WHY do people want whiter diamonds?

[Dreamer_D]

From a scientific point of view, i think color does affect performance, however little. Let's use an extreme example. Even if a BLACK or DEEP BLUE round diamond was cut to ideal proportions. Put it beside a d colored diamond and I am sure you will see a massive difference.

That's an entirely different subject, IMO. On the D-Z scale, I believe that the difference in light performance would be imperceptible to the human eye. Black diamonds have a different carbon structure and absorb light instead of reflecting/refracting it.

I think I would have to disagree. Technically any visible colour means some wavelengths (and therefore some incident energy) is being absorbed - the longer the light path through the stone the more energy is absorbed, and the lower-energy the final output... texbooks aside though, I know that when comparing my well-cut J RB to a high-colour stone of similar size and proportions my J looked "dimmer" and "softer" - visibly less bright, and the higher colour also looked bigger thanks to looking brighter... That's only when the stones were loose side by side though - once set, or by itself, my J looks plenty big and bright and white to me!

Subjectively, this is my experience as well. Tinted stones produce a softer shade of "white" light. But I am not sure that can be labelled as "worse performance", do you? And perceiving color seems distinct from perceiving less "light return" in a practical sense, too.

Then again, I think scintillation and contrast patterning are so much more important for beauty that brightness, so there is my bias.

chappy diamond color in 2mm stones won't matter much.

 

[yssie]

From a scientific point of view, i think color does affect performance, however little. Let's use an extreme example. Even if a BLACK or DEEP BLUE round diamond was cut to ideal proportions. Put it beside a d colored diamond and I am sure you will see a massive difference.

That's an entirely different subject, IMO. On the D-Z scale, I believe that the difference in light performance would be imperceptible to the human eye. Black diamonds have a different carbon structure and absorb light instead of reflecting/refracting it.

I think I would have to disagree. Technically any visible colour means some wavelengths (and therefore some incident energy) is being absorbed - the longer the light path through the stone the more energy is absorbed, and the lower-energy the final output... texbooks aside though, I know that when comparing my well-cut J RB to a high-colour stone of similar size and proportions my J looked "dimmer" and "softer" - visibly less bright, and the higher colour also looked bigger thanks to looking brighter... That's only when the stones were loose side by side though - once set, or by itself, my J looks plenty big and bright and white to me!

Subjectively, this is my experience as well. Tinted stones produce a softer shade of "white" light. But I am not sure that can be labelled as "worse performance", do you? And perceiving color seems distinct from perceiving less "light return" in a practical sense, too.

Then again, I think scintillation and contrast patterning are so much more important for beauty that brightness, so there is my bias.

chappy diamond color in 2mm stones won't matter much.

Technically it really is "worse performance" but... that's a harsh label for something that is of little visual consequence except perhaps in very specific scenarios, and even then remains of negligible practical consequence. Well, IMO, and perhaps yours as well. I most certainly don't believe that the masses want whiter diamonds because they've had these discussions and have decided they perceive brighter and whiter as bigger

I think the bolded is the heart of it. And I think part of it is terminology, too - I might use "dim" and "tinted" synonymously to describe "less bright" but those descriptors aren't truly representative of what I'm seeing, and someone else might define them quite differently...

 

[Tourmaline]

This is an interesting topic. I've never minded lower colors, and I haven't been attracted to D-E-F, but I never gave it much thought, other than being relieved that I liked colors that were less expensive (because my eyes wouldn't allow me to go below VS1 clarity). In reading this discussion, though, I was reminded of when we had new LED lightbulbs put in the lights in our (very high) ceiling. We did it so that we wouldn't have to change the bulbs as often (because LEDs are supposed to last much longer, and it requires hiring someone with a very tall ladder to change the bulbs), but when I turned them on that night, I positively *HATED* the coldness of the color -- so much so that I didn't use any of the lights until we could have the man come back to change them to warmer LED bulbs. So it makes perfect sense that I love my L color diamond.

