Allegations against Harvey Weinstein

[Bonfire]

It seems that you have carefully worded these women's jobs as "accepting a payoff," by doing so, you participate in victim blaming and you support the rapists....even when you wrap your words in "absolutely these rapists are terrible."

You are not supporting all women if you think it is ok to hold the women of Hollywood to some unrealistic standard. If you want to enact change, do it. Do it at your work place. Raise good boys. Raise a bad ass for a daughter. But most of all, stop blaming ALL sexual assault victims for being assaulted and for how they handle their assaults after the fact. This is the biggest problem that keeps sexual assault victims from coming forward. Don't you see? Victim blaming and lack of support.

When a person is sexually assaulted, immediately, their psychology is changed. Immediately, they feel responsible, worthless, and POWERLESS, among other things. The act of sexual assault alone does this to a person.

Then you are asking this person who has gone through such a horrific trauma to somehow stand up for themselves against...

The whole world? Everyone.. Everyone who is going to accuse them of being money hungry, liars, power hungry, sluts, etc? You are asking them to do this on the public stage.

All while they are just trying to heal from being traumatized in one of the worst possible ways.

They are only women. Trauma is personal. People will react to trauma in many different ways. Those women don't owe anyone a single thing.

Negative. I’m not victim blaming. Far from it. You can’t twist my words on this. You have no idea my past experience. Please do try to understand what others are saying and not read something else or twist to your point of view. Maybe go back and re-read what I wrote. We are all on the same side here.

 

[canuk-gal]

Absolutely they were dehumanized by their abuser. Absolutely they are being preyed upon by men in power. This abuse goes back decades and decades (read Shirley Temple Blacks’ book. Damn she was just a child!)
Most of these women accepted the payoff, whether it was money or career advancement (I'm just referring to Hollywood now obviously ). It grew so big and commonplace in the industry, because of the sexism and power play for one, but how many of these women (not blaming) left or walked away? Silence is a scourge. This crap is so prevalent throughout our society and it has. to. stop. but not if we stay silent or take the payoff! We can’t be complicit in our own abuse anymore! And most importantly, we need to support each other as women, all women. If we can’t how can we expect to enact change?

Silence yes, but fear is the bigger issue. Fear is horribly debilitating and pervasive and quite simply, forever undermines your own personal power and security. All of the victims are AFRAID.

 

[House Cat]

Negative. I’m not victim blaming. Far from it. You can’t twist my words on this. You have no idea my past experience. Please do try to understand what others are saying and not read something else or twist to your point of view. Maybe go back and re-read what I wrote. We are all on the same side here.

I will re-read. Understand, I am not trying to twist what you are saying. I am just not sure if you are aware of how you are coming off? Can you please read what you wrote from my point of view as well. This way, if we are both on the same side, we can take a look at this together.

 

[Bonfire]

Silence yes, but fear is the bigger issue. Fear is horribly debilitating and pervasive and quite simply, forever undermines your own personal power and security. All of the victims are AFRAID.

Understood. I’ve been there. That’s why we need to empower EACH OTHER! Stand up together. Give voice to the fearful . That is what is happening with these women now. And look at the power it has avalanched down on Hollywood.

 

[House Cat]

Never mind...

@Bonfire I did misread a line of your post. I'm sorry.

 

[Bonfire]

I will re-read. Understand, I am not trying to twist what you are saying. I am just not sure if you are aware of how you are coming off? Can you please read what you wrote from my point of view as well. This way, if we are both on the same side, we can take a look at this together.

Perhaps you are having trouble with my use of the word “complicity.”
Fear is a tactic all preditory abusers use. Striking fear into the young child by the Priest, or Scout Leader, or the powerful executive who threatens to fire you. Power VS vulnerable. Fear is debilitating and very destructive. I understand it well. Speaking up in the safety of others like yourself empowers. I will never again play into the hands of an abuser! I will not help protect him by staying quiet. I will NOT be complicit.

