AGS Diamond Quality Certificate

[RockDoc]

Many labs have identifying software - so they know if they graded the stone previously. As such they also know the gradings.

GIA has proprietary software that does this. There is other software for labs to do this too.

Now if the stone is submitted a second time and they knew the previous grading, how many labs would actually change it?

In the past ( before gradings reports became a "requisite" by consumers) a lot of retailers would say that " You don''t need a lab report"..... if you send the stone back again, it could get a different grading. This DID happen before labs put in the software to know if they graded the stone before.

While the current trend to making a guarantee seems very "lionhearted" like..... in most cases I see it as a "toothless tiger".

The only evidence I''ve "seen" is GCAL''s video of where they state they have an escrow fund from which they pay these sort of claims. The claim to have paid out funds in some instances, but the details of such incidents isn''t reported.

Rockdoc

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/5/2007 6:43:03 PM
Author: oldminer
''If you show me the same diamond, I promise to grade it the same a second time unless it is a different diamond, then all bets are off.''

Any lab can offer this, but few do. With technology and computerization, we can re-identify most stones when they are re-submitted. Any diamond which comes back for a re-check is readily identified.

Making the guarantee meaningless.

All its saying is we will ID the stone and return the same grade, even if it was the wrong grade....or you can trust us too tell you the original grade was off and pay you a lot of money. That builds trust... NOT!

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 5/5/2007 4:34:40 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 5/5/2007 3:41:05 PM
Author: denverappraiser
Storm,

AGSL does not offer preferential grading to AGS stores, to their stockholding members, to their regular clients or to anyone else. They grade stones as they seem and there is definitely NOT a component in the grading results of who are friends with whom.

I agree that it’s debatable how valuable this new product will be for the retailers and I don’t expect it to be especially popular but there’s nothing wrong with it either. Dealers who stand behind their merchandise and who are willing to put their signature on a report specifically stating the grades is a good thing. The consuming public would be better served if every jeweler would do this instead of pretending that they are somehow out of the loop of responsibility since they are selling are ‘certified’ stones.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

I didn''t say they gave preferential treatment, I just said this product is a joke.
Its a circular web of trust that has no value.
In store appraisals is a similar product that lacks a branching web of trust.

Sigh!

Storm, I don''t know where to begin with the ways in which I disagree with you on this. Let me state first that I like you and normally respect you, but this type of comment makes me want to come through the pipe and pinch your ears. Please accept these comments with the knowledge that I do want to maintain our friendship, but also know that I believe these comments to be detrimental to consumers and retailers alike.

I am an AGS affiliate, and as such I am not qualified to have this product, even if I wanted it, which I don''t, so let''s get that issue out of the way first.

Second. The product is NOT a joke, it is an effort by some highly ethical people to fight a real problem in their industry, the erosion of the retail profits necessary to keep their doors open. Contrary to popular belief, it will NOT be to every one''s best interest if there are no retail stores open, with only internet vendors remaining.

While the "circular web of trust" may have no value to you, it will have value, sometimes great value to others. It is your privelege to not enjoy that value or even to value that value, but your lack of personal appreciation for the value does NOT negate the value that it has and will have to others.

Thirdly, why do you feel you are entitled to state as fact that in store appraisals have no value because they contain no trust?

In all my years as a retailer, I have NEVER had a single local client request an independent appraisal of an item that I have sold. Why? BECAUSE I HAVE EARNED THEIR TRUST PRIOR TO CLOSING THE SALE!!!

In my many years as an internet vendor I have had less than ten people ever ask for an independent appraisal. I think it is actually less than five, but I don''t bother keeping track since it is not important to me one way or the other. I am not offended when people ask, but it is such a rarity that I am always just a little surprised.

In the documentation that I provide, it is in a folder labeled "Jewelry Evaluation for Insurance", it is always stated that I am providing this information as a service as I was involved in the sale, so there is no attempt to evade that issue when the documentation is acted upon by an insurance company, whether to issue the policy or to handle the replacement of lost or damaged items.

Frankly, your comment, in addition to denigrating the value of my report is also personally insulting to hundreds if not thousands of good people out here in the real world doing our jobs.

Storm, I do expect you to have opinions and to express them, but when you state opinions as matters of fact you do great disservice to people who may disagree with you about those opinions. You can also cause economic hardship when others believe opinions that are not true and act on that misinformation. I would respectfully ask that you think about such comments as you just made and perhaps tone them down to statements of opinion rather than pronouncements of devine truth. I am sorry if this seems a little harsh, but I am proud of the service that I provide my clients, and do not like being told that it has no basis in truth or trust. My relationship with my clients is totally based on trust.

