A Discussion On Bias

[Rockdiamond]

HI Ellen, First and foremost- will you please clarify your statement of "getting ripped off" by a jeweler, and possibly again by another.
Ellen, I'm sorry that happened to you- maybe you mention it because you want to explain your skepticism, however please clarify that you and I have never done business, and that you were NOT referring to me in your opening statement.

You also mention we had spoken- was this on the phone?
If I did not answer your question, I apologize.


With regards to your criticism:
I can go over things point by point- such as it's true that many stones in the J-K range,and I1's are offered without GIA reports- and sometimes I buy such stones.
However we carry diamonds in EVERY color grade WITH GIA reports. AS well as many I1 diamonds with GIA reports.
You also mentioned photography.
How about the photos I use that actually notate the imperfections?
Ellen, if I have a stone that has an imperfection I can see, I go to great lengths to make sure the shopper knows this.

Emerald Cuts with VG symmetry: ON an internet list, they may be common, but in the real world when you are looking at stones from cutters, not so much.

then you say I mention a stone is "Cut by the book"...except, you take the comment completely out of context.
Here's what I wrote
"A 5.00ct stone that was "cut by the book"- using the charts you can find on the internet, it will be between 10 and 11mm long. "
The stone in the listing is 12.04mm long- oh and guess what- it's an I1 with a GIA report!

FSB- Yes I use the term Brilliance- however I do not separate out the different qualities of Fire Scintillation and Brilliance as I don;t feel such distinctions are valid.
Which is want I said in the thread you linked to.

AH yes, our 2.12 F/IF Asscher- thank you for bringing that one into the conversation!
Of course I mention the cut- it's incredibly important.
I also mention that the cutter went to great lengths to achieve EX/EX. OK so what?
I never said it does not matter- but I have said you can't see the difference between G,VG, and EX in many cases.

On your last out of context quote...here it is in context

Of course no matter how well you set crappy diamonds, you're going to have a cruddy finished product.

We use our own grading system. It starts with cut. There's only two grades "Amazing1", "REJECT"

See, if it's not really well cut we won't use it- regardless of the color and clarity.

These particular diamonds are carefully selected SI diamonds.

Ellen, since we're all discussing this openly now, let me say I have nothing at all against you, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to discuss things that may bother you.
To thine own self be true.
Maybe you don;t like what I write, or how I feel, but there's really not a lot of pretense with me.
I say what I feel.
If some people don;t like me because they disagree, it's possible others will find resonance due to the fact I speak my heart.


Rock of love- it would be ridiculous for someone to try and convince you to trust vendors.
Clearly it's your right.
But please remember that we are ALL people here.


Storm- you claim you never dissed a stone- however I showed an actual example.
Can you tell us why you told the person not to buy the 1.29ct I showed above?

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 7/27/2009 6:56:18 PM
Author: Moh 10
I think PS needs a mission statement or a charter that clarifies roles and the purpose of Pricescope.

Here is the mission statement for PS. Which starts with a joke about how mission statements are so boring & ends with saying people who don''t play nice or don''t like what goes on here can b*gger off. (Paraphrasing courtesy of Deco).

 

[bowral1]

Date: 7/27/2009 7:01:01 PM
Author: Amethyste
ok...
This thread is giving me a friggin'' headache.

There is no need to attack each other and show hostility.
It does destroy the kind spirit of PS...

I agree with Amethyste. Maybe its my personality, maybe it’s the way my mother raised me, or (more honestly) maybe its because no one on this post has personally offended me so its easy for me to remain dispassionate

I wanted to share some thoughts on being negativity. . . . .

Something they that teach us at work (when you manage people) is that you have to learn that take people''s weaknesses and turn them into strengths. They also made us watch a Video called “Job Whale Done” The idea behind the training was that neither people or killer whales respond well the criticism or punishment. And with Killer Whales . . . . good luck trying to punish them! They are going to whatever the heck they want to!

How does this relate to this Post? Can’t we be positive and nice to the vendors, posters, etc. Ganging up on someone, choosing sides, chastising them, etc . . .. wont EVER give you the desired outcome you want to achieve. You have to coach people nicely.

This post was about Biased. Everyone is biased but the main purpose is "can you put aside that bias to do what is really best for the consumer?" I think all the animosity only proves Judah’s point that people have some very strong biases on this site.

RD, you are very argumentative, you remind me of an old high school friend. It was exhausting talking to her because she always had to prove herself right and play the devils advocate. You definitely are being picked on, but you need to learn to play nice or people wont want to “talk” to you (aka work with . . .)

Melissa

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thank you for the constructive criticism bowral1...so I shouldn't be yelling at everyone that calls??....hehehe

Seriously- I hear you and am making an effort.
With the volume of "picking on" I've been subject to, that is sometimes a challenge.
I totally agree with what you wrote about positive reinforcement is the way to go.

