students who participate will receive a certificate kind of like a letter of recommedation, stating they had completed the program by demonstrating a good work ethic by doing the things a job requires--showing up consistently, on time, and performing effectively. While it seems basic, and some would say unnecessary, in this particularly depressed area we have a lot of kids who aren't motivated to stay in school because they think it's easier to drop out and cook meth than it is to find gainful employment. This benefits the entire community, without really a ton of effort or money (the school applied for and received a grant from the state; the employers stand to benefit by confidently hiring young people with demonstrated good work ethics, the town benefits because its population is gainfully employed, etc.) You know, working together, without a boatload of government involvement aside from the public school and little bit of state funding. #goals

 

[redwood66]

I love that you are doing this monnie. It is a testament to your attitude of helping those that want to be helped for a better future. More needs to be done like this because just saying that everyone needs to go to college is wrong IMO. So many cannot even get through high school. Your program has basic requirements that are necessary for anyone to prosper.

 

[Tekate]

It is time for the liberals to stop making excuses for the poor. making excuses does not help them to a better future.

most of these kids grew up in a single parent home w/o proper family supervision, plus their parents mostly likely grew up in the same type of family environment. Why do you think that there are so many young Asians in the medical and high tech field today? b/c most of these Asians were raised by both parents who would push their kids to go to college and get a higher level of education.

DF, did your family emigrate in this time period?
http://www.shmoop.com/1960s/timeline.html

Did you think this was a reason why they were able to emigrate?
http://www.asian-nation.org/1965-immigration-act.shtml

Do you think this was helpful for your family?
http://elcoushistory.tripod.com/economics1960.html

Would you agree that the 1960s, American economy, was quite different than it is today?
Do you remember the inflationary period in the 1970s? (I do, but i'm 64).

The economy was quite different when you emigrated here than it is today.

One thing that has changed is social mores. What do we do about this? or should we?
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...unmarried-women-exceeded-40-8th-straight-year

Marriage didn't come into being until the 12th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage

Marriage when I was young was typical dad to work, mom at home (drinking Irish mom) a bunch of kids, church on Sunday, parochial school during the week, very insular. A lot has changed.

As religion has begun eroding in the USA - marriage has decreased, no mean old god handing out fire and buring in hell.

I think we have to change, it's a brave new world (thanks Aldous!) and the convention of marriage has changed.

What the root of the problem is and has been for the last 30 years imho.. loss of jobs.. loss of the middle class (which I have been reading about since the 70s)... growth of good jobs, not low paying jobs..

So therefore I believe in entrepreneurship and the small employer, from little acorn companies grow mighty MSFTs and IBMs and Intels... but this little acorn cannot grow from a 1960s environment.. I accept you feel because your family came here and worked very hard and achieved success. All the food trucks growing into restaurants etc show that growth is still possible.. but what will our huge employers be? what is the growth in? it seems to some extent it's the word I hate but also accept: STEM... for now anyway.

http://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/ibm-ceo-ginni-rometty-promises-25000-new-collar-jobs
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech...-jobs-employers-demand-ibms-rometty/95382248/

maybe the young and people who need retraining should read the above? maybe the government should help in retraining. (personally I don't like Ginni, never did but I do believe in some of what she says).

 

[Dancing Fire]

Yeah, now you acknowledge the actual situation these people are in, but your answer to my questions above hardly shows that awareness. You pick and choose, dodge and weave.

TC...I didn't pick and choose. Your above post described my life story to the teeth...

In 1969 after our grandfather passed away our step grandmother kick the 4 of us (me, my mom ,my brother and sister) out of her house with $300. The $300 in cash was donations for grandfather's funeral from his friends. I remember renting a 2BR apartment for $65 per month and bought a used refrigerator for $10. Anyway, Instead of us going on welfare my 21 yr. brother found a job working in a Chinese restaurant kitchen for $180 per month? to support a family of four. Back in those days it was shameful for Chinese immigrants to be on welfare. It is now 51 yrs since we immigrated to the U.S. ..I have seen so much change in our country in the past 51 yrs, and not for the better... Welfare used to be a helping hand till you find a job, but now so many people see welfare as a career...

My mom was a single parent of 3 children from 1969-1971 before my dad Immigrated to the US in 71. My mom work in a cannery during those three summers.

Yes!, My parents been there, done that w/o being able to speak a single word of English nor knew how to drive. If my non speaking English parents can make it w/o depending on social programs so should Americans who were born in US. My parents were not rich when they retired but they did save enough money (maybe like $3K?) for d/p on a $17K house by working 12 hr days in a Chinese restaurant kitchen.

My non English speaking FIL and MIL also had to work 12 hr days to support 7 kids. My FIL work in a Chinese restaurant as a cook and MIL work inside a car garage (over 105 degree) folding fortune cookies by hand.

The bottom line is you must work/help yourself out of poverty. A welfare career doesn't help anyone out of poverty.

 

[redwood66]

Kate thanks for all the links and I will take a look at them when I have time. Yes we are living in a whole new world and we must adapt to it. Sure people don't flock to religion or have the marriage with 2 kids and one good job to support them. But society has a right to demand that people who are able eventually make their own way, however that may be. I don't care if you choose to be a single mother or married or a single dad or whomever you are.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Yeah, things might be a little different for people nowadays. Houses back then cost less than a semester of college today. You could make it on one income.

Single parents now? Most don't have a prayer. It sucks. I'm not going to fall into the hopelessness of drugs and seek oblivion, but do I sympathize with that feeling? Sure do.

 

[monarch64]

I love that you are doing this monnie. It is a testament to your attitude of helping those that want to be helped for a better future. More needs to be done like this because just saying that everyone needs to go to college is wrong IMO. So many cannot even get through high school. Your program has basic requirements that are necessary for anyone to prosper.

Thanks. The sad part of it is that we were met with a fair amount of resistance, from both the school system and employers. People just hate change. This is also an area of tiny little towns so stuck in their ways that their populations are declining rapidly because they aren't desirable locations to live despite their beautiful natural environments. They've become ridden with meth labs and tweaked out zombies with lots of guns. So when outsiders come in and try to help, the immediate reaction is defense, and "well, this is the way of life here and you city people aren't going to waltz in here and make us change."

Fortunately one of my colleagues was able to talk the superintendant out of raising $1 million for a new football field and instead raising money to supply every student in grades 9-12 with a Chromebook. Of course, met with more resistance, but in the end acquiesced.

It will be very interesting to follow this project over the coming years. I know some PSrs didn't understand why others thought it was so important to protest and participate in marches recently. But the thing is, without people willing to go against the grain, be disliked, be mocked, and be brave enough to do all this very publicly, changes like the ones my coworkers and I are trying to make would never occur, and the bad takes over the good. Because of complacency.

 

[redwood66]

DF I am glad to see you making an effort to make longer posts to get your point across. The one liner drive-bys were not helping further the conversation. I appreciate your opinion.