2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & clarity

[bqnbqn]

2.69ct G VVS2 AGS Ideal 000
http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104071002017-PLDQR.PDF

Should I be concerned about the tiny feather at the edge on the crown's plot? If this extends to the surface, is it still categorized as a feather? Will this pose as a durability issue? In addition, there is a natural on the pavilion side near the girdle. Would this be visible under 10x?

For me to get this diamond examined, I would need to buy it. I do however have 60 days to return risk-free. $48000 is a large sum and I would like to do as much homework on it before making the purchase just so that it can be examined.

Lastly, I plan to get this graded by GIA. I have read on many forums that AGS tends to be loose on color and clarity. Does anyone here have any first hand experience with GIA downgrading any AGS-certified diamonds' color and clarity?

Lastly, any concerns with the idealscope images?

Thanks in advance. I am planning to bring in it for a closer look. Just need some affirmation

 

[RandG]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

2.69ct G VVS2 AGS Ideal 000
http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104071002017-PLDQR.PDF

Should I be concerned about the tiny feather at the edge on the crown's plot? If this extends to the surface, is it still categorized as a feather? Will this pose as a durability issue? In addition, there is a natural on the pavilion side near the girdle. Would this be visible under 10x?

For me to get this diamond examined, I would need to buy it. I do however have 60 days to return risk-free. $48000 is a large sum and I would like to do as much homework on it before making the purchase just so that it can be examined.

Lastly, I plan to get this graded by GIA. I have read on many forums that AGS tends to be loose on color and clarity. Does anyone here have any first hand experience with GIA downgrading any AGS-certified diamonds' color and clarity?

Lastly, any concerns with the idealscope images?

Thanks in advance. I am planning to bring in it for a closer look. Just need some affirmation

I think this is a beautiful diamond, with great specs, but at this price point and size, the vendor should be providing a GIA cert. To me, it would be a non-starter without it. This is a very pricey diamond at nearly $18K per carat. If you were to consider going to H VS1, you could likely find a great stone in the 3 carat range, also with great specs and a GIA cert. I'm a big fan of finding the best diamond possible within a budget, but always careful not to buy more than is necessary to accomplish the goal. Finally, at this level, its an investment grade piece of jewelry. Just as you wouldn't overpay for a security, home, or other investment vehicle, you don't want to overpay for a diamond. You never know what you may do with it in the long run, and if you need that liquidity, either for cash, or to upgrade, you don't want to have overpaid. Just my two cents...

Good luck and congratulations!

 

[starryeyed]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

Hi bqnbqn!

I'm not an expert, but that looks like a nice diamond. The price seems good too.

At first I was wondering if you are paying too much by going with a VVS2, but it doesn't seem that way when I ran a quick diamond search (under the Resources tab). G is a great color too, good value.

I hope you'll be able to share some pictures of the diamond IRL! Have you thought about the setting?

 

[proto]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

This is a beautifully cut stone and likely the precise reason it did NOT go to GIA in the first place, and having the AGS cert is likely making this trade at a small premium to GIA.

AGS is comparable to GIA for colour/clarity. The trade responses on PS seem to be that AGS is equal to AGS for these items, but there is potential for bias because the PS vendors tend to focus more on cut, and lean towards stocking much more AGS graded stones than the rest of the market, where they are something like 1% of stones sent to a lab to be graded, compared to 70% for GIA. Even if the grades were different, they would not be more than 1 grade different.

If you are concerned about durability you should consider getting it shipped direct to an appraiser (some are advertised on PS and highly regarded) to check that the feather does not cause any issues on durability. As this is a VVS, I would be extremely surprised if this were to be the case. In fact, if I were a gambling man, I would lay you 50-1 it poses no risk.

https://www.pricescope.com/journal/diamond_feather_inclusions_durability_risk for further info.

As your query was limited to this aspect, and not on whether G is a good colour or VVS2 is a good clarity grade (or whether it is value for money), I will avoid adding my further two cents pending your replies to the other posts on this topic.

 

[starryeyed]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

Not sure what your schedule is, but you may want to consider the wait times at GIA.

http://www.gia.edu/gem-lab-return-dates

Heard it's been running a bit long.

ETA: Check out this thread about GIA wait times: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/why-is-gia-so-slow.202789/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/why-is-gia-so-slow.202789/[/URL]

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

I think there is a same day GIA option if you can take it in person. Check into that. As others have mentioned, there are no durability issues at all with VVS.