Wink

 

[oldminer]

Storm, I too, must disagree on the merit of even the small guarantee that some labs are making. It is not a major promise, but it is bringing pressure to bea on the Lab business, GIA included, to stand fully behind their "opinion" rather than hide behind small print and legal mumbo jumbo. These guarantees will slowly change the lab business into ones which give clients more accuracy and assurance. When you put your own money and reputation on the line with an opinion, you have much more reason to be right. You do this by being competent and more careful. These are excelent side effects. For these reasons, I would say your opinion about guarantees is less than helpful. I do say over and over that the guarantees right now are very light and relatively risk free, but where are the big guys who get the big bucks?

The positive nature of the guarantees far outweighs their present limitations.

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/6/2007 4:16:13 PM
Author: oldminer
Storm, I too, must disagree on the merit of even the small guarantee that some labs are making. It is not a major promise, but it is bringing pressure to bea on the Lab business, GIA included, to stand fully behind their ''opinion'' rather than hide behind small print and legal mumbo jumbo. These guarantees will slowly change the lab business into ones which give clients more accuracy and assurance. When you put your own money and reputation on the line with an opinion, you have much more reason to be right. You do this by being competent and more careful. These are excelent side effects. For these reasons, I would say your opinion about guarantees is less than helpful. I do say over and over that the guarantees right now are very light and relatively risk free, but where are the big guys who get the big bucks?

The positive nature of the guarantees far outweighs their present limitations.

David,

How can you guarantee a Diamond quality grade if it is not scientific... (yet...).
I have seen quite a few examples of reputable Lab reports change grades after stones were resubmited for a new grade..., both directions..., up and down.

 

[oldminer]

"How can you guarantee a grading report?"

Its very obvious that it can be done because it is being done. I have detailed the limitations and have given good reason for encouraging the use of guarantees. WHy do you still insist it can''t be done when you can read them with your own eyes. They are not figments of your imagination. They are real, they exist and they are serving good purposes. You may not want to offer such a thing because you don''t understand the implications, but I believe others reading this thread do comprehend the limitations and potential benefits. Insisting that something already being done can''t be done looks like stubborn insistence on the status quo of days already gone by.

 

[diagem]

Thank you for your patience explaning me...
I guess I am a hard learner...

Now you realy make sense...

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/6/2007 3:47:01 PM
Author: Wink



Second. The product is NOT a joke, it is an effort by some highly ethical people to fight a real problem in their industry, the erosion of the retail profits necessary to keep their doors open. Contrary to popular belief, it will NOT be to every one's best interest if there are no retail stores open, with only internet vendors remaining.

So fighting a real problem with profit shrinking by trying to eliminate competition? Doesnt sound like a smart long term strategy to me...




In all my years as a retailer, I have NEVER had a single local client request an independent appraisal of an item that I have sold. Why? BECAUSE I HAVE EARNED THEIR TRUST PRIOR TO CLOSING THE SALE!!!
That is priceless..., Trust is the most imortant asset in this industry..., and you have to work real hard to earn it..., I am glad to hear that Wink...

The only thing I want to point out is that there is a HUGE difference in the "trusts" between the industry professionals and between the pro's and the consumers!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/6/2007 3:47:01 PM
Author: Wink

Sigh!

Storm, I don''t know where to begin with the ways in which I disagree with you on this. Let me state first that I like you and normally respect you, but this type of comment makes me want to come through the pipe and pinch your ears. Please accept these comments with the knowledge that I do want to maintain our friendship, but also know that I believe these comments to be detrimental to consumers and retailers alike.

I am an AGS affiliate, and as such I am not qualified to have this product, even if I wanted it, which I don''t, so let''s get that issue out of the way first.

Second. The product is NOT a joke, it is an effort by some highly ethical people to fight a real problem in their industry, the erosion of the retail profits necessary to keep their doors open. Contrary to popular belief, it will NOT be to every one''s best interest if there are no retail stores open, with only internet vendors remaining.

While the ''circular web of trust'' may have no value to you, it will have value, sometimes great value to others. It is your privelege to not enjoy that value or even to value that value, but your lack of personal appreciation for the value does NOT negate the value that it has and will have to others.

Thirdly, why do you feel you are entitled to state as fact that in store appraisals have no value because they contain no trust?

In all my years as a retailer, I have NEVER had a single local client request an independent appraisal of an item that I have sold. Why? BECAUSE I HAVE EARNED THEIR TRUST PRIOR TO CLOSING THE SALE!!!

