shape
carat
color
clarity

Whose BEST diamond is really the BEST...

BlingBling87

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I have been looking at different online diamond websites...it seems that each has their own class of "ideal"...which is best or are all they relative?

James Allen - True Hearts
White Flash - ACA
GOG - Ideal
Leon Mege - XXX
Victor Canera - Ideal Hearts
Blue Nile - Signature

If i decided to go this route....whats the lowest color grade/clarity you would go?

Thank you!
 

D_

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GOG's is Ascendancy, I think.
They are all good (some may argue JA's & BN's may not be in the same class, but to each their own).
And you may need to look at it as the whole package, not just the quality of the diamonds (service, exchange/upgrade policy etc.)
Will throw you a couple more to make you even more confused :naughty: : High Performance Diamonds & Brian Gavin Diamonds.
 

AprilBaby

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Lowest color I, clarity si1. For me personally color H, clarity vs1
 

Niel

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High performance diamonds is what I'd get if I was looking for the tops.

I'd get as low as I could go with clarity as long as its eye clean, becuase after all, if I can't see it its "clear enough for me"

I wear ks. Others won't wear Gs

Go see some in person first. Try to look at ags graded as I've seen recently af least 2 stones come back a color grade higher than their Gia reports say after a trip to ags.

If you can only see Gia. You might consider finding the color that's right on the verge of too much for you, then going one higher in ags

When it comes to the best of the best it gets negligible. Of you found the perfect stone in your budget, I wouldn't hesitate to buy from any of these places.
 

gm89uk

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Sorry when you say a "grade higher" do you mean "H is higher than G" or "F is higher than G"?
 

Niel

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gm89uk|1443315121|3932260 said:
Sorry when you say a "grade higher" do you mean "H is higher than G" or "F is higher than G"?
D-Z is high-low.

So some people have seen a stone that, say, Gia graded a J, might come back an I from ags
 

marcy

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I agree with the suggestions you go see what color and clarity you like (asking for ASG0 or GIA XXX) then shop through the diamonds online to see which ones meet your desired specs. Have fun shopping.
 

egemnoel

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Crafted By Infinity. I agree with Niel. Then again if have not seen others and to be honest I don't need to.
 

cflutist

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egemnoel|1443378077|3932468 said:
Crafted By Infinity. I agree with Niel. Then again if have not seen others and to be honest I don't need to.

I also agree with Niel and egemnoel that CBI is the way to go.
If there is something specific that you want that is currently not in HPD's inventory, they will cut to order for you.
That is what I did and my diamond still amazes me everyday.
 

WinkHPD

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Niel|1443315209|3932261 said:
gm89uk|1443315121|3932260 said:
Sorry when you say a "grade higher" do you mean "H is higher than G" or "F is higher than G"?
D-Z is high-low.

So some people have seen a stone that, say, Gia graded a J, might come back an I from ags

John Pollard and Paul Slegers tell me that this is simply not correct. They see thousands of diamonds that are graded by each laboratory each year. They both tell me that AGS is now far more consistent with only one location than GIA is with its many locations.

Twice in years past, I had occasion to send a GIA graded diamond to AGS and both times the AGS was tighter on the grade than GIA. (Graded one grade lower than GIA) so my personal experience is opposite of yours. I believe that both stones were borderline and could have gone either way, so I do not feel it tells me anything at all about the relative grading of either lab. It only emphasizes that the color and clarity grading by the labs is subjective, not definitive, and that there will always be differences of opinion on borderline diamonds.

When I joined the trade it was not at all uncommon for borderline stones to be split graded, for example an H-I grade could be given. It was only during the investment craze of the late 70's that the trade pushed for and got only a single grade on reports.

As far as differences between labs, John Pollard addressed the issue in great detail in this thread: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/2-69ct-g-vvs2-worries-feather-natural-ags-color-clarity.203189/#p3698017']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/2-69ct-g-vvs2-worries-feather-natural-ags-color-clarity.203189/#p3698017[/URL]

Wink
 

pinkgem2522

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Niel|1443307932|3932205 said:
High performance diamonds is what I'd get if I was looking for the tops.

