America is Regressing

[ksinger]

I think some of you will like this piece. It's not terribly long, but hits it pretty square on the head.

America is Regressing into a Developing Nation for Most People
https://www.ineteconomics.org/persp...sing-into-a-developing-nation-for-most-people

And a presentation by the economist from the article above.
https://www.ineteconomics.org/persp...loping-countries-reveals-about-todays-america

 

[Arkteia]

I think it is happening in the world in general, only smaller developed countries can control it for a while.

Iceland, the country with the population of 300,000. Stealing is immediately noticed. Not so difficult to catch corrupted bankers and put them behind bars.

In larger countries, the corruption is larger, but also, the effects of any measure are dampened for a while. The author is discussing the effects of Nixon's policy...Nixon has been dead for 10+ years, and we have finally caught the effect of the 70-es political measures...interesting.

I believe it is the AI that is the main factor, jobs disappear worldwide, so is the blue-collar class and now even the white-collar one. It is not just America. The same process is happening in SE Asia, many predict that the next market crash will be global and worse that 2008.

US reminds me of Titanic that has already seen the iceberg, far away... If you remember, the people saved were mostly from the upper desks, because they had boats. The lawmakers in DC are on the upper desks.

 

[AGBF]

It's a good article, k. Maybe I will look at the presentation, too.

Deb

 

[Tekate]

I think some of you will like this piece. It's not terribly long, but hits it pretty square on the head.

America is Regressing into a Developing Nation for Most People
https://www.ineteconomics.org/persp...sing-into-a-developing-nation-for-most-people

And a presentation by the economist from the article above.
https://www.ineteconomics.org/persp...loping-countries-reveals-about-todays-america

ksinger thank you for posting this. So true and so sad. Recently had to stop in coal country in PA, visiting family, I'd never been there, I was shocked at how horrible the condition of this town was. Whole main street was boarded up and selling junk.. I went to an Italian restaurant that was truly horrible.. my hotel was from 1978... boy I tell you, that was a huge wakeup for me.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Our country will move forward once we elect a minority conservative Prez. into office, but of course I will never witness a minority conservative Prez. in my lifetime even if I live to 100 yrs old.

 

[arkieb1]

I don't think it is new to anyone as an outsider looking in you have had a vast gap between rich and poor for a number of years and this seems to be getting worse not better.

 

[kenny]

America had its turn.
It was nice.

Now it's China's turn.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I don't think it is new to anyone as an outsider looking in you have had a vast gap between rich and poor for a number of years and this seems to be getting worse not better.

Do you know why? b/c the poor must willing to help themselves to get out of the cellar. Our family and all my close friends are poor Chinese immigrants from the 60's. When we first arrived in this country we can't speak a word of English, but many have achieved middle class status within a generation. How? b/c our parents was willing to work very hard so that their kids can have a better life than they did.

 

[AGBF]

America had its turn.
It was nice.

Now it's China's turn.

I heard somewhere that China's turn is almost over. Some economists are predicting the Chinese economy was pumped up by a rapid expansion of credit, which will, somehow, lead to China's not being as Big as it is now. Don't ask me anymore. That's the limit of my knowledge on the subject.

Deb

 

[arkieb1]

Do you know why? b/c the poor must willing to help themselves to get out of the cellar. Our family and all my close friends are poor Chinese immigrants from the 60's. When we first arrived in this country we can't speak a word of English, but many have achieved middle class status within a generation. How? b/c our parents was willing to work very hard so that their kids can have a better life than they did.

Yes and that is what you and a few others keep arguing DF no one helped you & your family, and you made it, despite being poor, or arriving with nothing, so therefore all poor people must be like you. However, as you can well see it doesn't work that way, all poor people are not the same, many people are born into poor families that simply don't know or understand the Asian work ethic or work ethic that a lot of nationalities bring with them. They have never been taught any better so they don't know better. And when they are given opportunities to help themselves out of poverty they have no clue what to do with them. So blaming them for being lazy, stupid, sponging off the system or inherently different from your family or indeed my Chinese ancestors that came to Australia in the late 1800s and worked their way into being middle class much like your family did doesn't achieve anything, it doesn't change anything.

Many of these people now live in rural communities if you absorbed the article where they cannot change their circumstances or magically just work hard like your parents did because the opportunities that existed back in the 60s in those communities simply no longer exist there today.

So rather than blaming them perhaps you should be sitting back thinking up ways to educate and help them change, we know they aren't like your family, but the point is instead of blaming them for "not helping themselves" it might be more productive to look at who they are and what THEY need in order to get out of poverty.

 

[Dancing Fire]

America had its turn.
It was nice.

Now it's China's turn.

You know how they became such a powerful nation? One word...capitalism!

 

[kenny]

You know how they became such a powerful nation? One word...capitalism!

Yeah.

In 2 or 3 generations China's turn will be up (they'll F it up like all spoiled rich countries eventually do) and it'll be time for another country to shine.
... maybe an African country.

 

[arkieb1]

Yeah.

In 2 or 3 generations China's turn will be up (they'll F it up like all spoiled rich countries eventually do) and it'll be time for another country to shine.
... maybe an African country.

