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Why is Brand information on some Diamond Certificates but not others?

mwilliamanderson

Shiny_Rock
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I’ve noticed that some certificates such as those by AGS for Whiteflash and HP Diamonds state the brand of the diamond on the certificate. My own AGS certified JA True Hearts makes no mention of the brand and a recent purchaser @mvoila was wondering why Astor does not appear on his GIA certificate. Anyone know why this is? I know it’s not really needed...I’m just curious.
 

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Wewechew

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JA True Hearts isn't a "brand" stone, per say. JA sticks that name on any diamonds they find in their virtual inventory that have ideal proportions. I'm not very familiar with the Aster brand (as in how BN gets them).

WF gets their stones from several cutters, but the stones go through an extensive process in order for them to be branded as ACAs. And then of course HPD cuts all their stones in house. Aside from a marketing and branding perspective, I'm sure listing the brand of the diamond on the certificate also helps with insurance purposes and appraisals.

Hopefully a trade member will chime in more details!
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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It's surprisingly inexpensive to have GIA laser inscribe a brand name on a diamond. I believe it was about $25.
Once that's done, the brand name appears on the GIA report.
GIA will not demand any proof of "light performance" or other aspects of a brand.
I suppose if we asked them to inscribe a different companies name on a stone, I would hope they'd ask questions.....but of course we've never done that.
 

Dancing Fire

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Besides the brand label on the lab report WF and CBI used to have its logo inscribed on the girdle too. AFAIK BGD still does inscribe their logo on the girdle today. IDK if HoF does or not these days.
 

HDer

Brilliant_Rock
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JA True Hearts isn't a "brand" stone, per say. JA sticks that name on any diamonds they find in their virtual inventory that have ideal proportions. I'm not very familiar with the Aster brand (as in how BN gets them).

WF gets their stones from several cutters, but the stones go through an extensive process in order for them to be branded as ACAs. And then of course HPD cuts all their stones in house. Aside from a marketing and branding perspective, I'm sure listing the brand of the diamond on the certificate also helps with insurance purposes and appraisals.

Hopefully a trade member will chime in more details!
I believe James Allen also has a deal with the cutters where those diamonds cannot be marketed (but still can be sold?) by other vendors, so you won't find them on the web anywhere except for JamesAllen.com. They might also pay the cutters an extra percent or two for this privilege, but that's just pure speculation on my part.
 

mwilliamanderson

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@MissGotRocks @Wewechew @Karl_K @Rockdiamond @Dancing Fire
Thanks everyone! It's great to learn the why’s and how’s of all these things =)2.
@mvoila bought a diamond ring from Blue Nile a few days ago. The diamond is inscribed on the girdle with the the number and Astor, but on the certificate inscription line it does not contain the word Astor. Is this something for him to be concerned about in case of loss/ theft etc.?
 

the_mother_thing

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That’s strange & would concern me that the lab report does not note an inscription on the diamond. Seems that would/could potentially present a problem if it were reported lost/stolen, as well as for insurance purposes. I think I would push the vendor to have it recertified to ensure it is accurately noted IF the diamond actually has the logo inscribed.
 

mwilliamanderson

Shiny_Rock
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That’s strange & would concern me that the lab report does not note an inscription on the diamond. Seems that would/could potentially present a problem if it were reported lost/stolen, as well as for insurance purposes. I think I would push the vendor to have it recertified to ensure it is accurately noted IF the diamond actually has the logo inscribed.
Thanks, I’ll make sure he sees this!
 

HDer

Brilliant_Rock
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Isn’t the lab the ones who do the inscription? :confused:
Well, anybody can inscribe a diamond if they have the right equipment. I'm guessing what happened in this case is exactly this:

So the only explanation i can imagine is :
- They bought this diamond (maybe already GIA engraved),
- They qualified it as "ASTØR" for commercial purposes and then engraved it after (i have seen other ASTØR diamonds with GIA certiicates reporting only for engraved GIA number although Blue Nile states "each ASTOR diamond will be engraved 'ASTØR' on its gridle". What surprises me is that GIA certificate doesn't mention it. I wonder if it may cause problem about authenticity due to engravment mismatch between diamond and certificate. I emailed them for clarification.
EDIT: To clear up any confusion, what I expect happened was that the diamond was inscribed by GIA with the certificate number when GIA graded it. Then, later, someone, either blue nile or someone they paid, inscribed the ASTOR logo on the same diamond. There's no reason for them to send it back to GIA and pay another set of grading fees.
 

