Yet another Southern state "reopening" even though cases are still rising

[OreoRosies86]

I guess that it’s safer not to quote a death rate


Are you suggesting that all one million people were hospitalized for covid, when cdc Indicates that 80 percent exhibit mild symptoms at best?

Like I said I am in one of the top three hardest hit spots in the country. So no, I am not saying that one million people were hospitalized for covid because I actually follow data and stay on top of the news. What I am saying is that unlike flu, this particular virus was not spread out over a season. This hit all at once in a matter of weeks, and it should be up to states most affected to decide proper judgment for protocol. Life goes on, except for the people who die, and then it doesn’t. I would not want to be one of those people so I do not have a cavalier attitude about even seemingly excessive precautions.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

Do you have a source for that

Yes, I do

COVID-19 Outbreak Associated with Air Conditioning in Restaurant, Guangzhou, China, 2020

COVID-19 Outbreak Associated with Air Conditioning in Restaurant, Guangzhou, China, 2020

wwwnc.cdc.gov

 

[chemgirl]

Those who are elderly or otherwise immuned compromised will need to be cautious and stay home for a long time, I am afraid. But the rest need to gradually return to work using social distancing before a massive number of businesses go under, people lose jobs, homes, mental health, and lives due to suicide or abuse.

Every area is different and should be opened as appropriate. My whole state with over over 10 million people only has around 300 deaths related to the virus (many not the primary cause). We have basically been shut down for 6 weeks at this point. In my county, there are 8 active cases of CV total and zero deaths. We flattened the curve so much that there are doctor practices that have shut down and many doctors and nurses are laid off from hospitals and private practices. I have two friends in my neighborhood who are a PA and NP, and one was laid off and the other's practice closed permanently. Their families are dependent on their incomes and unemployment won't come close to replacing their incomes. It's going to devastate those with lower incomes who live from paycheck to paycheck and need to work. Our county should be one of the first to reopen businesses with precautions taken. If there haven't been hot spots created by Walmart and other big "essential" stores being open by now, it clearly isn't spreading like wildfire. We only have about 3 counties in our entire state that need to delay opening longer and open more slowly (and their numbers are still low compared to population), yet our governor made 1 order for the entire state extending the shutdown. I am sure I know why, but won't go there.

I fully support those who prefer to wear masks just as I fully support those who do not. I have read too many articles by doctors who have said the cloth homemade masks and surgical masks are totally worthless and may cause more harm than good due to people touching them to adjust them and then touching things in a store, taking off and putting back on, etc. I think some people just need the illusion of safety and that's okay for them. I'll continue to be cautious in what I choose to do personally (I won't go to the store if I have a cough or am sick), but I also understand that this virus isn't likely to go away until there is herd immunity, so many more people are going to get it. You may delay it a little with all the social distancing and other precautions, but that's it. We need the freedom to choose to stay home or go to work safely in areas with low number of cases. Most are not lucky enough to get to work from home, and not everyone can get unemployment.

Just a comment re:masks. They’re not really meant to protect the wearer. Mask laws are about bringing down R0. Masks can trap moisture from the wearer and prevent SOME viral particles from becoming suspended in the air. It’s a public good thing, not a personal protection thing.

In theory, if everyone wore a mask, the transmission rate would decrease.

For personal safety, it’s important to learn how to remove the mask without touching it or your face. Clean your hands before and after touching it. Also change the mask fairly often to prevent bacteria from growing on it (seeing a lot of people with raggedy old masks). This is why cloth masks are a good alternative, you can wash them. I don’t wear mine in my car or anything like that. Only when I’m going to be around people. I remove it as soon as I’m back in my car.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

Just a comment re:masks. They’re not really meant to protect the wearer. Mask laws are about bringing down R0. Masks can trap moisture from the wearer and prevent SOME viral particles from becoming suspended in the air. It’s a public good thing, not a personal protection thing.

In theory, if everyone wore a mask, the transmission rate would decrease.

For personal safety, it’s important to learn how to remove the mask without touching it or your face. Clean your hands before and after touching it. Also change the mask fairly often to prevent bacteria from growing on it (seeing a lot of people with raggedy old masks). This is why cloth masks are a good alternative, you can wash them. I don’t wear mine in my car or anything like that. Only when I’m going to be around people. I remove it as soon as I’m back in my car.