 

[Lula]

Date: 7/27/2009 3:59:00 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 7/27/2009 3:51:54 PM

I get the picture your here to protect the trade from all of us evil pricescopers by driving people away from here.

Big, fat, giant, huge DITTO. Thank you, Storm, for saying what I believe a lot of us are thinking.

 

[bowral1]

Date: 7/27/2009 7:12:12 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thank you for the constructive criticism bowral1...so I shouldn''t be yelling at everyone that calls??....hehehe

Seriously- I hear you and am making an effort.
With the volume of ''picking on'' I''ve been subject to, that is sometimes a challenge.
I totally agree with what you wrote about positive reinforcement is the way to go.

RD that’s awesome I think that is all people wanted to hear from you.

***Sidebar . . . . You know I have a another high school friend who is a genius and she has a hard time ever seeing anyone else’s point of view because she is so smart (IQ 160+) she thinks (or is) she is always right. In her annual performance review at her job that was something her boss mentioned "doesn’t listen to others".

I just laughed when she told me . . . . . I told her “you are so smart you don’t ever give people a chance to share their side, because most of your life you have been right . . . .”. Maybe you are cursed by brains/knowledge?

Good luck everyone on the rest of this post. But seriously I should be working in trouble times like these!

 

[Rockdiamond]

hehehe- great point bowral1.
I will say that when I thought of opening Rock Diamond, back in early 1998- the advice given was " YOU''VE GOT A GREAT JOB.... DON''T DO IT!!"

Then once I opened, the advice was "DON''t BUY THE DIAMONDS- GET THEM ON CONSIGNMENT"- this was from Sam Spade- one of my closest and most valued advisers- who happens to be well over 80.
What did I do? I bought the diamonds, thank goodness for that today!

So, sometimes to get someplace no one has been, it''s necessary to go against well meaning advice given by others.

 

[Moh 10]

Is it possible for PS to be both a consumer protection site and a vendor protection site?

Are these two functions mutually exclusive?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Moh- it''s already here!
Look, if I did have to apologize for something, it would be for the....disruption.

In fact, over time, you may come to thank me for it.
Because it''s important- that''s why I have come back, and taken a stand.

The praise for the management of PS was by no means hollow.
I don;t know how many of you have ever run an internet forum, but I can tell you firsthand, it''s amazingly difficult.
People are very sensitive.

In spite of all this, I disagree, respectfully with Serg that PS is sick.
Serg, clearly if many of the participants of this thread had their wish, I would not be writing this.
Yet, I am.

That in itself is a great thing.

I had terrible arguments with Garry years back.
I can''t express how happy I am that he and I have at least come to some sort of a balance- I''d really love to meet Garry.

Ellen, Gypsy, Storm...and all the others with whom I may have clashed- life is really short.
Let''s put this behind us, and agree that PS works for everyone- and just try to be nice to each other.

We can express differences of opinion- even in a heated manner sometimes, but at the end of the day we''d all be happier if the jewelry business was more "transparent" at a wider range of places that it is today.
Though we may disagree on specifics- we can agree on that.

 

[Lula]

Date: 7/27/2009 7:35:33 PM
Author: Moh 10
Is it possible for PS to be both a consumer protection site and a vendor protection site?


Are these two functions mutually exclusive?

Before this thread, I would have said yes, it''s possible to be both. In an ideal world, what it best for one will benefit the other.

However, sadly, after reading all 10-plus pages of this thread, I have to say no. But this animosity seems to be isolated to a few parties and not representative of typical vendor-prosumer interaction. I''d like to believe that this is not representative of the PS I''ve grown to love.

One curious thing I''ve noticed: Whenever there appears to be some resolution and peace on this thread, RD shows up again to stir the pot. This is why I agreed with Storm''s comment that RD''s posts seem to have the goal of discrediting PS and causing doubt in the minds of newbies who may have had the bad luck to stumble upon this car wreck of a thread.

To those newbies, I say: Before you make a judgment about the veracity of a given prosumer or vendor, look carefully at the person''s posting history, i.e., how long have they been a member of PS; how many posts have they written; do a search in the archives for their names, and read the history. You will learn a lot.

There are many vendors represented here who have earned their stellar reputations, though many years of committed service to the consumers on this site, and through fair play with other vendors. There are others who envy the good reputations of these "recommended vendors" and cry foul.

 

[Black Jade]

Date: 7/27/2009 7:35:33 PM
Author: Moh 10
Is it possible for PS to be both a consumer protection site and a vendor protection site?

Are these two functions mutually exclusive?

wow, this thread has taken a lot of interesting twists and turns.

This is an interesting question of Moh''s.

I''m glad we''re not on the level of "I just don''t like you" anymore. As a mom of three that kind of thing makes me want to smack people''s heads together and yell, ''Just to go to your rooms and don''t come out until you can be nice to each other!''