Rockdiamond

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There's no reason for them to send it back to GIA and pay another set of grading fees.
I'm not commenting on any company- but as a general comment- I disagree HDer.
Once an inscription is on a diamond, I ( if I'm the buyer) need to see that on the GIA report. A difference like ( the presence of an inscription not noted on the report) basically invalidates the GIA report.
 

mvoila

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I'm not commenting on any company- but as a general comment- I disagree HDer.
Once an inscription is on a diamond, I ( if I'm the buyer) need to see that on the GIA report. A difference like ( the presence of an inscription not noted on the report) basically invalidates the GIA report.
Hello everybody,

I agree with the event schedule ( GIA diamond engraved by GIA and after engraved by another company) of HDer ( this how i explain the situation)
My main concern is what you said in your last reply. Is a certificate voided if there is a mismatch between what is engraved on the diamond and what the certificate states?
What you said seems to me logic ( although i have no knowledge in this field). I am waiting seller answer ( the debate is not about a specific company it is about cetificate requirements to be valid). Maybe asking GIA will be a good idea?
 
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the_mother_thing

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I'm not commenting on any company- but as a general comment- I disagree HDer.
Once an inscription is on a diamond, I ( if I'm the buyer) need to see that on the GIA report. A difference like ( the presence of an inscription not noted on the report) basically invalidates the GIA report.
I would absolutely agree with this as a consumer. If a diamond is ‘certified’ by GIA or any other lab, including clarity plot and other identifying criteria noted on the report, then someone later does something to change the identity of that diamond where it no longer matches exactly back to the GIA report, then - as a buyer - I want a new report issued.

Who’s to say they didn’t also chip the girdle or maybe nick a facet while adding that logo to the girdle and have it touched up to fix it, reducing the carat weight, or the symmetry, or measurements or polishing out a natural that was plotted ... albeit even only microscopically ... it does not matter. They altered the diamond from what the lab identified that diamond to be/have, and are misrepresenting what that diamond is/has/performs/etc. - PERIOD. Because now the diamond does not match the lab report.

Look at it this way ... say you buy it and experience a loss and file a claim with your insurance. You tell the adjuster “it was an Astor branded ideal cut diamond” and hand them the GIA XXX report, which does not state it was an Astor branded Ideal cut. Wanna guess what your insurance company is going to give you? You’re gonna get a ‘run of the mill XXX’ replacement diamond, because that’s what your lab report states. And I would bet any appraiser worth their salt would recommend (if you do get an appraisal) “get a new lab report because this diamond does not match what your report states.” I could be wrong there, by why risk it when you’re spending money for a ‘luxury’ item?

I am rather shocked this hasn’t been brought up more often if it’s a ‘reputable’ dealer selling diamonds like this. :doh:If they wouldn’t get it recert’d, I would personally shop elsewhere. YMMV
 

HDer

Brilliant_Rock
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I would absolutely agree with this as a consumer. If a diamond is ‘certified’ by GIA or any other lab, including clarity plot and other identifying criteria noted on the report, then someone later does something to change the identity of that diamond where it no longer matches exactly back to the GIA report, then - as a buyer - I want a new report issued.

Who’s to say they didn’t also chip the girdle or maybe nick a facet while adding that logo to the girdle and have it touched up to fix it, reducing the carat weight, or the symmetry, or measurements or polishing out a natural that was plotted ... albeit even only microscopically ... it does not matter. They altered the diamond from what the lab identified that diamond to be/have, and are misrepresenting what that diamond is/has/performs/etc. - PERIOD. Because now the diamond does not match the lab report.