 

[Smith1942]

My sweet spot is F because it's white without looking fake. Color lower than H I have seen is too dark for me , however I have never seen an ideal cut of that color. Maybe some people perceive high color as perfect or more expensive ( not me), therefore more desireable .

Hey, Aprilbaby!

In a discussion about colour a few months ago, a few other posters also seemed to equate D colours with looking fake, or like CZ. This amazed me, because I had never heard of really high-coloured diamonds described that way, or heard of this as a concern in high colours.

I have three Ds and an E. They are all super-ideal cut, one is triple AGS 0, the others are GIA but have great numbers, HCA score etc. So anyway, amazing cuts all round.

Due to the wonderful cuts, the diamonds all chuck out a ton of fire and the entire colour range. The sparkle is also amazing. I went into Tiffany recently and an SA had her eyes out on stalks at my D AGS triple 0 pendant. The scintillation, fire and sparkle of all four are amazing, which is why they look like what they are - the real thing.

Since we know that super-ideal cut diamonds chuck out a ton of sparkle and fire, I can't understand how a diamond with that kind of top-notch cut can look fake just because it's a D colour? You're not the only one that's said this, but I don't understand. My top-cut icy diamonds do not look flat white and fake due to all the coloured light and sparkle.

I guess a really poorly-cut D would look bad - but it wouldn't look CZ-white, it would look darker due to light leakage.

Anyway, my D triple 0 pendant is only a 0.52, but due to its bright iciness and the coloured fire/sparkle, it's actually a little much for everyday. The bezel also makes it look bigger!

 

[Smith1942]

To answer the OP, I prefer icy colours - D or E.

I have quite strong opinions on diamond colour in terms of what I like and don't like, because I wear a colour I didn't choose, every day. My enagagement ring is a fab cut - Hearts on Fire - but it's an I colour. It was a gift long ago, I had no input, there's no trade-in programme and my husband doesn't believe in upgrades or buying any kind of jewellery, so I'm quite stuck with it. Actually, I really like the stone for its wonderful cut. It's very fiery indeed, and it has a lot of sentimental value.

However, to critique the stone purely on its colour: Despite the optimal cut, it can look dark. In daylight, it faces up very white....but it isn't white. Once you take it out of daylight, it starts to look darker. When I hold my D diamonds next to it, it looks distinctly lemon.

Many posters talk about warmth, which sounds lovely. If the stone was warm but light, I'd like it. However, in my experience with my engagement ring, the tint does not only bring warmth, it brings darkness. The stone is actually darker than my well-cut Ds, not just warmer.

To be honest though, my stone always looked perfectly white to me until I started buying diamonds (it started about four years ago when I decided to get a pair of studs from Blue Nile). After I got educated and bought higher-coloured diamonds and started comparing, I could really see the difference. But before, when I knew nothing about diamonds, it looked fine.

But there's no going back. Once you know and see the difference, you can't un-see it, at least I couldn't. What happened next is that I got my sticky paws on a nice fat AGS triple 0 D-colour diamond, and that was it. Lurve. I had no idea a diamond could look so cold, so icy, so yummy. Like an Arctic lake.

I have since bought I diamonds in finished jewellery pieces, as melee. They look fine. I just wouldn't choose a larger diamond in that colour. I think I'd rather have a smaller diamond to get an icier colour.

I really notice the difference between my D/E colours and my engagement ring in dimmer environments, like in restaurants. When a given restaurant has had mirrors, I have looked at my reflection from about four feet away, and held up my hand to compare. The D studs and pendant remained quite visible as pinpricks of white ice in the dimness, whereas the darker I colour ring pretty much disappeared. That, for me, sums up the difference - and the value - between the icier colours and warmer ones.

Having said that, I am waiting for the arrival of a G pendant from BGD. I am sure it will be quite white enough - it was the right price and time for the purchase, and I am very happy with a G for this piece. I wouldn't have bought an I, though. Just my preference.

 

[heididdl]

I am in the G-H camp.