I do have experience with differences in AGS and GIA color grading. There have been at least three other people I have seen here have AGS grading a grade higher than GIA. My own experience was selling a GIA perfectly cut hearts and arrows stone and deciding with the vendor who was selling it for me to get a new lab report from AGS. He knew the color was borderline when he sold it to me as an H. It came back from AGS as G. Needless to say, it was a great advantage to me to sell at a color grade higher. In another instance, the same vendor was looking for a diamond to recut for me. He bought a GIA H again and it was a high H. After the recut, it was sent to AGS and same thing, it came back as G. Two members here wanted to upgrade and either traded in or sold their diamonds to vendors, and upon the AGS regrading, the stones came back a grade higher. They did not benefit, though, because the sale was based on the old report grades. Another member bought a three carat AGS I color stone, and her appraisal came back as J. The stone was sent to another respected appraiser with extra color grading technology, and he concurred that the stone was J color. I think this only happens when stones are borderline in color. I am sure AGS is accurate the VAST majority of the time. GIA is a little more strict on color when the color is borderline. The vendor I use has a pretty accurate colorimeter, which I know is not 100% accurate, but his has been accurate in all the instances we have tested it. Therefore, any time I consider a new stone, he checks the color for me. I won't buy an AGS stone that is at the low end of a color range unless I also had it graded by GIA because it would be very possible to overpay. One color grade can mean thousands of dollars when you get up to the 3 ct range.

So in your case, if I were spending $48k on a diamond, yes, absolutely I would want the GIA grading and the price would be contingent on the grading turning out the same. It is also absolutely not true that all top H&A stones go to AGS. Many cutters use GIA because it is the most respected lab internationally and grades a far greater percentage of stones than any other lab. There haven't been that many cases here of people getting grading from two labs, but from the examples I have seen, there is good reason to do so with more expensive stones.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

I would be perfectly content with a diamond graded by AGS. Their cut grading is far more accurate IMO than GIA. With a G color stone, I wouldn't be too concerned even if GIA came back with an H color grading. It is all subjective to a point anyway. Since the seller has already had it certed by AGS, I doubt he would agree to sell it for less regardless of what GIA said.

I'm sure it is a beautiful stone - take it to an independent appraiser for more assurance. The clarity is high so I doubt that you'll have any durability issues with this stone.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

2.69ct G VVS2 AGS Ideal 000
http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104071002017-PLDQR.PDF

Should I be concerned about the tiny feather at the edge on the crown's plot? No, you should not worry in a VVS2 diamond. At that clarity, inclusions are essentially irrelevant and nothing to worry about at allIf this extends to the surface, is it still categorized as a feather? Will this pose as a durability issue? No.In addition, there is a natural on the pavilion side near the girdle. Would this be visible under 10x? clarity is graded face up, not face down, so you would need to ask the vendor if you can see the natural under 10X. I doubt it is visible, because if it was large enough to be seen then it would likely also be large enough to be seen face up given its location. A VVS2 stone will not have any inclusions visible face up at 10X to non-experts

For me to get this diamond examined, I would need to buy it. I do however have 60 days to return risk-free. $48000 is a large sum and I would like to do as much homework on it before making the purchase just so that it can be examined.

Lastly, I plan to get this graded by GIA. I have read on many forums that AGS tends to be loose on color and clarity. Does anyone here have any first hand experience with GIA downgrading any AGS-certified diamonds' color and clarity?People come here all the time talking about this "loose grading" by AGS but there is no consistent evidence of that. AGS is highly reputable, and indeed, more reputable than GIA when it comes to cut grading. So there is no need to get a report from GIA -- why would you want one? You could not use it to negotiate pricing, because the stone is being sold as an AGS stone not a GIA stone, and you don't need it for insurance...

Lastly, any concerns with the idealscope images? They look great

Thanks in advance. I am planning to bring in it for a closer look. Just need some affirmation

Is there a reason you selected a VVS2 stone? You are paying a huge premium for that level of clarity, and its not really "necessary" in a concrete sense. Its only "necessary" if you like it or prefer it... but you should know you are paying for your own preferences only, and not really a physical characteristic of the stone that can be detected by non-experts using a loupe when compared to a VS1 diamond.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

2.69ct G VVS2 AGS Ideal 000
http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104071002017-PLDQR.PDF

Should I be concerned about the tiny feather at the edge on the crown's plot? If this extends to the surface, is it still categorized as a feather? Will this pose as a durability issue? In addition, there is a natural on the pavilion side near the girdle. Would this be visible under 10x?

For me to get this diamond examined, I would need to buy it. I do however have 60 days to return risk-free. $48000 is a large sum and I would like to do as much homework on it before making the purchase just so that it can be examined.

Lastly, I plan to get this graded by GIA. I have read on many forums that AGS tends to be loose on color and clarity. Does anyone here have any first hand experience with GIA downgrading any AGS-certified diamonds' color and clarity?

Lastly, any concerns with the idealscope images?

