AGS-graded WF ACA - color grading

[SimoneDi]

Another thing that I was going to mention is that if a person/appraiser has not played with many diamonds of lower/different colors,it is very easy to overestimate color. Additionally, color appraisals should really only be done with a master set and even then they are not done in strict lab environments. I remember years ago when I first became fascinated with diamonds, I used to assume that diamonds have more color than they actually do. I thought that my friend’s D color diamond was an F, for example. I guess what I am trying to convey is that I trust GIA/AGS much more than any appraiser.

 

[ChristineRose]

Mochiko, you seem to be giving this appraiser too much weight. AGS is more credible than any appraiser, and your appraiser graded the stone mounted. As Paul pointed out, a grading on a mounted stone is poor quality, so you've got a less qualified person doing an incomplete appraisal. And yes, she had a motive to tell you your stone was less than perfect so that she could sell you another one.

Your stone is an I VS2. There is no reason for you to upgrade to another I VS2.

 

[mochiko42]

Another thing that I was going to mention is that if a person/appraiser has not played with many diamonds of lower/different colors,it is very easy to overestimate color. Additionally, color appraisals should really only be done with a master set and even then they are not done in strict lab environments. I remember years ago when I first became fascinated with diamonds, I used to assume that diamonds have more color than they actually do. I thought that my friend’s D color diamond was an F, for example. I guess what I am trying to convey is that I trust GIA/AGS much more than any appraiser.

That is very interesting to learn. I don't have that much preference for higher colors myself, but I can recognize the market prices are very different for e.g. a D vs an F. Anecdotally, I do feel that the current I VS2 ACA is both warmer and less clean than the other I VS2 ACA I previously owned (though I did not have the two stones in hand to compare, the current ACA is not eye clean for me while the previous one was; at the time I thought it was a low 'I' and low 'VS2' due to larger size of this stone rather than a 'softer' AGS grading but now I am unsure). I felt that way even before the appraisal and it was part of the reason I got the appraisal (since I was curious).

I was planning to trade in later, in a few years maybe, and appreciate that the generous trade-in/upgrade policy is part of the reason for the significant WF pricing premium. I am thankful that WF does offer very good service in that regard.

I don't think I will want to spend any more money to have this stone regraded or assessed but when I (eventually) upgrade, in order to have peace of mind I think I would want to ask WF if they can also have the upgrade stone graded by GIA in addition to AGS.

 

[SimoneDi]

That is very interesting to learn. I don't have that much preference for higher colors myself, but I can recognize the market prices are very different for e.g. a D vs an F. Anecdotally, I do feel that the current I VS2 ACA is both warmer and less clean than the other I VS2 ACA I previously owned (though I did not have the two stones in hand to compare, the current ACA is not eye clean for me while the previous one was; at the time I thought it was a low 'I' and low 'VS2' due to larger size of this stone rather than a 'softer' AGS grading but now I am unsure). I felt that way even before the appraisal and it was part of the reason I got the appraisal (since I was curious).

I was planning to trade in later, in a few years maybe, and appreciate that the generous trade-in/upgrade policy is part of the reason for the significant WF pricing premium. I am thankful that WF does offer very good service in that regard.

I don't think I will want to spend any more money to have this stone regraded or assessed but when I (eventually) upgrade, in order to have peace of mind I think I would want to ask WF if they can also have the upgrade stone graded by GIA in addition to AGS.

I think that you have a good plan in place! Wait a few years and once you are ready to upgrade, look at the options available then. Perhaps going up to an H will be a good compromise that will give you a nice color upgrade and still stay in the near colorless range. My first diamond was an H (high H) - I loved the color (or lack of such) very much! I found that it looked very similar to my friends’ colorness stones. I then moved through an J, a K, another J and now an I. (All AGS btw) The I is still very “white facing”, but there is certainly some warmth to it. My K colored stone for example was appraised as an L/M before getting it certified. I knew that the appraiser was incorrect as the K was very close in color to my then J stone. There will always be “high” and “low” grades, they are especially more apparent as diamonds move down the color chart. Nonetheless, I am certain that your ACA “I” is no where close to a “K with brown undertone”. Enjoy your beauty!

