Why Would One Choose MMD Over Real?

[ChristineRose]

Actually most people should not buy a man made diamond. They are rarely well cut, the selection is poor, and the certificates are just so-so. GCAL is good but you can't translate GCAL to GIA the way you can translate AGS to GIA. In high colors they tend to be gray, not yellow, and while they generally have fewer inclusions, they may have inclusions not found in mined diamonds. And last, but not least, the whole market is soaked with frauds selling $1 worth of CZ, because if you can't tell CZ from diamond, you likely can't tell $1 CZ from $100 CZ either.

All this adds up to more work to find one, and pretty much impossible to do a head to head comparison with a mined diamond. Which makes it easy to convince people they are getting a bargain compared to a mined diamond, when you might actually do better with an ideal cut diamond with a drop in color and clarity, which also pretty much means a mined stone.

So what's the appeal? What's the appeal of mined diamonds? To quote the great Neil Beaty:

Diamonds are cool. Lab diamonds are cool.

There are a pretty decent number of people who specifically want a lab diamond, and they deserve to get help picking one out without a bunch of judgmental people lecturing them.

 

[twang07]

I might be biased because the only people I know that want to choose an MMD over a mined are men, and they are speaking theoretically (as in, they haven't started researching diamonds period). The guys that I know want to buy one think it's more economical and they won't have to have their hands dirty in blood diamonds.

I personally wouldn't have a problem buying man-made if there was some kind of gold-standard for MMDs, like the GIA or the AGS. Since I'm not really knowledgeable to know what I'm buying its hard to evaluate if the price is fair... maybe one day this will get sorted out, and I would happily purchase one!

 

[PrismBaby]

The purpose of this post is purely educational. Please report or delete if this is not appropriate.

From my eyes, MmDs consist of CZs and Moisannites along with other simulants that are sometimes easy to detect with a trained eye. Personally, the facet junctions give it away, especially when they get a bit of muck on them.

Then there are diamonds that have the same chemical structure as a geographical diamond, except it’s made by men and women in a lab. Which I know can be argued as MmD!

As far as cut goes, thankfully a few common labs that certify them, list the CA, PA, and LGF so we are all still capable of finding one with synchronic dimensions.

Then there is the randomness of which body color/hue/tone that it will develop.. I personally love it when they lean towards the ever so slightest pink or brown hue. For clarity grading, it’s so far been acceptable in relation to GIA.

Overall, I think they are something different but similar and interesting that has to be explored with a open mind and full disclosure from both sides.

Hope this sheds some light on a taboo subject!

Xoxo

 

[Bron357]

As the saying goes ‘you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink”!
You tried.
As long as your friend / acquaintance is delighted with her ring, that’s all that really matters. Until she decides to upgrade and finds that 1. No one buys MMD second hand and 2. no other jeweller is going to accept it even as a part trade.
Oh well.

 

[Dancing Fire]

 

[MTHealthyLiving]

Lol! I AGREE!

 

[Luminous1]

Well- High end jewelers do sell rings with CZ centers. As one sales associate told me, they sell them to young adults just starting out who can't yet afford the diamond. They then swap the CZ out in a few years with a diamond. To give this store pricescope cred they even have an ASET.

I have both types of diamonds- a lab made diamond and a mined diamond. Both are beautiful. I'm not a snob when it comes to diamonds. The more the merrier.

 

[ChristineRose]

From my eyes, MmDs consist of CZs and Moisannites along with other simulants that are sometimes easy to detect with a trained eye. Personally, the facet junctions give it away, especially when they get a bit of muck on them.

Then there are diamonds that have the same chemical structure as a geographical diamond, except it’s made by men and women in a lab. Which I know can be argued as MmD!

This, to me, is a huge part of the problem. The majority of "lab diamonds" are sims, not actual lab diamonds. The industry requires the growers to call them "synthetic diamonds," but they have done nothing to crack down on the fakes.

Oddly enough the legal challenges have come from the people who make high end CZ and Moissanite. They don't like seeing their own products slandered by someone who's selling a low-end CZ.

Mossanites are fairly easy to detect once you know what to look for. Tests have shown that no one can tell a CZ under normal viewing conditions. Some people claim they can, but I don't know if they've proved it.

However there are giveaways. For example, if it's all chipped, it's more likely a CZ. If it's badly cut, or has visible inclusions, it's more likely a diamond. I don't know if anyone has gone to the trouble of making a bunch of badly cut, included CZ just for a test though. If someone could get 20 of 20 from a mixed batch of cut, colored, and included diamonds and CZ, mounted in rings, and in normal lighting, and under normal viewing conditions, I'd be impressed.

