Women who have unrealistic expectations

[telephone89]

I do have to say, I have seen a few posters in some wedding forums/advice columns where the women want a certain ering and the man doesn't want to spend over x amount even though he has just spent many times over that money on his hobbies because diamonds are useless and xboxes/4runners/cars have function. So I think sometimes we don't see the other side of the equation. If a guy comes on and says, my gf wants a 2 carat ring but my budget is 7k, maybe she didn't get 2 carats from nowhere. Maybe that's what he could afford, if he spent the same on the e ring as on his new fishing equipment and he just doesn't see the point.

Obviously, this is not true in most of the cases of budget mismatch we see, but I think we forget that this is the other side. I know I have friend who had this problem, on a much smaller scale.

No one should be spending someone else's money. Whether they can (in an outsiders eyes) afford it or not. I don't think someone would appreciate their partner telling them they shouldn't spend THEIR money on bags or shoes because they have no point.

Once finances are combined, I think it's a slightly different story. But as bf and gf, separate entities, a gf does not have the right to spend her bfs money.

 

[Laila619]

I do have to say, I have seen a few posters in some wedding forums/advice columns where the women want a certain ering and the man doesn't want to spend over x amount even though he has just spent many times over that money on his hobbies because diamonds are useless and xboxes/4runners/cars have function. So I think sometimes we don't see the other side of the equation. If a guy comes on and says, my gf wants a 2 carat ring but my budget is 7k, maybe she didn't get 2 carats from nowhere. Maybe that's what he could afford, if he spent the same on the e ring as on his new fishing equipment and he just doesn't see the point.

Obviously, this is not true in most of the cases of budget mismatch we see, but I think we forget that this is the other side. I know I have friend who had this problem, on a much smaller scale.

No one should be spending someone else's money. Whether they can (in an outsiders eyes) afford it or not. I don't think someone would appreciate their partner telling them they shouldn't spend THEIR money on bags or shoes because they have no point.

Once finances are combined, I think it's a slightly different story. But as bf and gf, separate entities, a gf does not have the right to spend her bfs money.

I agree.

And I don't think it bodes well for the marriage when the lady is seemingly more focused on a ring/dollar amount than the fact that the guy she loves most in the world just asked her to commit for a lifetime.

Don't get me wrong, we all want a ring we like. But that doesn't necessarily = huge and expensive.

 

[msop04]

I do have to say, I have seen a few posters in some wedding forums/advice columns where the women want a certain ering and the man doesn't want to spend over x amount even though he has just spent many times over that money on his hobbies because diamonds are useless and xboxes/4runners/cars have function. So I think sometimes we don't see the other side of the equation. If a guy comes on and says, my gf wants a 2 carat ring but my budget is 7k, maybe she didn't get 2 carats from nowhere. Maybe that's what he could afford, if he spent the same on the e ring as on his new fishing equipment and he just doesn't see the point.

Obviously, this is not true in most of the cases of budget mismatch we see, but I think we forget that this is the other side. I know I have friend who had this problem, on a much smaller scale.

I agree with this idea...

Some guys spends TONS of money on what is important to them. Be it guns, Xboxes, tickets to college/pro football game (this could be THOUSANDS every season, depending on your favorite team), boats, elaborate trips, etc... I can see where a woman might be a little ticked if a guy cheaped out on her ring then turned around and bought a $35K+ fishing boat. Now, I'm not saying that a woman should expect a $35K ring by any means, but you see where I'm going with this, I hope. A guy shouldn't disregard how important a ring may be to his intended just because it's not important to him.

I also agree on splitting the cost, or some form of compromise. After all, the cost of a man's wedding band is pale in comparison to the cost of an engagement ring.

 

[Haven]

I think the problem in the situations you describe, NatyLad, is poor communication and lack of knowledge. I would bet many of the women who "demand" a particular size stone or type of ring have no idea how much such a thing will cost, and couple that with a man's reluctance to share his budget with his beloved--boom, frustration abounds.

I also see a lot of young women wearing HUGE simulants, and I think this adds to the general illusion that very large diamonds are something that a typical, middle class, young person can afford. I work with a younger population, 18 to 25, and many of the young women I see have very beautiful rings that sure look like enormous diamonds at first glance.