P.S. what color are the awesome diamonds that Yoram cut for your seven stone?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Does this appraiser happen to also sell diamonds? (Sorry if someone has already asked this.) The one big red flag to me (aside from the questionable color rating) was her valuing it so extremely low.

I've never had any of my ACAs appraised, but I do always ask WF to compare the color of the stones I am considering to others to be sure I get stones in the mid to high end of the color grade. They are awesome about doing that if you ask! I've had pics where I could visibly see one stone out of a few that had greater tint. Every color is a range, so I prefer not to be at the low end since the borderline ones are most likely to get a lower grade by an alternate grader/appraiser.

I will say, though, I have never had a single thought that your diamond could be a K in any of your pictures.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Hi Paul, I appreciate your professional input. Could I ask why you think that? I sincerely want to learn and understand more. Also, the appraiser mentioned the limitations of her assessment was based on the mounted ring and that the assessment might change if the stone were loose. Given this disclaimer that was given to me both in person and in the written appraisal, do you believe it was inaccurate for the appraiser to give the color grade (and brown) estimate, and why? It would be very educational if I could understand why.

Hello Mochiko,

Allow me to answer your question from my own professional experience. I want to avoid answering from the point of view of a grading-lab, as that is different.

So, personally, me and my team, we never grade diamonds while set. Even if we could come close, we feel that the value-difference of even one grade is huge.

Furthermore, when we assess loose diamonds, especially the color, we will only do it in our own office, under our own lamp and with our own loupe and microscope. The likelihood of us being wrong in another environment is too high.

As far as a faint brown tint goes, I really cannot imagine anyone discerning such nuance in a set diamond. That statement is an enormous red flag.

In essence, if this person (I truly have difficulty using the word 'appraiser' in this situation) states that her assessment should be taken with a grain of salt, given that her inspection was on the mounted stone, she should also state how far off she could be. In my opinion, it could easily be three color-grades and two clarity-grades, if not more.

The fact that she states a specific color and clarity, adding an (in my opinion) impossible to detect faint brown nuance on the color, and also adding a further detail on the clarity (declaring it borderline VS2-SI1), leads to my conclusion that she is a fraud, in no way a trustworthy appraiser.

Further evidence is in the appraised value. Let's assume for a second that she truly thinks that she is capable of assessing this mounted diamond as K-SI1, as opposed to the independently lab-graded I-VS2. In other words, let's assume that she believes her own so-called expertise. Well, in my world, a K-SI1 is about 70% of the value of an I-VS2, the exact percentage differing a bit according to the weight-category. Instead, this person however manages to value it at around 30% of what you paid. Even if she does not understand or assess cut-quality, it still means that she valued it at 50% of her own assessment of color and clarity.

Please, please, do not take my post here as just one other opinion. I have very little free time in my day, and I am now spending very precious time on writing this. My only motivation to do this is because dishonesty and fraudulent activities anger me, and I do wish to dedicate time fighting it.

The summary is very clear:
- Technically, there is no way this person could have made the very detailed assessment she apparently did,
- Even if she believes her own nonsense (which many people unfortunately do ), her value-calculation is only 50% of what she should arrived at, believing that nonsense.

My end-conclusion is clear: She is a fraud.

Live long,

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

That is very interesting to learn. I don't have that much preference for higher colors myself, but I can recognize the market prices are very different for e.g. a D vs an F. Anecdotally, I do feel that the current I VS2 ACA is both warmer and less clean than the other I VS2 ACA I previously owned (though I did not have the two stones in hand to compare, the current ACA is not eye clean for me while the previous one was; at the time I thought it was a low 'I' and low 'VS2' due to larger size of this stone rather than a 'softer' AGS grading but now I am unsure). I felt that way even before the appraisal and it was part of the reason I got the appraisal (since I was curious).