Look at it this way ... say you buy it and experience a loss and file a claim with your insurance. You tell the adjuster “it was an Astor branded ideal cut diamond” and hand them the GIA XXX report, which does not state it was an Astor branded Ideal cut. Wanna guess what your insurance company is going to give you? You’re gonna get a ‘run of the mill XXX’ replacement diamond, because that’s what your lab report states. And I would bet any appraiser worth their salt would recommend (if you do get an appraisal) “get a new lab report because this diamond does not match what your report states.” I could be wrong there, by why risk it when you’re spending money for a ‘luxury’ item?

I am rather shocked this hasn’t been brought up more often if it’s a ‘reputable’ dealer selling diamonds like this. :doh:If they wouldn’t get it recert’d, I would personally shop elsewhere. YMMV
Presumably you'll also have a receipt from BlueNile stating that it was an Astor diamond, and BlueNile is not exactly small or obscure, so that should help make the argument that it's not a "run of the mill XXX."

That said, I totally agree that as a consumer it's well within your rights to return the diamond if you're not comfortable with the fact that the GIA listed inscription doesn't match the actual inscription. And it sounds like there are other choices where the ASTOR inscription is actually listed on the GIA certificate.

I sometimes see diamonds on JamesAllen and other places with certificates from almost a decade ago. Are they valid? Well, the GIA doesn't say "this certificate will expire in n years" so technically yes, but who knows what may have happened in the intervening years. I probably wouldn't buy a diamond with such an old certificate unless it was truly special, but the fact that those diamonds are listed on the platform means that someone is buying them. So ultimately there is a bit of trust involved, that the platform you're purchasing from has or will properly inspect the diamond before shipping it to you, that they don't damage it somewhere in the supply chain, etc. But if you want to be extra sure, then have it sent to appraiser to really get it checked over.
 

Rockdiamond

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As I said- if I was the buyer. I wrote, as we all do- from my perspective.
That means I would be buying to re-sell. From that perspective, it would really make sense to make sure the report details the brand.
If a company is trustworthy (not an issue here at all) and lets you know they inscribed after the GIA report, I'd accept that the stone is what they say it is.

Maybe asking GIA will be a good idea?
Absolutely. I believe you can re-submit for approx half the cost of a new report.
 

the_mother_thing

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Presumably you'll also have a receipt from BlueNile stating that it was an Astor diamond, and BlueNile is not exactly small or obscure, so that should help make the argument that it's not a "run of the mill XXX."

That said, I totally agree that as a consumer it's well within your rights to return the diamond if you're not comfortable with the fact that the GIA listed inscription doesn't match the actual inscription. And it sounds like there are other choices where the ASTOR inscription is actually listed on the GIA certificate.

I sometimes see diamonds on JamesAllen and other places with certificates from almost a decade ago. Are they valid? Well, the GIA doesn't say "this certificate will expire in n years" so technically yes, but who knows what may have happened in the intervening years. I probably wouldn't buy a diamond with such an old certificate unless it was truly special, but the fact that those diamonds are listed on the platform means that someone is buying them. So ultimately there is a bit of trust involved, that the platform you're purchasing from has or will properly inspect the diamond before shipping it to you, that they don't damage it somewhere in the supply chain, etc. But if you want to be extra sure, then have it sent to appraiser to really get it checked over.
For me, this comes down to two areas that raise a flag in my mind: transparency to buyers and consistency between what is advertised/being purchased. Others may disagree, and that’s fine; Others’ money is not my money.

Personally, I wouldn’t even buy the diamond in the first place (much less worry about returning it) because I wouldn’t really know what I am getting without having to incur additional expense by having a good, independent appraiser assess it. Now I’m ‘out’ another $100+, for something that should be documented as advertised. Maybe it depends on the specs & price of the diamond in question, whether the ‘risk’ is low or high and worth worrying about. But that some diamonds have logo/branding inscriptions noted on the report and not others makes it even more strange, questionable and inconsistent to me, and I can’t help but wonder, “what else is inconsistent?” If they aren’t going to get a lab report for all diamonds they choose to brand after they are inscribed, they shouldn’t do it on any of them, JMHO. THAT is what makes it shady/strange to me, and raises questions.