In my many years as an internet vendor I have had less than ten people ever ask for an independent appraisal. I think it is actually less than five, but I don''t bother keeping track since it is not important to me one way or the other. I am not offended when people ask, but it is such a rarity that I am always just a little surprised.

In the documentation that I provide, it is in a folder labeled ''Jewelry Evaluation for Insurance'', it is always stated that I am providing this information as a service as I was involved in the sale, so there is no attempt to evade that issue when the documentation is acted upon by an insurance company, whether to issue the policy or to handle the replacement of lost or damaged items.

Frankly, your comment, in addition to denigrating the value of my report is also personally insulting to hundreds if not thousands of good people out here in the real world doing our jobs.

Storm, I do expect you to have opinions and to express them, but when you state opinions as matters of fact you do great disservice to people who may disagree with you about those opinions. You can also cause economic hardship when others believe opinions that are not true and act on that misinformation. I would respectfully ask that you think about such comments as you just made and perhaps tone them down to statements of opinion rather than pronouncements of devine truth. I am sorry if this seems a little harsh, but I am proud of the service that I provide my clients, and do not like being told that it has no basis in truth or trust. My relationship with my clients is totally based on trust.

Wink

Wink if every diamond dealer was like you then it would be a different story.
Secret shop your competition or better yet send your wife or daughter out too do it.
Then tell me if in house appraisals should be trusted and if this guarantee is anything but a joke.

Your appraisals have a circular web of trust but that might be ok for someone who knows you. But is it ok for Joe shoes and diamonds down the street?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Storm the people with that level of AGS qualification that will have the right to use these reports also have high ethical standards. You are out of line to lump them thogether with charlatans.

I have raised the issue of suppliers gradings before and you do not seeem to understand that people in high places have a long way to fall by misplacing the trust that helped them build their brands.

Consider the fact that Tiffany have apparently gone alone without 3rd party grading. And my fictious news papare head lines below

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/6/2007 4:54:18 PM
Author: oldminer
''How can you guarantee a grading report?''

Its very obvious that it can be done because it is being done. I have detailed the limitations and have given good reason for encouraging the use of guarantees. WHy do you still insist it can''t be done when you can read them with your own eyes. They are not figments of your imagination. They are real, they exist and they are serving good purposes. You may not want to offer such a thing because you don''t understand the implications, but I believe others reading this thread do comprehend the limitations and potential benefits. Insisting that something already being done can''t be done looks like stubborn insistence on the status quo of days already gone by.

sales guy: these diamonds are guaranteed to make grade.
consumer1: wow kewl I will take it.

sales guy: these diamonds are guaranteed to make grade.
consumer2: hmmm whats the guarantee?
sales guy: I guarantee the lab I pay for grading will give it the same grade in the future.
consumer2: What about lab xyz will they give it the same grade?
typical sales guy: lab xyz sucks we wont guarantee their grade.
consumer2: If your favorite lab is so great why don''t they guarantee it themselves?
sales guy: ummm ummm because they want me to be responsible for their grade instead of them being on the hook.
consumer2: then why do you use them?
sales guy: good question.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/6/2007 3:47:01 PM
Author: Wink

Storm, I do expect you to have opinions and to express them, but when you state opinions as matters of fact you do great disservice to people who may disagree with you about those opinions. You can also cause economic hardship when others believe opinions that are not true and act on that misinformation. I would respectfully ask that you think about such comments as you just made and perhaps tone them down to statements of opinion rather than pronouncements of devine truth. I am sorry if this seems a little harsh, but I am proud of the service that I provide my clients, and do not like being told that it has no basis in truth or trust. My relationship with my clients is totally based on trust.

Wink

I think its rather funny that anyone would read the opinions I expressed in this thread as devine truth. They are opinions and my own and a few people have disagreed with them and some will agree with them too.
Honestly I don''t care if my opinions are popular or not and i''m not about to honey coat them.

I am one of your client''s and I trusted you to find me a diamond, that means your part of a very small group of people. The fact that I would buy from you again puts you in an even smaller group. The fact that I consider you a friend puts you in an even smaller group yet. But given all that we are going to disagree from time too time, mainly because we are looking at these things from different places and different outlooks.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 5/6/2007 5:27:21 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 5/6/2007 3:47:01 PM
Author: Wink




Second. The product is NOT a joke, it is an effort by some highly ethical people to fight a real problem in their industry, the erosion of the retail profits necessary to keep their doors open. Contrary to popular belief, it will NOT be to every one''s best interest if there are no retail stores open, with only internet vendors remaining.

So fighting a real problem with profit shrinking by trying to eliminate competition? Doesnt sound like a smart long term strategy to me...