This!!!!

Should be just common sense, but nobody seems to care /understand/care to understand...

 

[DAF]

In New Jersey our governor announce a few days ago that the state may begin to re-open around Memorial Day (end of May), only if six outlined points are met, the most important of which are reduction in hospitalizations, reduction of new cases, and reduction in deaths. I'm hoping another month of social isolation will contribute to the decline, but I think it's imperative that precautions continue to be observed.

I posited to my boss the other day that even if we reopen, will there be patients to see. I would think they were going to be the most cautious and I said no. He agreed with me.

 

[DAF]

I think that is similar to the death rate I am hearing about in NJ.

The death rate is horrible in NJ. I'm so happy I live in the 'burbs of Central New Jersey.

 

[yennyfire]

Just a comment re:masks. They’re not really meant to protect the wearer. Mask laws are about bringing down R0. Masks can trap moisture from the wearer and prevent SOME viral particles from becoming suspended in the air. It’s a public good thing, not a personal protection thing.

In theory, if everyone wore a mask, the transmission rate would decrease.

For personal safety, it’s important to learn how to remove the mask without touching it or your face. Clean your hands before and after touching it. Also change the mask fairly often to prevent bacteria from growing on it (seeing a lot of people with raggedy old masks). This is why cloth masks are a good alternative, you can wash them. I don’t wear mine in my car or anything like that. Only when I’m going to be around people. I remove it as soon as I’m back in my car.

Chemgirl, can you tell me how to take them off safely? I’ve made about 250 to donate to area hospitals and two for myself...one to wash, one to wear. I made them with t-shirt ties and when I get to the car, I untie them and remove only touching the tie. Then I Purell my hands and then use an antibacterial wipe to clean my keys, door handle, steering wheel, etc. When I get home, I use the t-shirt tie to carry the mask inside and it goes straight into the washing machine. Then I wash my hands. Am I doing this as safely as possible or do you have a different method? I haven’t wanted to bother my dr. friends to ask, but you seem to know what you’re talking about!

 

[missy]

In New Jersey our governor announce a few days ago that the state may begin to re-open around Memorial Day (end of May), only if six outlined points are met, the most important of which are reduction in hospitalizations, reduction of new cases, and reduction in deaths. I'm hoping another month of social isolation will contribute to the decline, but I think it's imperative that precautions continue to be observed.

I posited to my boss the other day that even if we reopen, will there be patients to see. I would think they were going to be the most cautious and I said no. He agreed with me.

I am anxiously awaiting my husband’s kidney stone procedure. His urologist is in NJ and we’re just waiting. His stones are a ticking time bomb but no hospital will schedule unless we go through the ER. Just spoke with his urologist now. The hospitals are refusing all kidney stone procedures.

The death rate is horrible in NJ. I'm so happy I live in the 'burbs of Central New Jersey.

Yes. Terrible here and NY too.
@DAF stay safe and well.

 

[missy]

Chemgirl, can you tell me how to take them off safely? I’ve made about 250 to donate to area hospitals and two for myself...one to wash, one to wear. I made them with t-shirt ties and when I get to the car, I untie them and remove only touching the tie. Then I Purell my hands and then use an antibacterial wipe to clean my keys, door handle, steering wheel, etc. When I get home, I use the t-shirt tie to carry the mask inside and it goes straight into the washing machine. Then I wash my hands. Am I doing this as safely as possible or do you have a different method? I haven’t wanted to bother my dr. friends to ask, but you seem to know what you’re talking about!

Wash your hands before removing the mask handling it by the ties not touching the mask. Then wash your hands again and wash your face too. Also remove your shoes before going inside so you don’t bring it in that way. And yes clean everything you touched with a disinfecting wipe. Phone keys etc. You’re doing it right.

@yennyfire thank you for all your hard work and donating so many masks!

 

[Arcadian]

@yennyfire Go girl!! Love that you are making masks! and yes you're doing it right. I never wear in my car, only if I get out of my car. Not that I go all that many places these days!! But still, when I take it off, I take off with the ties or elastic. I wear a head scarf so I don't touch my hair and if using elastic, it won't get caught in my hair but thats a me thing. Sometimes my scarf matches my mask . I rotate 3, depending on where I am and where I go. And, if your mask does not get wet or moist, put it in a bag for 3 days and you'll be fine. sometimes I sit mine outside to dry, then baggie it.