India is predicted to be the next China.....

 

[Dancing Fire]

I heard somewhere that China's turn is almost over. Some economists are predicting the Chinese economy was pumped up by a rapid expansion of credit, which will, somehow, lead to China's not being as Big as it is now. Don't ask me anymore. That's the limit of my knowledge on the subject.

Deb

Ever since President Xi became Prez. the chinese economy have slow down b/c his admin. have been cracking down on corruptions. Many of the rich corrupted officials (with lots of $$) are either have been arrested, fled the country or hiding under their bed hoping not to get caught. It is not a coincidence that diamonds, expensive watches, expensive booze and other luxury goods have fallen in prices during the past few yrs.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Many of these people now live in rural communities if you absorbed the article where they cannot change their circumstances or magically just work hard like your parents did because the opportunities that existed back in the 60s in those communities simply no longer exist there today.

So rather than blaming them perhaps you should be sitting back thinking up ways to educate and help them change, we know they aren't like your family, but the point is instead of blaming them for "not helping themselves" it might be more productive to look at who they are and what THEY need in order to get out of poverty.

I wish the liberals would stop making excuses for the poor. No matter where you live in the US there are many good colleges to attend (IF) one wanted to be educated, and no I am not well educated... however, I did preach about the importance of attending college to my daughters. Chinese people always want their kids to achieve more in life than they did.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Yeah.

In 2 or 3 generations China's turn will be up (they'll F it up like all spoiled rich countries eventually do) and it'll be time for another country to shine.

I don't think China will ever return to communism.

 

[arkieb1]

I wish the liberals would stop making excuses for the poor. No matter where you live in the US there are many good colleges to attend (IF) one wanted to be educated, and no I am not well educated... however, I did preach about the importance of attending college to my daughters. Chinese people always want their kids to achieve more in life than they did.

Well I'm going to give you another example DF when you said that you and your wife observed people buying caviar or whatever it was that was extravagant with foodstamps and other people rorting the food stamp system, I sat back thinking yes sure rorting of the system happens, BUT and here's the thing where do you and your wife shop? My guess and I'm now making assumptions here, (just like you do when you lump all poor people into the same basket), that's it is probably some nice comfortable middle class supermarket in some nice comfortable middle class suburb. So imagine DF if you will, that you actually went to one of these poor rural areas with no jobs and no hope and you went into a supermarket and observed for a day what people on food stamps actually get with them. Yes again I'm sure there will be a small number exploiting the system, but I'd hazard a guess that a lot of them actually need them to feed themselves and their kids. Same if you went into a urban ghetto area in one of the hoods, sure again there will be people exploiting foodstamps but for everyone of those what is not to say you wouldn't observe another two who really use the things to buy food for themselves and their kids.

Saying I'm making excusing for the poor as a broad generalisation isn't addressing the fact that many of them simply don't have the tools, skills and work ethics or the understanding and or mental acuity to provide a better life for their kids. And actually if the US has small country towns like we do here with 3rd generation welfare recipients that have children born from ice addicts and meth addicts many of these children now are born with (and this is well document) such limited brain capacities that many of them are incapable of getting jobs like you, your children and I DF.

The bottom line is it's a complex issue that isn't simply about bleeding hearted liberals and lumping all poor into this one basket - that they should just copy Chinese immigrants shining example, because it simply isn't as easy as that. You and your family faced hardships sure, so did mine, no doubt so did many other poor people along the way, but that doesn't mean that you faced any of the same set of circumstances of many of these people.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Saying I'm making excusing for the poor as a broad generalisation isn't addressing the fact that many of them simply don't have the tools, skills and work ethics or the understanding and or mental acuity to provide a better life for their kids. And actually if the US has small country towns like we do here with 3rd generation welfare recipients that have children born from ice addicts and meth addicts many of these children now are born with (and this is well document) such limited brain capacities that many of them are incapable of getting jobs like you, your children and I DF.

My parents had no tools, no skills, don't speak english, but still they found a job. Had my parents gone on welfare I would have probably followed their footsteps. Why do you think we have 3 generations of welfare recipients here in the US?

 

[Arkteia]

I think there are too many of us in this world, 7 billion, and with automatization, the job market is shrinking. Technically, we all could have good life with robots providing us with everything necessary, but sadly, the distribution of resources is exceptionally unfair. I never thought I would be even posting it, having moved from the socialist system to the capitalist one, but "a little bit" of socialism may not be such a bad idea. Every public figure I respect, the Pope, Andrea Merkel, Bill Gates, everyone is speaking about the need to share, but most of us are too thick-skulled.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I think there are too many of us in this world, 7 billion, and with automatization, the job market is shrinking. Technically, we all could have good life with robots providing us with everything necessary, but sadly, the distribution of resources is exceptionally unfair. I never thought I would be even posting it, having moved from the socialist system to the capitalist one, but "a little bit" of socialism may not be such a bad idea. Every public figure I respect, the Pope, Andrea Merkel, Bill Gates, everyone is speaking about the need to share, but most of us are too thick-skulled.

