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Wow - Very Dismayed with Whiteflash experience

PepperT

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i figured I would probably send it back to Brian Gavin. I didn't want to sell it privately as Brian Gavin's buy-back is 70%. Whiteflash offered to match Brian Gavin's buy-back , so I figured 'why not?' If I had known at the time what I've now been told by Whiteflash, I would have declined Whiteflash's offer and sent it back to Brian Gavin. Brian Gavin would have sent me a check for 70% of purchase price.
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
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arkieb1|1445729038|3941765 said:
I don't understand why you didn't sell the original stone from Brian Gavin privately i.e on here in the preloved section because it is probably the reason it voided any other upgrades. Hopefully someone from Whiteflash will respond the company usually goes out of their way within reason to make their customers happy.

I don't think it voids other upgrades, it just means the portion of the money she got for selling her old diamond to WF cannot be added into the upgrade pot that the rest of her ring is in. She can still upgrade the diamond but will receive less, only the amount of money she put in will be given back. They already bought her ring off her the first time and it is not upgradable as it is not one of their products.
 

gm89uk

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After reading this thread, I would have to be in the camp that would have reacted similarly to the OP. I do not take that from the wording policy on the website. This is an unfortunate outcome to what was initially a very generous deal.
 

PepperT

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I have strong reason to believe my diamond did not end up in a garbage can or end up being sold at any loss.
 

kb1gra

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I'm so confused by all the responses that this makes sense.

You buy a new car. You trade in your old car and lay out cash for the rest. You have now purchased a car for $20,000, paid $15,000 in cash, and the dealer has received your old car, worth $5000 (probably plus some as they're going to make money when they sell it) and your $15,000 in cash. You and the dealer agree that you can trade in the car you just bought down the line for $15,000.

Three years later you go back into the dealer and you want to trade in your car.

Dealer now says you will only get $10,000 for your car, because you didn't pay the full amount for the first one.

Except you did. You lost $15,000 in cash plus your old car, and the dealer gained $15,000 in cash plus your old car.

So now, the dealer is saying that they get your old car for free, because they gave you the money last time, so now they need to collect it from you this time - except YOU GAVE THEM YOUR CAR FOR IT.

The only way this possibly works is if you got some kind of ACTUAL discount - a cash discount - that you did not provide anything in exchange for. If you gave them something in exchange for the money, that is double dipping.

Frankly, this has encouraged me not to do business with this vendor, at all - and I'm confused by the rabid defense of a policy that was NOT stated, nor does it make ANY sense, nor is it FAIR to the consumer, and further that you're all telling her what she SHOULD have done instead so as to not be in this situation, when I think it's pretty clear that she did not anticipate this situation.

I think she is being ripped off for the $1600 and change and I eagerly anticipate Whiteflash's explanation of how they can receive a diamond, provide a cash value for it, and then refuse to recognize that cash value in a later transaction - while they still have either the stone or the money from the sale of the stone.
 

pyramid

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So if you bought a piano off me for $3000 last year would it be okay if I phoned you 2 years later and said I sold you a piano in 2014 and you paid me $3000 so can you give me another $3000 now for the same piano again please? Why would you pay twice for 1 traded in ring?
 

Veltiesmom

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Pyramid|1445734861|3941798 said:
So if you bought a piano off me for $3000 last year would it be okay if I phoned you 2 years later and said I sold you a piano in 2014 and you paid me $3000 so can you give me another $3000 now for the same piano again please? Why would you pay twice for 1 traded in ring?

Because when OP goes to upgrade in 2 years, s/he has to give the original diamond BACK. And then gets credit for what s/he paid. So in your scenario, in 2 years, you would be trading in the original piano in exchange for $3000 credit toward a new one. The seller doesn't lose out because he gets the original piano back, which is worth $3K.

The issue being discussed here is that OP won't be getting any credit for the value of the original stone when s/he goes to utilize the upgrade policy down the road. It's like this:

You want to buy a piano for me, and the piano is $5K. You say hey, I have this great piano I'm not using any more. And I take a look and say great, your old piano is worth $3K, and i really want you to buy this new piano. So I'll give you $3K for the old piano if you buy the new one. So you give me your old piano and $2K, and I give you the $5K piano. Then in 2 years you come back and say, I hate this $5K piano. I'd like to use your 100% trade in policy to buy this $7K piano instead. You would expect to be able to give me the $5K piano plus $2K, and get the new more expensive piano.