Once it becomes moist and/or worn more than 4 hours, then its time to wash. If I do consumer masks I send an instruction sheet because people really don't know. If I send to a facility, I don't bother sending instructions, they have their own SOP to follow.

 

[OreoRosies86]

I am anxiously awaiting my husband’s kidney stone procedure. His urologist is in NJ and we’re just waiting. His stones are a ticking time bomb but no hospital will schedule unless we go through the ER. Just spoke with his urologist now. The hospitals are refusing all kidney stone procedures.




Yes. Terrible here and NY too.
@DAF stay safe and well.

Keep hanging in there, missy. I’m sure the anxiety is off the charts.

 

[yennyfire]

@yennyfire Go girl!! Love that you are making masks! and yes you're doing it right. I never wear in my car, only if I get out of my car. Not that I go all that many places these days!! But still, when I take it off, I take off with the ties or elastic. I wear a head scarf so I don't touch my hair and if using elastic, it won't get caught in my hair but thats a me thing. Sometimes my scarf matches my mask . I rotate 3, depending on where I am and where I go. And, if your mask does not get wet or moist, put it in a bag for 3 days and you'll be fine. sometimes I sit mine outside to dry, then baggie it.

Once it becomes moist and/or worn more than 4 hours, then its time to wash. If I do consumer masks I send an instruction sheet because people really don't know. If I send to a facility, I don't bother sending instructions, they have their own SOP to follow.

@missy yes, I leave the one pair of shoes I’ve been wearing in the garage and strip my clothes off in the mud room and drop in the wash...
I hope that DH gets the procedure he needs ASAP. I can imagine how stressful the waiting is...
@Arcadian are you saying that if I don’t wear it for more than 4 hours, it doesn’t need washing and if I leave it in a ziploc for 3 days, I don’t need to wash it at all? I get that maybe the virus dies if suffocated in plastic for 3 days, but I’m not sure I understand the less than 4 hour thing? I’m probably going to take the time to make myself a couple more masks...so far, I’ve been so busy making for healthcare workers, friends and neighbors, that my husband and kids each have one and I have two (of course, I’m the only one who’s left the house to go to the grocery...otherwise, we’ve all been home)...

 

[Queenie60]

@Arcadian and @yennyfire - Thank you for all of your mask making, both of you are wonderful, lovely ladies.

 

[chemgirl]

Chemgirl, can you tell me how to take them off safely? I’ve made about 250 to donate to area hospitals and two for myself...one to wash, one to wear. I made them with t-shirt ties and when I get to the car, I untie them and remove only touching the tie. Then I Purell my hands and then use an antibacterial wipe to clean my keys, door handle, steering wheel, etc. When I get home, I use the t-shirt tie to carry the mask inside and it goes straight into the washing machine. Then I wash my hands. Am I doing this as safely as possible or do you have a different method? I haven’t wanted to bother my dr. friends to ask, but you seem to know what you’re talking about!

I’m definitely no expert, but I have a Tupperware in my car, I lean forward over the container and unhook my ears so that the mask ends up inside. If you have to touch the mask a bit, but you clean your hands it should be ok. It’s just not great to touch your face. Clean the hand that you use to untie the mask before you do it and make sure you don’t touch the front surface using that hand.

I’m basing this off of how we deal with chemical masks at work. We always lean forward to take them off and avoid skin contact as much as possible.

 

[DAF]

I am anxiously awaiting my husband’s kidney stone procedure. His urologist is in NJ and we’re just waiting. His stones are a ticking time bomb but no hospital will schedule unless we go through the ER. Just spoke with his urologist now. The hospitals are refusing all kidney stone procedures.




Yes. Terrible here and NY too.
@DAF stay safe and well.

Ouch! So sorry they won't do the procedure for the kidney stones. I hope his discomfort is bearable.

 

[missy]

Ouch! So sorry they won't do the procedure for the kidney stones. I hope his discomfort is bearable.

Thank you. So far he’s ok. Fingers crossed we can wait til the hospitals open up for these procedures.