Thanks in advance. I am planning to bring in it for a closer look. Just need some affirmation

I think this is a beautiful diamond, with great specs, but at this price point and size, the vendor should be providing a GIA cert. To me, it would be a non-starter without it. This is a very pricey diamond at nearly $18K per carat. If you were to consider going to H VS1, you could likely find a great stone in the 3 carat range, also with great specs and a GIA cert. I'm a big fan of finding the best diamond possible within a budget, but always careful not to buy more than is necessary to accomplish the goal. Finally, at this level, its an investment grade piece of jewelry. Just as you wouldn't overpay for a security, home, or other investment vehicle, you don't want to overpay for a diamond. You never know what you may do with it in the long run, and if you need that liquidity, either for cash, or to upgrade, you don't want to have overpaid. Just my two cents...

Good luck and congratulations!

Can you please explain why you are against an AGS lab report? It is the report of choice of most of the regular PS vendors who sell top of the top diamonds because it is a lab that is much more strict on cut and also reliable on other gradings too. While not as well-known world-wide as GIA, AGS is highly reputable.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

I do have experience with differences in AGS and GIA color grading. There have been at least three other people I have seen here have AGS grading a grade higher than GIA. My own experience was selling a GIA perfectly cut hearts and arrows stone and deciding with the vendor who was selling it for me to get a new lab report from AGS. He knew the color was borderline when he sold it to me as an H. It came back from AGS as G. Needless to say, it was a great advantage to me to sell at a color grade higher. In another instance, the same vendor was looking for a diamond to recut for me. He bought a GIA H again and it was a high H. After the recut, it was sent to AGS and same thing, it came back as G. Two members here wanted to upgrade and either traded in or sold their diamonds to vendors, and upon the AGS regrading, the stones came back a grade higher. They did not benefit, though, because the sale was based on the old report grades. Another member bought a three carat AGS I color stone, and her appraisal came back as J. The stone was sent to another respected appraiser with extra color grading technology, and he concurred that the stone was J color. I think this only happens when stones are borderline in color. I am sure AGS is accurate the VAST majority of the time. GIA is a little more strict on color when the color is borderline. The vendor I use has a pretty accurate colorimeter, which I know is not 100% accurate, but his has been accurate in all the instances we have tested it. Therefore, any time I consider a new stone, he checks the color for me. I won't buy an AGS stone that is at the low end of a color range unless I also had it graded by GIA because it would be very possible to overpay. One color grade can mean thousands of dollars when you get up to the 3 ct range.

I just want to point out some reasons for these outcomes OTHER than systematic bias on the part of the labs. As a statistician I cannot ignore these issues!

There are a number of really important facts that influence the "data" we have about the color grading of GIA and AGS.

1) Most of the diamonds we buy on PS are AGS stones, and most of the stones we recertify years later are diamonds that originally have GIA reports and then are sent to AGS. These factors mean that we are much more likely to "discover" supposed misgrades by AGS than the opposite (i.e., GIA being easier than AGS).

2) People would only recertify a diamond if they thought it was graded harshly. Why bother if you think the grade will be lower or the same? This increases the chances we will read about cases of stones coming back with higher grades -- because only those stones will be sent to the lab again. Add this fact to PSers love of AGS -- so most stones are recertified by that lab -- and you end up with a recipe for "cases" of GIA stones being graded "easily" by AGS.

So, most of the examples DS cited were cases where a GIA diamond that was borderline between two grades was send to AGS and came back the higher grade.

It is highly highly possible those same diamonds if sent to AGS a second time, blindly, would also have come back as the better color grade upon second inspection. This is the nature of random error in grading -- it is random. One sampling results in harsh grading and another in liberal grading. It only appears that the lab -- GIA versis AGS -- is responsible for the difference because the stone was sent to two different labs. Hence, random variance appears to be systematic variance when it is not!

Because of this, it is possible that if we selected five diamonds from AGS that were borderline cases where the diamond was graded as the lower grade and sent those stones to GIA, we would also see that GIA graded the stones one grade higher. This is the nature of random variance and the process of "regression to the mean" -- harsh results that are random (e.g., the grader had a bad day) tend to improve the second time around.

In conclusion, we simply do not have the right data to claim that GIA is harsher than AGS. I really think we should stop spreading that rumor until a systematic study is done like the studies comparing AGS/GIA to EGL by various appraisers on PS.

ETA: I recall Oldminer -- aka Dave Atlas -- saying on PS that GIA has also become more lax over the last few decades. Presumably, AGS has too. So if someone has a GIA stone from two decades ago and send it to AGS, then it may come back a better color grade.... but it would also have come back a better color grade if sent to GIA. TIME, not the lab, is the true cause of thise color grade difference (for stats geeks -- time is confounded with lab as the causal factor in this example).