I agree DG - it will be interesting to learn what savvy customers think of this ''game''. I suspect that many will see it exactly for what it is - a grab for margin, or sticky fingers in clients pockets. I think it is hard to claim ''added value'' - if that value was there there would be absolutely no need for the AGS or any other certification - a happy state that many of us honest traders find ourselves in. I have a policy of selling +0.90ct stones with lab reports to protect our good name - but I have sold plenty of big stones to very good clients without reports where time did not permit.

The only thing I want to point out is that there is a HUGE difference in the ''trusts'' between the industry professionals and between the pro''s and the consumers! Good point DG - there is a bigger difference between consumers than between vendors - for example my best or equal best client once said to me on a 9ct sale - "I hope you are making enough on this sale Garry, don''t sell your self short".

 

[pricescope]

Date: 5/5/2007 12:23:49 AM
Author: Regular Guy
Certainly, it will be good to get the answers to your questions. Meanwhile, it is at least easy to speculate.

Diamonds vis-a-vis mattresses...

Cert A vs Cert B for this given Certifying Agency: AGS

and I quote:


Comparison Shopping
If you are a shopper who likes to compare values from store to store, you should be aware that comparison shopping by model name can lead to frustration. The manufacturer, who relies on retail stores to sell its products, makes minor modifications to their mattresses for each mattress retailer. The manufacturer will put a different cover on the mattress and change the name so that it will be difficult to compare from one retailer to another. This will result in very similar mattresses being sold by different retailers under different names most likely at different prices. So, find a sleep set you like, then see what level of comfort, support, and quality components you can get for the same amount of money in another store.


Make mine extra firm, please...

Here we go Ira, there are not too many things to be added to the value of a mattress when the ARE comparable...hmm let''s see...you can try to Romanticize it, worked before. Actually don''t you think that mattresses are even easier to romanticise?

And about you preferences - Firmness is in the lower back of a beholder.

 

[pricescope]

Date: 5/6/2007 9:09:30 PM
Author: strmrdr

sales guy: these diamonds are guaranteed to make grade.
consumer1: wow kewl I will take it.

sales guy: these diamonds are guaranteed to make grade.
consumer2: hmmm whats the guarantee?
sales guy: I guarantee the lab I pay for grading will give it the same grade in the future.
consumer2: What about lab xyz will they give it the same grade?
typical sales guy: lab xyz sucks we wont guarantee their grade.
consumer2: If your favorite lab is so great why don''t they guarantee it themselves?
sales guy: ummm ummm because they want me to be responsible for their grade instead of them being on the hook.
consumer2: then why do you use them?
sales guy: good question.

...
sales guy: those reports/certificates/guarantees are not available on the Internet
consumer0: i don''t know what Internet is and never heard of this lab or it''s service, oh i know what''s GIA though!

 

[denverappraiser]

A diamond ring is worth more when it comes from the right store. A hot dog is worth more at the ballpark, a movie is worth more at the theater, a used car is worth more at a dealership and a handbag is worth more on Rodeo drive than it is on ebay. This difference is known as the ‘bundle of rights’ associated with a particular purchase and it is an absolutely critical part of the shopping process. Different people value different things and they can all be right, they just might be answering different questions.

Many Internet shoppers, especially the regulars here, PREFER the experience of shopping online, much to the irritation of traditional jewelers. They attach a high value to the empowerment they feel from researching, the near unlimited selection and the highly competitive atmosphere and there is a growing number of successful stores that cater specifically to this. These dealers deserve their success but they are not the only way. Many, even most, customers prefer a more personal experience of dealing face-to-face with a trusted neighbor. They don’t want to spend days or even months learning the vagaries of diamonds only to risk that they forgot to ask some critical question at the end. They want a jeweler. The #1 component in this added value is trust.

This is the niche for the AGS retailer. They take their ethics seriously. They train their employees, they hold their suppliers to high quality standards and they speak the truth in their advertising, their sales presentations and in everything they do. They''re not the only stores that do these things, but they are the only group I know of where this is the basis of membership. This is value. This sort of value is hard to document and the diamond business is evolving into one where documentation is almost as important as the merchandise. A customer who buys a diamond, even a superb diamond, without the appropriate pedigree is made to feel foolish by their friends, family and coworkers. I think this is a pity but it’s a market reality caused by too many discount dealers selling certified goods with stripped down business models. The DQC is an attempt to document the AGSness of a diamond purchase in this environment. I’m not convinced it will be a success but it’s no joke either. It may not be worth it to everyone, but to some this is a huge deal and putting it in writing is a way of giving the customer a way of justifying their decision to shop at somewhere other than the cheapest possible place to buy a stone.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/7/2007 9:12:30 AM
Author: denverappraiser
A diamond ring is worth more when it comes from the right store. A hot dog is worth more at the ballpark, a movie is worth more at the theater, a used car is worth more at a dealership and a handbag is worth more on Rodeo drive than it is on ebay. This difference is known as the ‘bundle of rights’ associated with a particular purchase and it is an absolutely critical part of the shopping process. Different people value different things and they can all be right, they just might be answering different questions.

