your opinion about this diamond please :)

[Boom]

Is this the diamond?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=45399&item=2671157065

The seller seems to have quite a number of neutrals and negatives

Since they are located in Philly, it's probably safer to have oldminer take a look before you commit yourself.

Good luck!

 

[Richard Sherwood]

-------
igi stood the test of time, they have proven they are very reliable
and professional.
some people on this forum are contra-igi but they don't work with igi
on a regular basis, means they often have preconceived ideas about igi.
-------

Robbe, I think the difference in opinion you're encountering could arise from the fact that your experience is mainly with the Belgian IGI lab, and our experience is mainly with the New York IGI lab.

Giangi has pointed out several times that the Belgian IGI lab is a good one, as have you.

My experience with the NY IGI lab has, on the other hand, been rather disappointing.

 

[robbe]

mr. richard sherwood, i have indeed more business with igi belgium and india.


i know some of the owners and i can tell you all igi s are one and the same company.


the fact of the matter is you and others in here like to shoot at this company even before you have looked at the stone(s) being discussed. that is very disturbing to me and my clients who trade in certed stones, namely gia, hrd as well as igi.


i understand you are a lab?


consequently i take it you are in competition with igi, egl, ags and any other lab thus one should consider your opinion as void with regards to this issue.


robbe

 

[robbe]

guslik wrote


In my opinion this forum is very helpful for every buyer.
The only downside to it is that I have noticed tendency to turn down any purchase that is not from one of the vendors advertised on this forum. Any other vendor is suddenly "not reputable"


i fully agree with this notion.


robbe

 

[newenglandgemlab]

Hi Robbe,

Things seem to be a little heated on this topic. I still will continue to hold my opinion of the IGI but could you answer one question for me? Why the 'ficticious' prices on the reports? That alone puts the credibility in question. We are an ICGA lab and work solely for the consumer. Our main business is doing appraisals for insurance and for estates and we are happy to be the consumer's 'seeing eye dogs' when it comes to verifying reports. I have been in the jewelry business since 1972....doing appraisals since 1980....help me with the price question please!!

Cindy

 

[robbe]

newenglandgemlab,


you should ask your question to igi.


i suppose they are able to answer to this question.


remember, they have a reputation to defend, theirs as a lab and mine as a client.




but you see this is so typical again on this forum:


you heat up a subject by asking questions which will create a debate among people that never bothered to ask the question to the most relevant people to begin with, those involved, those who deliver the product of which you are having questions.




when my clients ask me this sort of questions or any other question for which i don't know the answers, i pick up the phone and call up the manager of the company in question... rather than speculating...you should do the same.




robbe

 

[canadiangrrl]

"i understand you are a lab?
consequently i take it you are in competition with igi, egl, ags and any other lab thus one should consider your opinion as void with regards to this issue."

The fact that you're a client of IGI's has no bearing whatsover on your opinion either, I'm sure.

 

[pricescope]

Robbe:

----------------
On 11/15/2003 10:12:34 AM robbe wrote:


newenglandgemlab,

you should ask your question to igi.

i suppose they are able to answer to this question.

remember, they have a reputation to defend, theirs as a lab and mine as a client.


but you see this is so typical again on this forum:

you heat up a subject by asking questions which will create a debate among people that never bothered to ask the question to the most relevant people to begin with, those involved, those who deliver the product of which you are having questions.


when my clients ask me this sort of questions or any other question for which i don't know the answers, i pick up the phone and call up the manager of the company in question... rather than speculating...you should do the same.


robbe


----------------

Funny enough, I asked directly a person from one of the major lab, why their appraising are so over-inflated that it makes them an instrument for dealers to sell diamonds claiming consumers are getting super deals...

The answer wasn't satisfactory at all. I realized we're all humans and aren't always at the top...

That's why open discussion, education and sharing information should have place. Neither of the major labs should be consider as the topmost authority. I agree with you about heated discussions though.

On the other hand, why major labs like GIA, IGI, AGS, and others not join discussions and explain to consumers their practices, standards and guaranties?

Is it because they are too conservative, or work for industry (not consumers), or too big and snobby to get down to consumers level?..

In this situation experts who openly participate in consumer education will get peoples respect and I think it is right and fair process.

 

[robbe]

hi leonid,


you wrote:


I asked directly a person from one of the major lab, why their appraising are so over-inflated.....


