Anna0499
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Thanks for the suggestion ksinger.
Sorry for the threadjack...back to Obama
will Obama be a good President?
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Sorry for the threadjack...back to Obama
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Anna0499
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Whose definition is this? I get what you''re saying, but neither McCain nor Obama has ever been elected President, so I doubt it''s the "same thing over and over again." If the Dems could have produced a viable candidate in 2004 I doubt the American people would''ve re-elected Bush, but that is neither here or nor there at this point in time. Some people call "doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result" persistence and perseverance.
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Some people call "doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result" persistence and perseverance.
I think you and GWB share that same view.
A simple story. In college one of my first papers I turned in was a hand written paper. I didn''t notice maybe didn''t remember the instruction that papers needed to be type written. So, that paper was not read and automatically given a failing grade. I could have done a GWB and railed that I have always turned in hand written papers and that was sufficient in the past and so it should be accepted now, that it doesn''t matter it is the teacher''s job to grade it and simply keep turning in hand written papers, hoping that the teacher would give up or be afraid I would report the teacher or whatever. What did I do? I learned how to use a computer and print out my papers from then on.
Not learning from mistakes, or making them over and over again in my opinion is not character building but a sign of a lack of learning or caring or possibly even willful misconduct. It is not a character I wish the next Leader of the Free World to have. In my own conduct I am more pragmatic than ideologically motivated maybe that''s why I feel less tolerance for politicians who feel they can mold the world (and other people) to their ideology rather than be adaptive and learn from mistakes and make the best decisions they can based on changing information and circumstances.
Sorry if this is too harsh.
I think you and GWB share that same view.
A simple story. In college one of my first papers I turned in was a hand written paper. I didn''t notice maybe didn''t remember the instruction that papers needed to be type written. So, that paper was not read and automatically given a failing grade. I could have done a GWB and railed that I have always turned in hand written papers and that was sufficient in the past and so it should be accepted now, that it doesn''t matter it is the teacher''s job to grade it and simply keep turning in hand written papers, hoping that the teacher would give up or be afraid I would report the teacher or whatever. What did I do? I learned how to use a computer and print out my papers from then on.
Not learning from mistakes, or making them over and over again in my opinion is not character building but a sign of a lack of learning or caring or possibly even willful misconduct. It is not a character I wish the next Leader of the Free World to have. In my own conduct I am more pragmatic than ideologically motivated maybe that''s why I feel less tolerance for politicians who feel they can mold the world (and other people) to their ideology rather than be adaptive and learn from mistakes and make the best decisions they can based on changing information and circumstances.
Sorry if this is too harsh.
MoonWater
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Anna0499
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swimmer
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I believe what Party Gypsy was alluding to is McCain''s voting with GWB 95% of the time and M''s identical record to BWB in support of war and not supporting the troops who come home to us in need. Please correct me if I''m wrong PartGypsy.
It actually would make a great slogan...how to make it short and sweet?
It actually would make a great slogan...how to make it short and sweet?
Anna0499
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Okay...but voting as a Senator is surely different than acting as a President? Also, if the legislation passed then surely Congressional majority agreed with McCain? If you don't agree of course that is fine, but I thought the original post about trying over and over again was a bit too broad. I don't really get why she compared me to GWB, but I guess she felt it made her point?
ETA: I understand your story, but I think it is a highly attenuated analogy because whether to type a college paper is quite insignificant compared to decisions a president has to make. Also, you were given explicit instructions on how to succeed, something our leaders don't have the luxury of possessing. I know you didn't tell your anecdote to strictly compare it to your point, but I couldn't help but distinguish it from your original assertion (the law student in me).
miraclesrule
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I never heard that saying with the word "crazy" but we do refer to it a lot when we address being "stupid". The defination of stupid is doing the same thing, over and over again and expecting a different result. Even inventors love failure because it rules out an option and gets them one step closer to their discovery, but they do make changes in order to get there. If you approach a situation differently, then it isn't the same thing. Anyway, I didn't really want to address that because I was just going to cut and paste an email my aunt sent out today to all the "Ladies in the House".....and since we were collectively referred to as crazy when we were merely courageous, I just wanted to add my two cents about stupid or crazy...somedays I am probably both.
Without further ado.....