 

[canuk-gal]

Understood. I’ve been there. That’s why we need to empower EACH OTHER! Stand up together. Give voice to the fearful . That is what is happening with these women now. And look at the power it has avalanched down on Hollywood.

We can but we don't. Or won't. Case in point: the backlash about what Mayim wrote. Differing perspective is (somehow) automatically divisive. It is as if Weisntein is in the old boys club and she is in the mean girls club. We can't come together cuz we are always tripping over ourselves.

 

[Bonfire]

Never mind...

@Bonfire I did misread a line of your post. I'm sorry.

Thanks HC. Apology excepted

 

[PintoBean]

I hope that the future normalizes getting therapy to the extent that victims of abuse are not ashamed to go get help and abusers (who sometimes are part of a cycle of abuse) go get help.

 

[Matata]

I love the #metoo hashtag Matata but felt really sad at the same time because my story is too much for people to want to hear. I could'nt participate.

I want to say that I admire your bravery and thank you.

But I hope that maybe you can extend some understanding to some of the women who have maybe endured other acts that might have affected them in different ways. I can tell you that the way my rape has affected me makes no logical sense whatsoever. For example, when I saw the rapist last year, 20 years after the fact, he's a tiny twit of a man, but I was afraid for my life. It didn't matter that I had my husband, a 6'3" Marine sitting right next to me. My therapist says once someone does something like that to you, they make you feel powerless.

I think we confuse Hollywood money or fame for a sense of power or self esteem but I'm not convinced that the people of Hollywood are pillars of either. I'm not convinced that these women, after sustaining an attack felt strong enough to publicly fight and prove she had been raped or assaulted.

I'll never know what makes up a total person. It's always that ongoing argument of "well if I can do it, so can they." I just know that there had to be something inside of you that gave you the strength and the fire to stand up for yourself and others. For other people, that idea is terrifying. Actually, we are learning, that for most, that idea is terrifying. Since nothing is changing about the men, maybe it's time we create a safer environment for the victims to come forward no matter what their circumstances or timeline.

I have the utmost empathy and understanding for men and women who have endured sexual harassment. As you've said, the stories are not exactly the same and individual reactions to these assaults are deeply personal to the individual. But I ask that you and others also recognize that as each story and each person's reaction to their assault differ, so too do the tools an individual needs to cope with and work through their situation. Some people need a soft approach and safe space. Others, and I'm one, come out spitting and fighting. Victims need champions of both types depending on their individual circumstances. Trying to silence the voices of those who take a different path is not the answer. Together change can happen for all, apart change happens only for a few. I hope with all my being that the Weinstein case is the tipping point for magnitude change in our culture.

 

[nala]

Why I’m confused: Hollywood has always been viewed as such. Movies (think Lifetime) and tv shows like 90210 have always made references to this ugly side of Hollywood. So I’m confused bc at an early age, I knew that many famous people—not just women—achieved fame in exchange for surviving this culture. Were all these celebrities so naive? Why are we only hearing from famous women and men? Is it bc those women and men who didn’t stay silent about this harassment never amounted to much in Hollywood?
And before I’m called a victim blamer, please consider that as a feminist, i fully own my actions. I own my choices. Did these celebrities have a choice? Pardon my ignorance, but I haven’t read all of the experiences coming forward. Were these celebrities being raped? Or were they being given the choice to be famous in exchange for sexual favors? I think therein lies a difference.
To emphasize my point, I did read the account of one actress who said she walked away and agreed not disclose the incident. She also said her agents made sure not to meet Weinstein in his hotel room. They were preemptive. I don’t even remember her name, which makes me wonder why that is. Could it be she isn’t really as famous as those who did agree to this exchange?
I don’t agree with a lot of what happens in Hollywood. But to feign surprise at this juncture, really? I mean, Hollywood had been forcing gay actors to pretend to be married for decades. The list of Hollywood’s skewed morals goes on and on. And to a certain extent, we the audience are just as guilty for allowing Hollywood to set ideals and trends, etc. I also realize most celebrities don’t represent the best talent out there. They just represent the people who were willing to compromise their values for fame. Kind of like Kim Kardashian.