 

[Arcadian]

@missy yes, I leave the one pair I’ve shoes I’ve been wearing in the garage and strip my clothes off in the mud room and drop in the wash...
I hope that DH gets the procedure he needs ASAP. I can imagine how stressful the waiting is...
@Arcadian are you saying that if I don’t wear it for more than 4 hours, it doesn’t need washing and if I leave it in a ziploc for 3 days, I don’t need to wash it at all? I get that maybe the virus dies if suffocated in plastic for 3 days, but I’m not sure I understand the less than 4 hour thing? I’m probably going to take the time to make myself a couple more masks...so far, I’ve been so busy making for healthcare workers, friends and neighbors, that my husband and kids each have one and I have two (of course, I’m the only one who’s left the house to go to the grocery...otherwise, we’ve all been home)...

In general, cotton masks can get soaked through in about 4 hours because the nature of the fiber. Thats a rough estimate, some it can be sooner. But by that time, yes, you really want to wash to prevent the growth of bacteria and also to catch any virus that might be embedded in the mask itself.

If you're the type that sweats, just wash the mask...lol But in general if you're wearing a mask for short trips, and its not wet or moist, then sure, its OK to put the mask in a bag for 3 days (and this is why you want to have enough to rotate) because any virus on it will die by then.

 

[Bonfire]

With careful handling you don’t need to launder your mask daily (You can if you want of course) unless you wear it for long periods of time, not for a quick dash in the store. After careful removal (only touching the strings or elastic bands), place in a paper bag not in anything plastic. I wash my pleated cotton masks in the washing machine, normal cycle and air dry. Then I iron using steam setting.
ETA: Typing as you were Arcadian. Sorry if I repeated what you already said. Don’t store in plastic though, use paper bags. Covid19 can live longer in plastic.

 

[Rockdiamond]

OMG please send "Mr Missy" our best.....kidney stones can be so painful!! I hope he's ok.

I am anxiously awaiting my husband’s kidney stone procedure. His urologist is in NJ and we’re just waiting. His stones are a ticking time bomb but no hospital will schedule unless we go through the ER. Just spoke with his urologist now. The hospitals are refusing all kidney stone procedures.

 

[Dee*Jay]

So far I've only gotten my hands on disposable masks. If I wear one to the store, then carefully remove it and put it in a paper bag (or lean forward and drop it in a big tupperware container and leave it on the floor of my car) for at least three days, can it be reused?

(Sorry if that's a stupid question -- I feel like everyone else knows more about this than I do!)

ETA: I should probably post this question in the face mask thread. Oops!

 

[gm89uk]

It greatly saddens me to see people with intelligence of @OoohShiny still compare this to seasonal flu. I am a front line worker and have already lost 4 colleagues that have spent at least several decades in the NHS. Several are on ventilators.
Three family friends were recently admitted to ITU, 1 did not make it, 1 is fighting for his life and the third thankfully has been discharged.

I know of several young fit and well colleagues that have had typical COVID-19 signs and symptoms that tested negative. I know of reports of patients highly suggestive of COVID-19 repeatedly tested negative but eventually came back positive.

Although the PCR is extremely specific, it's sensitivity is highly reliant on getting a positive swab which is additionally operator dependent .

The recent UK inclusion of non-hospital deaths greatly increased our total today. That is only for COVID-19 positive swabs and considering our government strategy has been to only test hospital admissions you can imagine the vast under reporting of this figure. In all my career and all my colleagues we've never seen anything like it. I don't trust the figures because they wildly vary and are grossly inaccurate due to the current testing strategies and variation between countries. I believe what I see, and what all my colleagues have echoed that this is a completely different animal, especially demographics that don't normally struggle with flu.

The CDC estimate 18,000 deaths from September to March in this flu season with 35 million infected. So far in the US has 60k+ deaths in far less time. The scale at which this moves means most articles are outdated as the weeks go by.

Sure in time, as more of the population becomes exposed I'm hopeful the mortality rate will reduce.

A country does not commit financial and economic suicide on something they thought was seasonal flu.

I don't understand why people are complaining about others going out in public I mean you yourself have a choice of staying at home for the rest of your life. No one is pointing a gun to your head saying that you must take the risk of contracting the virus.