But what is happening to OP is that seller is in effect saying, no, we are only going to give you $2K worth of credit for that $5K piano - because even though the piano is actually WORTH $5K, you only paid $2K in cash. The rest was what lawyers call "in kind" (ie, the trade in of the old piano/diamond). So OP loses $3K in value for no reason. For this reason the WF policy seems unfair, and the reality is that OP will never be able to take advantage of the upgrade policy, because s/he will lose the entire value of the original diamond by doing so.
 

pyramid

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I am meaning that in two years time I just ask for another $3000 dollars nothing being traded that was 2 years ago I sold the piano to you but I want another $3000 from you again, that is what I feel is being asked for money again for a diamond which was not in the upgrade policy, the policy is for ACA diamonds but they were lenient on a one off basis by helping the customer out so she could add the money to enable them to get a sale. Fair trade nothing to do with the upgrade policy which is still only for ACA diamonds. Same as I said when you upgrade if prices have risen you don't get current value only what you paid years ago. There has to be something in it for the jeweller as well as customer. Buy diamond for $5000 trade up for $ 9000 diamond in 3 years, get $5000 back, pay $4000 for new diamond. Whiteflash re-certs old diamond and sells for $7000. You don't get that $2000 more your old diamond is worth now, WF does. Why are people not complaining there then?
 

PepperT

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Kb1gra,

Yes. That's it! You understand what's happening here!


To those who seem to not understand what's happened. Let me see if I can do the math to better explain.

$7,584.00 list price for 1.24 Whiteflash diamond.
$725.00 list price for setting
7,584.00 + $725.00 = $8,309.00

That is the total list cost of diamond and setting I purchased from Whiteflash.

They offered a couple of discounts.
New customer discount: 25.00
Wire Discount 194.34

Total discount: 219.34

List price of diamond and setting 8,309.00
minus discounts -219.34
_________
Total price of new diamond and setting W/discounts: 8,089.66
offered by Whiteflash


This 8,089,66 reoresents the amount I OWED for the diamond and setting.
Here is how Whiteflash collected that amount from me:

Brian Gavin diamond (they took ownership of my BG diamond) 1,631.00 1,631.00
Old setting they purchased from me (they took ownership) 175.00 1,806.00
Charge to my credit card to hold the Whiteflash diamond 250.00 2,056.00
Wire transfer from me to Whiteflash 6,033.66 8,089.66

I put a running cumulative total to the far right so you can see how Whiteflash was compensated by ME up to the total amout owed.

They accepted ownership of my Brian Gavin diamond as a payment towards one of their diamonds.
This is reflected in how the diamond was purchased. THEY NEVER gave me actual money for it, They applied that amount as payment towards the purchase of the one I bought from them.

Now, if you look at the total charge I was responsible for which is 8,089.66, and flat out deduct the full 725.00 price of the setting to make life easier, I compensated Whiteflash $7,364.66 for the diamond.

Basically, out of that $7,364.66 that I compensated them for the diamond, Whiteflash told me i only have $5,524.61 for upgrade available. As long as I never upgrade, I don't lose per se. But, if I upgrade, the minute I upgrade I lose the value of the diamond they took possession of, right off the bat along with the old setting which was used as payment to them. Like I have said, I have strong reason to believe they haven't taken a loss at all on the diamond. In fact, if I upgrade as per how things are currently, i will be compensating Whiteflash a second time for the diamond I gave them as payment, up to the $7,364.66 dollar amount. When I asked Whiteflash what amount they would buy their own diamond back at, they told me they would go off the $5,524.61 and they told me I would lose even more. So they are aware what's happening here. I am the one losing, not Whiteflash They told me they considered the BG diamond they were compensated with as a one-time discount that disappears the minute I upgrade.

Who's double-dipping?
 

pyramid

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They did a part exchange but the upgrade policy is only for money payment.
 