 

[partgypsy]

From what I heard, he did have consensual relations with actresses. But there were many many interactions that were not consensual, with other people participating. It sounds like the modus operandi, was intially scheduled meeting with female actor during day, at office, which at last minute would be changed to later in day, and or at a hotel, which he said was OK because he worked out of the hotel. And often there would be someone from the office accompany the actress to the "appointment" so it looked like it was a legitimate meeting, who would then be dismissed by Harvey Weinstein and the person would be there by themselves, alone with him. Maybe some had an inkling, but it sounds like many many did not know what was going on, and appeared traumatised when they were leaving. He really appeared to have it down to a science, including the incentives (making it drilled into the actresses that they HAD to thank him at the Academy Awards, aka you owe me) to references to how he could basically ruin people's careers or make them a nonstarter as well (which I'm sure no doubt happened).

 

[House Cat]

I have the utmost empathy and understanding for men and women who have endured sexual harassment. As you've said, the stories are not exactly the same and individual reactions to these assaults are deeply personal to the individual. But I ask that you and others also recognize that as each story and each person's reaction to their assault differ, so too do the tools an individual needs to cope with and work through their situation. Some people need a soft approach and safe space. Others, and I'm one, come out spitting and fighting. Victims need champions of both types depending on their individual circumstances. Trying to silence the voices of those who take a different path is not the answer. Together change can happen for all, apart change happens only for a few. I hope with all my being that the Weinstein case is the tipping point for magnitude change in our culture.

What a strange interpretation of my posts. There was never any intention of silencing you. I think I actually thanked you for your bravery.

 

[PintoBean]

Do you guys remember the Megan Fox Michael Bay feud?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...chael-Bays-sexy-demands-set-Transformers.html

 

[Matata]

What a strange interpretation of my posts. There was never any intention of silencing you.

I wasn't addressing you personally with that comment. It was a general observation relating to others' comments about those with differing perspectives such as Mayim Bialik for example.

 

[nala]

To add to my very unpopular post: I guess that I’ve always seen Hollywood kind of like the Mafia. I would never join the mafia and expect to change its culture.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Dialogue is good, but I find a few things really really concerning.

I find it concerning that the minute a topic like this comes up it is followed with questions that never seem to be "How can we change and remove the likelihood of someone assaulting someone. What is broken within the perpetrator." Instead the questions which arise are:
"Well were some of those women offering sexual favors? That's important (no, it isn't). How can women change their behavior to stave off assault? (The onus is not on women to modify their behavior to keep anyone from assaulting them). Does it really count as assault if A-B-C didn't happen? (if unwanted behavior occurred and a boundary was crossed, then no matter what, YES).

There is a time and place for those questions I guess, but not when survivors are stepping forward.

 

[lovedogs]

Dialogue is good, but I find a few things really really concerning.

I find it concerning that the minute a topic like this comes up it is followed with questions that never seem to be "How can we change and remove the likelihood of someone assaulting someone. What is broken within the perpetrator." Instead the questions which arise are:
"Well were some of those women offering sexual favors? That's important (no, it isn't). How can women change their behavior to stave off assault? (The onus is not on women to modify their behavior to keep anyone from assaulting them). Does it really count as assault if A-B-C didn't happen? (if unwanted behavior occurred and a boundary was crossed, then no matter what, YES).

There is a time and place for those questions I guess, but not when survivors are stepping forward.

THIS.

Also, I love the *idea* of things like the "me too" FB campaign, but in practice it just sucks for a lot of people (myself included) who can't log on Facebook or read it without feeling nauseous or scared. Also (and I realize that this might be controversial or seen as rude), there's something upsetting about seeing people posting "me too" and then telling stories of penis jokes being told in front of them. Does that suck? Yes. Is that appropriate at work? HELL NO. But for someone who's been violently raped, hit by exes, and date raped by someone I trusted, it makes me feel something I can't quite identify. Like that the "movement" doesnt apply to me? Or like my experience is going to be lumped into "shitty but not PTSD-enducing"? I realize this is ranty and not clear, but I don't really have words for it. Just a lot of feelings that have left me in tears the past few nights.