Secondly, yes, there’s a receipt, and that receipt probably notes a GIA report ...and that GIA report is not consistent with other ‘branded’ diamonds from that vendor and does not accurately describe the diamond on the receipt that I purchased; and I couldn’t cry when an adjuster can also see other ‘branded’ diamonds do have the logo noted on the report and denies me the ‘like kind’ replacement. Just seems like a messy, potentially risky gamble to take unnecessarily when - before purchasing - you can simply have that vendor get the diamond recertified so the lab report accurately describes the diamond, if nothing else as a demonstration of transparency to buyers. I wouldn’t be surprised if an insurance adjuster argued the receipt noting a brand was an error because it’s not noted on the lab report and there is no proof of ‘branding’ to warrant the higher-than-average-GIA-XXX price they’d be expected to shell out in cash or for replacement. When we’re talking about the non-SI vendors, there’s even less information about what actually qualifies that diamond for the fancy name they put on it. At least the HPDs, WFs, BGDs offer additional light performance images and testing that validate a diamond exceeds “standards”. The JAs and BNs - while they offer beautiful diamonds at great prices - are not transparent about that information, what qualifies a diamond for their ‘branding’, consistently offer evidence of that branding, etc.

Lastly, I don’t see the presence of a logo inscription applied after a diamond is assessed & lab report issued the same as a diamond that only has an ‘older’ lab report and no ‘brand’ inscription. The latter can be assessed by a gemologist to ensure the diamond is the same as the report notes; the former is clearly - without a doubt - not the same as the lab report denotes, at least in terms of ‘condition’.

And @HDer I apologize if you read this as me being argumentative; that’s truly not my intention. I’ve just read enough examples on here and other places where - especially when it comes to insurance - unless you are savvy enough to have smartly, fully and completely dotted all your ‘I’s and crossed all your ‘T’s in every way reasonable, a person is likely to get less than they expect they’ve been paying for in the event of a loss. So it just doesn’t make sense to me that someone (if we’re talking about more than a few hundred dollars here), would waste time taking such an unnecessary risk when they don’t have to ... there are TONS of diamonds available to choose from. Why settle on shady? :confused:
 

mvoila

Rough_Rock
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Presumably you'll also have a receipt from BlueNile stating that it was an Astor diamond, and BlueNile is not exactly small or obscure, so that should help make the argument that it's not a "run of the mill XXX."...
As I said- if I was the buyer. I wrote, as we all do- from my perspective.
That means I would be buying to re-sell. From that perspective, it would really make sense to make sure the report details the brand.
If a company is trustworthy (not an issue here at all) and lets you know they inscribed after the GIA report, I'd accept that the stone is what they say it is.


Absolutely. I believe you can re-submit for approx half the cost of a new report.
For me, this comes down to two areas that raise a flag in my mind: transparency to buyers and consistency between what is ...
To have a fast answer, i called the seller to know if they received my email (i didn't receive an acknowledgment of receipt nor an automatic answer). So here is what they said :
- We have received your email
- We acknowledge that the situation is a little weird or at least needs investigation
- They contact the headquarters in United States of America (the call center is in Dublin, Ireland) to have an official answer.
- They begin to explain that the situation was caused by GIA Policy change about branding authorization. It seems that for some time GIA engraved and reported themselves additional branding based on "quality criterias above" Excellent Cut grade. After that, they stopped to do it and now they agree to do it only for some diamonds. (I suppose that the seller continues to engrave his branding himself if GIA doesn't want to do it).
- Answer will arrive at Sunday. If the diamond has to be recerted the delay will be 4 to 6 weeks with a return. From my point of view this will be the desired solution but it will be tight with my proposal planned date.