PepperT

Rough_Rock
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Let me rephrase/correct my last statement.

Who will be double-dipping IF I upgrade?
 

PepperT

Rough_Rock
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So as Pyramid srates,

They did a part exchange but the upgrade policy is only for money payment.


Will you please show me where that is stated on their website?
 

PepperT

Rough_Rock
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One more question pyramid in regards to your statement

They did a part exchange but the upgrade policy is only for money payment.

If I buy an ACA for say $10,000 cash, then I upgrade to another ACA for $10,001 and send the $10,000 diamond back to Whiteflash and pay $1 to Whiteflash for that upgrade, if I then do another upgrade for a $10,002 diamond, do I then only get one dollar credit for the previous diamond, since monetarily that's what Whiteflash received in hard cash from that transaction and just pay another $10,001?
 

kb1gra

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Pyramid|1445740451|3941814 said:
They did a part exchange but the upgrade policy is only for money payment.

According to who?

"The purchase of any Whiteflash in-house certified diamond automatically qualifies you for our 100% Lifetime Trade Up Guarantee."

There is no indication whatsoever that HOW you pay for that diamond impacts the trade up. Nor should it matter. If you're willing to accept 48000 chocolate chip cookies in exchange for a diamond, then you sold me a diamond worth $x and I gave you $x worth of chocolate chip cookies, because that's an in-kind deal.

The policy does say "All discounts applied to the original order will be taken off the trade-in credit for the diamond." However I fail to see how the purchase of a customer stone (that you can then resell) could ever possibly be construed as a "discount." I SOLD YOU an item for CASH VALUE that is not a "discount" you received an item of that value from me as payment. In fact, a condition of the deal as stated on their website is that the payment MUST be applied towards a whiteflash stone worth at least 50% more than the value they offered you.

There is no indication whatsoever that anything is different with trading up an outside stone beyond the value they're willing to give and that there's no promise they'll buy the stone. The policy clearly reads as TRADING UP AN OUTSIDE DIAMOND and there is no mention of ANY kind that this kind of trade up is somehow different than trading up a whiteflash stone and instead constitutes some sort of "discount" off a purchase - because no customer would ever accept that deal, if that's indeed what it is.

I'm sorry you're going through this, PepperT, and I'm also really sorry that people can't see the forest for the trees. This is deceptive and there is no really defensible way to consider that the value of a customer's stone traded towards one of yours is somehow a "discount" and that your keeping the stone is totally immaterial to any subsequent deal.
 

thecat

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Pyramid|1445740451|3941814 said:
They did a part exchange but the upgrade policy is only for money payment.

The traded in diamond is $ too. It's only not cash in the sense that she didn't see a separate cheque issued for the traded in stone.

OP, I think most won't have thought to ask about how a trade in of non WF diamond will affect future trade up amount. Thank you for sharing so that future customers know what to ask. I hope you get a satisfactory resolution to your situation soon.
 

pyramid

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The part someone mentioned earlier which is in their FAQ section on the site, the question where it asks about upgrading your own diamond it says it will not be part of their 100℅ upgrade guarantee.

Re kb1gra's last post this is not an 'in-house' diamond so doesn't qualify for lifetime upgrade.


http://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/whiteflash-policies/lifetime-upgrade.htm
See part about virtual selection and other diamonds don't count.

See at the foot 'policies subject to change'.

This is how they make their money, their business and their rules.

http://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/whiteflash-policies/trade-up-program-for-customer-diamonds-1459.htm
 

WillyDiamond

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I find it interesting that WF has not weighed in on this.
 

kb1gra

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Pyramid|1445769898|3941872 said:
The part someone mentioned earlier which is in their FAQ section on the site, the question where it asks about upgrading your own diamond it says it will not be part of their 100℅ upgrade guarantee.

Re kb1gra's last post this is not an 'in-house' diamond so doesn't qualify for lifetime upgrade.


http://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/whiteflash-policies/lifetime-upgrade.htm
See part about virtual selection and other diamonds don't count.

See at the foot 'policies subject to change'.

This is how they make their money, their business and their rules.

http://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/whiteflash-policies/trade-up-program-for-customer-diamonds-1459.htm

There are apparent reading comprehension issues here.