 

[MTHealthyLiving]

Well- High end jewelers do sell rings with CZ centers. As one sales associate told me, they sell them to young adults just starting out who can't yet afford the diamond. They then swap the CZ out in a few years with a diamond. To give this store pricescope cred they even have an ASET.

I have both types of diamonds- a lab made diamond and a mined diamond. Both are beautiful. I'm not a snob when it comes to diamonds. The more the merrier.

I suppose that make sense. But I will honestly say, Samuels is the first place I’ve seen that advertises CZs in the ring. And selling rings with CZ for thousands? That seems insane to me.

 

[Babyblue033]

From my eyes, MmDs consist of CZs and Moisannites along with other simulants that are sometimes easy to detect with a trained eye. Personally, the facet junctions give it away, especially when they get a bit of muck on them.

Then there are diamonds that have the same chemical structure as a geographical diamond, except it’s made by men and women in a lab. Which I know can be argued as MmD!

I think I'm confused by the terminology. Technically, isn't it (or shouldn't it) be the other way around?

MmD = actual DIAMONDS that are made in a lab. vs.
CZ/Moissy = not diamonds at all

Is that those terminologies & distinctions are not used properly which is confusing the matter even further?

In my mind, if I had mined diamond & MmD cut in the same ideal cut (I know it's not usually the case but let's assume), it would make no difference whatsoever since they're both DIAMONDS and will have same characteristics. While I would prefer mined diamonds for "mind clean" perspective, if the price was right and cut was good enough, I don't see any reason not to consider MmD.

 

[MTHealthyLiving]

I think I'm confused by the terminology. Technically, isn't it (or shouldn't it) be the other way around?

MmD = actual DIAMONDS that are made in a lab. vs.
CZ/Moissy = not diamonds at all

Is that those terminologies & distinctions are not used properly which is confusing the matter even further?

In my mind, if I had mined diamond & MmD cut in the same ideal cut (I know it's not usually the case but let's assume), it would make no difference whatsoever since they're both DIAMONDS and will have same characteristics. While I would prefer mined diamonds for "mind clean" perspective, if the price was right and cut was good enough, I don't see any reason not to consider MmD.

It’s my understanding that MMD are not any cheaper due to the lengthy process and expensive equipment to grow them. I’m not sure if technologies have made them better, but at one point MMDs were also more yellow, and could not be made white due to extensively lengthy growing processes. I’ve also read that colored MMDs are the only MM stones that are significantly cheaper.
I’ve also seen that the resale of MMDS are pretty much impossible.

 

[PrismBaby]

I think I'm confused by the terminology. Technically, isn't it (or shouldn't it) be the other way around?

MmD = actual DIAMONDS that are made in a lab. vs.
CZ/Moissy = not diamonds at all

Is that those terminologies & distinctions are not used properly which is confusing the matter even further?

You're correct and I do agree with you. The reason why I naturally think of CZ and Moissy when MmD is mentioned is because many of my customers link the exact phrase 'MmD' to CZ and Moissy and I like to make the separation there that lab grown diamonds are the ones that have the same make up as a geographical diamond.

I guess it's ultimately separating Man Made Diamond from Lab Grown Diamonds but maybe their needs to a more distinct separation since those two terminologies can be easily be interchangeable.

 

[SandyinAnaheim]

I also had a friend who was getting married and came to me asking for advice on diamonds. I met with her and her fiancee for a few hours and discussed diamonds and vendors, my experience diamond hunting, what to look for, what to stay away from, etc. He went out and bought her a 1 ct MMD and spent $1700 set in a ring and all. I was shocked.

He doesn't see the value of real diamonds over synthetic or lab-created. He's happy with it, and she seems to be as well. Time will tell. I know I wouldn't have been happy with it. I don't buy much, but when I do, I want the highest quality I can afford.

Moral of the story: Not everyone is the same and people have different value systems.

 

[MTHealthyLiving]

I also had a friend who was getting married and came to me asking for advice on diamonds. I met with her and her fiancee for a few hours and discussed diamonds and vendors, my experience diamond hunting, what to look for, what to stay away from, etc. He went out and bought her a 1 ct MMD and spent $1700 set in a ring and all. I was shocked.

He doesn't see the value of real diamonds over synthetic or lab-created. He's happy with it, and she seems to be as well. Time will tell. I know I wouldn't have been happy with it. I don't buy much, but when I do, I want the highest quality I can afford.

Moral of the story: Not everyone is the same and people have different value systems.