I am in the g-h camp also but if I had the money I'd be in the DEF camp I like white but I also like fancy yellow and pink. in My opinion unless the stone is really warm MNO the stone looks dull in color to me just my preference

 

[WhoaNelly]

This is a fascinating discussion and I'm enjoying following it, particularly the physics part regarding light return/absorption. I hadn't thought about that in terms of diamond color grading. I'm currently shopping for a diamond and PS has been an incredible source of knowledge and experience. Once that's applied though, it does come down to personal preference IMHO. Because of my biscuit colored skin tone, I've shied away from the DEF range: they seem, pardon the term, cold to me. That said, I'm not sure how low I would go It would depend on what the specs in the other categories are (clarity and cut). And, since I'm looking for an antique cushion, I'm keeping an open mind. Thanks everyone for opening yet another diamond paved avenue. And good luck Chappy---what you are creating sounds beautiful and I hope you post a pic when done.

 

[arkieb1]

I wonder if some of you are like me and have different thresholds for colour for different types of cuts. I'd agree I like a H or better in a modern RB, a high I is about my limit and I do see colour. But I didn't realise until this past year I love mid colours in Old Cuts. I also don't mind other colours in other types of cuts as well depends on what they are - Asschers, Emeralds, Cushions and so on. I saw a killer Asscher in a mid colour and thought it was O.K. I saw ice white OMCs I love and a mid coloured OMC that I also loved.

I think Dreamer hit the nail on the head - stones that have much more noticeable contrast patterns like Old Cuts look much more desirable in mid and lower colours than round modern brilliants do to most of us. So the cut of the stone and the type of scintillation pattern we see also plays a huge role in colour choice. I guess you could argue either the softer look (less white light return) compliments some cuts much better OR alternatively the big chunky bold reflections our eyes see compensate for any slight dullness that occurs due to colour. I suspect the answer is both.

 

[dk168]

To me, it is a preference.

I am happy with G/H, and most of my diamond jewellery are in that camp. However, I splashed out and plunged for an E coloured EC as a 40th birthday present to myself back in 2004.

Still happy to buy G/H as I believe they are good value for money when the other 3 Cs are equal.

Can I tell the difference between an E and a G/H? Before I got my E coloured EC, no; however, I can now!

DK

 

[Sidius]

I agree with what others have posted, this is a fascinating topic and I'm enjoying reading all the responses..

I'm curious of others opinion on something in line with this topic.. There are two stones I've been keeping an eye on. I can't afford either yet so I'm not about to buy anything but for the sake of the topic and my curiosity... they're both ACA stones and 1.522ct. One stone is an I/VS2 and the other is a H/SI1. They both have a HCA score of 1.8. The I/VS2 is actually about $750 cheaper than the H/SI1. Is one colour grade up with one clarity grade down, worth the extra $750? The I/VS2 seems like a better deal to me, but I'm no expert. I've never even purchased a diamond yet, I've only been lurking and learning for the last 6 months.

 

[arkieb1]

I agree with what others have posted, this is a fascinating topic and I'm enjoying reading all the responses..

I'm curious of others opinion on something in line with this topic.. There are two stones I've been keeping an eye on. I can't afford either yet so I'm not about to buy anything but for the sake of the topic and my curiosity... they're both ACA stones and 1.522ct. One stone is an I/VS2 and the other is a H/SI1. They both have a HCA score of 1.8. The I/VS2 is actually about $750 cheaper than the H/SI1. Is one colour grade up with one clarity grade down, worth the extra $750? The I/VS2 seems like a better deal to me, but I'm no expert. I've never even purchased a diamond yet, I've only been lurking and learning for the last 6 months.

You probably need to go to a store and look at a heap of H and I coloured stones. Look at them on their own, then look at them next to each other. Colour choice is a very subjective thing. Only your eyes can say if the extra $750.00 is worth it.

 

[dk168]

I agree with what others have posted, this is a fascinating topic and I'm enjoying reading all the responses..