"The is the story of our Grandmothers, and Great-grandmothers, as they
lived only 90 years ago. It was not until 1920 that women were granted
the right to go to the polls and vote.
Thus unfolded the 'Night of Terror' on Nov. 15,1917, when the warden
at the Occoquan Workhouse in Virginia ordered his guards to teach a
lesson to the suffragists imprisoned there because they dared to
picket Woodrow Wilson's White House for the right to vote.
The women were innocent and defenseless. And by the end of the night,
they were barely alive. Forty prison guards wielding clubs and their
warden's blessing went on a rampage against the 33 women wrongly
convicted of 'obstructing sidewalk traffic.'
They beat Lucy Burn, chained her hands to the cell bars above her head
an d left her hanging for the night, bleeding and gasping for air. They
hurled Dora Lewis into a dark cell, smashed her head against an iron
bed and knocked her out cold. Her cell mate, Alice Cosu, thought Lewis
was dead and suffered a heart attack. Additional affidavits describe
the guards grabbing, dragging, beating, choking, slamming, pinching,
twisting and kicking the women.
For weeks, the women's only water came from an open pail. Their
food--all of it colorless slop--was infested with worms. When one of
the leaders, Alice Paul, embarked on a hunger strike, they tied her to
a chair, forced a tube down her throat and poured liquid into her
until she vomited. She was tortured like this for weeks until word was
smuggled out to the press.
So, refresh my memory. Some women won't vote this year because--why,
exactly? We have carpool duties? We have to get to work? Our vote
doesn't matter? It's raining?
Last week, I went to a sparsely attended screening of HBO's new movie
'Iron Jawed Angels.' It is a graphic depiction of the battle these
women waged so that I could pull the curtain at the polling booth and
have my say. I am ashamed to say I needed the reminder.
All these years later, voter registration is still my passion. But the
actual act of voting had become less personal for me, more rote.
Frankly, voting often felt more like an obligation than a privilege.
Sometimes it was inconvenient.
My friend Wendy, who is my age and studied women's history, saw the
HBO movie, too. When she stopped by my desk to talk about it, she
looked angry. She was--with herself. 'One thought kept coming back to
me as I watched that movie,' she said. 'What would those women think
of the way I use--or don't use--my right to vote? All of u s take it
for granted now, not just younger women, but those of us who did seek
to learn.' The right to vote, she said, had become valuable to her
'all over again.'
HBO released the movie on video and DVD. I wish all history, social
studies and government teachers would include the movie in their
curriculum. I want it shown on Bunco night, too, and anywhere else
women gather. I realize this isn't our usual idea of socializing, but
we are not voting in the numbers that we should be, and I think a
little shock therapy is in order.
It is jarring to watch Woodrow Wilson and his cronies try to persuade
a psychiatrist to declare Alice Paul insane so that she could be
permanently institutionalized. And it is inspiring to watch the doctor
refuse. Alice Paul was strong, he said, and brave. That didn't make
her crazy.
The doctor admonished the men: 'Courage in women is often mistaken for
insanity.'
Please, if you are so inclined, pass this on to all the women you
know. We need to get out and vote and use this right that was fought
so hard for by these very courageous women. Whether you vote
democratic, republican or independent party - remember to vote."
"The is the story of our Grandmothers, and Great-grandmothers, as they
lived only 90 years ago. It was not until 1920 that women were granted
the right to go to the polls and vote.
Thus unfolded the 'Night of Terror' on Nov. 15,1917, when the warden
at the Occoquan Workhouse in Virginia ordered his guards to teach a
lesson to the suffragists imprisoned there because they dared to
picket Woodrow Wilson's White House for the right to vote.
The women were innocent and defenseless. And by the end of the night,
they were barely alive. Forty prison guards wielding clubs and their
warden's blessing went on a rampage against the 33 women wrongly
convicted of 'obstructing sidewalk traffic.'
They beat Lucy Burn, chained her hands to the cell bars above her head
an d left her hanging for the night, bleeding and gasping for air. They
hurled Dora Lewis into a dark cell, smashed her head against an iron
bed and knocked her out cold. Her cell mate, Alice Cosu, thought Lewis
was dead and suffered a heart attack. Additional affidavits describe
the guards grabbing, dragging, beating, choking, slamming, pinching,
twisting and kicking the women.