I'd get as low as I could go with clarity as long as its eye clean, becuase after all, if I can't see it its "clear enough for me"

I wear ks. Others won't wear Gs

Go see some in person first. Try to look at ags graded as I've seen recently af least 2 stones come back a color grade higher than their Gia reports say after a trip to ags.

If you can only see Gia. You might consider finding the color that's right on the verge of too much for you, then going one higher in ags

When it comes to the best of the best it gets negligible. Of you found the perfect stone in your budget, I wouldn't hesitate to buy from any of these places.
I agree 100%
 

ChristineRose

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Maybe someone can explain to me why color varies at all, at least when you take the sleazy fake labs out of the equation. Can't they just grade with a colorimeter? I know there are diamond colorimeters out there. I know the technique involves an extremely expensive master set of diamonds that are not the more affordable fake sets, but wouldn't you expect people to be pulling out the colorimeter anyhow? Can't the labs update their standards to use colorimeters?
 

diamondseeker2006

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Oh, and my color and clarity preference while balancing with cost is G-H color and VS1-VS2 clarity.
 

yssie

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ChristineRose|1443458766|3932793 said:
Maybe someone can explain to me why color varies at all, at least when you take the sleazy fake labs out of the equation. Can't they just grade with a colorimeter? I know there are diamond colorimeters out there. I know the technique involves an extremely expensive master set of diamonds that are not the more affordable fake sets, but wouldn't you expect people to be pulling out the colorimeter anyhow? Can't the labs update their standards to use colorimeters?

Because that's the way it's always been done, and in this industry that, to a disappointing degree, is good enough.

Of course there are any number of difficulties - standardising GIA grading docks over time and between locations (which is already contentious), standardising calibration of the colorimeters themselves, standardising output meaning... But fundamentally the difficulty, as DS notes, isn't availability of the technology - it's coaxing the authorities to
A) Acknowledge that this particular aspect of diamond grading is in need of reform, and
B) Prioritise said reform.


And now I'd probably best duck out before the tomatoes come flying... ::)
 

Texas Leaguer

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ChristineRose|1443458766|3932793 said:
Maybe someone can explain to me why color varies at all, at least when you take the sleazy fake labs out of the equation. Can't they just grade with a colorimeter? I know there are diamond colorimeters out there. I know the technique involves an extremely expensive master set of diamonds that are not the more affordable fake sets, but wouldn't you expect people to be pulling out the colorimeter anyhow? Can't the labs update their standards to use colorimeters?
Colorimeters are used in the lab grading process. But in the majority of cases the final call is made by a human grader or graders. With advances in technology, coupled with increasing volume, GIA has in fact started issuing colorimeter-only grades for a small subset of diamonds that are submitted. The challenge with colorimeters is that they can be "fooled" by certain common variables including, fluorescence, non-yellow hues, and fancy shapes. GIA has continued to develop their own proprietary colorimeters and we will probably see progressively more automated color grading in the future. But it is currently only a very select portion of the diamonds that have properties that they feel comfortable grading without human input. The human eye and brain of a trained grader is still the best method of making consistent judgments of very slight differences against carefully selected master stones.
 

yssie

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Texas Leaguer|1443469148|3932854 said:
ChristineRose|1443458766|3932793 said:
Maybe someone can explain to me why color varies at all, at least when you take the sleazy fake labs out of the equation. Can't they just grade with a colorimeter? I know there are diamond colorimeters out there. I know the technique involves an extremely expensive master set of diamonds that are not the more affordable fake sets, but wouldn't you expect people to be pulling out the colorimeter anyhow? Can't the labs update their standards to use colorimeters?
Colorimeters are used in the lab grading process. But in the majority of cases the final call is made by a human grader or graders. With advances in technology, coupled with increasing volume, GIA has in fact started issuing colorimeter-only grades for a small subset of diamonds that are submitted. The challenge with colorimeters is that they can be "fooled" by certain common variables including, fluorescence, non-yellow hues, and fancy shapes. GIA has continued to develop their own proprietary colorimeters and we will probably see progressively more automated color grading in the future. But it is currently only a very select portion of the diamonds that have properties that they feel comfortable grading without human input. The human eye and brain of a trained grader is still the best method of making consistent judgments of very slight differences against carefully selected master stones.

