America is Regressing

[Arkteia]

Do you realize that you've contradicted yourself here? A free lunch is part of the ways to "show [young kids] a more secure life than what they live presently", that they can get a meal, maybe their only meal, so they can focus on learning instead of on hunger.

You support education but are against welfare. But don't you see that both and more (housing, child care, equal opportunity / equal pay, living wage, job training, etc...) are needed to move people out of entrenched poverty? How does a mother work when there's no one to take care of her child? How does a child learn that hard work and education pay off when he doesn't see it in his day to day existence? How does a student focus on school when he doesn't have a place to live?

You say your family came to the US from China with nothing and made something of yourselves. But you were lucky to have come in the 60's, a time when there was still great social mobility -- when there wasn't a chasm between a poor school and a rich school, when simply being smart gets one into a good college, when poor kids didn't have to compete against kids with test preps/consultants/extra tutoring. One can argue that a poor family in the US now faces a bigger, steeper, rougher mountain to climb while having to start from a deeper hole. Giving up on programs because a few abuse the system also abandons those who wish to do better.

I would put it in a more simple way. While there are people who abuse the system, they are adults, not kids. Among adults, there are some who really struggle, and some who merely repeat their mothers' path. But the kids who were brought into this world - surely they are not abusing anything? We can not punish them by hunger even if their parents are less-than-perfect citizens. We can not send the message to "welfare moms" to stop having kids by starving the ones they have. We are not Third World country.
(And then, the message that the government sends is very strange indeed. On the one hand, don't have kids irresponsibly, on the other, we are not going to cover your oral contraceptives and we are going to shut down PP).

 

[ksinger]

I would put it in a more simple way. While there are people who abuse the system, they are adults, not kids. Among adults, there are some who really struggle, and some who merely repeat their mothers' path. But the kids who were brought into this world - surely they are not abusing anything? We can not punish them by hunger even if their parents are less-than-perfect citizens. We can not send the message to "welfare moms" to stop having kids by starving the ones they have. We are not Third World country.
(And then, the message that the government sends is very strange indeed. On the one hand, don't have kids irresponsibly, on the other, we are not going to cover your oral contraceptives and we are going to shut down PP).

Ah, you see though, if you withhold help for the lazy worthless parents long enough - you know, to teach them a lesson, then those innocent kids will become adults and thus won't be innocent any longer, and then you can safely slag them for all their lazy, bad choices. Voilà! You're off the hook! Works like a charm.

Another trick too, is to keep revising the concept of who is "deserving", to keep revising that number downward. It's a time-honored strategy that can be applied to many issues, not just poverty. And if you really want it to work well, remember to always cast the issues in moralistic good/bad choice terms, kind of like this revealing little gem from an Alabama state legislator:

"“My understanding is that (the new proposal) will allow insurance companies to require people who have higher health care costs to contribute more to the insurance pool. That helps offset all these costs, thereby reducing the cost to those people who lead good lives, they’re healthy, they’ve done the things to keep their bodies healthy. And right now, those are the people — who’ve done things the right way — that are seeing their costs skyrocketing.”"

 

[vintagelover229]

Not sure if any of you follow JP Sears but if you haven't and like the different kind of humor you'll find him funny.
This is one of his more recent videos-he has one on almost everything LOL!

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1701241633225025

 

[vintagelover229]

This is not light reading, but will give insight to 'the other side' of childhood trauma and the long lasting impact of it. This person at least had reactive attachement disorder, if your unfamiliar with it, google it.

https://adoptingfaithafathersunconditionallove.org/2016/09/19/another-birthday-in-prison/

 

[redwood66]

I can't leave that here. Sorry.

 

[vintagelover229]

hugs redwood!
These experiences give us empathy and the ability to be merciful to those around us suffering. It also gives us a very unique perspective.

I can tell you where I nearly ended up a couple of times. For the life of me I can't recall HOW I found this guy, but I wasn't too shabby looking in my youth and stumbled upon a very nice looking (think a fit looking santa) who had a game he had invented. It involved cards and football, it was different but I caught on quickly. He has an office in a building (now I realize how easy those are to rent/get) and a young woman with him to 'worked' for him. He was training girls to be dealers for his gambling football card game to take to Vegas with him during the superbowl. He really liked me, we met a few times but I can't recall for the life of me why things didn't go though. Not lack of effort on my part though, I thought I had made a break into the modeling world.