.......The answer wasn't satisfactory at all.




leonid, the fact that the answer wasn't satisfactory doesn't tell us what the answer was, it only tells us how you felt after getting the answer.


what was the answer?


regards, robbe

 

[pricescope]

----------------
what was the answer?
----------------

The answer was that the program and the database used for price determination are out of date. Would you consider this answer satisfactory, Robbe?

Again, I don't want to name the lab. My point is that if a company has nothing to hide, they would make it clear. Until then, they continue charging for not high quality service (to say the least).

This problem applies to any company in any industry. Many companies are still feeding consumers with "corporate" stuff. At the same time consumers are getting smarter than those companies and don't want to be spoon-fed anymore.

 

[robbe]

leonid,
i understand what you are saying but this doesn't explain everything.

concerning your question:
------------------------
On the other hand, why major labs like GIA, IGI, AGS, and others not join discussions and explain to consumers their practices, standards and guaranties?
Is it because they are too conservative, or work for industry (not consumers), or too big and snobby to get down to consumers level?..
------------------------

did you ever ask them to participate?
if yes, did you ask them why they wouldn't?
robbe

 

[pqcollectibles]

Gus~

This diamond may be the great buy you are hoping for. If you decide to give it a whirl, I hope it works out for you!

I'm an eBayer and have seen items listed by this seller before. Personally, I would avoid buying from this particular eBay seller based on both their eBay Feedback and Return/Refund Policies.

Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[Mikesgirl]

Hi all. My 2c. Again, as a consumer. If I am buying on the internet, sight unseen, and don't want to risk a lot of $, I would not consider any lab other than AGS or GIA. Why risk having to pay for several appraisals? Why risk having to return several stones? I'm not a risk taker. I'm willing to let those "too good to be true" diamonds (as this one might be) to those who like to gamble.

Many people have much experience with bad results from EGL and IGI. Many have good results. But AGS and GIA are more consistent, and therefore I consider it safer to shop them.

Now, Guslik - if the stone you are looking at is worth $1999, it's still a fine deal. The reality is that most of the consumers on this forum wouldn't be interested in a 1 carat stone that is worth only 1999, because it would be a poor quality. We assume, when you ask our opinion, that you are looking for a quality stone as well. Good luck!

 

[pricescope]

Robbe:

----------------
did you ever ask them to participate?
----------------

Yes, some of them.

----------------
if yes, did you ask them why they wouldn't?
----------------

No, because I know the answers: busy already so why bother, no staff available for the task, etc.

I also know they are reading

 

[Richard Sherwood]

-----------
mr. richard sherwood, i have indeed more business with igi belgium and india.
-----------

First let me say that it is not my intent to "heat up a subject", but rather discuss things amicably for the purposes of gaining and disseminating knowledge and education, which this forum is a great medium for doing so. In my opinion, uniquely so, and much needed.

Your comment above indicates that you are far more familiar with the IGI Belgium and India labs than the US lab, correct? Myself and some of the posters here are speaking from our experience with the IGI-NY lab, which I'm supposing is the lab which has certified this stone.

If this stone is IGI-NY certified as an H/SI2 and is selling for $1999, I have no doubt in my own mind that it is leniently graded. I would wager you a thousand dollars to that effect, if you're confident otherwise.

-----------
i know some of the owners and i can tell you all igi s are one and the same company.
-----------

Are the IGI labs franchises, like the EGL labs? If so, you can not make a blanket statement such as this. They would be different labs, with different owners. As is commonly known regarding the EGL franchise labs, some have a much better reputation for tighter grading than others. I think that is what we're seeing here. One IGI lab (the Belgian lab) has a much better reputation for tighter grading than the New York lab.

-----------
the fact of the matter is you and others in here like to shoot at this company even before you have
looked at the stone(s) being discussed.
-----------

The fact of the matter is that I have examined thousands of certed stones over 24 years and am quite familiar with the IGI cert and stones they represented. For a long time in the US the IGI cert was considered a joke among the industry, mostly used by ill-educated mall stores in selling to ill-educated consumers.

In the last decade, IGI has made a concerted effort to pull their reputation out of the gutter, and I applaud them. I have seen much better grading in these last few years than before. In my opinion, they are gaining ground on the EGL labs in credibility, but haven't quite gotten there yet.

-----------
that is very disturbing to me and my clients who trade in certed stones, namely gia, hrd as well as
igi.
-----------

Will you clients pay the same premium for an IGI certified stone as they would for a GIA or HRD stone? If not, why?