For me, it''s interesting to read the discussion if information is being given that helps me to understand things. I actually think it is constructive that Judah began this thread. When Ellen lists specific reasons that she doesn''t respect RD, I can respect that--and also then RD can defend himself, which is also interesting to read. Sergey had some input that interested me, also and I liked the points that were brought up some time ago by the appraiser (I am sorry that I have forgotten his name). There was a point at which several people that I respect a lot for their input (Ellen, Lorelei and some others) spoke about why they do what they do, and how they will try to be careful to guard against certain things since reading this thread, and I respected them even more for taking criticism so well. I was also fascinated to hear that being on the listserv has inspired people to wish to take courses to get certified and become ''experts''.

Sergey wrote a while back that PS is ''sick'' which is rather a strong word in English, perhaps stronger than he realizes. I guess I see it more as that Pricescope is going into territory that no one has gone to before, and people are figuring it out as they go along, so there are bound to be glitches along the way, and in fact outright strife as everyone''s ideas and goals won''t ever totally mesh together. I repeat that I think that Moh has asked a very interesting question here. Can the board be ''a protection site'' for both consumers and vendors? I am also still interesting in a question I asked a while back, which I think only time will show the answer to. 8 years after PS was begun we know that it''s possible to buy beautiful stones over the internet safely if you stick to extremely stringent paper standards that leave a lot of stones out. Is it possible to find a way to include some of the stones which are beautiful but don''t fit the paper standards? I think everyone that has been contributing to this discussion agrees that such stones exist and I don''t think that I''m the only consumer who might be interested in them.

P.S. If my post offends anyone, I''m sorry, that''s not my intention. I don''t know any of you and am not making judgments about anyone or taking sides--I''m just really interested in this discussion and I like it when I see it going forward so that I can learn something, and I dislike it when it gets off track and personal rather than informative. I''ve been on PS a year but in a sort of off and on way and I guess, unlike many of you who seem to be ''friends'' (or the opposite) with each other, I don''t have any emotions invested in this community (except gratitude about being helped and an interest to learn more where I can).

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/27/2009 7:05:46 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

HI Ellen, First and foremost- will you please clarify your statement of ''getting ripped off'' by a jeweler, and possibly again by another.
Ellen, I''m sorry that happened to you- maybe you mention it because you want to explain your skepticism, however please clarify that you and I have never done business, and that you were NOT referring to me in your opening statement.

You also mention we had spoken- was this on the phone?
If I did not answer your question, I apologize.


With regards to your criticism:
I can go over things point by point- such as it''s true that many stones in the J-K range,and I1''s are offered without GIA reports- and sometimes I buy such stones.
However we carry diamonds in EVERY color grade WITH GIA reports. AS well as many I1 diamonds with GIA reports.
You also mentioned photography.
How about the photos I use that actually notate the imperfections?
Ellen, if I have a stone that has an imperfection I can see, I go to great lengths to make sure the shopper knows this.

Emerald Cuts with VG symmetry: ON an internet list, they may be common, but in the real world when you are looking at stones from cutters, not so much.

then you say I mention a stone is ''Cut by the book''...except, you take the comment completely out of context.
Here''s what I wrote
''A 5.00ct stone that was ''cut by the book''- using the charts you can find on the internet, it will be between 10 and 11mm long. ''
The stone in the listing is 12.04mm long- oh and guess what- it''s an I1 with a GIA report!

FSB- Yes I use the term Brilliance- however I do not separate out the different qualities of Fire Scintillation and Brilliance as I don;t feel such distinctions are valid.
Which is want I said in the thread you linked to.

AH yes, our 2.12 F/IF Asscher- thank you for bringing that one into the conversation!
Of course I mention the cut- it''s incredibly important.
I also mention that the cutter went to great lengths to achieve EX/EX. OK so what?
I never said it does not matter- but I have said you can''t see the difference between G,VG, and EX in many cases.

On your last out of context quote...here it is in context

Of course no matter how well you set crappy diamonds, you''re going to have a cruddy finished product.

We use our own grading system. It starts with cut. There''s only two grades ''Amazing1'', ''REJECT''

See, if it''s not really well cut we won''t use it- regardless of the color and clarity.

These particular diamonds are carefully selected SI diamonds.

Ellen, since we''re all discussing this openly now, let me say I have nothing at all against you, and I''m grateful for the opportunity to discuss things that may bother you.
To thine own self be true.
Maybe you don;t like what I write, or how I feel, but there''s really not a lot of pretense with me.
I say what I feel.
If some people don;t like me because they disagree, it''s possible others will find resonance due to the fact I speak my heart.


Rock of love- it would be ridiculous for someone to try and convince you to trust vendors.
Clearly it''s your right.
But please remember that we are ALL people here.