This is interesting! Is this subset composed of D-Z diamonds (yellow only)? And are the colorimeter-only grades final and public-facing (as in that's what gets printed on the report)?

Those challenges that you outline are IMO very real and very significant up-front difficulties - decisions regarding appropriate calibration and standardisation will have to be made, and lines drawn without the safety-net of the "human touch" that can override on edge-cases... but ultimately removing that fickle human touch is a *good* thing, and it's heartening to hear that well-reputed labs are moving in that direction.
 

Texas Leaguer

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Yssie|1443469838|3932859 said:
Texas Leaguer|1443469148|3932854 said:
ChristineRose|1443458766|3932793 said:
Maybe someone can explain to me why color varies at all, at least when you take the sleazy fake labs out of the equation. Can't they just grade with a colorimeter? I know there are diamond colorimeters out there. I know the technique involves an extremely expensive master set of diamonds that are not the more affordable fake sets, but wouldn't you expect people to be pulling out the colorimeter anyhow? Can't the labs update their standards to use colorimeters?
Colorimeters are used in the lab grading process. But in the majority of cases the final call is made by a human grader or graders. With advances in technology, coupled with increasing volume, GIA has in fact started issuing colorimeter-only grades for a small subset of diamonds that are submitted. The challenge with colorimeters is that they can be "fooled" by certain common variables including, fluorescence, non-yellow hues, and fancy shapes. GIA has continued to develop their own proprietary colorimeters and we will probably see progressively more automated color grading in the future. But it is currently only a very select portion of the diamonds that have properties that they feel comfortable grading without human input. The human eye and brain of a trained grader is still the best method of making consistent judgments of very slight differences against carefully selected master stones.

This is interesting! Is this subset composed of D-Z diamonds (yellow only)? And are the colorimeter-only grades final and public-facing (as in that's what gets printed on the report)?
Yes it is interesting. D-Z only, yellow body color only, non-fluoro, rounds, under 1 carat (dossier report). Grades are finalized and reports issued without human color grading. (Not necessarily all stones fitting that description are graded solely by machine). Of course the person running the colorimeter would represent a check against a highly flawed result. But that is not the same thing as a trained grader going through a systematic analysis with a set of masters.

I suspect that the purpose is as much in improving efficiency as it is in enhancing consistency. But they evidently feel that grading accuracy on this subset of stones is at least comparable to that achieved by human graders.
 

gr8leo87

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Can we not move towards a G+, G, G- model? That way there's much less ambiguity and much more transparent and accurate pricing?

I think Forevermark does it, no?
 

Texas Leaguer

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gr8leo87|1443471388|3932869 said:
Can we not move towards a G+, G, G- model? That way there's much less ambiguity and much more transparent and accurate pricing?

I think Forevermark does it, no?
As was mentioned earlier, there was a time when labs issued split grades, e.g G/H which would equate to your G-. However, that practice was discontinued. Though it sounds like a logical solution, further segmenting the grades only makes the grading call more difficult. If you have ever tried to grade a stone with a set of masters, you know how difficult it is just to determine with certainty whether a stone has more or less or the same body color as the master it is being compared against.
 

WinkHPD

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And the difference to the eye between a G+, G, G- is invisible to all but the most visually acute humans, especially from the top. (Diamond color is graded from the side, but we do not set them side up.)

Cutting has MUCH more influence over the appearance of the diamond than such minor variations of color.

Wink
 

Rockdiamond

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I think part of the discussion revolves around the fact that the GIA grading system was not designed in a world where consumers had as much say in the process as they do today. It's obvious a lot of educated consumers would prefer a more detailed cut analysis that we currently see.
It may also be possible the grading system was designed to take into account that human observation is an essential element of assessing beauty in diamonds.
That's part of what makes all the brands mentioned so special.
If it was just a bunch of numbers who needs Paul, Yoram and other incredibly talented inventive, and persnickety cutters that can produce a product good enough ( based on human observation, not numbers) people are willing to pay a premium for.