For weeks, the women's only water came from an open pail. Their
food--all of it colorless slop--was infested with worms. When one of
the leaders, Alice Paul, embarked on a hunger strike, they tied her to
a chair, forced a tube down her throat and poured liquid into her
until she vomited. She was tortured like this for weeks until word was
smuggled out to the press.
So, refresh my memory. Some women won't vote this year because--why,
exactly? We have carpool duties? We have to get to work? Our vote
doesn't matter? It's raining?
Last week, I went to a sparsely attended screening of HBO's new movie
'Iron Jawed Angels.' It is a graphic depiction of the battle these
women waged so that I could pull the curtain at the polling booth and
have my say. I am ashamed to say I needed the reminder.
All these years later, voter registration is still my passion. But the
actual act of voting had become less personal for me, more rote.
Frankly, voting often felt more like an obligation than a privilege.
Sometimes it was inconvenient.
My friend Wendy, who is my age and studied women's history, saw the
HBO movie, too. When she stopped by my desk to talk about it, she
looked angry. She was--with herself. 'One thought kept coming back to
me as I watched that movie,' she said. 'What would those women think
of the way I use--or don't use--my right to vote? All of u s take it
for granted now, not just younger women, but those of us who did seek
to learn.' The right to vote, she said, had become valuable to her
'all over again.'
HBO released the movie on video and DVD. I wish all history, social
studies and government teachers would include the movie in their
curriculum. I want it shown on Bunco night, too, and anywhere else
women gather. I realize this isn't our usual idea of socializing, but
we are not voting in the numbers that we should be, and I think a
little shock therapy is in order.
It is jarring to watch Woodrow Wilson and his cronies try to persuade
a psychiatrist to declare Alice Paul insane so that she could be
permanently institutionalized. And it is inspiring to watch the doctor
refuse. Alice Paul was strong, he said, and brave. That didn't make
her crazy.
The doctor admonished the men: 'Courage in women is often mistaken for
insanity.'
Please, if you are so inclined, pass this on to all the women you
know. We need to get out and vote and use this right that was fought
so hard for by these very courageous women. Whether you vote
democratic, republican or independent party - remember to vote."
HollyS
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iluvcarats
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I think his speech was great. He is a compelling and dynamic speaker.
I want America to be a better country.
I want everyone to have health care.
I want all children to have the education they deserve.
I want to be independent from foreign oil.
I want to bring our troops home.
I want industry and jobs to come home to America.
I want to protect R v Wade.
I want to uphold separation btwn church and state.
I want everyone to have equal rights.
I want to penalize companies for sending jobs oversees.
I want to reward companies for creating jobs here.
We definitely do need a change.
but
I DON''T want to pay any more taxes!
still undecided
Anna0499
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I''m undecided as well...being a great orator is a fine attribute to have, but it is definitely not one of the things I look for in a president. I feel that the next president will only be "prepping" things for the winner of the 2012 election, as most of the promises made thus far (in both campaigns) won''t be fully implemented (if at all) in four short years (i.e. universal health care).
diamondfan
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I missed it!
I really wanted to see him though I also really did not, as the grandiosity and celebrity tone of things is starting to really grate on me. He seems sooooo in love with his voice and his rhetoric but once the frenzy dies down then what?
I agree that one term is not going to yield all the changes we seek. It will be a start but some of these things take many years to come to pass.
I really wanted to see him though I also really did not, as the grandiosity and celebrity tone of things is starting to really grate on me. He seems sooooo in love with his voice and his rhetoric but once the frenzy dies down then what?
I agree that one term is not going to yield all the changes we seek. It will be a start but some of these things take many years to come to pass.
MoonWater
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Date: 8/28/2008 10:12:57 PM
Author: miraclesrule
I never heard that saying with the word ''crazy'' but we do refer to it a lot when we address being ''stupid''. The defination of stupid is doing the same thing, over and over again and expecting a different result. Even inventors love failure because it rules out an option and gets them one step closer to their discovery, but they do make changes in order to get there. If you approach a situation differently, then it isn''t the same thing. Anyway, I didn''t really want to address that because I was just going to cut and paste an email my aunt sent out today to all the ''Ladies in the House''.....and since we were collectively referred to as crazy when we were merely courageous, I just wanted to add my two cents about stupid or crazy...somedays I am probably both.Without further ado.....