The support seems to be a little unconfortable with the situation (i understand why).
I believe that we dive in contract issues between GIA and the seller (but this is not a problem for me) and commercial purposes about branded diamonds (and extra price for it). Ugly is the consummer faced with inconsistencies without explanation. I had to inspect the diamond myself to have the information. Maybe (pure assomption here) the seller doesn't want to disclose information because it can impact their brand reputation or quality image.

My comprehension (but it is pure assomption here too) gives me four scenarios :
- GIA doesn't change at all their policies but maybe this seller changes his quality policy for "ideal cut" branding and make it less stringent. So GIA disagree to apply this new Policy because it is unfair for consumer whom have already bought branded diamonds. So only diamonds with branding mention in certificate are stringent on cut grade others are more seller commercial policy based (No information on policy change for the customer)
- GIA ask more money to deliver the service and the seller doesn't want to pay for it for all of their branded diamonds, so some are well certed others not : there is a sub product line in branded diamonds (no information for the customer).
- GIA really change their policy (but why and only for some diamonds...)
- It is a simple mistake from the seller (forgot to issue a new certificate for the diamond)

So, all of this is a little confused. Best seems to be waiting for final answer and see what's going on.
I will update as soon as the answer arrives.
Maybe i will contact GIA too.
Thank you for your contribution.
 
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Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
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Sorry I am late to the game.
The labs are not the only ones offering laser marking services and the machine to do it is available $$$$$$.
https://www.directindustry.com/prod/ogi-systems-ltd/product-163786-1717901.html
I would as a consumer want anything that is on the diamond on the report and would feel that the report was in some ways invalid because it does not reflect the state of the diamond at purchase.
 

sledge

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Besides the brand label on the lab report WF and CBI used to have its logo inscribed on the girdle too. AFAIK BGD still does inscribe their logo on the girdle today. IDK if HoF does or not these days.
My wife's BGD Blue has the logo inscribed on the girdle. That was a 2018 purchase.
 

Texas Leaguer

Ideal_Rock
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This is an important topic. A few points that might shed additional light:

First, I agree with those who say that an inscription on a diamond that is not mentioned on a lab report is technically a mismatch and should therefore be of concern to any consumer. There are benign explanations for how it might have come about, but that needs to be disclosed to the buyer and discussed upfront. Not everyone will be comfortable with anything less than a precise match between the lab certificate and the diamond being purchased. Merchants failing to disclose such issues are either intentionally withholding a pertinent piece of information from the consumer, or their quality control system does not include a thorough gemological review.

Our proprietary branded AGS reports (A CUT ABOVE® and A CUT ABOVE® Collection Series) conclusively tie the diamond, lab report, and brand attributes together. The diamond is inscribed with the unique certificate number as referenced on the report. This is useful to the consumer for insurance purposes and is a part of the added value for our brand.

AGS will only inscribe a logo or render a propriety report if the merchant can show legal ownership of those trademarks.

Before proprietary reports were available we used to inscribe our logo on the diamond. As our business grew and volume increased, it became logistically problematic to inscribe the logo. Our main production goes straight from our cutters to the lab. Those diamonds meeting our baseline criteria are then shipped to Whiteflash for further gemological review and light performance imaging. Diamonds that FAIL our review would then have to go back on the wheel to remove the logo and back to the lab to update the report. This expensive process was not efficient or scalable. When AGS began offering the proprietary cert, it was a solution that we quickly adopted and has made processing our increasing volume of diamonds much more efficient. Now when a diamond fails our internal review for the brand, we can simply downgrade it to Expert Selection and order a new re-print of a non-branded report.

The proprietary cert referencing the cert number inscribed on the diamond provides the consumer with all the info that is actionable for them, and keeps costs down on the diamond and reduces excess handling for Whiteflash.
 

Todd Gray

Brilliant_Rock
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This is an interesting conversation on a topic which has bothered me for quite some time. On the one hand, certain vendors expect their customers to pay a premium for a branded diamond which is accompanied by a diamond grading report that reflects the brand name.

On the other hand, the vendors no longer seem willing to make the commitment to buy the diamonds themselves for inventory and/or commit the diamonds to one specific portion of their inventory.