Storm- you claim you never dissed a stone- however I showed an actual example.
Can you tell us why you told the person not to buy the 1.29ct I showed above?

I will for sure David, in a different thread that I''m going to do at a later date. I can''t see how you think my post would give the impression you had ripped me off, but no, it was not any vendor on this board. And I never said we spoke, we haven''t.

As for the rest, we could most likely go back and forth all night, so I will just say, ok, and leave it at that. You say tomahto, I say tomayto....


And believe me, if I had ever seen any evidence that "positive reinforcement" would work, I would have gladly chosen that route.

 

[Ellen]

p.s. To all the people who said kind things about me in this thread, thank you, I really do appreciate it.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/27/2009 8:16:03 PM
Author: Black Jade

Date: 7/27/2009 7:35:33 PM
Author: Moh 10
Is it possible for PS to be both a consumer protection site and a vendor protection site?

Are these two functions mutually exclusive?

wow, this thread has taken a lot of interesting twists and turns.

This is an interesting question of Moh''s.

I''m glad we''re not on the level of ''I just don''t like you'' anymore. As a mom of three that kind of thing makes me want to smack people''s heads together and yell, ''Just to go to your rooms and don''t come out until you can be nice to each other!''

For me, it''s interesting to read the discussion if information is being given that helps me to understand things. I actually think it is constructive that Judah began this thread. When Ellen lists specific reasons that she doesn''t respect RD, I can respect that--and also then RD can defend himself, which is also interesting to read. Sergey had some input that interested me, also and I liked the points that were brought up some time ago by the appraiser (I am sorry that I have forgotten his name). There was a point at which several people that I respect a lot for their input (Ellen, Lorelei and some others) spoke about why they do what they do, and how they will try to be careful to guard against certain things since reading this thread, and I respected them even more for taking criticism so well. I was also fascinated to hear that being on the listserv has inspired people to wish to take courses to get certified and become ''experts''.

Sergey wrote a while back that PS is ''sick'' which is rather a strong word in English, perhaps stronger than he realizes. I guess I see it more as that Pricescope is going into territory that no one has gone to before, and people are figuring it out as they go along, so there are bound to be glitches along the way, and in fact outright strife as everyone''s ideas and goals won''t ever totally mesh together. I repeat that I think that Moh has asked a very interesting question here. Can the board be ''a protection site'' for both consumers and vendors? I am also still interesting in a question I asked a while back, which I think only time will show the answer to. 8 years after PS was begun we know that it''s possible to buy beautiful stones over the internet safely if you stick to extremely stringent paper standards that leave a lot of stones out. Is it possible to find a way to include some of the stones which are beautiful but don''t fit the paper standards? I think everyone that has been contributing to this discussion agrees that such stones exist and I don''t think that I''m the only consumer who might be interested in them.

P.S. If my post offends anyone, I''m sorry, that''s not my intention. I don''t know any of you and am not making judgments about anyone or taking sides--I''m just really interested in this discussion and I like it when I see it going forward so that I can learn something, and I dislike it when it gets off track and personal rather than informative. I''ve been on PS a year but in a sort of off and on way and I guess, unlike many of you who seem to be ''friends'' (or the opposite) with each other, I don''t have any emotions invested in this community (except gratitude about being helped and an interest to learn more where I can).

Not at all! I have enjoyed your posts very much. You''ve raised some good points, and asked some great questions. /www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif[/img]


And thank you for understanding and respecting the intent of my post.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Wow, I commented last on page 2 this thread has grown a little.

A few things. One thing I have learned is that you don't need to have your "hands on a stone" to buy it. I have bought both from stores, and online, and have been happier with the stones I got online. I don't know how to read an ASET, but I know how to read an ideal scope, and that is manly what I use for judging round diamonds. If a vendor does not offer it, I can use the numbers, but I find it takes me a lot longer.

On PS, it is easier to help people who are looking at online stones, so I guess their is a bias toward internet vendors. I find it much easier to click on a link, look at a stone and give my opinion than to try and figure out a store bought stone by the numbers. If a stone is a little off, I guess the right question to ask is "how does the stone look to you?" Also, if a consumer from Chicago is asking for a recommendation, I really can't give a local jeweler when the only one I know is in San Diego, but I can direct him to a website.

In real life, I have only found one B&M that really understands the importance of cut in diamonds, and the details of colored stones, including treatments. This was the only store I know that the owner sends his employees to the GIA so they can answer questions in an intelligent fashion. It is really too bad he is against internet diamond commerce, he would do really well in a setting like this and I think he would see his business skyrocket. His anti-internet views have also kept me away even though I love his stuff, because I don't want to take a stone I bought online to be set, only to have to justify why I bought it online. Times are changing, and if vendors don't change, they will loose out.