Haha, miracles I thought the same exact thing (that it was more stupid than crazy). Incidentally, Obama used that quote (Part Gypsy, he must be reading PS
Great email you posted as well. The same could be said for black Americans. It''s a damn shame how quickly people forget the past and take the rights they did not always have for granted...or worse, don''t even take advantage of them.
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Sorry for not replying sooner, was watching the convention! It was an electric speech, I''m glad he got a little "angry" because I think there are alot of people deep down who are very angry at the turn this country has made, and he made the point that this is not an ordinary election. To turn away from that fact and simply compare the politician on "talking points" is missing the point. There were older people who took the stage, many individuals who were independent, Republican, who or had simply become apathetic about politics who felt that this was the most significant election year since Kenneday ran. I''m not that old so I can''t tell you.
I agree with Diamondfan that yes, nothing is going to be solved in the next 4 years (except maybe withdrawal in Iraq) but it will start us on the path. Some of the main things that Obama states is independence from foreign oil, a foreign policy that is cooperative and only goes after terrorists or countries who attack us (not preemptive strategy), healthcare, and service through government (either military or domestic) that allows one to attend college, and upholding Roe vs Wade. And I''m glad he mentioned going through the budget line by line and getting rid of programs that don''t work, balancing the budget. I work hard for my money and while I don''t mind paying taxes I want my taxes to be used in the most efficient way. Due to the virtue of not being in Washington for the past 26 years he has not developed all these beholden relationships with lobbyists that must be fed. He is in a unique position to streamline some stuff, and I believe has the policy wonk sensibility to do it in an appropriate way. He talks about the similarities that bind us, not the differences or predijucies that divde, which is a very different message than the Republican Party.
The two biggest reasons I am voting for Obama (though there are many) is one simply I think he would do the best at this job which requires diplomacy, working cooperatively rather than antagonisticlly (McCain cant even play nice in his own party), a quick, incisive, nuanced mind.
The second is the whole foreign policy question. Obama from the very beginning was against the Iraq War. He was also from the very beginning for us hunting down and getting Bin Laden, investing troops to capture or kill him. He has been on the right side of foreign policy decisions that he has been involved with, which mades me think he sees things from a clear rather than knee jerk or ideological manner. There are times that McCain is pro cooperative strategies, but there are other times he says things that make me wince and are more hawkish than even Bush (especially about Iraq and Iran). He is kind of all over the place with what he says, to who. This makes me think either he either has an unconsistent policy, or simply unpredictable, or he says what he needs to get elected. We definitely do not need a swaggering cowboy type in this arena, a person whom other people close to him for a long time say they would be very afraid if he was near the "buttons". We need to design an exit strategy for Iraq. We do not need to get involved in yet another conflict (such as Iran). I don''t trust McCain in foreign policy.
I agree with Diamondfan that yes, nothing is going to be solved in the next 4 years (except maybe withdrawal in Iraq) but it will start us on the path. Some of the main things that Obama states is independence from foreign oil, a foreign policy that is cooperative and only goes after terrorists or countries who attack us (not preemptive strategy), healthcare, and service through government (either military or domestic) that allows one to attend college, and upholding Roe vs Wade. And I''m glad he mentioned going through the budget line by line and getting rid of programs that don''t work, balancing the budget. I work hard for my money and while I don''t mind paying taxes I want my taxes to be used in the most efficient way. Due to the virtue of not being in Washington for the past 26 years he has not developed all these beholden relationships with lobbyists that must be fed. He is in a unique position to streamline some stuff, and I believe has the policy wonk sensibility to do it in an appropriate way. He talks about the similarities that bind us, not the differences or predijucies that divde, which is a very different message than the Republican Party.
The two biggest reasons I am voting for Obama (though there are many) is one simply I think he would do the best at this job which requires diplomacy, working cooperatively rather than antagonisticlly (McCain cant even play nice in his own party), a quick, incisive, nuanced mind.