If a man truly feels like his beloved is bullying him into buying more ring than he can afford, then he needs to communicate with her. I don't really feel bad for someone who will bend to another's will like that. It's a choice.

 

[Niel]

I would also think that women don't understand how a ring got to its owner.

For example. I'll use MSOPS ring as an example as that's all over social media.

They see that and say "this is my dream ring, she got her dream ring I want mine". However, they don't see msop compromising on the metal she would have really wanted, the color or size of stone, or cut. (This is your old ring dear, which you know I love)

So what I'm saying is, I don't think they realize most everyone compromises. The finished rings you see may not have even been exactly what the owner wanted. Or, the owner is well established in her relationship and saved up for what she wanted


I don't know, I think Pinterest shows women rings and people don't know anything. You see rings saying " one ct asscher " when really it's a 9ct.

Or some some ring on a size 4 and think "that's the look I need"

They don't look at any stores to see how much things are, or options for compromising. They surround themselves with only images of rings they want and assume real love means he buys it for you. Period.

My other gripe about Pinterest is no one tries anything on! I want a rose gold oval because Blake lively. Have you TRIED an oval on in the size you can afford? Does rose gold look good on your skin?!

 

[msop04]

I would also think that women don't understand how a ring got to its owner.

For example. I'll use MSOPS ring as an example as that's all over social media.

They see that and say "this is my dream ring, she got her dream ring I want mine". However, they don't see msop compromising on the metal she would have really wanted, the color or size of stone, or cut. (This is your old ring dear, which you know I love)

So what I'm saying is, I don't think they realize most everyone compromises. The finished rings you see may not have even been exactly what the owner wanted. Or, the owner is well established in her relationship and saved up for what she wanted


I don't know, I think Pinterest shows women rings and people don't know anything. You see rings saying " one ct asscher " when really it's a 9ct.

Or some some ring on a size 4 and think "that's the look I need"

They don't look at any stores to see how much things are, or options for compromising. They surround themselves with only images of rings they want and assume real love means he buys it for you. Period.

Yes! This exactly!! For me, this is soooo true -- I compromised in several areas (color, cut, gold vs. plat) to be able to get it the look I wanted. So, absolutely, Niel! People don't know those things and just think that they can/should have what they "think" it is they're seeing.

Also, they don't know how many upgrades the person may have had to go through before finally getting that particular ring. It could also have been a big anni upgrade or the like.

 

[madelise]

Social media takes a huge part too. People w/ giant rings will post pics whereas people with smaller won't. Then people start thinking all rings are big.

 

[msop04]

Social media takes a huge part too. People w/ giant rings will post pics whereas people with smaller won't. Then people start thinking all rings are big.

Yes, and when the media "reports" on the new bling, they are WAAAAAY off... Like one movie star/model/whatever had a GINORMOUS asscher and it was reported as being 3 carats -- COME. ON. That thing was AT LEAST 7+ carats! I wish I could remember who it was...

 

[msop04]

...I'm thinking it was Ciara's ring from Russell Wilson?? It was reported as an asscher, but I couldn't get any good pics of it.

 

[Dancing Fire]

My wife is cheap I didn't get a ring from her...

 

[VRBeauty]

I think Gypsy's observation about communications hits the nail on the head - men need to be able to communicate if the ring that's described to them or shown as a dream ring is beyond the budget. And then, let the communication (and often, compromise) begin! Most marriages are going to entail lots of difficult financial decisions. Hopefully they'll be joint decisions. The ring is as good a place as any to begin. And if it turns out that the expectations are non-negotiable, and/or the parties have very different thinking about budget priorities? I guess it's better to figure that out before the wedding planning starts in earnest!

And by the way, while there are some PS newbies who agonize over meeting every little aspect of their girlfriend's checklist, there are just as many who come in with an inspiration picture but end up getting a ring with a smaller center stone and simpler setting that reflects elements of the inspiration ring... and sometimes they even come back and tell us how much their fiancee loves the ring. And in some cases they are responding to family and cultural preferences rather than their girlfriend's expectations. I'm just saying that I don't think the problem is all that widespread.

 

[VRBeauty]

My wife is cheap I didn't get a ring from her...

Says the man with the custom-cut 2.3 carat Octavia. Methinks there was a crocodile involved in the making of those tears!

 

[Dancing Fire]

My wife is cheap I didn't get a ring from her...