I am curious as to whether you can see inclusions in the VS2s that you own/ed?

I have toyed with the idea getting an SI1 in the past (for a pendant) to save money but I am very much hawk eyed and spotted every inclusion in all the SI1s shown to me. In the end I went with a VS1 because I was worried VS2 would be too borderline and I'd see it one day (weirdo that I am I like to stare at my stones to see if I can see the inclusions). Your comment peaked my interest as I am once again tempted to go to a lower clarity but am always worried that if I see something it will drive me insane (my current ring stone is an overkill IF).

Lol I tolerate inclusions (to a certain extent) in certain coloured stones though so go figure! But in diamonds if I see it then I can't unsee it! It's all I'll look at.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Mochiko,
You do bring up a very important discussion that many visitors to the forum, especially those new to diamonds and the jewelry industry, can benefit from. We have our weekly full staff meeting this morning so I am pressed for time, but I will have more to say about jewelry appraisals and lab grading later in the day.

Let me drop this visual on y'all. I think it has direct relevance here. Think of the 'cone of uncertainty'. You know, like those predictive models that you see weather forecasters use when big storms are approaching. At the distant end the cone is very large because there are many variables that cannot be accurately predicted and will change over time as the storm approaches. The cone narrows as it approaches the current event on the ground (or at sea). This analogy has the lab at the ground zero and the appraisal world at some point out away. The variables at play are things like experience and skill of the appraiser, equipment, lighting environment, whether they have master sets and whether those masters are properly vetted, and the extent to which they do or do not have conflicts of interest in their assessment.

Appraisers have a very important role in the industry and there are many excellent and ethical ones practicing. But the value they bring is providing documentation for insurance and to fill in information that may not be available, to the best of their ability and in accordance with their limitations, and to help a consumer fully understand their piece. It is not the role of the appraiser, in my opininion, to 'outgrade' a top tier lab. They are equipped to verify that a diamond is the one in a given report and to ensure that the diamond is in the same condition as reported in the lab document, and then of course to appraise it. They may be able to add additional information that may not be contained in a report such as providing additional cut analysis.

Hopefully, some of the fine appraisers who contribute here will also chime in. It is a valuable discussion and I thank you for bringing it forward.

 

[CareBear]

I'm also one to fret a lot about the "true" color of my stone and if I "overpaid" for a stone that is actually a lower color. DH always reminds me "there's no need to worry because WF will always apply the price you paid when you trade-in their stone, regardless of the "true" color". That always calms me down.

 

[Rhino]

Just my .02c. I've seen both GIA and AGS loosely grade from time to time. AGS seems to get picked on moreso but in all frankness I'd say it's pretty level between the two labs and I'd say GIA probably moreso but that's because of the volume difference between the two. I have seen AGS tighten their ship so to speak but I am intimately familiar with their consistency as one who vets their products. Paul, Bryan, GOG and companies that have gained a strong reputation online for diamond vetting, and particularly AGS graded diamonds gained their rep by disclosing and openly showing their goods and screening out the ones they saw were loosely graded. I'd take their vetting with an AGS Report over the opinion of an appraiser who hasn't even seen the diamond loose any day of the week.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Some may be surprised to learn that diamond and jewelry appraisals are not regulated. That is, anyone can render an opinion and charge a fee. There are no credentials required, and no safeguards in place to prevent conflict of interest.

Therefore, it is up to the consumer to determine the value of the opinion they are purchasing, and what should and should not be done with the results. And that is sometimes difficult to determine, especially for someone new to the industry.

So the trick is to understand what you aim to accomplish by taking a piece to an appraiser in the first place. For most people, it is for the purpose verification and for obtaining an insurance policy. That process is a fairly straight forward. However, there are still qualitative differences between appraisals. Consultation appraisals where the consumer is seeking information and advice about a purchase or a prospective purchase is another level altogether. In that case qualifications, experience, and reputation of the appraiser are absolutely paramount.