-----------
i understand you are a lab?
consequently i take it you are in competition with igi, egl, ags and any other lab thus one should
consider your opinion as void with regards to this issue.
-----------

Hah hah hah...

I'm not in competition with the "majors", but operate in the "niche" market of independent labs which people turn to when they want confirmation of the major's opinion, and questions answered which the major's certs don't address.

Even if I were to be considered in competition with the majors, that would not void my opinion any more than yours as a major user of the IGI certificate in your marketing.

Besides, you and I both know I'm too opinionated to shut up...

 

[newenglandgemlab]

If this stone is IGI-NY certified as an H/SI2 and is selling for $1999, I have no doubt in my own mind that it is leniently graded. I would wager you a thousand dollars to that effect, if you're confident otherwise.
-----------
New England Gem Lab would be happy to look at this stone at no charge to further this debate. We have two CGA's on staff and in this type of situation it helps to have two experienced opinions.




Besides, you and I both know I'm too opinionated to shut up...

Thank goodness!!!

Cindy

 

[valeria101]

Never mind: this wan meant as a comment for BOOM's post...


Realy, given the range of stuff these guys handle, this transaction will be exectly as buying from a road show, sight unseen

. I don't know if 22 negative reviews out of 3300 are bad thing (per month?!). This is bargain with every other detail that goes with it: meaning, the gamble. It sounds like, given what a diamond with these qualifications should otherwise go for, you gable 1.9K to either loose of win another 1.9K (or less, whatever). I would personally run away from this kind of business altogether, but if you are not so inclined... at least have a chat with them to see wether they would refund, what the process is, and get some idea how would they treat a mildly demanding customer. If you like the thrill as a bonus, it is your call.

 

[Mikesgirl]

Cindy

I've noticed more of your posts and I'm curious about you. Would you be willing to do a post on the Who's who so we can get to know you better?

 

[Mikesgirl]

Richard, I'm glad that you're too opinionated to shut up - particularly because you have such a fun loving, acerbic way of delivering your opinion and because it often reflects the opinions of others here in a concise and educated way. It's also nice to see some disagreement, though - keeps us thinking, questioning, learning . . .

 

[newenglandgemlab]

Hi Marty,

I have been considering doing just that. Now that you have asked, I most definitely will. Just a matter of finding a little time to write. I can be a bit bashful so it wasn't high on my priority list. Cindy

 

[robbe]

mr sherwood,


you wrote:


----------------------


First let me say that it is not my intent to "heat up a subject"


---------------------


oh really? so please explain us how you are not heating up a subject in your post in below's link? (just one coincident observation i saw the other day...)


https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/think-your-safe-with-gia-think-again.3083/}




---------------------


Myself and some of the posters here are speaking from our experience with the IGI-NY lab, which I'm supposing is the lab which has certified this stone.
--------------------


don't suppose so much, you suppose doesn't mean you know but mmeanwhile making believe everyone you know...when you don't.




--------------------


I would wager you a thousand dollars to that effect, if you're confident


-------------------


bets are open my friend.




--------------------


Are the IGI labs franchises, like the EGL labs?


--------------------


the answer is no. (and i do not suppose the answer, i know)




-------------------


As is commonly known regarding the EGL franchise labs, some have a much better reputation for tighter grading than others. I think that is what we're seeing here. One IGI lab (the Belgian lab) has a much better reputation for tighter grading than the New York lab.



------------------


apparently you are good at thinking and supposing. you are creating a false ambiance, a fake truth.




-----------------


In the last decade, IGI has made a concerted effort to pull their reputation out of the gutter, and I applaud them. I have seen much better grading in these last few years than before.


----------------


please tell me something i don't know. please.




----------------


Will you clients pay the same premium for an IGI certified stone as they would for a GIA or HRD stone? If not, why?
----------------


the eternal question! although i am selling igi stones in some qualities at the same price than hrd or gia nowadays, it is true that other qualities are not making the same value. same goes for hrd vs gia where hrd does not reach the gia value in some instances.


one reason is what you mentioned: igi improved alot the last ten years, so now their grading is reliable however the impact of the grading on pricing is following not as fast.


but look at the difference in value between hrd & igi 15 years ago and now. they are equal in almost all cases.




but most importantly, if people like you & others continue to hit on igi, when in fact the grading has been improved, how do you expect the premiums to improve? how do you expect people to understand that today isn't yesterday?


i can hear your 2000-posts-audience comment: "of course, if richard thinks this or that, it must be true!!!"