 

[Matata]

Saw this on FB the other day. He makes a good point. Language and narrative are two things that also need to change.

 

[nala]

Dialogue is good, but I find a few things really really concerning.

I find it concerning that the minute a topic like this comes up it is followed with questions that never seem to be "How can we change and remove the likelihood of someone assaulting someone. What is broken within the perpetrator." Instead the questions which arise are:
"Well were some of those women offering sexual favors? That's important (no, it isn't). How can women change their behavior to stave off assault? (The onus is not on women to modify their behavior to keep anyone from assaulting them). Does it really count as assault if A-B-C didn't happen? (if unwanted behavior occurred and a boundary was crossed, then no matter what, YES).

There is a time and place for those questions I guess, but not when survivors are stepping forward.

There are laws to protect us from sexual harassment. But in certain industries like Hollywood or in a gang, for example, there is an unwritten law that many succumb to and will not resort to the law. Also, I haven’t read the details so idk what exactly he did. But it is important to distinguish between assault and propositioning.

 

[Matata]

Like that the "movement" doesnt apply to me? Or like my experience is going to be lumped into "shitty but not PTSD-enducing"? I realize this is ranty and not clear, but I don't really have words for it. Just a lot of feelings that have left me in tears the past few nights.

Gentle hugs. I saw a FB post by someone who works with rape survivors and she said that in regards to the #MeToo movement, just because some one doesn't post doesn't mean it didn't happen to them and that women do not owe us their stories. As far as what is and isn't PTSD-inducing, I believe any trauma that causes a person to feel scared and violates their sense of trust and safety is PTSD inducing. It's what you feel that matters, not what others think.

 

[OreoRosies86]

THIS.

Also, I love the *idea* of things like the "me too" FB campaign, but in practice it just sucks for a lot of people (myself included) who can't log on Facebook or read it without feeling nauseous or scared. Also (and I realize that this might be controversial or seen as rude), there's something upsetting about seeing people posting "me too" and then telling stories of penis jokes being told in front of them. Does that suck? Yes. Is that appropriate at work? HELL NO. But for someone who's been violently raped, hit by exes, and date raped by someone I trusted, it makes me feel something I can't quite identify. Like that the "movement" doesnt apply to me? Or like my experience is going to be lumped into "shitty but not PTSD-enducing"? I realize this is ranty and not clear, but I don't really have words for it. Just a lot of feelings that have left me in tears the past few nights.

Love to you. Agreed. Thats why I wouldn't reduce my experience to a hashtag (personally) because really, I'm a very open person but... my friends and family know that if they wanted to have a dialogue about what happened to me or something that happened to them, I'd be there any time of day or night with cookies and tissues. I don't feel the need to explore that on social media because I know my experience as a person and as a woman. I do think the questions men have been prompted to look more closely at has been valuable though. I'd like to see women continue to remove themselves from the rape culture mentality as well.

 

[OreoRosies86]

There are laws to protect us from sexual harassment. But in certain industries like Hollywood or in a gang, for example, there is an unwritten law that many succumb to and will not resort to the law. Also, I haven’t read the details so idk what exactly he did. But it is important to distinguish between assault and propositioning.

It's actually not important to do that when survivors are stepping forward. Really. Why does it matter if an actress slept with someone if 20 behind her are speaking their truth about being assaulted. I don't know about you, but if the "unwritten laws" mean rape and sexual exploitation then I want the unofficial writers of those laws publicly dragged. Because you're essentially saying you wouldn't be a film actress if you knew there was a chance you'd be sexually assaulted because "that's just how it is." So you're asking women to modify their lives, goals, expectations, etc. to prevent being assaulted instead of holding the actual predators 1000% responsible.