Even in the best case, and thinking about the ‘cone of uncertainty’ once again, there may be certain aspects of any opinion rendered that have greater margin for error, even if the overall work is sound.
Color grading is probably the most nuanced of all grading aspects, and requires the most training and experience. It also requires specific equipment, including vetted master stones of appropriate size.

Grading diamonds to a specific grade, without all the proper tools and training, and especially if they are set in jewelry, is like firing a rifle at a target and trying to hit a bulls-eye without being allowed to look through the gun sights. It’s “shooting from the hip” so to speak.

 

[Gussie]

It is my understanding that labs assess diamond color by comparing stones to a master set. Is there not a better way that takes the human element out of it? Measuring the transmission of incident light should yield a range of wavelengths that determine color.

I have been afraid to ask this since I started learning about diamonds on pricescope for fear of sounding dumb, lol. But this is a question I have had for a long time.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

It is my understanding that labs assess diamond color by comparing stones to a master set. Is there not a better way that takes the human element out of it? Measuring the transmission of incident light should yield a range of wavelengths that determine color.

I have been afraid to ask this since I started learning about diamonds on pricescope for fear of sounding dumb, lol. But this is a question I have had for a long time.

It's actually a VERY good question. Colorimeters have been in use for many years. Many of the top appraisers actually use them in their practice. The problem is, they are not as reliable as human grading with master stones. AGSL used to use them to get a baseline at the front end of their grading process, although actual color grading was always done by human graders. They ultimately found that it did not really add value and discontinued the practice in recent years.

GIA has developed their own proprietary color grading machines and as of a year or so ago they were doing color grading by machine alone on a certain subset of their diamonds.

Because diamonds can have complicating issues such as fluorescence and unusual color components, it may never be possible to develop a machine that will grade as accurately as the human eye (which is a pretty damn impressive instrument!).

 

[Karl_K]

Others have covered the details of the labs and appraisers really well.
I would like to say a few things about machine grading.
For a subset of stones that varies by the machines used the machines can be more consistent than humans.
They have been used in other fields for decades.
The hard part is aligning the machine grading with the existing system and most of all making the machine able to flag stones it can not grade with acceptable consistency.
It takes a huge volume of stones to do that and it provides a huge competitive advantage to keep that data propitiatory so outside the huge labs I do not see it gaining traction soon.

 

[pyramid]

Here is one previous Pricescoper with the same question and all the steps she took to get things resolved for her and also shows all the help Whiteflash gave her and others like Dave Atlas.

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...sed-today-and-was-told-that-it-was-a-k.55486/

 

[mochiko42]

Thank you all who've commented here for your input and advice. I appreciate your thoughts! This has been a very enlightening discussion and I feel much better informed now and will be prepared for when/if I decide to upgrade or buy another diamond.

Especially thank you to @Paul-Antwerp - having the detailed 'technical' reasoning & explanation behind your opinion to disregard the appraisal report has been very helpful to me to understand better & in making a more informed decision on how much weight to give the appraisal. It has helped to reassure me, in particular with regards to the question of the 'faint brown' description. Perhaps I am naive, but I had wanted to give this 'appraiser' the benefit of the doubt. I guess it was maybe human nature for me to want to assume that someone in a 'professional role' should have the expertise (such as when we see a doctor we want to assume that they have medical expertise that we don't), which made it difficult to judge how much weight to give this person's opinion, or how much weight to give opinions given in an online forum. It was a little alarming to receive an opinion like that (!) on my diamond. Obviously, I had some questions about the appraisal report otherwise I wouldn't have posted about it on PS, but figuring out the nuances and understanding why the information is valid or not-- it's not an easy thing for a layperson/consumer to evaluate the value of all the different information /opinion received! I appreciate your taking the time to provide the detailed explanation that you did. I appreciate that PS provides this forum for consumers to receive additional professional advice and access this wealth of knowledge shared by trade members. It's especially difficult in this part of the world where there is not that much in-depth knowledge or education, even in the trade, it seems. I hope this post has been educational for others, not just me.