Many Internet shoppers, especially the regulars here, PREFER the experience of shopping online, much to the irritation of traditional jewelers. They attach a high value to the empowerment they feel from researching, the near unlimited selection and the highly competitive atmosphere and there is a growing number of successful stores that cater specifically to this. These dealers deserve their success but they are not the only way. Many, even most, customers prefer a more personal experience of dealing face-to-face with a trusted neighbor. They don’t want to spend days or even months learning the vagaries of diamonds only to risk that they forgot to ask some critical question at the end. They want a jeweler. The #1 component in this added value is trust.

This is the niche for the AGS retailer. They take their ethics seriously. They train their employees, they hold their suppliers to high quality standards and they speak the truth in their advertising, their sales presentations and in everything they do. They''re not the only stores that do these things, but they are the only group I know of where this is the basis of membership. This is value. This sort of value is hard to document and the diamond business is evolving into one where documentation is almost as important as the merchandise. A customer who buys a diamond, even a superb diamond, without the appropriate pedigree is made to feel foolish by their friends, family and coworkers. I think this is a pity but it’s a market reality caused by too many discount dealers selling certified goods with stripped down business models. The DQC is an attempt to document the AGSness of a diamond purchase in this environment. I’m not convinced it will be a success but it’s no joke either. It may not be worth it to everyone, but to some this is a huge deal and putting it in writing is a way of giving the customer a way of justifying their decision to shop at somewhere other than the cheapest possible place to buy a stone.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

The problem is this guarantee is smoke and mirrors.
try this one: We AGS labs guarantee this grade and agree to be legally liable for the accuracy of said grade.
Now that would be value.

 

[belle]

Date: 5/7/2007 10:04:45 AM
Author: strmrdr

The problem is this guarantee is smoke and mirrors.
try this one: We AGS labs guarantee this grade and agree to be legally liable for the accuracy of said grade.
Now that would be value.

but it is impossible. it would be more deceptive to make such a guarantee.

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/7/2007 9:12:30 AM
Author: denverappraiser
A diamond ring is worth more when it comes from the right store. A hot dog is worth more at the ballpark, a movie is worth more at the theater, a used car is worth more at a dealership and a handbag is worth more on Rodeo drive than it is on ebay. This difference is known as the ‘bundle of rights’ associated with a particular purchase and it is an absolutely critical part of the shopping process. Different people value different things and they can all be right, they just might be answering different questions.
Agreed!

Many Internet shoppers, especially the regulars here, PREFER the experience of shopping online, much to the irritation of traditional jewelers. They attach a high value to the empowerment they feel from researching, the near unlimited selection and the highly competitive atmosphere and there is a growing number of successful stores that cater specifically to this. These dealers deserve their success but they are not the only way. Many, even most, customers prefer a more personal experience of dealing face-to-face with a trusted neighbor. They don’t want to spend days or even months learning the vagaries of diamonds only to risk that they forgot to ask some critical question at the end. They want a jeweler. The #1 component in this added value is trust.
Agreed!

This is the niche for the AGS retailer. They take their ethics seriously. They train their employees, they hold their suppliers to high quality standards and they speak the truth in their advertising, their sales presentations and in everything they do. They're not the only stores that do these things, but they are the only group I know of where this is the basis of membership. This is value. This sort of value is hard to document and the diamond business is evolving into one where documentation is almost as important as the merchandise. A customer who buys a diamond, even a superb diamond, without the appropriate pedigree is made to feel foolish by their friends, family and coworkers. I think this is a pity but it’s a market reality caused by too many discount dealers selling certified goods with stripped down business models. The DQC is an attempt to document the AGSness of a diamond purchase in this environment. I’m not convinced it will be a success but it’s no joke either. It may not be worth it to everyone, but to some this is a huge deal and putting it in writing is a way of giving the customer a way of justifying their decision to shop at somewhere other than the cheapest possible place to buy a stone.
How many retailers belong to these "group"?
On what basis do you state that these retailers belonging to this group do all what I highlighted above?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/7/2007 10:16:41 AM
Author: belle