Now that I understand a LOT more about sex trafficking, Los Vegas, the rouses that they use to get young women (and his was a lot better than most) I have no doubt it was the grace of God that for whatever reason things did not go as planned. Had I gotten on a plane with that man, got myself in Vegas I would have no doubt been put into a sex trafficking situation. Seriously there is NO DOUBT IN MY MIND looking back I can see the signs. That is just ONE of more than a few situations I put myself in that I could have had a very bad outcome. I also was once on a dating site and this guy wanted to hire me to be his personal assistant and travel with him (I lived in Houston at the time). I met with him for dinner-he talked about his previous one who spoke many languages (I see now that was to make me feel grateful if/when he offered me the position since I wasn't as qualified). But I wasn't too stupid, I frequently country bars and had befriended a middle aged cop. He went along with me and chilled at the bar basically under cover while I did my 'interview'. At the end I told him I would think about it and thanked him for his time and said oh btw just wanted to give you a heads up I brought a cop friend with me, he's at the bar. Instead of going home that night (in case he followed me since my radar was going off) I went and slept at his place.

Needless to say I was young, thought I had street smarts (I did to a degree) and put myself out there hoping to catch a break but all I caught was a bunch of predators. I shake my head at the young woman I was, the danger I put her in, the foolishness as well as the know it all attitude I had (faked it til you make it was my motto and like you I was good at fooling others).

I try to give myself grace and mercy too, I have faith that one day these experiences will allow me to help someone else in dark place or walking a dangerous line.

 

[cmd2014]

At least you can afford a vacation...

Making more excuses for people living in poverty?? ...

Nope, nothing will change unless they are willing to change themselves.

DF, I take it from your responses that you are not actually terribly interested in even considering the possibility that some of us who have experienced some of the things that we are trying to tell you about, or who work in professions that have us in direct contact with the populations that we are talking about, have anything to offer here that might make you reconsider your position. In fact, I don't actually think that you have a position other than "I did it, so everyone else should be able to do it too." Given this, I don't think there's much point in continuing to have this conversation with you.

But thank you for making me see why the divide between groups seems so impassable. It's difficult to understand and appreciate each other when there is no willingness to listen with an open mind, consider whether the other might have a valid point, or respond in a thoughtful and respectful way. IMO pithy one liners is code-speak for "I don't care and I'm not listening to you" so I'm going to take you at your word and stop trying.

Redwood, I'm so glad that you found the strength to find your way, despite some incredibly challenging circumstances. I have always found our conversations have given me food for thought, even when we don't agree, and knowing more about where you've come from helps me understand even more why you feel the way that you do about certain things. We are shaped by where we come from and by what we've overcome. Your story and vintagelover's story gives me hope that it is possible for people to find a better future, and I thank you for that.

 

[redwood66]

Thank you for your post vintagelover because I know how hard it is. I deleted mine because I just can't bring myself to leave it here. I am glad now that you got to read it. I wonder about the girl I was and how sad she must have been deep inside but putting on that brave face.

 

[vintagelover229]

Don't worry redwood! I understand not having history on PS. Interweb is lovely linked together with FB and pintrest and who knows what else now a days. For me it is what it is. I have had many posts removed (HayJoes foster thread has since been removed) but that had most of my history there. A few maybe have long memories and can recall it all.
I likely will do the same when this thread dies in a week or so

 

[vintagelover229]

Red: we are products of our environments. Its easy to be ashamed of who were were but remember WE WERE TRAINED TO SURVIVE AND COPE AT ALL COSTS. We DID it, and we actually did MORE than that. We CHANGED, we GREW. Many get stuck in a cycle and do not get out, do not change do not grow. ETA:
Even people from healthy homes many don't change and grow so YAY we are awesome LOL.
They don't face the pain, the rage and all the ugly that comes along with it. We are who we are today bc of everything that has happened in our lives to shape us. Including those young scared women we were putting on a brave face, doing our best to survive and cope-be it in unhealthy ways bc that's how we were taught and how many people even coming from HEALTHY HOMES cope.

Your beautiful, your strong, your amazing and an inspiration. Don't ever fear sharing your story since you never know who it may inspire who is also putting on a brave face to actually boldly face the darkness and run like hell though the tunnel into the light.

 

[redwood66]

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your words vintagelover. Because of anyone I believe you fully understand where I come from now that we know each other's stories.

cmd2014 thank you also because I have always thought that we can have a decent conversation without devolving into something else. I appreciate civility and usually regret it when I allow myself to become a nasty poster in response to someone else. I will have to say that having my opinion is difficult here on PS.

 

[siamese3]

Your beautiful, your strong, your amazing and an inspiration. Don't ever fear sharing your story since you never know who it may inspire who is also putting on a brave face to actually boldly face the darkness and run like hell though the tunnel into the light.

Red, I did read your post and I admire your honesty, your fortitude and your strong convictions.. I love when people lay it all out there, but I often do, (have not in this forum) and then later feel that perhaps I overshared. So I understand. I come from a family that is full of judgement, and it's often hard for me to not feel like everyone is judging me. I have worked out to try to overcome that. I also can be very judgmental (habit & environment) but I do not believe that it is truly in my nature. I fight hard every day to try to escape that tendency. Fortunately, I have an amazing DH who helps ground me and gives me perspective.