Thank you also to other trade members @Texas Leaguer @Rhino @Karl_K , the issue of the 'human element' in grading is interesting. I had previously read a little about colorimeters but had believed the technology was not widely used.

@SimoneDi According to the info I received from Caysie, the OECs that Yoram cut for my 7 stone are estimated as G-H/VS. They're too small to be submitted to GIA/AGS so I don't know for sure what they would grade as. They look pretty nice and white to my eye, though.

@mellowyellowgirl. Let me see.. I have previously had AGS VS1, VS2, SI1 and SI2 (all rounds, some H&A, others were OEC). I could not see inclusions in VS1. I could see them in SI1 and SI2 easily. For the two VS2s I've owned, in one I could not see any inclusions at all (it was clean under the table according to the plot so I believe it was a high VS2), in the second VS2 I can see the inclusion under the table at a viewing distance of 12 inches and in SOME lighting, not all. Also I had the chance to inspect a GIA VVS2 princess cut belonging to a relative and it was clean for me. My personal inclination would be that AGS VS1 is my sweet spot or if I'm lucky a high VS2 would work too. I am sensitive towards clarity more than color. It may be different in your case.

 

[mochiko42]

Here is one previous Pricescoper with the same question and all the steps she took to get things resolved for her and also shows all the help Whiteflash gave her and others like Dave Atlas.

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...sed-today-and-was-told-that-it-was-a-k.55486/

Thank you for sharing that thread. I'll have to read it in depth when I have more time (all 19 pages of it!), but it sounds very helpful!

 

[december-fire]

This has been a very informative thread!

I echo @mochiko42 's thanks to all the experts who have taken the time to share their valuable comments.

Much appreciated!

 

[SimoneDi]

@SimoneDi According to the info I received from Caysie, the OECs that Yoram cut for my 7 stone are estimated as G-H/VS. They're too small to be submitted to GIA/AGS so I don't know for sure what they would grade as. They look pretty nice and white to my eye, though.

I am sure that Yoram’s assessment of the diamond color is accurate. My point there was that I see no significant difference in color between your ACA and you new 7stone band. If your ACA was truly a “K”, you would absolutely see a difference even face up.

I second the thanks given to the professionals who contributed to their thread. It has been truly informative.

I hope that continue to enjoy your beautiful solitaire and move past this experience.

 

[vvvvv]

I just received my ACA .81ct F/SI1 today, the clarity has no problem at all, but I could notice the yellow hue once I unboxed the diamond.

And then I compared it with my another GIA graded F color diamond, I can say the ACA is definitely NOT F...maybe it's just me having color sensitive eyes

Top: ACA AGS-graded F color
Bottom: GIA-graded F color

 

[Kaycee2018]

I just received my ACA .81ct F/SI1 today, the clarity has no problem at all, but I could notice the yellow hue once I unboxed the diamond.

And then I compared it with my another GIA graded F color diamond, I can say the ACA is definitely NOT F...maybe it's just me having color sensitive eyes

Top: ACA AGS-graded F color
Bottom: GIA-graded F color

I can definitely see the tint. Hard to say based on a photo and with one being mounted and the other not, but the AGS looks more like a G-H.

 

[vvvvv]

I can definitely see the tint. Hard to say based on a photo and with one being mounted and the other not, but the AGS looks more like a G-H.

It raised my concern that an AGS graded F color, which is supposed to be in colourless range, already showed noticeable yellow hue, then does it mean even I upgrade the color among ACA line in future, it will still be a grade inferior to GIA? (i.e. an AGS E color looks like an GIA F, an AGS D is not necessarily colourless!?)

I truly like the WhiteFlash cut and have been considering to upgrade in the future, but now I am confused whether I should give up ACA and choose premium select line (GIA) for future upgrade because AGS graded color is not what I expected.

 

[La2020]

I just received my ACA .81ct F/SI1 today, the clarity has no problem at all, but I could notice the yellow hue once I unboxed the diamond.