More often than not, I find that I the B&M are not like the one described above, they stretch the truth and sometimes out right lie (I have one sales lady from a major chain store tell me that ALL sapphires are treated). That is why this site is so important, and that is why consumers come to help. At least for me, I wanted a beautiful stone, and I didn't know what to buy, and the sales people were no help. Pricescope, with all its numbers and images, allowed me to finally have the beautiful, white, eye clean diamonds, and nicely colored stones, I always wanted but could never seem to find.

 

[Lula]

Date: 7/27/2009 8:16:03 PM
Author: Black Jade

Date: 7/27/2009 7:35:33 PM

Author: Moh 10

Is it possible for PS to be both a consumer protection site and a vendor protection site?


Are these two functions mutually exclusive?

wow, this thread has taken a lot of interesting twists and turns.


This is an interesting question of Moh's.


I'm glad we're not on the level of 'I just don't like you' anymore. As a mom of three that kind of thing makes me want to smack people's heads together and yell, 'Just to go to your rooms and don't come out until you can be nice to each other!'


I am also still interesting in a question I asked a while back, which I think only time will show the answer to. 8 years after PS was begun we know that it's possible to buy beautiful stones over the internet safely if you stick to extremely stringent paper standards that leave a lot of stones out. Is it possible to find a way to include some of the stones which are beautiful but don't fit the paper standards? I think everyone that has been contributing to this discussion agrees that such stones exist and I don't think that I'm the only consumer who might be interested in them.

Great post, Black Jade. And I think you raise an interesting question. I believe it is possible for PS to include stones that don't fit the paper standards -- and those discussions have happened regularly on PS, with regard to lower colors and clarities. Amethyste's lemony pear is a wonderful example of a stone that is beautiful but doesn't really fit neatly into any paper standard, and seems to be a bit of a "mystery," to boot.

There are many ways to buy a diamond, and I think the prosumers respect the poster's choice (except if there's a suspicion that the poster may be in danger of being scammed).

I see prosumers enthusiastically responding to posters who want to buy a good stone for a good price (either online or from their local B&M) that is not an AGS000, and they are given guidelines on what to look for so that they can buy the best stone for their money. Because the prosumers can't see the stones, they do tend to refer the consumer to the "safe" numbers.

However, I have seen posters willing to dig through the "haystacks" of Blue Nile (just as an example) and propose stone after stone, and the prosumers patiently give their feedback for each stone. Many of these stones are outside the "safe" or AGS000 parameters, and many have less-than-perfect IS/ASET/HCA results.

In these situations, I see posters given the advice, "Check the vendor's return policy. If you like the stone, buy it, look at it in a variety of lighting conditions, and if it speaks to you and you love it, keep it; if not, return it." The recommendation from the prosumers is for the consumer to trust his/her eyes! Seriously, I don't think it is the goal of PS prosumers that every diamond sold be an AGS000.

For me, I am not willing to take the haystack approach. I prefer to spend a little more and buy a branded cut. I know what to expect, and I know when I upgrade, I'll get the same great-performing cut, and I don't have to look at 100's of stones to find it. But I admire those posters willing to do the extra work it takes to find the beauties that are out there.

Many people work with a jeweler whom they feel they can trust, who brings in stones for them, and many people find that the money they save by buying online is not worth being able to drive down the street and see the stones in person.

I feel I can trust my jeweler, too. He just doesn't live in the same city I do and we do business over the internet.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Also, going off Sara''s point of buying a branded cut because....in a way, I think a lot of small businesses have benefited from PS.

Take my BF. When we met, he said he would only buy jewelry from Tiffany''s. His reason was because he has some very rich relatives who spent a very large amount of money at the "highest esteemed" jeweler in town. Well, they needed to get them re-appraised a few years later, and they discovered that all the pieces were mis-represented and not worth nearly the amount they paid. He told me he wanted a national chain that was known for reputation, and that Tiffany''s won''t "mess with him." He also liked the look of their work.

Well over the last 2 years, he has been looking over my shoulder, and seeing rings that he like''s better than the one''s at Tiffanys. He really has an eye for custom made pieces, and has come to appreciate Leon and VC. He has also been amazed by the H&A, and has come to really like Brian Galvin. He is starting to see that if you know how to shop, you can find a family owned jewelry company that will give you a high quality product. I think the key to getting customers though PS is top quality costumer service, a transparent way to evaluate the diamonds, and well made pieces of jewelry, as well as competitive pricing.

 

[kas baby]

Date: 7/27/2009 8:16:03 PM
Author: Black Jade

Date: 7/27/2009 7:35:33 PM
Author: Moh 10
Is it possible for PS to be both a consumer protection site and a vendor protection site?

Are these two functions mutually exclusive?

wow, this thread has taken a lot of interesting twists and turns.

This is an interesting question of Moh''s.