The second is the whole foreign policy question. Obama from the very beginning was against the Iraq War. He was also from the very beginning for us hunting down and getting Bin Laden, investing troops to capture or kill him. He has been on the right side of foreign policy decisions that he has been involved with, which mades me think he sees things from a clear rather than knee jerk or ideological manner. There are times that McCain is pro cooperative strategies, but there are other times he says things that make me wince and are more hawkish than even Bush (especially about Iraq and Iran). He is kind of all over the place with what he says, to who. This makes me think either he either has an unconsistent policy, or simply unpredictable, or he says what he needs to get elected. We definitely do not need a swaggering cowboy type in this arena, a person whom other people close to him for a long time say they would be very afraid if he was near the "buttons". We need to design an exit strategy for Iraq. We do not need to get involved in yet another conflict (such as Iran). I don''t trust McCain in foreign policy.
HollyS
Ideal_Rock
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You need to check the Congressional Record for accurate voting records; not rely on the media or left-wing pundits to tell you that, 95% of the time, McCain voted with Bush. Since the majority of votes are by acclaimation in both houses, because the majority of votes are not about policy or real issues, it can be said that anyone votes with the President 95% of the time. McCain has not voted with Bush on some very key issues in this campaign, including energy, the surge, health initiatives, etc. If you are going to have an opinion, back it with real knowledge. Not a rote memorization of what you''ve been told.
Oh, and folks, we are not in a recession. We had a 3.3% upswing in the economy yesterday. And if you think that''s a small percentage, then once again, you don''t have a clue as to what is true and what is campaign rhetoric. Turn off MSNBC, CNN, CBS, and NBC. Read a newspaper, even the liberal rags, so you can read between the lines. Soundbites are soundbites because they sound good, and people remember them. Doesn''t necessarily make them true.
HollyS
Ideal_Rock
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I had never heard more than snippets of his other speeches, since I had not been near a TV when he was speaking. I specifically sat down with an open mind, as I had seen some things in the past week that gave me some hope, and was completely turned off.
He was strident. He was petulant. He was not inspiring. He made pronouncements, and promises without backing either up. He ranted against Bush (who is not running; we do know that at this point, don't we?) because that's the best way of getting to McCain, he thinks. No. How about we meet McCain on a level playing field? He railed against the 'awful state of things in America'; made wild, out-his-butt promises to 'fix' things, without a plan or ideas of 'how' to fix them.
He said exactly what every Democrat, in every election year, has said. He was doing his John Kerry impersonation, and look how well that worked in 2004. He didn't have any new 'problems' to talk about, or and new 'ideas' of how to get rid of said 'problems'. My question is, since the Dems have controlled the Congress the majority of the time, while Republicans have been in the White House most of the time, why has Congress never gotten any decent legislation off the ground for the 'problems' they keep harping on? It isn't the President who has vetoed their 'fixes', it's that they don't bring it to the table to start with. And I'm not over stating this. Nancy Pelosi was going to 'fix' things too, after she assumed leadership. We're still waiting.
Anna0499
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Great points Holly. I really hate how the media is able to spin ANY "fact" & most Americans buy into it. There is a radio station here in Indianapolis (catered towards African-American youths) who has taken it upon itself to pretty much hold an Obama rally every single morning on the air. I switched radio stations because I couldn't stand the lopsidedness of their rhetoric - praising anyone who called in support of Obama & berating anyone who called in support of McCain. They even insulted MLK Jr.'s daughter for supporting McCain due to his stance on abortion, assuming that she "owed" it to her race to support Obama.
I have more faith in the American PEOPLE than I ever will in any single man (president) to improve the nation's economy.
I agree with Diamondfan that the DNC has turned into some sort of celebrity red carpet. When concerts are being held around the Convention making it look more like a music festival than a political gathering then something is wrong IMHO.
ETA: I would also encourage those saying that Obama has always been against the Iraq War to examine more closely his voting record...he voted against starting the war but he has also either not voted or supported several other measures related to the war...
HollyS
Ideal_Rock
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Indy: what the Dems have yet to figure out is this: middle America votes. All the time. Middle America works. All the time. Middle America holds the economy in the palm of its hand. All the time. Middle America doesn''t have a clue who most of those Hollywood people even are, and they don''t care what Oprah thinks. But Middle America will decide who the next president will be, because they always have. You would think they would ''play'' to Middle America, instead of the people they already have in their back pocket.