Of course the rich must help the poor, but don't forget that welfare does not help getting someone out of poverty. A good education follow by finding a good job is the key.

 

[ksinger]

Thanks all for the responses. I'm glad this got a bit of traction and discussion.

 

[AGBF]

I wish the liberals would stop making excuses for the poor.

I do not believe that being poor is something for which one needs to be excused. It is a condition into which one is thrust by circumstances he cannot control. He does not ask to be excused for being born in Africa or being born in a war-ravaged country, after all. I find this statement outrageous.

AGBF

 

[OreoRosies86]

Before I read PS, I read another forum and it classified the site as (I'm paraphrasing) "Nice jewelry, snotty people."

I'm glad to have found that to be mostly untrue.

 

[siamese3]

Life is a series of circumstances. Sometimes the economic climate or the times that people live in, can provide better economic opportunities for success than others. People also vary. Two people given the same opportunity will not necessarily experience the same economic success. I think that it is always dangerous to over generalize about anyone. I agree that it's complicated. In my mind, I liken it to the idea that it's often hard to understand why people just don't change their circumstance to make things better for themselves. It's easy for us to see how much better life could be, if only they did a, b, and c. While it would be nice if it were that easy to solve the problem, it is not the way it works in the real world. There is an infinite number of outcomes that will be the result of any given person, in any given circumstance, acting in any number of ways. Is it luck? Fate? Hard work? IMHO, there are so many variables and most likely it is a combination of all of these things.

 

[Tekate]

Life is a series of circumstances. Sometimes the economic climate or the times that people live in, can provide better economic opportunities for success than others. People also vary. Two people given the same opportunity will not necessarily experience the same economic success. I think that it is always dangerous to over generalize about anyone. I agree that it's complicated. In my mind, I liken it to the idea that it's often hard to understand why people just don't change their circumstance to make things better for themselves. It's easy for us to see how much better life could be, if only they did a, b, and c. While it would be nice if it were that easy to solve the problem, it is not the way it works in the real world. There is an infinite number of outcomes that will be the result of any given person, in any given circumstance, acting in any number of ways. Is it luck? Fate? Hard work? IMHO, there are so many variables and most likely it is a combination of all of these things.

when I mentioned way above about the town in PA that had lost all its jobs, I thought "heck, they need to move to Texas!" jobs galore there.. easy to say, very hard to do, no car, old car, older age, family.. moving from China to the US is leaving it all behind.. moving from PA to TX is also leaving it all behind, some people are just not suited to picking up an moving, fear, money, etc.

I think it's our job as Americans to help our fellow americans, that means spending money to train, and on education.

Many of the illegals in Texas come here and mow lawns, clean houses, start bodegas. I always hope for a better America.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I do not believe that being poor is something for which one needs to be excused. It is a condition into which one is thrust by circumstances he cannot control. He does not ask to be excused for being born in Africa or being born in a war-ravaged country, after all. I find this statement outrageous.

AGBF

I was referring to the poors here in the U.S. not the rest of the world.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I think it's our job as Americans to help our fellow americans, that means spending money to train, and on education.

Agree 100%, but how can we convince young kids not to drop out of school?

 

[Arkteia]

Of course the rich must help the poor, but don't forget that welfare does not help getting someone out of poverty. A good education follow by finding a good job is the key.

Do you remember riots in West Baltimore? When people burned a mall and some other buildings in own city?

Baltimore is a good example. The grandparents of these kids who rioted had jobs. Blue-collar jobs in the steel mills. Then the mills got shut down in the 80-es, we did not need steel any longer. And the parents of these kids, already, got on welfare. Did they want to? No. But all jobs were around John Hopkins, high-tech...
So this is the third generation of unemployment. There are attempts to restore Baltimore by bringing in ...more high-tech jobs. For which these people will not qualify.

Hopelessness. This is what is killing these people. How can we speak of a better education if even free meals program at schools is going to be cut? And tell me how someone with average IQ fit for a blue-collar job is going to find it, when all blue-collar jobs are gone?

 

[Arkteia]

P.S. To see "two Americas", you do not need to drive through the country, just go to Detroit. A beautiful downtown, ten minutes away from it the place looks horrible. This is what we are turning into, the blue-collars who lost their jobs and the IT sector still having them. They dwindle in IT sector, too.

 

[Arkteia]

I was referring to the poors here in the U.S. not the rest of the world.

Actually this won't help because they will say there will be no jobs for them. I'd rather go the opposite way. When I was young, in the Soviet Union, there were "Olympics" in math, chemistry, etc. And the winners would be brought to Moscow, to boarding schools, and get educated there. The idea was, some kid in Siberia may not even know how smart he is, but let us handpick the smartest ones for the thinking elite...
This is how my husband won admission to such a school. And I, to my greatest surprise, won exams to a chemistry school, I hated chemistry.
What I think is that education is costly, and good schools exist in areas with high rent, etc. And I see how much parents are investing into schools, tutors, classes. And maybe there is a kid in bad area of Detroit who has no clue that he is smarter. Let us handpick the smartest ones, so that not all admissions to Harvard would be secured by rich parents.