 

[lovedogs]

Gentle hugs. I saw a FB post by someone who works with rape survivors and she said that in regards to the #MeToo movement, just because some one doesn't post doesn't mean it didn't happen to them and that women do not owe us their stories. As far as what is and isn't PTSD-inducing, I believe any trauma that causes a person to feel scared and violates their sense of trust and safety is PTSD inducing. It's what you feel that matters, not what others think.

You are totally right on all of this. Maybe that's what I'm feeling: a pressure to share because others are doing it, or somehow a pressure to "justify" what happened. Or anger that any women has to justify anything that's happened. And you are spot-on that anything that makes us feel scared or violated is PTSD-incuding. I think part of what makes me so mad is that people share stories about a sexual joke at work and the reaction is often "so what?" And then somehow people assume that women are "too sensitive". The entire thing just infuriates me. It's the same problem I had in college when "Take Back the Night" was happening. The idea is great, but the event itself was really hard for me (and I assume others). All the posters everywhere, and the attention of it just made me feel raw and upset, and I needed to be away the day of. It feels a lot like that.

 

[nala]

It's actually not important to do that when survivors are stepping forward. Really. Why does it matter if an actress slept with someone if 20 behind her are speaking their truth about being assaulted. I don't know about you, but if the "unwritten laws" mean rape and sexual exploitation then I want the unofficial writers of those laws publicly dragged.

I agree. That’s why I wouldn’t join a gang. Or be part of Hollywood. And labeling all celebrities coming forward as survivors is offensive to the real survivors. So the distinction needs to be made

 

[nala]

It's actually not important to do that when survivors are stepping forward. Really. Why does it matter if an actress slept with someone if 20 behind her are speaking their truth about being assaulted. I don't know about you, but if the "unwritten laws" mean rape and sexual exploitation then I want the unofficial writers of those laws publicly dragged. Because you're essentially saying you wouldn't be a film actress if you knew there was a chance you'd be sexually assaulted because "that's just how it is." So you're asking women to modify their lives, goals, expectations, etc. to prevent being assaulted instead of holding the actual predators 1000% responsible.[/



My reply
Why is it only about women? This happens to men too.
And yes. That’s how it is. Hollywood is fake. They don’t aim for noble endeavors. Neither does the mafia. Both are enterprises. Only by appealing to the law can people make changes. But as you see, very few do. That doesn’t mean that I agree with them for not appealing to the laws. By not appealing to the laws, the cycle continues. That’s all I’m saying. It is food for thought. And if you recall, I said that we are all guilty for giving Hollywood so much power to begin with.[

 

[OreoRosies86]

I agree. That’s why I wouldn’t join a gang. Or be part of Hollywood. And labeling all celebrities coming forward as survivors is offensive to the real survivors. So the distinction needs to be made

Your responses are so fast that it leads me to believe you're choosing not to process and sit on my words for a minute. Determining who was on the "casting couch" has literally nothing to do with someone coming forward and saying "Hey this happened to me and it wasn't ok." Zip. Zero.

The responsibility is not on women to avoid pursuing a career in film because they might be assaulted or exploited. That's ridiculous.

 

[lovedogs]

I agree. That’s why I wouldn’t join a gang. Or be part of Hollywood. And labeling all celebrities coming forward as survivors is offensive to the real survivors. So the distinction needs to be made

I don't see why you say this. Why are they somehow not "real" survivors?

 

[OreoRosies86]

Of course it happens to men too, I never said it didn't so please don't try to go there with me. I was in my feelings a lot about this the past few days. Having a conversation about exploitation and assault on women and young girls does not in any way diminish a man's experience. But to me trying to say "But it happens to men too" right at this moment is like saying "But all lives matter." Yes of course they do, but right now women are having a moment to talk about this.

 

[nala]

I don't see why you say this. Why are they somehow not "real" survivors?

Being a victim of rape or assault is different than consenting or listening to the wold penis, IMO.