I'm curious of others opinion on something in line with this topic.. There are two stones I've been keeping an eye on. I can't afford either yet so I'm not about to buy anything but for the sake of the topic and my curiosity... they're both ACA stones and 1.522ct. One stone is an I/VS2 and the other is a H/SI1. They both have a HCA score of 1.8. The I/VS2 is actually about $750 cheaper than the H/SI1. Is one colour grade up with one clarity grade down, worth the extra $750? The I/VS2 seems like a better deal to me, but I'm no expert. I've never even purchased a diamond yet, I've only been lurking and learning for the last 6 months.

Hmmmm, interesting.

Not sure if I am able to tell the colour difference of just one grade.

Therefore, I too believe the I/VS2 is a better buy compared with the H/SI1 if the remaining 2 Cs are equal.

DK

 

[WhoaNelly]

I wonder if some of you are like me and have different thresholds for colour for different types of cuts. I'd agree I like a H or better in a modern RB, a high I is about my limit and I do see colour. But I didn't realise until this past year I love mid colours in Old Cuts. I also don't mind other colours in other types of cuts as well depends on what they are - Asschers, Emeralds, Cushions and so on. I saw a killer Asscher in a mid colour and thought it was O.K. I saw ice white OMCs I love and a mid coloured OMC that I also loved.

I think Dreamer hit the nail on the head - stones that have much more noticeable contrast patterns like Old Cuts look much more desirable in mid and lower colours than round modern brilliants do to most of us. So the cut of the stone and the type of scintillation pattern we see also plays a huge role in colour choice. I guess you could argue either the softer look (less white light return) compliments some cuts much better OR alternatively the big chunky bold reflections our eyes see compensate for any slight dullness that occurs due to colour. I suspect the answer is both.

I love the way you put this---I do think you are spot on that cut plays a role. Emerald cuts in higher colors do look more 'appropriate' to my eye.

As a newbie: where can one go to see lower color ranges in person, especially for antique stones? I get a 'sense' of them online but up close and personal would be great. From the few B&Ms I've visited in my area, they rarely stock lower colors (below L), much less antique stones. I'd love to better educate my eyes. If this needs to be a separate topic, give me a heads up and I will start it.

 

[arkieb1]

Where do you live? People in your area might be able to give you suggestions. Otherwise you need to see if you can find Antique jewellery shops near you that have stones in a range of colours.

 

[WhoaNelly]

I'm in the Denver area. The suggestion of antique jewelry stores is great---will hop on that train right away Thank you!

 

[chappy]

wow! really appreciate the in-depth discussions, a lot of information to take in. the basic gist I'm gleaning here is that it won't matter since the diamonds are only 2mm! and that warmer diamonds look nicer in old cuts (no idea where to source 2mm-sized old cut warm diamonds anyhow, haha).

this is the wax of the ring I'll be making (no idea what placeholder stone is):



and here's a colored mock-up via photoshop:


it would be a 6.5mm pink OEC with four 2mm RB sides.
I'm worried the small diamonds will be too "loud" on a RG + pink ring. I've always wanted a cartier ballerine in pink, but now I'm wondering maybe they chose platinum-only so the side diamonds blend in better! oh well, I'll find out when it's done, already gave the go-ahead yesterday.

thanks again for all the help!

 

[Laila619]

If I had unlimited amounts of money, I still probably would not go for a D, E, or F. My frugal side just wouldn't let me. G might be really nice though. I've never owned a G. I can see tint in a J, but it just doesn't bother me at all. Sparkly is sparkly!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Here is a related question: Does diamond tint interact with cut to predict the level of contrast patterning that we see? In other words, will a more tinted diamonds display more contrast patterning -- holding cut constant -- than a less tinted stone? Does less brightness make it easier to perceive contrast patterning?

ETA: by contrast patterning, I mean the patterns of lights and darks that scintillates and plays accross a diamond's face as it is moved. My avatar shows contrast patterning clearly, in static mode.

 

[AprilBaby]

My sweet spot is F because it's white without looking fake. Color lower than H I have seen is too dark for me , however I have never seen an ideal cut of that color. Maybe some people perceive high color as perfect or more expensive ( not me), therefore more desireable .

Hey, Aprilbaby!

In a discussion about colour a few months ago, a few other posters also seemed to equate D colours with looking fake, or like CZ. This amazed me, because I had never heard of really high-coloured diamonds described that way, or heard of this as a concern in high colours.