So to the original question-
Personally if I think it's more of a pinnacle than a peak- there's some amazing work being done by all the fine brands mentioned.
 

diamondseeker2006

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Best of the best of H&A or superideal cut stones at this moment in time, in my opinion, are Whiteflash, Good Old Gold, HPD/Infinity, and Victor Canera. Aside from acquiring top cut quality diamonds for their collections, these vendors provide the proof by giving magnified images of the stones as well as ASET, Idealscope, and hearts images. Each diamond must be evaluated individually since each one is unique. You obviously can find excellent/ideal cut round brilliant stones though other vendors, but I generally do not recommend buying without ASET or idealscope images.

My personal experience over the last 9+ years involves owning 8 ACA diamonds from Whiteflash (this includes gifts and upgrades), and I have had two ideal cut or H&A diamonds and one AVR from Good Old Gold. I wouldn't have been a repeat customer if I thought they were not the best or equal to the best. But I also wouldn't hesitate to buy from Wink or Victor if they had what I needed at the time at the right price. That is the great thing for a buyer. If you know what your basic specs and budget are, you can safely shop these four vendors to see which ones have a diamond that meets your parameters and then go for the best price and/or the one who carries the setting you want. They are all really great jewelers with outstanding diamonds, and those who say that one carries diamonds that are superior to all the others across the board need to provide the proof. Just because Hearts on Fire uses the slogan "The World's Most Perfectly Cut Diamond" in their advertising doesn't make it so!!!

(Oh, and while I am happy to buy AGS stones, I do have the vendor check color to make sure it is not at the low end of a color grade. I have had two GIA diamonds that I sent to AGS for grading and both times I was told the color was high H, and AGS graded both stones G and I have seen it happen many times here on the forum. I like AGS for the cut grading as they are stricter on cut than GIA. You will find that most superideal cut stones are AGS graded, but not necessarily all.)
 

egemnoel

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DS,

Did PS Admin delete your previous post about the SAME cutters? I think it is important this information is known to potential diamond buyers. Thank you for sharing BTW.

Again another reason why Crafted By Infinity is the best! They are the ONLY cutters cutting every single diamond that Crafted By Infinity sells to the public. They are in complete control of the quality of their product!
 

diamondseeker2006

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egemnoel|1443522345|3933076 said:
DS,

Did PS Admin delete your previous post about the SAME cutters? I think it is important this information is known to potential diamond buyers. Thank you for sharing BTW.

Again another reason why Crafted By Infinity is the best! They are the ONLY cutters cutting every single diamond that Crafted By Infinity sells to the public. They are in complete control of the quality of their product!

I asked for it to be deleted, actually. But now that you have repeated what I said, I will just explain that I suppose I thought it was common knowledge that there are limited H&A cutting factories and vendors may be ordering some stones from the same sources just as regular diamonds are available from suppliers to many jewelers as we easily see on the PS diamond search tool. I doubt many vendors only carry diamonds from one source because not all customers are willing to pay the premium for true H&A anyway. Even if you bought from Wink, I can just about guarantee that if you visit his jewelry store, he has other diamonds besides CBI.

I will say that I disagree with you again on your last comment, because each jeweler can pick from the best from multiple top cutting sources for their inventories. They are in complete control over which diamonds meet their quality standards. Whiteflash, as one example, chooses the very top cut diamonds for their ACA line and puts the ideal cut near misses in their Expert selection line. I can see the quality of CBI, WF, VC, and GOG by looking at each stone's ASET and hearts images. I've been around here for almost 10 years and I have seen a LOT of top quality diamonds of my own and of my friends and have looked at the images of literally thousands as I have helped people search for diamonds. I am sincerely glad you are happy with your diamond and I think Infinity diamonds are wonderful! But there are plenty of others that are just as nice as yours!
 

Rockdiamond

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I agree DS.
it's one thing for a consumer to claim their stone is the "best"
But sellers that claim their stones have the best light performance - or other similar claims - are basically using a sales line hoping it gets read ( and maybe repeated) as a scientific statement.
 

Dancing Fire

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It would be interesting to see all the PS vendor's top ideal H&A cuts in one tray on a video under different lightings.
 