If I needed groceries I'm going to the grocery store or if I don't feel like cooking I'm gonna order to go, and if the restaurants were to reopen today I would go out for coffee at noon then lunch at 1:00 like I alway have before the lockdown.

Unfortunately this shows gross ignorance and misunderstanding in basic public health measures. There are plenty of resources that explain this and I'm sure you are more than capable of understanding these concepts if you put in the effort to read them.

Ultimately, you can try to justify western privacy values and protest as much as you want. In South Korea, in many parts you wouldn't be allowed on the bus if you weren't wearing a mask. They had bad press regarding privacy concerns for their contact tracing. The results speak for themselves. Ultimately through much more rigorous testing, and 'intrusion of privacy', they managed to maintain their economy far better, and how many less families are mourning the death of their loved ones?

The biggest danger of this virus is to disrespect it.

 

[chrono]

Our disposable masks are one use only.

 

[nala]

It greatly saddens me to see people with intelligence of @OoohShiny still compare this to seasonal flu. I am a front line worker and have already lost 4 colleagues that have spent at least several decades in the NHS. Several are on ventilators.
Three family friends were recently admitted to ITU, 1 did not make it, 1 is fighting for his life and the third thankfully has been discharged.

I know of several young fit and well colleagues that have had typical COVID-19 signs and symptoms that tested negative. I know of reports of patients highly suggestive of COVID-19 repeatedly tested negative but eventually came back positive.

Although the PCR is extremely specific, it's sensitivity is highly reliant on getting a positive swab which is additionally operator dependent .

The recent UK inclusion of non-hospital deaths greatly increased our total today. That is only for COVID-19 positive swabs and considering our government strategy has been to only test hospital admissions you can imagine the vast under reporting of this figure. In all my career and all my colleagues we've never seen anything like it. I don't trust the figures because they wildly vary and are grossly inaccurate due to the current testing strategies and variation between countries. I believe what I see, and what all my colleagues have echoed that this is a completely different animal, especially demographics that don't normally struggle with flu.

The CDC estimate 18,000 deaths from September to March in this flu season with 35 million infected. So far in the US has 60k+ deaths in far less time. The scale at which this moves means most articles are outdated as the weeks go by.

Sure in time, as more of the population becomes exposed I'm hopeful the mortality rate will reduce.

A country does not commit financial and economic suicide on something they thought was seasonal flu.



Unfortunately this shows gross ignorance and misunderstanding in basic public health measures. There are plenty of resources that explain this and I'm sure you are more than capable of understanding these concepts if you put in the effort to read them.

Ultimately, you can try to justify western privacy values and protest as much as you want. In South Korea, in many parts you wouldn't be allowed on the bus if you weren't wearing a mask. They had bad press regarding privacy concerns for their contact tracing. The results speak for themselves. Ultimately through much more rigorous testing, and 'intrusion of privacy', they managed to maintain their economy far better, and how many less families are mourning the death of their loved ones?

The biggest danger of this virus is to disrespect it.

Hi. There is a poll on government surveillance during Covid times in this forum. The majority voted for. Middle ground. Would you say South Korea achieved their results using a middle ground approach?

 

[telephone89]

For masks, if you keep some hand sanitizer in the car I find this the easiest:
-Sanitize hands
-Put on mask
-Santize again

To remove
-Sanitize hands
-Lean forward, and grab BOTH loops at the same time so the mask falls straight down (into your container or bag)
-Sanitize hands again

This way you are always touching the mask with clean hands, and if the mask is dirty/contaminated your hands are clean after touching it.

 

[telephone89]

Hi. There is a poll on government surveillance during Covid times in this forum. The majority voted for. Middle ground. Would you say South Korea achieved their results using a middle ground approach?

I don't think anything that SK is doing is considered a middle ground. They were tracking people by cell phones and transit passes. My friend lives there, and if they had an active case nearby she got a message from the govt with a full list of where this person went and at what time. (ex Monday ap 27 9:00 am 7-11 at XYZ street, 9:15 Coffee shop at XYZ street, 10:00 am Dr office at ABC street).