Says the man with the custom-cut 2.3 carat Octavia. Methinks there was a crocodile involved in the making of those tears!

I didn't tell her until 3 weeks after I have ordered the Octavia with my $$$...

 

[pearaffair]

...I'm thinking it was Ciara's ring from Russell Wilson?? It was reported as an asscher, but I couldn't get any good pics of it.

What to post a picture of your ring so I can dream about it, too?

 

[msop04]

...I'm thinking it was Ciara's ring from Russell Wilson?? It was reported as an asscher, but I couldn't get any good pics of it.

What to post a picture of your ring so I can dream about it, too?

 

[AdaBeta27]

When I was in my early 20s I had a friend who only wanted to date a doctor or a lawyer, and said she would only get engaged to someone who proposed with a 3+ carat diamond. She was a classic gold digger. Fast forward 20 years, all of the gals in that particular group are married with kids in their teens, and that girl is 42, overweight and alone......

Well, as a woman who is divorced, overweight, no kids, lives alone, I can honestly say that: I look around me, and I see *no* married woman whose life I envy or would want. *Not one.* I never wanted children because I never wanted to take on the health risks and exhaustion of pregnancy, nor do the day to day drudgework of raising children. None of that ever looked the least bit attractive to me. I like working outside the home and I like to enjoy life when I get home. A second shift of family chores would have only been annoying, humiliating, insulting, and exhausting. I liked being married , for a while, but lost interest in the husband when the it became clear that he'd never grow up and be productive. I get sick and tired of people treating me like a loser because I opted out of the breeding program and being some family's fool and slop-cleaner. Some of us single women look at middle-aged wives and mommies and think " No way in Hades would I want that life!" My aunt and uncle who adored each other and remained childfree and had no money problems were afaik, the only married couple I envied or wanted to emulate. I just want to work and have fun. And intellectual stimulation. I think there are a lot of people who don't understand that drive, because they lack intellectual curiosity.

 

[msop04]

When I was in my early 20s I had a friend who only wanted to date a doctor or a lawyer, and said she would only get engaged to someone who proposed with a 3+ carat diamond. She was a classic gold digger. Fast forward 20 years, all of the gals in that particular group are married with kids in their teens, and that girl is 42, overweight and alone......

Well, as a woman who is divorced, overweight, no kids, lives alone, I can honestly say that: I look around me, and I see *no* married woman whose life I envy or would want. *Not one.* I never wanted children because I never wanted to take on the health risks and exhaustion of pregnancy, nor do the day to day drudgework of raising children. None of that ever looked the least bit attractive to me. I like working outside the home and I like to enjoy life when I get home. A second shift of family chores would have only been annoying, humiliating, insulting, and exhausting. I liked being married , for a while, but lost interest in the husband when the it became clear that he'd never grow up and be productive. I get sick and tired of people treating me like a loser because I opted out of the breeding program and being some family's fool and slop-cleaner. Some of us single women look at middle-aged wives and mommies and think " No way in Hades would I want that life!" My aunt and uncle who adored each other and remained childfree and had no money problems were afaik, the only married couple I envied or wanted to emulate. I just want to work and have fun. And intellectual stimulation. I think there are a lot of people who don't understand that drive, because they lack intellectual curiosity.

Different strokes, ya know? ...but, honestly, you're tone in this post sounds rather bitter. I doubt that the lack of understanding stems from no intellectual curiosity though. Maybe for some, sure, but everyone has the right to choose what lifestyle they'd like for the most part, and to label the choice of motherhood as being the "family's fool" or "slop-cleaner" is insulting, to say the least... and may lack intellectual curiosity on YOUR PART as well. It certainly lacks an open mind. [emoji17]

It's perfectly fine to be single, work, and have fun... just please don't insult or make assumptions about those who chose a slightly different path -- which is the same thing you are asking of others for your choices. [emoji848]

FWIW, I am a medical professional and work (a lot) -- so I wouldn't claim to lack intellectual curiosity. I have tons of fun! I'm also a wife and new mom... for me, those things are only part of my "work" that brings much joy. Both are very fun and fulfilling in my life.