You are so right in how different people are. But it blows me away, the lack of research people do before making purchases. Like, do you want the best for your money, or do you want something subpar that might have little to no resale value?
I’m with you on buying the highest quality affordable.
MMD to me are kind of like designer handbags made for outlet stores. You’re getting a decent designer bag for a decent price, but it’s still not the real deal.
I’d rather have one genuine $1,000 purse than 5, $200 “created” purses.
My newest diamond ring is only 1/2 carat, but by golly it’s got great quality REAL diamonds and a genuine and rare yogo sapphire.
I admit it. I’m a snob.
About most everything I buy. Lol!

 

[Karl_K]

There is a place for them and I think they will grow to be a large part of the marker over the next 100 years.

I would love a blue diamond, but I know that I will never be able to afford a mined one.
So if I get one its going to be MMD or treated.

 

[daneshpastry]

I wasn't aware that people thought manmade = CZ or moissanite. When I hear the term, I assume it's a lab grown diamond.

I also have to emphasize that lab-grown does not mean poor quality, they are generally cheaper, and GIA can certify them:

https://www.gia.edu/gem-lab-service/synthetic-diamond

As an example of cost savings, this lab-grown diamond is F, VS1, "Super Ideal Cut":

https://www.brilliantearth.com/lab-diamonds-search/view_detail/5312507/

Searching the same retailer, mined diamonds with identical specifications range from $9980 - $13490 (Canadian dollars). That's (approx.) double the cost. I know cost is very subjective, but it's interesting.

 

[OoohShiny]

I wasn't aware that people thought manmade = CZ or moissanite. When I hear the term, I assume it's a lab grown diamond.

I can't remember for certain, and it's a complete hassle to search on this phone, but IIRC it was @Wink who posted a thread on the new, revised terminology to be used in the trade, including MMDs??

 

[blueMA]

Tests have shown that no one can tell a CZ under normal viewing conditions. Some people claim they can, but I don't know if they've proved it.

This is not true and the statement is misleading. I could easily tell a CZ by the lazy reflection on the facets. In 2-3 seconds I can surely determine it's a CZ. In fact, I recently went to a local jeweler and spotted their CZ collection under their jeweler light in their display case, and they were surprised I spotted them. There are many people out there who can spot CZs.

 

[OoohShiny]

I don't buy much, but when I do, I want the highest quality I can afford.

Like, do you want the best for your money, or do you want something subpar that might have little to no resale value?
I’m with you on buying the highest quality affordable.

How are we defining 'quality' here?

A D IF Type IIa MMD cut to SuperIdeal MRB specs would, by all standard assessment tools, be better 'quality'!

Re-sale value of Mined diamonds is historically around 10-70 percent, as someone on here more wise than me has observed, and depends on many factors, so Mined diamonds could also have little or even no resale value - they are not a guaranteed, 'better' store of value!

MMD to me are kind of like designer handbags made for outlet stores. You’re getting a decent designer bag for a decent price, but it’s still not the real deal.

But they are 'the real deal' - in terms of their optical and physical properties, bar some invisible-by-the-naked-eye growth patterns.

I admit it. I’m a snob.
About most everything I buy. Lol!

That is fine, we all are to some degree

But do choose from a position of informed knowledge

 

[Johnbt]

I get so confused by all the marketing double speak. Confused and amused. Many would have me believe that if it's shaped like a diamond it must be a diamond.

A mined diamond is made of carbon, right?
A lab made diamond is also made of carbon.
Carbon is an element with atomic number 6.
Diamond is made of carbon. It's a fact.

Moissanite was discovered in a meteorite crater in Arizona by Henri Moissan over 100 years ago and is rare in nature. I never learned enough about him to know if his Nobel Prize was for mossanite, but he did win one.
Moissanite is made out of silicon dioxide - basically sand - and one form of silicon dioxide that is familiar to most people is quartz iirc correctly from science class decades ago.
Silicon is an element with atomic number 14 on the periodic table and is directly under Carbon in the next line.
But it's not carbon.

So here's my science nerd question...

How many legs does a dog have if you call his tail a leg?






Only four.

 

[WinkHPD]

I can't remember for certain, and it's a complete hassle to search on this phone, but IIRC it was @Wink who posted a thread on the new, revised terminology to be used in the trade, including MMDs??

Here you go OoohShiny.

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...s-back-standard-terminology-guideline.237456/

But please know the while these collective leading bodies (and the ISO) are urging legal adoption by the FTC and others, this has not yet happened. Thus they remain “guidelines.”

(Sigh!) One would hope that honest sellers would never try to convince you a dog has five legs!

Wink

 

[MTHealthyLiving]

How are we defining 'quality' here?

A D IF Type IIa MMD cut to SuperIdeal MRB specs would, by all standard assessment tools, be better 'quality'!