--------------------------


I'm not in competition with the "majors", but operate in the "niche" market of independent labs which people turn to when they want confirmation of the major's opinion, and questions answered which the major's certs don't address


---------------------------


good business however i am wondering if downgrading major's results and scaring consumers isn't what keeps you in business?




-----------------------


Even if I were to be considered in competition with the majors, that would not void my opinion any more than yours as a major user of the IGI certificate in your marketing.


----------------------


...except i am selling as much hrd & gia stones...and i don't grade for a living.




robbe

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Geez Robbe, did you major in debate at college?

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Robbe, let me ask you this. Have you seen any, or many IGI New York certs/stones?

If so, do you consider the NY grading comparable with the Belgian grading?

 

[Mikesgirl]

On this forum, calling Richard's integrity into doubt does not improve anyone elses integrity.

If Richard had a questionable reputation, he might have to overcome it, as IGI must. They earned their reputation and it is not an easy thing to overcome a dark history. If it is affecting your market, Robbe, I don't understand why you deal with them (really, and honest query - not intended to inflame).
I certainly understand your defending them if their quality is improving, but it is difficult for us consumers (particularly the pickier of us) to shop IGI on a newly polished reputation with AGS and GIA have longstanding ones. We rely on people with long histories in appraisal to guide us. And I am certain that it isn't easy for any appraiser to tell the purchaser that they didn't get what they thought they were paying for - how would that benefit the appraiser? (Again, an honest query) I'd be inclined to get a second opinion if I were told such a thing.

 

[robbe]

mr richard, i have seen them occasionally. there was nothing special about the grading that i can comment on.


robbe

 

[aljdewey]

Pardon me for pointing this out Robbe, but by your own admission, you have seen IGI NY stones "occasionally".....where Richard has seen "many, many" of them.




It seems to me that he has much more experience with stones from this particular lab--IGI NY--and I would tend to place more credence in his evaluation.




I'm sure your experience with IGI Belgium is exactly what you say it is. I just don't see how you feel there is basis to disagree with his experiences based on conjecture when you admittedly haven't seen many stones from IGI-NY.




I certainly respect differing opinions....I feel that's how we all learn....but an observation from a layman: It doesn't appear that you have any basis to be discounting Richard's opinion as biased because he's an appraiser, when you yourself also have a vested interest in the perception of the lab's quality. You depend on the lab's good reputation to help you sell your wares, and that seems much more vested interest than Richard's as an appraiser.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

-----------
mr richard, i have seen them occasionally. there was nothing special
about the grading that i can comment on. robbe
-----------

Okay. You have seen many IGI Belgian certed stones, and not too many IGI-NY certed stones.

I have seen many IGI-NY certed stones, and not too many IGI Belgian certed stones.

There was a year's stretch where I had as clients the Florida based chains of Sterling, Kayes, Whitehall, Marks & Morgan, Gordon's & Zales. Prior to that year I had viewed many IGI-NY cert stones over two decades. During that year I was literally inundated with IGI-NY cert stones which the mall stores were selling.

During that year I had continual problems with the stores because I refused to "rubber stamp" their IGI cert stones, instead grading them as I saw them. In my opinion, a large proportion of these stones were over-graded. Particularly in the I1 category, many of which IGI graded as SI2.

After a year I dropped all these chain stores as clients, in part due to this IGI "problem". The pressure from them for me to agree with the IGI certs was enormous, and the resulting tension when I wouldn't do it was just as enormous.

Because of this and my prior exposure to the IGI-NY cert, I consider myself knowledgable regarding it, just as you consider yourself knowledgable regarding IGI Belgium.

I have listened to your and Giangi's input regarding IGI Belgium, and take your information seriously. In the same breath however, I have to say that it does not resonate with my experience with IGI-NY.

Again, I am pleased to see considerable progress on the part of IGI-NY in tightening their grading quality control, and applaud that effort. In my opinion, however, they still have quite a bit of ground to regain in this area.

Perhaps we can agree to monitor the situation, and report any positive or negative trends we see regarding it. Nothing would please me more than to see the IGI-NY lab issuing grades which stood up to GIA, AGS or HRD standards.

All the best,

 

[robbe]

mr richard,




Perhaps we can agree to monitor the situation, and report any positive or negative trends we see regarding it. Nothing would please me more than to see the IGI-NY lab issuing grades which stood up to GIA, AGS or HRD standards.




ok, regards, robbe