Date: 5/7/2007 10:04:45 AM
Author: strmrdr

The problem is this guarantee is smoke and mirrors.
try this one: We AGS labs guarantee this grade and agree to be legally liable for the accuracy of said grade.
Now that would be value.

but it is impossible. it would be more deceptive to make such a guarantee.

no not impossible, the legal doctrine of liability needs to be applied against them with a iso or government standard.
They provide the basis of sale therefor should be required to legally stand behind it.
To pretend to do so or too shift the liability to the dealer is wrong.
Frankly the dealer would be nutz to accept even the little liability there is by using this form.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/7/2007 10:43:31 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 5/7/2007 9:12:30 AM
Author: denverappraiser

This is the niche for the AGS retailer. They take their ethics seriously. They train their employees, they hold their suppliers to high quality standards and they speak the truth in their advertising, their sales presentations and in everything they do. How many retailers belong to these ''group''?
On what basis do you state that these retailers belonging to this group do all what I highlighted above?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

good question.
With billions of dollars at stake them policing there own customers and even their owners don''t sound so good..... re: GIA bribes.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 5/7/2007 10:04:45 AM
Author: strmrdr
The problem is this guarantee is smoke and mirrors.
try this one: We AGS labs guarantee this grade and agree to be legally liable for the accuracy of said grade.
Now that would be value.

That''s what Dave, GCAL and several other ''minor'' other labs are doing. As Dave has pointed out, this is not a particularly difficult or even especially risky thing for them to promise and I agree that it would be nice if AGSL and GIA would offer it. That’s not the issue at hand. This is an assurance being offered by individual retailers on items that THEY sell. I think you can argue that there is less of an inherent conflict of interest here because the guarantor is not the lab itself but I think this is splitting hairs. You can bet that if an AGS retailer ever ends up paying off on this, they will be mightily annoyed at the lab over it and that they will make their irritation known. Too much of that and the lab is going to have a problem keeping the support of the membership.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 5/7/2007 10:58:45 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 5/7/2007 10:04:45 AM
Author: strmrdr
The problem is this guarantee is smoke and mirrors.
try this one: We AGS labs guarantee this grade and agree to be legally liable for the accuracy of said grade.
Now that would be value.

That''s what Dave, GCAL and several other ''minor'' other labs are doing. As Dave has pointed out, this is not a particularly difficult or even especially risky thing for them to promise and I agree that it would be nice if AGSL and GIA would offer it. That’s not the issue at hand. This is an assurance being offered by individual retailers on items that THEY sell. I think you can argue that there is less of an inherent conflict of interest here because the guarantor is not the lab itself but I think this is splitting hairs. You can bet that if an AGS retailer ever ends up paying off on this, they will be mightily annoyed at the lab over it and that they will make their irritation known. Too much of that and the lab is going to have a problem keeping the support of the membership.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

As it''s developed, this does seem like the main point...making a paper tiger of who is the guarantor.

 

[WinkHPD]

te:[/b] 5/7/2007 10:04:45 AM
Author: strmrdr

The problem is this guarantee is smoke and mirrors.

try this one: We AGS labs guarantee this grade and agree to be legally liable for the accuracy of said grade.

Now that would be value.[/quote]

The problem is that no one can guarantee a grade. Grading is so subjective and stones are often close to a borderline which can be crossed one day and not the next. (Are you in love and seeing every thing well, or did someone kick your cat today. These things can and do affect your perception of the world and thus your grading on any given day.)

Were grading a black and white issue, it would be easier.

I stand behind my stones, if I sell them as xyz I trade them back as xyz, no matter what I might be thinking on the day that they come back to me. The sole exception that I can think of, I had a stone in house that I graded as a J-VS1 probably VVS2 but I was willing to stand behind VS1. My client, a man visiting his parents, wanted a GIA cert on the stone. (This was back in the day when not every stone over a carat already had a paper on it, and this was a three carat.)

I told the man I guaranteed it to come back a J-VS1 or better or I would cancel the sale and return his full purchase price. The stone came back a G-VVS2. He of course did not want to pay for the higher grade, I did not expect him to, but he was REALLY cranky when I put my dissenting opinion on the sales receipt that I thought this stone to be a J color and that I sold it priced as a J color and would only ever trade it back in as a J color and that I accepted no liability should the stone ever be re certed and come back a lower color. I even listed my dissenting opinion in the Evaluation for Insurance that I issued so that there would NEVER be any way I could be held responsible for the deplorable job that was done by GIA on the color grade of that stone. It was just barely better than my J/K split grade color master and WAY worse than my G. So in a way I did stand behind my stone, just not at the level that GIA graded the stone.