Anna0499
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I agree...I used to think that the Democratic party was more concerned with working class citizens, but when I see so much coverage of the DNC on Access Hollywood and read about all the celebrity parties taking place around the Convention it makes me sick. Anyone who would base their vote on what any of those celebrities think need to be smacked upside the head! Sadly, I know many people of my generation do/will. It seems that the Dems have the MTV kids in their corner, but they really should branch out because McCain is gaining on them...
MoonWater
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MoonWater
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Anna0499
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Moonwater - I was not talking to you in my ETA - I was referring to the post which mentioned that Obama has been on the "right side" of foreign policy voting everytime. People complain about the spending in Iraq, but the truth is CONGRESS, including Obama, has APPROVED this legislation. It has not been a one man show, although I understand the tendency to want to WHOLLY blame Bush for everything wrong with this country. I choose to place responsibility upon those who make the laws as well.
Also, several DNCs have been held without these celebrity sightings, so I''m sure the Dems could find SOMETHING to do...perhaps brush up on their foreign policy? Or inform Dems more extensively of Obama''s plans? It''s not as if those attending past DNCs have sat there and stared at the wall.
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The article below argues that while the United States is not heading for a depression that will be as calamitous as The Great Depression that followed the stock market crash in 1929, that the economic effect on a working family is indistinguishable from a recession. Statistics can be played to say whatever one likes. I am sure that you can find some to refute these and I can find some to refute the ones you find. What I am trying to prove by quoting from this article, however, is that I read a newspaper...albeit one that you would, I am sure, consider an...er...liberal rag. (Or, as my husband calls, "The New York Tmes" [which I regard as far too conservative], "The New York Pravda". )
In other words, I met your criterion. I went to a print source. And my print source claims that working Americans are suffering, as does my candidate. As do my senses whe I see the unemployment figures in the newspapers and read about home foreclosures and the slump in the housing market. I also do not imagine the national debt or the war in Iraq that is killing both Americans and Iraqis to no purpose and at great taxpayer expense. The Republicans have spent very foolishly and working Americans paid for it. You, personally, may not want to vote for a Democrat but to assert that there is factual basis for dissatisfaction with the economy is going a bit too far.
The article follows.
August 6, 2008
Economists Plumb the Depths of the Downturn
By ABHA BHATTARAI
"Even if the economy continues to deteriorate, economists generally agree that the United States is not heading for another Great Depression.
Not only are the conditions far less dire, eight economists said in interviews, but the government is playing a heightened role in trying to cushion the impact of the housing downturn, losses at financial institutions and rising unemployment.
'The government is larger now and it acts as an anchor,' said Richard Parker, senior fellow at the Shorenstein Center at Harvard. 'During the Great Depression, the government had neither the means nor the capability to serve as a backstop.'
But the economists — who range from academics to policy researchers, liberals to conservatives — disagreed about just how bad this economic slowdown, led by the worst housing slump since the Depression, could be.
'I think we’ll see a miserable job market and, consequently, an eroded standard of living for the vast majority of Americans for several years,' said Lawrence Mishel, president of the Economic Policy Institute, a liberal research organization in Washington.
'This is indistinguishable from a recession for a working family,' Mr. Mishel said. 'They’re losing jobs, and they’re getting a
double bite as wage growth slows down and inflation kicks up. People are losing out on both ends.'
Deborah
MoonWater
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My bad, I thought when something was posted publically anyone could respond. I''m not sure what the whole blame Bush for everything has to do with my comment. But whatevs...
As far as the DNC, well, if I recall correctly, this was the first time it was open to the public. So again, I ask, what would you do to keep that many people occupied and full of enthusiasm all day? I tell ya, only talking policy will not do it. I thought it was a nice blend of both, sure I hated damn near every music act...wait...I hated ALL the music acts that played but I understood it''s purpose. Music is one of the best ways to keep people pumped and motivated. Oh and I really don''t think tonight''s convention would have been a good time to "brush up on foreign policy," I would hope they''d do that behind the scenes.
MoonWater
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Anna0499
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Oh, I have no problem with you responding - I was just clarifying that I wasn't talking about you in my post...if you read that then you would know that I also wasn't talking about you blaming Bush so don't try to figure out what it had to do with your comment because it had nothing to do with it from the start.
Maybe talking policy should get people "pumped and motivated," because many of the people voting for Obama that I have encountered have no idea what his plans are, they just like his promises. I would rather listen to his plans for implementing universal health care and the withdrawal from Iraq than any of the celebrities featured...which IS my point...the whole focus of the DNC has shifted to a place I would not like if I was a Dem. If you like it, then that's fine.