Like I said, different strokes... [emoji56]

 

[telephone89]

I also think that *the item that shall not be named (simulants)* have had an interesting play on expectations recently. Previously, you'd be able to tell that someone was sporting a 3ct CZ no problem. They are much more similar looking now, and SO much more affordable than diamonds. I wonder if when women are 'shopping' on pinterest they are seeing a sim and like how it looks (ie large ct on small finger, think its a diamond). Plus her neighbor, best friends cousin and ex bfs new FI have a 2ct, so why shouldn't she? I know of (like saw the receipts) at least 2 people that have sims that try to pass them off as diamonds. It isn't my place to tell them not to, but again, playing into the whole 'looking like we have money' or trying to emulate celebs thing.

 

[msop04]

Different strokes, ya know? ...but, honestly, you're tone in this post sounds rather bitter... [emoji56]

Just noticed a spelling error, which I hate! YOUR, not you're. Too late to edit, but... Ugh! [emoji15][emoji16][emoji56]

 

[kenny]

My wife is cheap I didn't get a ring from her...

Yeah!

Nobody's ever given ME a diamond.

 

[Laila619]

I also think that *the item that shall not be named (simulants)* have had an interesting play on expectations recently. Previously, you'd be able to tell that someone was sporting a 3ct CZ no problem. They are much more similar looking now, and SO much more affordable than diamonds. I wonder if when women are 'shopping' on pinterest they are seeing a sim and like how it looks (ie large ct on small finger, think its a diamond). Plus her neighbor, best friends cousin and ex bfs new FI have a 2ct, so why shouldn't she? I know of (like saw the receipts) at least 2 people that have sims that try to pass them off as diamonds. It isn't my place to tell them not to, but again, playing into the whole 'looking like we have money' or trying to emulate celebs thing.

I never understand this "looking like we have money" thing though. There are people who rock plain simple gold bands and they have tons of money. On the other hand, someone can be wearing a 2 carat diamond that they are still making credit card payments on, and they don't have a pot to piss in, so to speak.

 

[telephone89]

I also think that *the item that shall not be named (simulants)* have had an interesting play on expectations recently. Previously, you'd be able to tell that someone was sporting a 3ct CZ no problem. They are much more similar looking now, and SO much more affordable than diamonds. I wonder if when women are 'shopping' on pinterest they are seeing a sim and like how it looks (ie large ct on small finger, think its a diamond). Plus her neighbor, best friends cousin and ex bfs new FI have a 2ct, so why shouldn't she? I know of (like saw the receipts) at least 2 people that have sims that try to pass them off as diamonds. It isn't my place to tell them not to, but again, playing into the whole 'looking like we have money' or trying to emulate celebs thing.

I never understand this "looking like we have money" thing though. There are people who rock plain simple gold bands and they have tons of money. On the other hand, someone can be wearing a 2 carat diamond that they are still making credit card payments on, and they don't have a pot to piss in, so to speak.

Or people who drive BMWs and can barely pay rent, so they end up eating ramen? Haha I've known those types. I don't understand it either.

 

[Laila619]

I also think that *the item that shall not be named (simulants)* have had an interesting play on expectations recently. Previously, you'd be able to tell that someone was sporting a 3ct CZ no problem. They are much more similar looking now, and SO much more affordable than diamonds. I wonder if when women are 'shopping' on pinterest they are seeing a sim and like how it looks (ie large ct on small finger, think its a diamond). Plus her neighbor, best friends cousin and ex bfs new FI have a 2ct, so why shouldn't she? I know of (like saw the receipts) at least 2 people that have sims that try to pass them off as diamonds. It isn't my place to tell them not to, but again, playing into the whole 'looking like we have money' or trying to emulate celebs thing.

I never understand this "looking like we have money" thing though. There are people who rock plain simple gold bands and they have tons of money. On the other hand, someone can be wearing a 2 carat diamond that they are still making credit card payments on, and they don't have a pot to piss in, so to speak.

Or people who drive BMWs and can barely pay rent, so they end up eating ramen? Haha I've known those types. I don't understand it either.

Yeah, exactly!

With so many good fakes nowadays, I no longer assume that someone who is wearing a big stone on their finger is wealthy.

 

[rainydaze]

When I was in my early 20s I had a friend who only wanted to date a doctor or a lawyer, and said she would only get engaged to someone who proposed with a 3+ carat diamond. She was a classic gold digger. Fast forward 20 years, all of the gals in that particular group are married with kids in their teens, and that girl is 42, overweight and alone......