And then I compared it with my another GIA graded F color diamond, I can say the ACA is definitely NOT F...maybe it's just me having color sensitive eyes

Top: ACA AGS-graded F color
Bottom: GIA-graded F color

I can clearly see the yellow tint.
The tint in my JA True Hearts H is not that obvious though.

 

[Dancing Fire]

GIA H on the left and AGS H on the right...

 

[Texas Leaguer]

It raised my concern that an AGS graded F color, which is supposed to be in colourless range, already showed noticeable yellow hue, then does it mean even I upgrade the color among ACA line in future, it will still be a grade inferior to GIA? (i.e. an AGS E color looks like an GIA F, an AGS D is not necessarily colourless!?)

I truly like the WhiteFlash cut and have been considering to upgrade in the future, but now I am confused whether I should give up ACA and choose premium select line (GIA) for future upgrade because AGS graded color is not what I expected.

@vvvvv ,
We are sorry to hear of your disappointment. You certainly have the option to return or exchange the stone with us.

Regarding color grading, because color grades are very small ranges on a continuum and because color calls are ultimately made by human graders at the labs, there is an inherent range of potential variance between the labs of one color grade plus or minus. However, there are many safeguards in place at AGSL to insure the most consistent and accurate grading possible, including the use of GIA master color sets. In the vast majority of cases the two labs agree, but one grade variances do occur between and even within labs because of the nature of color grading.

That said, we want you to be completely happy with your selection, and your Whiteflash diamond consultant will be happy to assist you in any way you would like.

There is more info on color grading at AGSL in this article:

https://www.whiteflash.com/diamond-education/ags-color-grading

 

[MamaBee]

I’m getting very nervous reading these comments about AGS. I just ordered an expensive F color ACA for my upgrade. I will be heartbroken if I see a tint in my F. I would even pay to have it additionally certified by GIA to make sure it really is an F. There’s too many stories of this happening to ignore.
@vvvvv I can definitely see the tint in your AGS F compared to your GIA graded F.
I just edited this to say I contacted Becca at WF to ask her to send the diamond I selected to GIA..and that I would pay for it..I’ll see what she has to say. I’m pretty nervous about this now..

 

[denverappraiser]

It's easy enough to do if the stone is still unmounted and you have the time. I've done this on behalf of clients at least 20 times and as recently as last week. I've seen discrepancies a total of 3 times. In one of those, GIA gave a higher grade, in the other 2 they were lower. I've also done this with GIA to GIA and had discrepancies, by the way. An existing GIA grade is not a guarantee that they will issue the same grade again.

 

[daisygrl]

These discrepancies are one of the reasons I only try to pick a color on its high end (a high G, for instance). I do not usually buy an F (especially if it is a low F) as it can easily turn to a G but I would have to pay a premium of so-called "colorless" range. However, I do not believe that these discrepancies are on a regular basis, otherwise AGSL would not be regarded to have as high reliability and validity as it does. Although, there are enough instances that make me keep an AGSL color range in mind when shopping for diamonds.

I like to think that AGSL places higher importance and precision into a cut and GIA into a color.

PS: This post is 3 years old so, perhaps, AGLS standards for color grading have changed since then.

 

[MamaBee]

It's easy enough to do if the stone is still unmounted and you have the time. I've done this on behalf of clients at least 20 times and as recently as last week. I've seen discrepancies a total of 3 times. In one of those, GIA gave a higher grade, in the other 2 they were lower. I've also done this with GIA to GIA and had discrepancies, by the way. An existing GIA grade is not a guarantee that they will issue the same grade again.

Thank you @denverappraiser...My diamond is definitely not set yet. They just got paid yesterday and they still have to have the traded in diamond go through their verification process. The diamond I purchased is too expensive to be wrong on the color. I could have paid way less if I purchased a G. I’m waiting to see what they say.

 

[Dmndsr4evr11]

GIA H on the left and AGS H on the right...

That’s a pretty white AGS H @Dancing Fire