Re-sale value of Mined diamonds is historically around 10-70 percent, as someone on here more wise than me has observed, and depends on many factors, so Mined diamonds could also have little or even no resale value - they are not a guaranteed, 'better' store of value!


But they are 'the real deal' - in terms of their optical and physical properties, bar some invisible-by-the-naked-eye growth patterns.


That is fine, we all are to some degree

But do choose from a position of informed knowledge

At the end of the day, they really aren’t the real deal. Just like made for outlet bags or cultured stone.
Could you tell the difference between a Jimmy Choo bag from Nordstrom, vs. a Jimmy Choo bag made for outlet? They are both made by Jimmy Choo, but have differences that are not noticeable to the untrained eye.
And the quality and value suffer.
Would you be able to tell the difference between real river rock on your neighbors house vs. cultured? Probably not, but still very different in quality. It’s been said that margarine is one molecule away from plastic. So does that mean it’s actually plastic, or margarine? Or butter?
It’s been said time and time again that there are traits in MMDs that aren’t in diamonds and visa versa. Therefore MMDs are simply not the real deal. Just my opinion though.

 

[OoohShiny]

At the end of the day, they really aren’t the real deal. Just like made for outlet bags or cultured stone.
Could you tell the difference between a Jimmy Choo bag from Nordstrom, vs. a Jimmy Choo bag made for outlet? They are both made by Jimmy Choo, but have differences that are not noticeable to the untrained eye.
And the quality and value suffer.
Would you be able to tell the difference between real river rock on your neighbors house vs. cultured? Probably not, but still very different in quality. It’s been said that margarine is one molecule away from plastic. So does that mean it’s actually plastic, or margarine? Or butter?
It’s been said time and time again that there are traits in MMDs that aren’t in diamonds and visa versa. Therefore MMDs are simply not the real deal. Just my opinion though.

But.. but... they are the real deal! They are physically and chemically the same, unlike plastic and margarine, or the same bag made both in China and somewhere else. Yes, they can have some differences in the internal growth 'grain' when compared to Mined diamonds, and of course they have differences deoending on colour and Type, but then Mined diamonds themselves have differences in internal growth 'grain' between the different sources, if I understand things correctly, and said differences that create colour/Type.

An Oak tree of a variety X is still an Oak tree of variety X if it is grown at different places in the world and has different growth rings within it due to the environmental factors that have shaped its growth. If we could create Oak ourselves from bare atoms / constituent materials, without needing to wait 50 years for a tree to grow to a decent size before chopping it down and destroying a micro-environment, surely we would do that if it created another (physically and chemically identical) option and/or created/satisfied consumer demand without causing environmental damage, meaning the land that would otherwise be required could be used for other, more sustainable uses?

The fact that MMDs must have laser inscriptions on them so the trade and consumers know they are MMDs straight off the bat speaks volumes about just how identical they are to the human eye (which is all that really matters, surely, in what is a piece of luxury jewellery rather than being an item or tool essential for human life). If there are near-indiscernable differences at the atomic level (that can only be detected with a $$$$$ machine), they make no difference to the physical qualities or 'quality'.

If the perception is that they are lower quality, that is due to marketing manipulating public perceptions and opinions, either overtly or subconsciously (or both). If there are concomitant differences in perceived value (compared to Mined diamonds) that is also down to said marketing rather than actual, physical differences. The difference marketing can make (and how easily influenced us humans are) can be seen between the 'new' and 'secondhand' (Mined) diamond market - the same diamond can drop in value by the aforementioned 30-90% even one day after it is sold, simply because it is no longer 'new' and being sold by a vendor with a posh shop.

Marketing is a strong influence - we should challenge what is being presented to us and consider the facts behind the messages objectively.

Here you go OoohShiny.

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...s-back-standard-terminology-guideline.237456/

But please know the while these collective leading bodies (and the ISO) are urging legal adoption by the FTC and others, this has not yet happened. Thus they remain “guidelines.”

(Sigh!) One would hope that honest sellers would never try to convince you a dog has five legs!

Wink

Thank you, kind sir!

 

[rockysalamander]

Whenever people make purchases, they are exercising a choice. They are choosing one set of factors over another (e.g., price, source, brand, color, etc.). For those purchasing diamonds, they often factoring in social vs. environmental factors. For those that feel more strongly about the social costs of diamonds, mostly due to the infamous movie "blood diamonds", they feel better about laboratory-grown as while they recognize the environmental costs, they can't abide the social costs. They don't bother to find out that the war in Sierra Leon that was the subject of that movie has been over for 16 years (not to suggest problems don't remain} . The reverse is also true for those that weight the cost of production of laboratory-grown over the cost of stripping the earth (and sedimentation of rivers) to mine for diamonds. Canadian diamonds have a certain cache in the social cost group, but they also fail to incorporate the cost to the native society and environment. I helped some friends, both former Peace Corps volunteers, who served in Sierra Leon post civil war. They felt a laboratory-grown diamond was a choice that respected the history of the place they both loved.