Well, as a woman who is divorced, overweight, no kids, lives alone, I can honestly say that: I look around me, and I see *no* married woman whose life I envy or would want. *Not one.* I never wanted children because I never wanted to take on the health risks and exhaustion of pregnancy, nor do the day to day drudgework of raising children. None of that ever looked the least bit attractive to me. I like working outside the home and I like to enjoy life when I get home. A second shift of family chores would have only been annoying, humiliating, insulting, and exhausting. I liked being married , for a while, but lost interest in the husband when the it became clear that he'd never grow up and be productive. I get sick and tired of people treating me like a loser because I opted out of the breeding program and being some family's fool and slop-cleaner. Some of us single women look at middle-aged wives and mommies and think " No way in Hades would I want that life!" My aunt and uncle who adored each other and remained childfree and had no money problems were afaik, the only married couple I envied or wanted to emulate. I just want to work and have fun. And intellectual stimulation. I think there are a lot of people who don't understand that drive, because they lack intellectual curiosity.

This is as offensive, or worse, than the post that spawned it. Your opinion, and the way you have expressed it, of women who have chosen marriage and kids is as derogatory, ignorant, and condescending as the opinions you perceive others have for your choice not to be married and have children.

It's a shame you are not surrounded by more people who respect and understand your choices. It's also a shame that you have decided that if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

 

[Laila619]

When I was in my early 20s I had a friend who only wanted to date a doctor or a lawyer, and said she would only get engaged to someone who proposed with a 3+ carat diamond. She was a classic gold digger. Fast forward 20 years, all of the gals in that particular group are married with kids in their teens, and that girl is 42, overweight and alone......

Well, as a woman who is divorced, overweight, no kids, lives alone, I can honestly say that: I look around me, and I see *no* married woman whose life I envy or would want. *Not one.* I never wanted children because I never wanted to take on the health risks and exhaustion of pregnancy, nor do the day to day drudgework of raising children. None of that ever looked the least bit attractive to me. I like working outside the home and I like to enjoy life when I get home. A second shift of family chores would have only been annoying, humiliating, insulting, and exhausting. I liked being married , for a while, but lost interest in the husband when the it became clear that he'd never grow up and be productive. I get sick and tired of people treating me like a loser because I opted out of the breeding program and being some family's fool and slop-cleaner. Some of us single women look at middle-aged wives and mommies and think " No way in Hades would I want that life!" My aunt and uncle who adored each other and remained childfree and had no money problems were afaik, the only married couple I envied or wanted to emulate. I just want to work and have fun. And intellectual stimulation. I think there are a lot of people who don't understand that drive, because they lack intellectual curiosity.

Well, I have four kiddos and I am definitely not the fool and slop cleaner. I leave that to my hubs.

 

[Niel]

When I was in my early 20s I had a friend who only wanted to date a doctor or a lawyer, and said she would only get engaged to someone who proposed with a 3+ carat diamond. She was a classic gold digger. Fast forward 20 years, all of the gals in that particular group are married with kids in their teens, and that girl is 42, overweight and alone......

Well, as a woman who is divorced, overweight, no kids, lives alone, I can honestly say that: I look around me, and I see *no* married woman whose life I envy or would want. *Not one.* I never wanted children because I never wanted to take on the health risks and exhaustion of pregnancy, nor do the day to day drudgework of raising children. None of that ever looked the least bit attractive to me. I like working outside the home and I like to enjoy life when I get home. A second shift of family chores would have only been annoying, humiliating, insulting, and exhausting. I liked being married , for a while, but lost interest in the husband when the it became clear that he'd never grow up and be productive. I get sick and tired of people treating me like a loser because I opted out of the breeding program and being some family's fool and slop-cleaner. Some of us single women look at middle-aged wives and mommies and think " No way in Hades would I want that life!" My aunt and uncle who adored each other and remained childfree and had no money problems were afaik, the only married couple I envied or wanted to emulate. I just want to work and have fun. And intellectual stimulation. I think there are a lot of people who don't understand that drive, because they lack intellectual curiosity.

This is as offensive, or worse, than the post that spawned it. Your opinion, and the way you have expressed it, of women who have chosen marriage and kids is as derogatory, ignorant, and condescending as the opinions you perceive others have for your choice not to be married and have children.