I also really liked this sentence:

I appreciate civility and usually regret it when I allow myself to become a nasty poster in response to someone else.

I feel the same ,but sometimes it's hard to not get provoked. Also humor doesn't always translate while in a written post and there isn't always the right emoticon.

 

[redwood66]

Red, I did read your post and I admire your honesty, your fortitude and your strong convictions.. I love when people lay it all out there, but I often do, (have not in this forum) and then later feel that perhaps I overshared. So I understand. I come from a family that is full of judgement, and it's often hard for me to not feel like everyone is judging me. I have worked out to try to overcome that. I also can be very judgmental (habit & environment) but I do not believe that it is truly in my nature. I fight hard every day to try to escape that tendency. Fortunately, I have an amazing DH who helps ground me and gives me perspective.

I also really liked this sentence:

I feel the same ,but sometimes it's hard to not get provoked. Also humor doesn't always translate while in a written post and there isn't always the right emoticon.

Thank you and I want to like the bolded sentence more than once! Judgmental families can be so debilitating. I know this and am so happy that my DH has helped me through all the early years of dealing with it. I put him through hell when it came to them and I am so glad he is my rock.

 

[AnnaH]

Red, sorry I missed your post because I find you so interesting but understand why you chose to delete.
I really appreciate those who share here as I know it is very helpful to read about the struggles of others. On the other hand, it can be risky, so no one is obligated to share anything.

 

[Dancing Fire]

DF I am glad to see you making an effort to make longer posts to get your point across. The one liner drive-bys were not helping further the conversation. I appreciate your opinion.

Do you know how long for a one finger typist to type one page ?...

 

[redwood66]

Red, sorry I missed your post because I find you so interesting but understand why you chose to delete.
I really appreciate those who share here as I know it is very helpful to read about the struggles of others. On the other hand, it can be risky, so no one is obligated to share anything.

AnnaH I am sorry. I can give you a Cliff Notes version. Take the three items of the old rock n roll mantra and put them on an unholy scale and you have about 3 years of my life before I decided to change it on my own. I am lucky to have gotten out alive but still had the intelligence and ability to hide it and hold a job while being poor as dirt in reality.

The original version was much more in depth and utterly sad for me to read back.

 

[LLJsmom]

My parents had no tools, no skills, don't speak english, but still they found a job. Had my parents gone on welfare I would have probably followed their footsteps. Why do you think we have 3 generations of welfare recipients here in the US?

DF, my family and back ground is similar to yours. But you have to look a little deeper as Arkie said. I wish I had time to have a longer deeper discussion with you but I hope you can see that not EVERY immigrant and ethnic background is the same and that has a huge impact on the values and beliefs and thus the behavior of following generations. Painting everyone with one same brush does nothing to help understand and improve the situation. Please DF, take a step back and try to empathize. I wish you well. I really do.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I'm a single mom, who works, does homework with my oldest, and has dinner on the table every night. No weekly or monthly support from their dad. Try it sometime DF. You wouldn't last one day.

My mom been there done that. the only difference is that my mom couldn't help me with my homeworks b/c she couldn't read or write english. I didn't meet my dad till I was 12 yrs old. My mom was pregnant with me when my dad left HK before I was born.

 

[azstonie]

Yea, She have been working for 4 months now...just save myself $1500 bucks on auto insurance.... guess who was paying her auto insurance all these yrs?..

I used to buy/sell American coins. I still do now and then just for fun...

Cool.

 

[redwood66]

Redwood, I'm so glad that you found the strength to find your way, despite some incredibly challenging circumstances. I have always found our conversations have given me food for thought, even when we don't agree, and knowing more about where you've come from helps me understand even more why you feel the way that you do about certain things. We are shaped by where we come from and by what we've overcome. Your story and vintagelover's story gives me hope that it is possible for people to find a better future, and I thank you for that.

Since I know you are interested in how people get to where they are in life and what shapes their views I am going to give you a bit more to chew on.

On this ride I was on I had two very close friends (they were sisters) that were already in this lifestyle when I met them and started my journey. They both had children under 3 with no present father and were on welfare. They wanted to party and did so with reckless abandon and no intention to better their situation or get any kind of job. The kids suffered and were essentially neglected. I met many others like them. I knew for sure that is not what I wanted for myself but it took me that long to figure it out while still going to my job every day. Their story is the one I remember when I hear what I think are excuses for remaining on welfare. Are there legitimate reasons? Of course. Does it mean that I do not have empathy for people in tough situations? Hardly, because I know tough situations and know full well how hard it is to get out but you have to start. People can do it and people can and should ask for help if they need to.

In the end I had to let them go and get away for my own sake.

 

[MJ_Mac]

Do you know how long for a one finger typist to type one page ?...