I''m glad we''re not on the level of ''I just don''t like you'' anymore. As a mom of three that kind of thing makes me want to smack people''s heads together and yell, ''Just to go to your rooms and don''t come out until you can be nice to each other!''

For me, it''s interesting to read the discussion if information is being given that helps me to understand things. I actually think it is constructive that Judah began this thread. When Ellen lists specific reasons that she doesn''t respect RD, I can respect that--and also then RD can defend himself, which is also interesting to read. Sergey had some input that interested me, also and I liked the points that were brought up some time ago by the appraiser (I am sorry that I have forgotten his name). There was a point at which several people that I respect a lot for their input (Ellen, Lorelei and some others) spoke about why they do what they do, and how they will try to be careful to guard against certain things since reading this thread, and I respected them even more for taking criticism so well. I was also fascinated to hear that being on the listserv has inspired people to wish to take courses to get certified and become ''experts''.

Sergey wrote a while back that PS is ''sick'' which is rather a strong word in English, perhaps stronger than he realizes. I guess I see it more as that Pricescope is going into territory that no one has gone to before, and people are figuring it out as they go along, so there are bound to be glitches along the way, and in fact outright strife as everyone''s ideas and goals won''t ever totally mesh together. I repeat that I think that Moh has asked a very interesting question here. Can the board be ''a protection site'' for both consumers and vendors? I am also still interesting in a question I asked a while back, which I think only time will show the answer to. 8 years after PS was begun we know that it''s possible to buy beautiful stones over the internet safely if you stick to extremely stringent paper standards that leave a lot of stones out. Is it possible to find a way to include some of the stones which are beautiful but don''t fit the paper standards? I think everyone that has been contributing to this discussion agrees that such stones exist and I don''t think that I''m the only consumer who might be interested in them.

P.S. If my post offends anyone, I''m sorry, that''s not my intention. I don''t know any of you and am not making judgments about anyone or taking sides--I''m just really interested in this discussion and I like it when I see it going forward so that I can learn something, and I dislike it when it gets off track and personal rather than informative. I''ve been on PS a year but in a sort of off and on way and I guess, unlike many of you who seem to be ''friends'' (or the opposite) with each other, I don''t have any emotions invested in this community (except gratitude about being helped and an interest to learn more where I can).

just to add a small little opinion (and no I''m not offended by your post!) I don''t know what Sergey was implying, for I am not Sergey. But from my perspective, it seems like his post may have been caught up in the heat of this thread. perhaps another way of looking at his statement, or should I say, what I started to think after reading it, is to say that this particular PS thread started out in a generally healthy fashion, people bouncing ideas, and generally having good discussion. Then it got a sniffle, and came down with a cold, perhaps a bad one, sinus headache and body aches oh my! now we acknowledge the illness, and move on to healing it, while at the same time learning from that past experience. personally, I prefer to live in the now. although in the past harsh words may have been said and feelings may have been hurt, I do not need to carry that load as I move forward. I may use it as a reference point, but I do not wallow in it. all the time I really have is now, so why waste time, emotions, and energy dredging up the past? old things that don''t work fall away, while those that do get cultivated into new and better versions. I believe this can be applied to just about anything, be it personal life, social skills, scientific fields, or grading gemstones.

I did not mean for this to get so long or preachy... I just wanted to kindly add a different perspective, for no two people see the same situation in exactly the same way

 

[Black Jade]

Date: 7/27/2009 9:11:37 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker
Also, going off Sara''s point of buying a branded cut because....in a way, I think a lot of small businesses have benefited from PS.

Take my BF. When we met, he said he would only buy jewelry from Tiffany''s. His reason was because he has some very rich relatives who spent a very large amount of money at the ''highest esteemed'' jeweler in town. Well, they needed to get them re-appraised a few years later, and they discovered that all the pieces were mis-represented and not worth nearly the amount they paid. He told me he wanted a national chain that was known for reputation, and that Tiffany''s won''t ''mess with him.'' He also liked the look of their work.

Well over the last 2 years, he has been looking over my shoulder, and seeing rings that he like''s better than the one''s at Tiffanys. He really has an eye for custom made pieces, and has come to appreciate Leon and VC. He has also been amazed by the H&A, and has come to really like Brian Galvin. He is starting to see that if you know how to shop, you can find a family owned jewelry company that will give you a high quality product. I think the key to getting customers though PS is top quality costumer service, a transparent way to evaluate the diamonds, and well made pieces of jewelry, as well as competitive pricing.

Yes, I would agree with this, esepcially the last sentence. And I think the point has also been well-made in this thread that while you can''t recommend someone that you haven''t worked with, it''s also important to be careful about steering someone away from a vendor for no real reason. I was glad to see people saying that they will be careful about doing that.