Anna0499
Brilliant_Rock
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I don''t identify with either political party, but I blame BOTH parties equally...after all, there is Democratic majority in both houses of Congress, the people who actually legislate.Date: 8/29/2008 9:21:56 AM
Author: AGBF
The article below argues that while the United States is not heading for a depression that will be as calamitous as The Great Depression that followed the stock market crash in 1929, that the economic effect on a working family is indistinguishable from a recession. Statistics can be played to say whatever one likes. I am sure that you can find some to refute these and I can find some to refute the ones you find. What I am trying to prove by quoting from this article, however, is that I read a newspaper...albeit one that you would, I am sure, consider an...er...liberal rag. (Or, as my husband calls, ''The New York Tmes'' [which I regard as far too conservative], ''The New York Pravda''. )
In other words, I met your criterion. I went to a print source. And my print source claims that working Americans are sufering, as does my candidate. As do my senses whe I see the unemployment figures in the newspapers and read about home foreclosures and the slump in the housing market. I also do not imagine the national debt or the war in Iraq that is killing bot Americans and Irais to no purpose and at great taxpayer expense. The Republicans have spent very foolishly and working Americans paid for it. You, personally, may not want to vote for a Democrat but to assert that there is factual basis for dissatisfaction with the economy is going a bit too far.
Deborah
MoonWater
Ideal_Rock
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Well then I suppose you should understand why my response to your ETA was appropriate, whether you were talking to me or not. You made a general statement that people should look further and I told you what I found when I did when someone first tried to make that same argument. Also, I was confused about the Bush comment because at that time, you were responding to me. So, I just didn't get it.
Policy, yeah, maybe it should get people worked up, but it doesn't, oh well. I wish common sense was actually common, but it ain't, oh well. The average person just doesn't seem to care beyond what impacts them directly. They take the pieces they need and if they believe the candidate will work for them, they go for it. Hell, some people don't go that deep and just pick people on instinct, or a feeling. Some people vote against their own interest just to teach the other guy a lesson. So we can wish all day that more people did their research and cared about the details but it's not going to happen. And for the DNC to try to force that on the majority would be absolutely idiotic. You have that many people in a stadium for that many hours, you damn well better play some freaking music.
I don't need to like it personally because I don't expect everything to be tailored to my individual needs. I know, like all should know, that if I want the details, if I want the policy, I'm not looking at the tv to get it and I'm not looking for it in freaking speeches. The internet has an amazing amount of information. I wish more people would use it before complaining about what's on the tv screen (and this is in general so don't take personal offense).
Anna0499
Brilliant_Rock
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I was rseponding to your confusion about my post & clarified my statements...hopefully I cleared things up for you. My statement wasn't general but referred to a very specific post in which Obama's voting record in regards to the Iraq War was mentioned. If you spoke about that then yes, my response was to you, but if not, then it wasn't.
Policy (not just foreign policy) *does* affect people in their everyday lives...I wish more people would take an interest in it for that very reason, but I guess not all voters want to be informed. Policy is what enacts legislation and is the means and ends for every decision a political leader makes. So I would hope that policy would interest people. I would also hope that those attending the DNC would care about it as well, more so than seeing their favorite act on the stage. Just seems like a wrong forum. People can have their own reasons for voting, but I take that right very seriously and I have an idealistic hope that others do the same. I realize this is not true everytime I turn on the radio or TV.
I don't expect the DNC to be "tailored" to my needs because I am not a Democrat. I was merely expressing an opinion that, as an undecided voter, the DNC completely turned me off with all of the celebrity focus. Since Barack's own website is void of details of the plans he seeks to implement to accomplish his goals, I was hoping the DNC would offer some information, but it didn't. The Internet is usually not the place to go to find reliable information. But I guess speeches and Conventions are all about rousing up the crowd nowadays. I look forward to comparing the two Conventions.
I understand you are an Obama supporter, but everytime somenoe expresses a contrary opinion it is not necessary to attack them for their viewpoints...
ETA: I'm not offended by ANYTHING anyone has said on here...I just think an open dialogue would be more helpful than trying to discredit/argue about everything someone posts.
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