It's a shame you are not surrounded by more people who respect and understand your choices. It's also a shame that you have decided that if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Very true. Well said.

But if attacking and belittling mothers makes you feel better about those who don't understand your choice. You do you. But your lack of understanding of mothers far exactly the same thing.

 

[Polished]

When I was in my early 20s I had a friend who only wanted to date a doctor or a lawyer, and said she would only get engaged to someone who proposed with a 3+ carat diamond. She was a classic gold digger. Fast forward 20 years, all of the gals in that particular group are married with kids in their teens, and that girl is 42, overweight and alone......

Well, as a woman who is divorced, overweight, no kids, lives alone, I can honestly say that: I look around me, and I see *no* married woman whose life I envy or would want. *Not one.* I never wanted children because I never wanted to take on the health risks and exhaustion of pregnancy, nor do the day to day drudgework of raising children. None of that ever looked the least bit attractive to me. I like working outside the home and I like to enjoy life when I get home. A second shift of family chores would have only been annoying, humiliating, insulting, and exhausting. I liked being married , for a while, but lost interest in the husband when the it became clear that he'd never grow up and be productive. I get sick and tired of people treating me like a loser because I opted out of the breeding program and being some family's fool and slop-cleaner. Some of us single women look at middle-aged wives and mommies and think " No way in Hades would I want that life!" My aunt and uncle who adored each other and remained childfree and had no money problems were afaik, the only married couple I envied or wanted to emulate. I just want to work and have fun. And intellectual stimulation. I think there are a lot of people who don't understand that drive, because they lack intellectual curiosity.

I'm hard-pressed understanding how someone could enjoy the single life holding such an attitude. I have a friend who divorced and chose never to have children. She loves and takes an interest in our children and we love hearing the escapades of her adventurous single life. Likewise our children have an Aunt who is married but they chose not to have children together. She enjoys the sense of having a larger family that her nephews and neices provide for her. She never would have been suited to having children, preferring dogs and dog shows. There's nothing devisive there, rather life is enriched by the differing choices people make in this regard.

 

[jaysonsmom]

Gosh, I should have checked back, explained myself and help smooth some ruffled feathers.

When I said my "friend" is now 42, overweight, single....I did not mean being overweight as a failure. I should have explained that even in her 20's her young tight body was the only thing going for her as far as I was concerned. She was a friend by association, someone that I met as a part of a group of friends I hung out with. Guys that were initially interested to her banging hot bod, quickly distanced themselves once they found out how superficial and materialistic she was. Even to this day, she would ask to be set up with guys above a certain income level. Well, most guys at her approved income level are what we would call sugar daddies, and she no longer meets their "unrealistic expectations" of being a young hot thing!

 

[missy]

Yanno there are unrealistic expectations from both genders and I am sure from the transgendered community as well. Unrealistic expectations have no boundaries LOL.

For example, my dh and I have a few very good single male friends who will only date the most beautiful women. Now these men are not what I would consider model handsome yet they think they should only date the most gorgeous women as no one else will do. Otherwise these men are smart and professional (all doctors and lawyers) and yes these men have a lot to offer. But their expectations perhaps a bit less than realistic. Do they get to date these amazingly beautiful women? Sometimes but more often than not women that are more equal to them are the ones who are attracted to them. And all of these men are still single though they are upwards of 50. So I come to the conclusion that perhaps they have unrealistic expectations. Really any gender can and does have those unrealistic expectations.

 

[Laila619]

Yanno there are unrealistic expectations from both genders and I am sure from the transgendered community as well. Unrealistic expectations have no boundaries LOL.

For example, my dh and I have a few very good single male friends who will only date the most beautiful women. Now these men are not what I would consider model handsome yet they think they should only date the most gorgeous women as no one else will do. Otherwise these men are smart and professional (all doctors and lawyers) and yes these men have a lot to offer. But their expectations perhaps a bit less than realistic. Do they get to date these amazingly beautiful women? Sometimes but more often than not women that are more equal to them are the ones who are attracted to them. And all of these men are still single though they are upwards of 50. So I come to the conclusion that perhaps they have unrealistic expectations. Really any gender can and does have those unrealistic expectations.

I'm sure they go for women 10-15 years younger than they are, too, right? I know the type well. When men have big wallets, their appearance isn't as important to a lot of women, lol.