One of the key, key things for me personally with any vendor on the internet is that they HAVE to have a good return policy with a reasonable window of time in which you can not only look at the stone and decide if you like it, but also have it appraised by a neutral party. 30 days is great (and seems to be pretty standard). I feel a little better about being adventuresome about stones with a good return policy, so I would just add that to your post (although its implied when you say ''top quality customer service'').

And while I like reading threads like this as a learning experience, vendors agreeing/not agreeing with each other or what posters think of vendors personally has no influence on me so far as deciding whether or not to shop with a vendor. And I think it has even less influence on most buyers, the very practical ones who wouldn''t bother to read this kind of thread. Since people do, however, pay a lot of attention to what others respond when they make a post asking a specific question, and assume that those who answer are neutral, it is great to see that that will be paid attention to. But it''s getting late and I''m being repetitive.
Best to all,

 

[strmrdr]

I am coming back in to answer the odd combination question.
Yes combinations outside the norm can be evaluated online given enough information.
Yes combinations outside the norm can be beautiful.. no one disputes that.

Where David and my disagreement is two parts.
He says trust the vendor.
I say take what the vendor says as one part of the puzzle but take a critical look at the rest of the data and get as much data as possible.
It is not an easy task and takes some knowledge to do that.
Some combinations will never make for a beautiful diamond and some might or might not.
The other option is having the diamond sent to an appraiser to look at with the consumer.
The other is rely on the return policy and take a look.
In the later case the consumer needs to make a critical evaluation because they are passing up the safety factor of known good combinations.
David has been challenged to come up with a good system to vet these outside the norm combos that is better than IS/ASET/DC/video pictures and all he has done is come back to trust the vendor.
That is disagreement one.

Disagreement 2 is how he treats consumers and how he interacts with them.

Frankly I can live with disagreement 1 but not the second.

 

[strmrdr]

I strongly disagree that one has to work with a vendor to recommend them.
Lets use an auto analogy.
There are 2 repair shops in town I ask someone which one is the best to take my car to.
One person says this one has treated 20 of my friends right.
That is a perfectly valid recommendation and should be given strong consideration.

In the same way a vendors reputation is built on PS.
A bunch of people combine their experiences to form an opinion on a vendor.
Like I said earlier a persons status in the trade counts for nothing here.
Their status with consumers is what counts.
That drives many people in the trade nuts but that is the past present and future of online buying at PS and tens of thousands of other forums dedicated to tens of thousands of different topics.
From guns to computers to cameras to diamonds that is the way it works online.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Black Jade- you''re amazing, even tired!


Storm- I really did mean it- I''d love to bury the hachet.
Let''s face it, you and I started out on a bad foot many years back- the first time I was on PS- I should take the blame.
Today, I would not have reacted as I did years back.

We still would see things differently, but I really do believe it''s possible to both contribute in a way that enriches the community, without insulting each other.

 

[Lula]

RD, wow, an olive branch?

 

[Richard Sherwood]

I LOVE THIS THREAD! Democracy at its best.

Andrey, my hat is off to you.

Black Jade, will you marry me?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 7/27/2009 9:42:24 PM
Author: strmrdr
I am coming back in to answer the odd combination question.
Yes combinations outside the norm can be evaluated online given enough information.
Yes combinations outside the norm can be beautiful.. no one disputes that.

Where David and my disagreement is two parts.
He says trust the vendor.
I say take what the vendor says as one part of the puzzle but take a critical look at the rest of the data and get as much data as possible.
It is not an easy task and takes some knowledge to do that.
Some combinations will never make for a beautiful diamond and some might or might not.
The other option is having the diamond sent to an appraiser to look at with the consumer.
The other is rely on the return policy and take a look.
In the later case the consumer needs to make a critical evaluation because they are passing up the safety factor of known good combinations.
David has been challenged to come up with a good system to vet these outside the norm combos that is better than IS/ASET/DC/video pictures and all he has done is come back to trust the vendor.
That is disagreement one.

Disagreement 2 is how he treats consumers and how he interacts with them.

Frankly I can live with disagreement 1 but not the second.

Storm- again- I'm asking this with all due respect- as I'd love to have peace.
Please don't state my position.
We actually agree in large part.
I never said' Trust the vendor"- in fact, I've spent a lot of time saying exactly the opposite.
For example, telling people NOT to trust EGL report- but that they can actually buy a diamond with an EGL report, if they find a vendor that they feel comfortable with that has the diamond in front of them and can assess it.
Another example is a link on almost every merchandise page to a tutorial about appraisal values, and how not to trust a sellers appraisal value if it's being used as a sales tool.
We discuss many other things online, and on the telephone to perspective clients that I'm sure you and I agree on.
If the challenge is to suggest an alternative method, then I'd say use your method minus the ASET/IS
Take those away and you have my method. Photos and video along with a trusted vendors opinion.
That's why I'm not a fan of drop shippers.
However if one was to buy from a seller who did not have the diamond, your methods (Karl) would be better.