We all hear about "lucky" certs, and that was my experience with the luckiest I have ever seen. Still, it points out that even the mighty make mistakes. The fact that the AGS jewelers are willing to put their names on the certs and stand behind them, lucky or not, is going to have some value for some folks and be meaningless for others.

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

How many retailers belong to these "group"?
On what basis do you state that these retailers belonging to this group do all what I highlighted above?

Every AGS member must agree to comply with the AGS code of ethics as part of their terms of membership. This includes rules specifically about advertising and how stones are presented to customers. Failure to comply can and does result in expulsion from the organization. Are there members who cheat? Probably. And if you know any, report them directly to AGS for disciplinary action. Joining requires approval by the board and involves examining their store, their advertising, their appraisals (if they do them) and a fair amount of other sticking of their nose in your business. The members pay a fair amount to be subjected to this and this alone tends to preclude those who don’t want to play the game the AGS way. Details are on the AGS website at www.americangemsociety.org.

I don’t know the current membership but I’ll ask them when they open.

By the way, my firm is an AGS member and I personally am an AGS titleholder although as an appraisal specialty company, we are not eligible for this program.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA)ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 5/7/2007 10:48:16 AM
Author: strmrdr
no not impossible, the legal doctrine of liability needs to be applied against them with a iso or government standard.
They provide the basis of sale therefor should be required to legally stand behind it.
To pretend to do so or too shift the liability to the dealer is wrong.
Frankly the dealer would be nutz to accept even the little liability there is by using this form.

Under the uniform commercial code , merchants in the United States already have this liability, they just don’t generally acknowledge it and few people are inclined to persue it when there is an issue. If a merchant sells a stone and represents it to be a particular grade, weight, or any other property, the buyer relies on this statement in their purchasing decision and this is later found to be false, the purchaser has potential legal recourse against the seller. The original lab recanting their opinion would be the basis for a pretty good case.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA)ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 5/6/2007 8:14:25 PM
Author: strmrdr
Wink if every diamond dealer was like you then it would be a different story.

Secret shop your competition or better yet send your wife or daughter out too do it.

Then tell me if in house appraisals should be trusted and if this guarantee is anything but a joke.


Your appraisals have a circular web of trust but that might be ok for someone who knows you. But is it ok for Joe shoes and diamonds down the street?

Thank you for your kind comments, they are truly appreciated!

You do have a point that many jewelers do not seem to have the education, nor the desire to keep current with the education that they and their sales representatives have. It is a lamentable but true statement that comes from the rapid entry of the unqualified into an industry that was thirty years ago perceived to be a high profit low cost of entry business. Times have changed, but many of the marginal operators are still here, hanging on by threads or even prospering in spite of their lack of knowledge and or integrity. (I include some of the high profile chain stores here that regularly make a practice of going bankrupt however often it is legal so that they can avoid paying the poor saps who sell to them, but that is another sad chapter of American Business Ethics/lack thereof entirely)

Still, there are many of us, thousands of us in this country that are just like me. Single stores, or small two to three store businesses, that make living ethically and with high trust between us and our clients. Well earned trust.

Add to that the FACT that in Boise, and in many many communities across the nation, there are few if any quality independent appraisers available. I have had beautiful Richard Homer stones appraised for less than half of their cost to me because one so called appraiser did not know what she was looking at. I also had a complex custom made piece appraised, supposedly for full retail for less than the pennyweight value of the platinum involved, let alone for the added value of the custom design. Turns out she thought the piece was gold and did not bother to test the metal. With this kind of incompetence available, is it any wonder that I prefer to provide my own documentation?

It is a conundrum I agree. Who do you trust? In spite of all of our efforts to legally make it otherwise, there must still be a large portion of Caveat Emptor in your buying decisions. Know who you are dealing with, do your own homework, and if you feel it wise, trust but verify.

Wink

 

[adamasgem]

There are a couple of issues here that should be considered..

1) The credibility of each of the laboratories offering "guarantees"
2) The difference in one laboratory''s grading standards vis-a-vie another labs standards
3) The historical downward slide in grading standards by the "worlds foremost authority" (excluding bribery)
4) Illusionary repeatability..

A couple of years back in the thread https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/reliably-and-repeatedly-grading-the-color-of-diamonds.36195/ we discussed color grading standards, and the apparent statistically significant difference in the distribution availaible of stones from one laboratory versus another, based on time snapshots of databases and, in the case of AGS, historical records (> 300000 stones) which agreed with the relativiely small sample set ( < 10000 ) statistics..