To be clear, for the sake of this discussion, my trade designation reflects my status in the trade as a diamond buyer with 30+ years of experience. However, I no longer sell diamonds directly, so my commentary and views reflect my personal feelings on the matter and are not brand specific.

If I step out of my role as a diamond buyer and enter the role of a consumer, then when I make the decision to buy something, I have to admit that brand name and reputation factor into the equation. To be perfectly honest, I'm not likely to buy something of significance that isn't backed by a major brand.

At the same time, I expect to see the brand name on the product and I'm not likely to pay a premium for something which is generic beyond the packaging. If I set out to buy a new car, I expect to see the logo of the manufacturer on the vehicle. At the same time, the manufacturer places its logo on the vehicle to promote the brand and identify it as a product which they are proud to sell.

From the perspective of an industry insider, I happen to know that one of the reasons why companies don't want to brand their diamonds at this point in time, is because they either don't own the inventory (it's on long term memo) and/or they don't want to commit the inventory to only one brand because they want to increase the odds of it selling by marketing it via multiple channels.

Which is fine, there is nothing wrong with not inscribing your diamonds and/or not stamping a logo on everything that you sell (speaking in terms of generic brand reference) but let's be honest about the reasons behind it and not blow smoke in the face of our clients in hopes of distracting them from the truth.

Obviously, I believe that companies which stand behind their brand should inscribe the brand logo on the girdle edge of their diamonds along with the diamond grading report number. The last time I checked the cost of doing so was minimal if it was done at the time the diamond is submitted for grading. Which shouldn't be an issue if the company is verifying that the diamonds meet their selection criteria prior to submitting them to the lab which also seems like the correct approach to me.
 

sledge

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As a consumer, I think you raise an interesting point @Todd Gray.

As I mentioned earlier, my wife's BGD stone not only has the AGS number but the actual BGD Blue logo inscribed on the girdle. It also has this same logo on the AGS certificate.

Capture99.PNG

Capture98.PNG

When I initially purchased, I don't think it was much of a concern to be truthful.

However, after having the stone shipped across the country to multiple destinations before it arrived to me, I felt obligated to ensure no mishaps occurred and checked the stone to ensure what I purchased was mounted and that no additional damage had occurred.

The easiest way is to look at the inscription. In my case, the position of one of of the prongs was blocking a portion of the number. This is very frustrating as no one realizes how small those inscriptions are until you are trying to verify and have a prong in your way. What was clearly evident was the BGD Blue logo and about half the AGS number. Technically I guess I could have gotten a different diamond, but between the matching I was able to verify and comparing the inclusions to the clarity plot I felt reasonably certain I got what was ordered.

I know getting a logo on the girdle may be picky, but in my case it was a nice perk and added some reassurance. Technically with just a number and review of the clarity plot, you could connect a stone back to the cert, which if it had the logos would also confirm the brand.
 

Wink

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Every diamond we sell is delivered with Crafted by Infinity’s logo on the grading report. As soon as it’s delivered we encourage our clients to register a copy with a reputable jewelry insurance company. That logo ensures replacement with another Crafted by Infinity in the awful case of theft or loss.

That logo is not included on the diamond girdle. Yes, the AGS number is, but not the logo. There is a security reason for that. Time has shown that bad actors might consider having a diamond-polisher remove laser-inscriptions before fencing stolen or found diamonds. It’s a hassle to do this. But the chances rise from maybe to a near-certainty if they see a brand logo on the diamond.

If the report number remains there’s a chance a pawn-shop going by the due-diligence book will contact the lab while holding the diamond. AGS is a small operation and can contact Crafted by Infinity (as submitter) who can contact the selling dealer, who can contact the customer. This has happened at least twice that I’ve been told about. Crafted by Infinity was alerted when a diamond they produced was offered for third-hand sale in situations which did not seem kosher.

I pray none of you ever lose your precious items. But I would remind clients that your grading report is the most important piece of information to have in the awful case of loss. And a brand logo on that report will serve as unarguable proof to the insurer of the diamond’s pedigree.

Wink
 
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