ChristineRose

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I think it's worth noting that all the cutters are using computers and lasers to visualize and cut, and that the art of diamond cutting is old, the standard RB is long in the public domain, and all the basics are well-documented. In other words, if one of these super-premium vendors thought another vendor was doing something better, they'd copy it. Therefore I conclude that all these perfectionist vendors are cutting what they feel to be the most perfect diamond for their premium lines. Any differences are likely to be small and probably a matter of taste.

I guess I can imagine a vendor who can only make x perfect diamonds a year letting a few less than perfect ones into their premium line, but (mostly--not counting the BNs and the JAs and the HoFs) the vendors mentioned have so many ranks of good, really good, incredibly good, incredibly incredible, etc., that I think it is a non-issue. Vendors also seem to have different thoughts about the low colors and clarities, but so do buyers.

The patented cuts are something else again, but I doubt if there's a consensus there.
 

egemnoel

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Hi DS,

Thanks again for educating me further, but I have to disagree with a few of your points. So the other vendors, are they involved from the very beginning of sourcing the rough and able to control the entire process from the beginning to the end? You say each jeweler can pick the best from multiple top cutting sources. But is this the end product they are selecting, i.e. the diamond has already been cut and polished.

Diamonds are like fine dining in a Michelin star restaurant. Everyone tastes will be different and you can pay different prices. But top restaurants will always be in control from the start in selecting the finest ingredients to begin with and ensure each step of preparing the meal is of the highest standard.

Take a golfer his end result is to get the ball in the hole - so what he needs to do is perfect each stage before and after hitting the ball.

So being in control from the start to the end, having that process defined, implemented and being able to carefully inspect each stage is again why Crafted By Infinity are the best.
 

Rockdiamond

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HI egemnoel,
A lot of what you're saying is very important to a lot of buyers.
As a CBI dealer- I can tell you that the stones ARE amazing.
By all means, feel free to tell people they are the world's best cut diamonds.

Speaking as a tradesperson here on PS, I believe I have a responsibility on a public forum to separate advertising from facts, I would put it this way: CBI are among the finest cut diamonds in the world. I don't think I've ever seen better work than Paul's- but I have seen others that could be said to be on the same level.
It's a very big world and best is a very big word:)
 

D_

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diamondseeker2006|1443541202|3933155 said:
egemnoel|1443522345|3933076 said:
DS,

Did PS Admin delete your previous post about the SAME cutters? I think it is important this information is known to potential diamond buyers. Thank you for sharing BTW.

Again another reason why Crafted By Infinity is the best! They are the ONLY cutters cutting every single diamond that Crafted By Infinity sells to the public. They are in complete control of the quality of their product!

I asked for it to be deleted, actually. But now that you have repeated what I said, I will just explain that I suppose I thought it was common knowledge that there are limited H&A cutting factories and vendors may be ordering some stones from the same sources just as regular diamonds are available from suppliers to many jewelers as we easily see on the PS diamond search tool. I doubt many vendors only carry diamonds from one source because not all customers are willing to pay the premium for true H&A anyway. Even if you bought from Wink, I can just about guarantee that if you visit his jewelry store, he has other diamonds besides CBI.

I will say that I disagree with you again on your last comment, because each jeweler can pick from the best from multiple top cutting sources for their inventories. They are in complete control over which diamonds meet their quality standards. Whiteflash, as one example, chooses the very top cut diamonds for their ACA line and puts the ideal cut near misses in their Expert selection line. I can see the quality of CBI, WF, VC, and GOG by looking at each stone's ASET and hearts images. I've been around here for almost 10 years and I have seen a LOT of top quality diamonds of my own and of my friends and have looked at the images of literally thousands as I have helped people search for diamonds. I am sincerely glad you are happy with your diamond and I think Infinity diamonds are wonderful! But there are plenty of others that are just as nice as yours!

Sheesh, DS.
He wants to believe that his diamond is the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the best-est.
Don't burst his bubble ;-)
(In case you don't know him, watch NFL, you may be able to catch him on the National car rental commercial. Control is a sexy word).
 
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