In the 1990''s GIA implimented their Horizon database (I believe that is what it is called) to give, what I termed then, the "illusion of repeatability", as historically, stones could be resubmitted until the submitter got the paper they wanted. No attempt was made prior to that, to see, in the general run of things, whether a particular stone had been previously graded at GIA, with the possible exception of a limited amount of "significant" or important stones.

A major player and sightholder in the industry told me of numerous situations where they said they had stacks of (in that case, of GIA) "paper" that they couldn''t use, because no one would believe the "grade" on the paper. I found that firm to be credible, they even showing me "masters" which had been regraded because of mistakes made..

EVERYBODY MAKES MISTAKES

Stones are constantly being resubmitted to every lab for reconsideration...

Let''s get to the 4 issues I stated above and start with #4, "Illusionary repeatability" which I touched on briefly.

If a stone has been laser inscribed, then it becomes relatively easy for a lab to find it in its database and reinforce its previous opinion. Remove the inscription, possibly changing the weight, and it becomes more difficult to "find" a previously graded stone, but it can be done, if there are accurate scans of the stone in the database..

Since most, if not all grading is somewhat subjective, borderline stones might get one grade one day and the borderline grade, the next, with a different set of eyes or using a different set of "masters", in the case of color.

Issue #3.. Downward slide in grading standards.. What is one color or clarity one day may now be a new color or clarity the next.. One only has to look at how color and clarity grading desciptive terms have changed over the years, obstensivly to further clarify things. In some cases, like fluorescence ( http://www.adamasgem.org/giafluor.html ) other factors may have influenced "decisions".

In some cases, like the current cut grading standards from one laboratory to another, some labs rely on a purely scientific approach and some muddy up the water with taste tests.

Most in the trade would accept the proposition that there appears also to be a slippage in clarity grading standards by the 600# gorilla in the trade. In other labs there are other issues like just WHAT is an SI3 at various points in time.

Issue #2 "Standards" or lack thereof.. Some labs may appear to be looser in their grading standards than others, unfortunately there is no governing body like NIST, that polices these standards. Most laboratories say they are trying to emulate the 600# gorilla''s "standards", but when these standards continually change or are "flexible" to the particular client, that can be difficult. Traceability to one "standard" is difficult or non existent. This is a particular problem with smaller independent labs.

Some labs in the US and abroad, might be even be considered outright scam artists, with their paper being worth more if it wasn''t laminated, as it would have a higher and better use in the bathroom.

Some laboratories are hamstrung because the 600# gorilla hasn''t been very cooperative in the past with competing laboratories in revealing information. That might hopefully change with the new administration, I surely hope it does..

Issue #1 Credibility

Sometimes there are honest disagreements, with one laboratory being either looser, or one being more conservative in their grading. I think the consumer should err on selecting the conservative side.

There have been many discussions on this on PS, especially recently regarding cut grading standards.

As the price of the stone increases, multiple opinions might be cost effective in preventing mistakes, as the relative cost of each opinion is a small percentage of the total cost of the stone, especially when you consider what you pay states in sales taxes just for having the priviledge to buy the stone.

The wholesalers and suppliers are in a dilemma because they are tying up more of their already slim profit margins in "paper", and not goods. Many have been severely impacted from the distribution of rough and also their memo practices when a retailer goes belly up.

Just a few thoughts...

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 5/7/2007 10:43:31 AM
Author: DiaGem
How many retailers belong to these ''group''?

AGS headquarters reports that there are currently 873 retail member firms. Several of these have multiple locations.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[whatmeworry]

Given the lack of an internationally accepted standard of grading diamonds, people can either perceive vendors standing behind their products as a joke or as added value.

Examples I have seen here on this Forum:
1. Tiffany: We guarantee the grading to be excatly as we advertise. Yay for Tiffany ! I can shop knowing I won''t be scammed.
2. Costco: We guarantee our diamonds to be I VS2 or better. Boo. What a sham! Grading according to whose standards? IGI? Boo! Their lab is a joke!.

Example: I just bought a G SI1 from grade from well respected Lab , I just had it appraised from
1. Mr. Smith who gave it a grade of F VS1. Wow I got a great deal, I''m so happy!
2. Miss Jones who gave it a grade of I SI2, Boo! Boo!. Miss Jones you suck as an appraiser. Let''s find another opinion.
3. Mr. Brown who gives it a grade of H SI1. Okay, Mr. Vendor you just sold me something not as advertised, whatcha going to do?

Even given the lack of an internationally accepted standard, I thnk vendors/appraisers standing behind their product is added value. Here''s my standards (agree with it or not), I guarantee that my product lives up this this standard. What''s wrong with that?