The "not a lifetime trade up guarantee" part for outside stones means that they do not guarantee they will buy your stone.

If you purchase an ACA, no matter what you traded for it, that would fall under "ANY in house diamond purchase" and should be eligible for lifetime upgrade- you purchased an in house diamond. In fact, the policy everyone is quoting specifically says that you MUST purchase an in house diamond with the credit from an outside stone. I am really not seeing how this is hard to understand.

People who say otherwise are, frankly, making things up that aren't there.

Policies are subject to change, but it is 100% standard that whatever policy applied to you when you made your purchase is the one that matters. If a lifetime upgrade was promised on her purchase, then it doesn't matter if the next day they decide not to offer one - it was part of HER purchase.

I feel really sorry for the OP and for the people who can't seem to read, or accept well-reasoned explanations as to why what they are saying in defense of this vendor is not making any sense.

As I still haven't seen whiteflash's response - I'm not going to pass judgement yet. But it is not looking good.
 

pyramid

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No I do not believe it says that, I read that the diamond she traded in does not meet standards and rules to be an In-house diamond however she did buy part of an In-house diamond which meets their lifetime trade up in the guarantee. I can see you have reader incomprehension myself although I would not be so rude as to say it first.
 

pyramid

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The bit of the diamond which was bought with money from an out-house diamond doesn't count because their guarantee says 'Any In-house diamond' and NOT "Any diamond".

I see the Not a lifetime guarantee to mean more than they may not buy the stone it is also saying it is not Lifetime if you go this route to trade up as buying other stones are NOT a part of this guarantee we have provided a link to (the underlined link).
 

PepperT

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Pryarmid, The diamond I bought from Whiteflash is one of their in-house diamonds. I have an invoice from Whiteflash stating that the diamond and setting I bought from them have been paid in full.

The issue is this: I haven't lost anything yet. However, the minute I upgrade, a diamond I paid over $7,300 for in compensation to Whiteflash for, now drops in value to %5,524.61. When this drop takes place in upgrade value, Whiteflash still has the Brian Gavin diamond and the old setting. They still have all the compensation they received up front. I, on the other hand, DO NOT have the value I paid for. i will lose over $1,800 in upgrade as things stand at this moment. I think if you were in this predicament, you would have a much better understanding, especially, when essentially, the diamond you bought has now been devalued by them. I have a feeling, you wouldn't be pleased either. I don't know who would.
 

pyramid

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The diamond you bought is an In-house diamond but the payment is excluded because part of it was from an Out-house diamond. That seems to me what Whiteflash are enforcing. So your diamond is part of the trade-up guarantee only for the money placed after the purchase and after they let you use the old diamond as part payment. We can argue the point all we want but only you and Whiteflash can go further with it if it is worth the cost to you to prove you are right.

As usual Kenny was wise to say it is all in good writing. We are reading it differently. However as Kenny said you can pick holes in anything.

I wonder if this policy has changed as Mara from years ago traded in her own diamond and upgraded many times with Whiteflash but that was I believe when it was under Brian Gavin's management. She never wrote about losing her deposit after she used it a second or third or fourth time.
 

pyramid

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I am not in America but I don't see an Upgrade as a right. The way I see it they did you a favour taking the diamond as selling your own diamond msay have got you only 30%. I would have done the Brian Gavin buy back as it is a good percentage which is probably the same as Whiteflash are giving when they take the percentage off an Upgrade.

They gave you 100% or so or more than Brian Gavin or you would not have given it to them instead of Brian. Why go with Whiteflash was it available stock as Brian Gavin's stones are just as well cut, I would have gone with him. I have a WF diamond but see them and Crafted by Infinity as equal. Wonder if they give upgrade money over and over again on a customer's old stone.

The upgrade is on the new money you have spent with them not on money spent with another competitor it is a customer bonus to their customers. They are doing people a favour taking in their old stone so you don't have to pay for consignment.

Even their own diamonds they only buy back at 70,% so why would they give you 100% more than once when someone who bought say a $30000 diamond from them and returned it within their stipulated year policy only got back 70%. It is a business not a charity.
 