I have three Ds and an E. They are all super-ideal cut, one is triple AGS 0, the others are GIA but have great numbers, HCA score etc. So anyway, amazing cuts all round.

Due to the wonderful cuts, the diamonds all chuck out a ton of fire and the entire colour range. The sparkle is also amazing. I went into Tiffany recently and an SA had her eyes out on stalks at my D AGS triple 0 pendant. The scintillation, fire and sparkle of all four are amazing, which is why they look like what they are - the real thing.

Since we know that super-ideal cut diamonds chuck out a ton of sparkle and fire, I can't understand how a diamond with that kind of top-notch cut can look fake just because it's a D colour? You're not the only one that's said this, but I don't understand. My top-cut icy diamonds do not look flat white and fake due to all the coloured light and sparkle.

I guess a really poorly-cut D would look bad - but it wouldn't look CZ-white, it would look darker due to light leakage.

Anyway, my D triple 0 pendant is only a 0.52, but due to its bright iciness and the coloured fire/sparkle, it's actually a little much for everyday. The bezel also makes it look bigger!

I believe people think it looks fake because few people IRL have ever seen a perfectly cut D/E diamond. Most would assume it's too good to be true!

 

[Karl_K]

Here is a related question: Does diamond tint interact with cut to predict the level of contrast patterning that we see? In other words, will a more tinted diamonds display more contrast patterning -- holding cut constant -- than a less tinted stone? Does less brightness make it easier to perceive contrast patterning?

ETA: by contrast patterning, I mean the patterns of lights and darks that scintillates and plays accross a diamond's face as it is moved. My avatar shows contrast patterning clearly, in static mode.

Yes and no less not more contrast.
Diamond color has an effect on contrast brightness but in my opinion colorless to near colorless in well cut stones the difference in very minor in an RB. stronger in a step cut but down to J still relatively minor if well cut.
Some cuts do a better job than others in returning light so you see the body color much less often.
Which is a trick I built into Octavia. It was to my knowledge the only design that took secondary and third order light sources into account in the design. Kenny describes it as always returning light.

 

[arkieb1]

Here is a related question: Does diamond tint interact with cut to predict the level of contrast patterning that we see? In other words, will a more tinted diamonds display more contrast patterning -- holding cut constant -- than a less tinted stone? Does less brightness make it easier to perceive contrast patterning?

ETA: by contrast patterning, I mean the patterns of lights and darks that scintillates and plays accross a diamond's face as it is moved. My avatar shows contrast patterning clearly, in static mode.

Yes and no less not more contrast.
Diamond color has an effect on contrast brightness but in my opinion colorless to near colorless in well cut stones the difference in very minor in an RB. stronger in a step cut but down to J still relatively minor if well cut.
Some cuts do a better job than others in returning light so you see the body color much less often.
Which is a trick I built into Octavia. It was to my knowledge the only design that took secondary and third order light sources into account in the design. Kenny describes it as always returning light.

So is that why something like an Octavia, a Solesfera and some well cut OECs which are all very different styles of cut hide or mask body colour better than RBs?

 

[Circe]

What a fascinating discussion! Yssie, Dreamer, Arkie, Karl - among many others! - so much food for thought.

Me, I've always gone for the darker-hued stones. When I got engaged, I had a choice between a D and a J ... and I went with the J, and never looked back. In "blind taste tests" since then, I've been pretty consistent in that regard: inevitably, my sweet spot is somewhere in the near-colorless to faint-yellow range ... I'd say J to N, not having seen too many lower than that that weren't sufficiently tinged so as to be distinct in their demonstration of their body color. (For that matter, so was the N, but since it was a 4 carat AVC, I most certainly did not mind.) I guess my preference is for off-white ... doesn't so much matter what the underlying tone is, so long as it's neither stark nor noticeably yellow or champagne.

I would, of course, be happy to make exceptions for other colors, from grey to blue to red to ...