For those that comment on the cut quality and base material, they are right. But, that is absolutely the exact same set of careful selection necessary when purchasing a colored stone. Cut matters in any gemstone. That is not unique to earth-mined. Further, we all say to poster every single day that the majority of diamonds are poorly cut. So, to me, arguments based on base material and cut precision become facts in common with all gemstones rather than offering a point of contrast for a debate. The fundamental difference is simply the processing of the materials. Diamonds come out of the earth in whole form. Laboratory grown are also made of individuals constitutes that are "pulled" from the earth. It is the processing that matters.

For the general buyer, however, I think people woefully fail to understand and do research on the full-cost accounting of the entire process to make these choices. Like most things in life, the vast majority of buyers look to the media for their information. So, few consider the environmental cost of gold mining, melee cutting, etc. The social cost of native economies being driven be consumer demand and loss to the integrity of ecosystems. The facts are messy and complicated and people want a "sound bite" of information. I'm a scientist and all those details make me only more intrigued, but I'm an odd duck in the general population.

Aside from earth-mined and laboratory-grown, moissanite is clearly here to stay provided they sort out the passivation layer of Si02 that occurs on some and not others. There are always lengthy debates about it. To me, its simply another option provided they are well-cut and the base material is of a good quality. It works for some people and not others. I think those of us that love gems have a wealth of information and ability to select performance to offer those that make the choice for a moissanite or laboratory-grown stone.

 

[KingKuda]

My view on this topic is that the saving from buying an MMD is not worth the risk around it's future value and perception.

When I was researching a few months ago, there was about a 10% saving between a mined stone I was looking at and a MMD. That to me is simply not worth the risk long term that MMD will drop significantly in value. As more a produced and flood the market, the price will go down and all of a sudden the 10% I saved actually looks far worse than it did at the time.

Natural diamonds have stayed consistent in their pricing for a long time and that gives me comfort. Not that I'd ever buy a diamond as an investment, but it's piece of mind knowing that the $15k ring I bought is still worth $15k, as opposed to the $15k ring I bought now being worth $6k because it's a MMD.

 

[bludiva]

We were offered an MMD by one of the vendors we visited who thought it was a good option for getting a more intense fancy color at a reasonable budget. I think as the sophistication increases and the colors look more natural, it will be a great option for otherwise unattainable hues, to Karl's point. Baby blue, anyone?

 

[david b]

I recently had an acquaintance come to me about finding a diamond upgrade for her engagement ring.
I told her first NOT to go back to the chain she originally bought the ring, that a much better quality diamond can be found for less than what chain stores sell them.
I gave her the link to the Blue Nile 4C's, which is very simple and easy to understand, Whiteflash, Pricescope, and reputable jewelers in our area.
Yesterday she told me she ended up going back to the chain and buying a Man Made Diamond, 1.08 carats.

Aside from the fact that MMDs don't have the environmental impact that mined diamonds do, what is the appeal?

From what I have found, they really aren't saving any $$$, and they are more yellow than mined diamonds.

What am I missing?

 

[david b]

It is not because we sell real earth mined diamonds that I say -Beware of MMD! I predict their prices will go sharply down with time since every day there are more and more labs "growing" diamonds eventually they will start competing on prices since they have huge markup.
There is no much difference between MMD and Moissanites- they are ever brighter than diamonds, and the price is $300 per 1 carat equivalent 6.5 mm , I am afraid they both will have the same price tag in few years.

David

 

[ChristineRose]

This is not true and the statement is misleading. I could easily tell a CZ by the lazy reflection on the facets. In 2-3 seconds I can surely determine it's a CZ. In fact, I recently went to a local jeweler and spotted their CZ collection under their jeweler light in their display case, and they were surprised I spotted them. There are many people out there who can spot CZs.

If you are interested in putting this to the test, I can help you to write a protocol. However it would take a dozen ideal cut, D to E, 100% eyeclean diamonds. Which you'd have to borrow, as you would obviously know your own diamonds. Maybe there's a jeweler somewhere who would set it up for a group of people who want to try it.

There are too many "what ifs" and "buts" in your story for it to be considered a proper blinded test.

 

[david b]

Hi BlueMa,

The thread was about the future prices of MMD-Man Made Diamonds which are Lab grown real genuin diamond crystals, not CZ.