On the privacy thread I was all for this. It's extremely convenient for people who may have been exposed to know, and to self isolate if they visited any of these areas. But it seemed like many on that thread would feel this is too far.

eta - I believe the govt was also paying people who were out of work by isolation and may have even delivered groceries for them - I cant recall if that was the case, or if their delivery services are just much more robust because of the dense population. Many people used food/grocery delivery in the area even before this.

 

[nala]

I don't think anything that SK is doing is considered a middle ground. They were tracking people by cell phones and transit passes. My friend lives there, and if they had an active case nearby she got a message from the govt with a full list of where this person went and at what time. (ex Monday ap 27 9:00 am 7-11 at XYZ street, 9:15 Coffee shop at XYZ street, 10:00 am Dr office at ABC street).

On the privacy thread I was all for this. It's extremely convenient for people who may have been exposed to know, and to self isolate if they visited any of these areas. But it seemed like many on that thread would feel this is too far.

Yes. I have to say that I was shocked by those results.

 

[gm89uk]

Hi. There is a poll on government surveillance during Covid times in this forum. The majority voted for. Middle ground. Would you say South Korea achieved their results using a middle ground approach?

An effective approach we cannot deny; middle ground is subjective.

Though many of their services are shut down such as churches etc, they are able to go to restaurants and live a modified normal, a life many would wish for in the current climate with far less deaths. On the flip side we don't receive texts telling us our neighbours have COVID-19. Depends what part of middle ground you value. But when all is said and done, it is still effective.

 

[missy]

It greatly saddens me to see people with intelligence of @OoohShiny still compare this to seasonal flu. I am a front line worker and have already lost 4 colleagues that have spent at least several decades in the NHS. Several are on ventilators.
Three family friends were recently admitted to ITU, 1 did not make it, 1 is fighting for his life and the third thankfully has been discharged.

I know of several young fit and well colleagues that have had typical COVID-19 signs and symptoms that tested negative. I know of reports of patients highly suggestive of COVID-19 repeatedly tested negative but eventually came back positive.

Although the PCR is extremely specific, it's sensitivity is highly reliant on getting a positive swab which is additionally operator dependent .

The recent UK inclusion of non-hospital deaths greatly increased our total today. That is only for COVID-19 positive swabs and considering our government strategy has been to only test hospital admissions you can imagine the vast under reporting of this figure. In all my career and all my colleagues we've never seen anything like it. I don't trust the figures because they wildly vary and are grossly inaccurate due to the current testing strategies and variation between countries. I believe what I see, and what all my colleagues have echoed that this is a completely different animal, especially demographics that don't normally struggle with flu.

The CDC estimate 18,000 deaths from September to March in this flu season with 35 million infected. So far in the US has 60k+ deaths in far less time. The scale at which this moves means most articles are outdated as the weeks go by.

Sure in time, as more of the population becomes exposed I'm hopeful the mortality rate will reduce.

A country does not commit financial and economic suicide on something they thought was seasonal flu.



Unfortunately this shows gross ignorance and misunderstanding in basic public health measures. There are plenty of resources that explain this and I'm sure you are more than capable of understanding these concepts if you put in the effort to read them.

Ultimately, you can try to justify western privacy values and protest as much as you want. In South Korea, in many parts you wouldn't be allowed on the bus if you weren't wearing a mask. They had bad press regarding privacy concerns for their contact tracing. The results speak for themselves. Ultimately through much more rigorous testing, and 'intrusion of privacy', they managed to maintain their economy far better, and how many less families are mourning the death of their loved ones?

The biggest danger of this virus is to disrespect it.

I am so sorry @gm89uk for all your loss. And thank you for being so brave to continue working on the front lines. We can never repay all those who work selflessly at great risk to their own lives.
I agree completely with your post. So many intelligent people underestimating the horror of this virus. There are people here in NYC (one of the hardest hit areas) still not wearing masks and still not practicing social distancing. I am also quite sure the deaths from Covid have been underestimated and perhaps in time we will realize the full extent of this nightmare and the death toll amassed.

Stay safe and be well and thank you again.

 

[Niffler75]

@gm89uk I am sorry for your loss and my thoughts are with you and your family.
As a nurse myself (not currently practicing) I was concerned about this virus when reports were coming out at the end of January.
I think we are on a very steep learning curve and sadly we have yet to learn a lot about this virus!
Take care x

 

[chemgirl]

Because we were talking about masks