 

[Karl_K]

So is that why something like an Octavia, a Solesfera and some well cut OECs which are all very different styles of cut hide or mask body colour better than RBs?

They can or they can show it more it all depends on cut and the specific design/specs.
The lab color is the a material grade not an optical grade, I am very very uncomfortable with a vendor saying "our j faces up like an i" or some such. It faces up like a j cut to your specs faces up nothing more nothing less.
That is why the primary PS vendors that were using it stopped using it.
In some lighting all diamonds will show body color, better cut ones and some designs just less often than others.
That has to be kept separate from the lab material grade.

 

[Karl_K]

There is also color entrapment where a diamond can appear a darker color than most with the same material grade. This gets bad at a pavilion angle of 41.4 in an RB with almost an crown it is a cliff and comes on quickly.
It is one of those cliffs where its a deep drop once you go off it.
Again the material grade does not change, it faces up like a j with color entrapment which may mimic a k or even l in some lighting its lab grade is still a j.

 

[arkieb1]

So is that why something like an Octavia, a Solesfera and some well cut OECs which are all very different styles of cut hide or mask body colour better than RBs?

They can or they can show it more it all depends on cut and the specific design/specs.
The lab color is the a material grade not an optical grade, I am very very uncomfortable with a vendor saying "our j faces up like an i" or some such. It faces up like a j cut to your specs faces up nothing more nothing less.
That is why the primary PS vendors that were using it stopped using it.
In some lighting all diamonds will show body color, better cut ones and some designs just less often than others.
That has to be kept separate from the lab material grade.

That is interesting because I have lost count of vendors who frequently say our J faces like an I or our L looks several colour grades higher, including some very well respected ones on here..... I have actually been disappointed by the colour of a stone I received once because I was told it was very white looking and to me it wasn't.

 

[Karl_K]

That is interesting because I have lost count of vendors who frequently say our J faces like an I or our L looks several colour grades higher, including some very well respected ones on here.....

If it was in the last couple of years and one of the major PS vendors, I would like to know who so I can yell at em.

 

[Karl_K]

I have actually been disappointed by the colour of a stone I received once because I was told it was very white looking and to me it wasn't.

What looks white to one person may not to another and the lighting and conditions of your viewing environment can make a large difference.
That's why it always comes down to the owner living with the diamond over an extended time in their own environment.

 

[arkieb1]

I really like both Erica & Grace so I don't want to be too critical of them but go to the loose diamonds they have listed and carefully read the descriptions. You will see the words very white facing written numerous times or faces higher than graded colour over and over again.....

Jon from GOG has been guilty of the same, & I saw a video with Wink talking about how white facing a Crafted by Infinity was and it didn't look that way to my eye, so it's more common than you think.

I think you should be able to contact me via my old loupetroop listing, if you want me to go into specifics, I don't want to trash these vendors because I like and respect all of them;

http://loupetroop.com/listings/rings-natural-diamond-center/price-slashed-1-dot-10-carat-oec-in-bezel-setting-for-sale-at-jbeg

 

[Karl_K]

I will look into it.
Saying wow this j faces up white isn't something I feel I can do much about because hey to some people it does.
However saying "our j faces up like an i" where the material grade is compared in a potentially misleading manner to make people think they are getting something they aren't is an issue.
Also to be fair I have not in the past discussed this with Erica & Grace.
I haven't paid a lot of attention to vendor websites lately, just barely having enough time to read PS most days.

 

[arkieb1]

I will look into it.
Saying wow this j faces up white isn't something I feel I can do much about because hey to some people it does.
However saying "our j faces up like an i" where the material grade is compared in a potentially misleading manner to make people think they are getting something they aren't is an issue.

I am not expecting you to do anything specifically. I don't want this to be a dob in the vendors either because I think all three that I mentioned unlike many less scrupulous ones out there are not intentionally trying to mislead their customers. You made the comment that you are uncomfortable with vendors saying our J faces up like and I or something to that effect and I am merely point out that this happens ALL the time including well respected vendors.

It is at least better than people marketing and promoting an EGL J as a J when they know full well that it is comparable to a GIA graded M.