Okay Dancing Fire, what is your excuse for being a one fingered typist? There is no excuse. You are an intelligent man living in the online world wanting to communicate with others. Come on, educate yourself, learn how to type with more than one finger. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps and learn man! You have absolutely no excuse even if you have arthritis in your hands. I have arthritis and if I can type with more than one finger so can you. (And you have hands because we've all seen pictures of your ring and watches). If I can do it, so can you - no excuses.

Okay, now we all know what I just did here . It's all in jest, but you get my point Dancing Fire. This is in reference to all the if I can do it so can everyone else. Am I really going to look down on you because you type with one finger, no - of course not. I realize we're all different. That's just the point that is being stressed. I thought I would just try fighting sarcasm with sarcasm.

 

[Tekate]

Kate thanks for all the links and I will take a look at them when I have time. Yes we are living in a whole new world and we must adapt to it. Sure people don't flock to religion or have the marriage with 2 kids and one good job to support them. But society has a right to demand that people who are able eventually make their own way, however that may be. I don't care if you choose to be a single mother or married or a single dad or whomever you are.

Red, I agree, I just think there are a % of people who just can't and never will, either by drugs, or low IQ.. some people just don't have an 'inner core' like you and me.. As we all agree, it's much harder to find good paying jobs.. but it it would be great if people did support their own way, but as I said, there is a % that can't. Peace

 

[redwood66]

Red, I agree, I just think there are a % of people who just can't and never will, either by drugs, or low IQ.. some people just don't have an 'inner core' like you and me.. As we all agree, it's much harder to find good paying jobs.. but it it would be great if people did support their own way, but as I said, there is a % that can't. Peace

I accept it. But that does not mean I have to condone it or agree with it.
Peace to you.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I had parents like DF's. They also were immigrants. It was ingrained in us. We don't go on welfare, ever. It was a very bad thing. In my family you could not even collect unemployment. You had to work. My brother has worked since he was 12. I worked since I was 16. I made $16.0 a week and had to pay my mother board of 5.00. I was going to high school at the time.
What occurred to me while reading is this. Why criticize the individual who was taught that welfare was not an acceptable choice in life and has accepted that premise as true. DF has become, as my brother and I have decent citizens who believe in a work ethic, and to make something of yourself, as my mother more than once said. I don't really believe he lacks compassion. Yes, bad things happen to people, but to continue to always say he doesn't understand is not giving him the same consideration you want to give others that do take welfare. He, too is a product of what he was taught. I'm glad he was taught that. He has nothing to feel guilty about. He has done his share. And I'd bet, this man would not let a child starve if he saw it. But welfare is not for him.

Annette

 

[AnnaH]

Red, Vintage and all, we've all put ourselves at risk, most often in our youth. I've often had a "but for the grace of God" moment.
Although I never put myself at risk legally, when visiting a women's prison as a volunteer or even a juvenile facility professionally, I'm aware that, given different circumstances in my life, who knows?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Okay Dancing Fire, what is your excuse for being a one fingered typist? There is no excuse. You are an intelligent man living in the online world wanting to communicate with others. Come on, educate yourself, learn how to type with more than one finger. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps and learn man! You have absolutely no excuse even if you have arthritis in your hands. I have arthritis and if I can type with more than one finger so can you. (And you have hands because we've all seen pictures of your ring and watches). If I can do it, so can you - no excuses.

My excuse? b/c I flunked my HS typing class. My wife have always brag about how she can type 75 + wpm on an old style typewriter... . I am probably the only PSer w/o a college degree..so I ask my daughters ...do you want to be uneducated like your dad or do you wanted to improve your lives by going to college?

 

[monarch64]

My excuse? b/c I flunked my HS typing class. My wife have always brag about how she can type 75 + wpm on an old style typewriter... . I am probably the only PSer w/o a college degree..so I ask my daughters ...do you want to be uneducated like your dad or do you wanted to improve your lives by going to college?

Too busy trying to look at the girls' boobs?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Too busy trying to look at the girls' boobs?

, that, plus too busy hanging out at gambling joints, pool halls and bowling alleys during the 70's- mid 80's. ..

 

[Calliecake]

After reading the comments here all I can say is I will never understand those lacking empathy and compassion. Dancing Fire I hope someday you come to realize your life was MUCH different then the people you compare yourself to. I know you would like to believe your family had it extremely difficult. You grew up with two parents who loved and offered you support. Im not sure you realize how wonderful your life was. I also hope your daughters know how lucky they are.

 

[Dancing Fire]

After reading the comments here all I can say is I will never understand those lacking empathy and compassion. Dancing Fire I hope someday you come to realize your life was MUCH different then the people you compare yourself to. I know you would like to believe your family had it extremely difficult. You grew up with two parents who loved and offered you support. Im not sure you realize how wonderful your life was. I also hope your daughters know how lucky they are.

Nope, I didn't meet my dad till I was 12 yrs old.