Rhea

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I'd be upset too. It is as though your original diamond has been thrown away and the money lost. You used your original diamond to pay for the new diamond. It was a payment through exchange and should count for something if WF is willing to let you upgrade your current diamond. Was your other option to accept the cash for your diamond? Surely if the transaction had been done that way, giving you cash and then you giving it back to pay for your current diamond no one would expect or think this lost was okay like is currently being argued.
 

pyramid

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I think the diamond business is getting tougher with the fall in prices, less interest in diamonds and would not be surprised if upgrade policies become a thing of the past. Never see this advertised over in the UK or in shops.
 

Rhea

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Pyramid|1445779635|3941906 said:
Even their own diamonds they only buy back at 70,% so why would they give you 100% more than once when someone who bought say a $30000 diamond from them and returned it within their stipulated year policy only got back 70%. It is a business not a charity.

In my view, that's fine, if it's their policy to do upgrades, buy backs, whatever, at 70%, that's fine, but it needs to be 70% of the price that was paid, no matter how it was paid. If it's 70% of the diamond only, not setting, fine. They are a business, need to make money, we all understand that. Her first diamond was used as currency so should count. It's like the first diamond has just fallen off a cliff.
 

pyramid

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Would not be offered cash by Whiteflash they would not have to provide this as was not bought originally from them, they offer 70% back on their own diamonds if within 1 year only. It was a deal on an Upgrade which most people only do once and really most people don't do at all if it comes to that. Upgrades are an incentive to get you to come back and buy more which they are doing with the money you invested in them ONLY.
 

Rhea

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Pyramid|1445780964|3941912 said:
Would not be offered cash by Whiteflash they would not have to provide this as was not bought originally from them, they offer 70% back on their own diamonds if within 1 year only. It was a deal on an Upgrade which most people only do once and really most people don't do at all if it comes to that. Upgrades are an incentive to get you to come back and buy more which they are doing with the money you invested in them ONLY.

Right, which she's trying to do, spend more money with WF. Or did I misread? And I thought WF offered a 100% for upgrades of ACA. http://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/whiteflash-policies/lifetime-upgrade.htm

I was just using your example of what I'd except to get 70% of in the situation you posed, not confirming or agreeing that the OP was trying to sell the diamond back.
 

pyramid

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Their 70% is for buying a qualifying ACA, diamond after 1 year only and not for upgrade as in selling a diamond to buy a car. Upgrade is for new money e.g. income from cash, bank spent . Unless Whiteflash say otherwise this is what they mean. She has been told it three times already by THEIR staff, and told by them it is their policy whether we like it or not.

I was just saying if they give someone only 70% to buy back their diamond, why would they give someone trading up an old diamond 100% more than once in the initial purchase?; which is not allowed in their upgrade policy but future Money spent on the qualifying new diamond bought is. But ONLY FUTURE MONEY as in the old days would have been cash only probably. In that case then the person selling back a one year ACA to go and buy from someone else would expect 100% too which would be the same as a return but it cannot be as that must be within 30 days.

Have you asked if it is within 30 days if you can return the diamond then get your old one back. I would think only Brian Gavin who you bought from would give you full trade-up rights under his terms.
 

pyramid

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Rhea|1445781322|3941913 said:
Pyramid|1445780964|3941912 said:
Would not be offered cash by Whiteflash they would not have to provide this as was not bought originally from them, they offer 70% back on their own diamonds if within 1 year only. It was a deal on an Upgrade which most people only do once and really most people don't do at all if it comes to that. Upgrades are an incentive to get you to come back and buy more which they are doing with the money you invested in them ONLY.

Right, which she's trying to do, spend more money with WF. Or did I misread? And I thought WF offered a 100% for upgrades of ACA. http://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/whiteflash-policies/lifetime-upgrade.htm

I was just using your example of what I'd except to get 70% of in the situation you posed, not confirming or agreeing that the OP was trying to sell the diamond back.


They offer 100% for ACA bought from them which they are doing 100% of the new money she spent with them but not of the discount they gave her for an old diamond purchased in a one off agreement.

I am giving up, this is up to Whiteflash in more ways than one!
 
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