I sincerely believe that the time spent researching a vendor is more important in most people's diamond lives as opposed to learning which crown/pavilion angle combination produces which result.
I sincerely apologize if that offends anyone who has spent time learning such data as I totally repsect you for it. To each his own!

The other part of your post which I so respectfully disagree with is the use of the term "consumers".
If you do not like the way I address forum participants that's one thing.
The consumers we deal with are probably afraid to post.

That was one reason I felt compelled to come back on.....

ETA: THIS IN NO WAY NULLIFIES MY APOLOGY TO STORM- I REALLY DO WANT TO COEXIST PEACEFULLY

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/27/2009 8:05:21 PM
Author: sarap333

Date: 7/27/2009 7:35:33 PM
Author: Moh 10
Is it possible for PS to be both a consumer protection site and a vendor protection site?


Are these two functions mutually exclusive?

Before this thread, I would have said yes, it's possible to be both. In an ideal world, what it best for one will benefit the other.

However, sadly, after reading all 10-plus pages of this thread, I have to say no. But this animosity seems to be isolated to a few parties and not representative of typical vendor-prosumer interaction. I'd like to believe that this is not representative of the PS I've grown to love.

One curious thing I've noticed: Whenever there appears to be some resolution and peace on this thread, RD shows up again to stir the pot. This is why I agreed with Storm's comment that RD's posts seem to have the goal of discrediting PS and causing doubt in the minds of newbies who may have had the bad luck to stumble upon this car wreck of a thread.

To those newbies, I say: Before you make a judgment about the veracity of a given prosumer or vendor, look carefully at the person's posting history, i.e., how long have they been a member of PS; how many posts have they written; do a search in the archives for their names, and read the history. You will learn a lot.

There are many vendors represented here who have earned their stellar reputations, though many years of committed service to the consumers on this site, and through fair play with other vendors. There are others who envy the good reputations of these 'recommended vendors' and cry foul.

I agree with you, Sara. When RD came on this board, my opinion of him was neutral. I now have a very negative opinion of him entirely based upon his interactions with other posters. As I have said before, RD seems convinced that reactions to him are never his fault and he takes no responsiblility for his behavior. He has caused major disruptions on this board and has become a corrosive influence. I know that I am repeating myself, but I think it is important to make this point. As part of my duties as clinical mental health counselor, I run therapy groups. One disruptive member can so negatively influence the rest of the group that it can make the group dysfunctional. If that individual's behavior cannot be moderated by the group process, I will terminate that member of the group and recommend individual counseling. I will not sacrifice the health and safety of the group for that one disruptive member. I truly believe that RD has become that disruptive to the health of PS. He takes away rather than adding to this site.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

I think a lot of you are not used to dealing with the likes of RockDiamond.

He is a New York diamond dealer, in the heart of the Diamond District, which is the center of the Universe regarding the diamond trade.

These guys tend to be a little, how should I say it.....aggressive in their manner. It's just who they are.

After 30 years in the diamond business, I don't even think twice about it. Doesn't bother me a bit.

Many here seem to be a bit thin-skinned in how they react to him though.

And while I'm at it.....the Russians. Serg, you are my favorite barbarian.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/27/2009 10:29:11 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
I think a lot of you are not used to dealing with the likes of RockDiamond.

He is a New York diamond dealer, in the heart of the Diamond District, which is the center of the Universe regarding the diamond trade.

These guys tend to be a little, how should I say it.....aggressive in their manner. It's just who they are.

After 30 years in the diamond business, I don't even think twice about it. Doesn't bother me a bit.

Many here seem to be a bit thin-skinned in how they react to him though.

And while I'm at it.....the Russians. Serg, you're my favorite barbarian.

I have, in fact, done business on 47th St. I have a friend in one of the vault-like offices above the street vendors. He is also one of the "trust me" kind of guys. The difference it that I don't have to listen to him being rude to me or anyone and everyone who crosses his path. I do know when I'm being schmoozed. After reading enough of RD's posts I want to say: "Please make the lambs stop screaming!!!"

ETA: RD is on PS and not in the Diamond District. His behavior on 47th St does not, IMO, excuse his actions on this board. Enough with the drama, already

 

[Lula]

Well...I used to work with NYC and Chicago trial attorneys, who tended to act like devils in depositions and like angels when presenting a case before a judge. A whole lot of posturing and chest-pounding going on in the depositions which magically disappeared before the judge. It IS possible to moderate your behavior when it counts.

 

[Kaleigh]

When you come here, all you have is what you write. The written word is a very powerful thing. Don''t blame us if we think you are being antagonistic tme and time again. It''s all in the delivery.. Your words last a lifetime on PS. Something to think about....

That goes for all of us..