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

I am sure AGS is accurate the VAST majority of the time. GIA is a little more strict on color when the color is borderline. The vendor I use has a pretty accurate colorimeter, which I know is not 100% accurate, but his has been accurate in all the instances we have tested it. Therefore, any time I consider a new stone, he checks the color for me. I won't buy an AGS stone that is at the low end of a color range unless I also had it graded by GIA because it would be very possible to overpay. One color grade can mean thousands of dollars when you get up to the 3 ct range.

My wife's GIA H colored stone is more closer to a G according to Jon's colorimeter. IMO...My wife's AGS 1.15ct I colored stone is closer to a J color.

 

[SirGuy]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

Great post, dreamer! Some very good points there.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

[quote="Dreamer_D|1403220767|

Because of this, it is possible that if we selected five diamonds from AGS that were borderline cases where the diamond was graded as the lower grade and sent those stones to GIA, we would also see that GIA graded the stones one grade higher. This is the nature of random variance and the process of "regression to the mean" -- harsh results that are random (e.g., the grader had a bad day) tend to improve the second time around.

In conclusion, we simply do not have the right data to claim that GIA is harsher than AGS. I really think we should stop spreading that rumor until a systematic study is done like the studies comparing AGS/GIA to EGL by various appraisers on PS.

[/quote]


Yup, I'd agree with Dreamer!...on any given days a borderline stone can/could grade as G today and the same graders from either GIA or AGS lab could call the same stone an H color tomorrow or vice versa. I don't have a preference for either lab, however my last 4 purchases were graded by AGS.

 

[RandG]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

2.69ct G VVS2 AGS Ideal 000
http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104071002017-PLDQR.PDF

Should I be concerned about the tiny feather at the edge on the crown's plot? If this extends to the surface, is it still categorized as a feather? Will this pose as a durability issue? In addition, there is a natural on the pavilion side near the girdle. Would this be visible under 10x?

For me to get this diamond examined, I would need to buy it. I do however have 60 days to return risk-free. $48000 is a large sum and I would like to do as much homework on it before making the purchase just so that it can be examined.

Lastly, I plan to get this graded by GIA. I have read on many forums that AGS tends to be loose on color and clarity. Does anyone here have any first hand experience with GIA downgrading any AGS-certified diamonds' color and clarity?

Lastly, any concerns with the idealscope images?

Thanks in advance. I am planning to bring in it for a closer look. Just need some affirmation

I think this is a beautiful diamond, with great specs, but at this price point and size, the vendor should be providing a GIA cert. To me, it would be a non-starter without it. This is a very pricey diamond at nearly $18K per carat. If you were to consider going to H VS1, you could likely find a great stone in the 3 carat range, also with great specs and a GIA cert. I'm a big fan of finding the best diamond possible within a budget, but always careful not to buy more than is necessary to accomplish the goal. Finally, at this level, its an investment grade piece of jewelry. Just as you wouldn't overpay for a security, home, or other investment vehicle, you don't want to overpay for a diamond. You never know what you may do with it in the long run, and if you need that liquidity, either for cash, or to upgrade, you don't want to have overpaid. Just my two cents...

Good luck and congratulations!

Can you please explain why you are against an AGS lab report? It is the report of choice of most of the regular PS vendors who sell top of the top diamonds because it is a lab that is much more strict on cut and also reliable on other gradings too. While not as well-known world-wide as GIA, AGS is highly reputable.

I can see you're very passionate about AGS. I would hardly say I'm "against" AGS. While I recognize there are certain preferred vendors marketed throughout the posts on this site, I have no bias nor am I influenced by anything other than my own personal experience of buying and collecting premium priced diamonds for twenty years. For a diamond of this size and price point, a GIA cert is essential. An AGS cert in this circumstance does this buyer a disservice. For what he's paying for this particular diamond, he shouldn't even have to ask for a GIA cert. Should the buyer ever go to sell this stone, any savvy trader will diminish the value of the stone based solely on an AGS cert, and insist on a recertification by GIA. Perhaps in time GIA will fall from its stature, but for now, it is the preferred lab most recognized anywhere in the world.

AGS would never be my first choice of lab for a diamond nor would I rely on the results, exclusively. Now, for a colored stone, its a whole other story...

 

[MissGotRocks]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

No, a GIA cert is not essential. GIA may be the most highly recognized lab by name but certainly not the best for light performance grading. AGS graded stones generally trade at a premium price - why do you think that is? Diamond cutting has progressed to a science and AGS is on the forefront in their diamond grading. People are far more interested in cut quality today than ever before. They are not simply buying an F color, VS1 clarity stone. They are looking for the best cut quality that their money can buy. That is industry wide - not just here among PS vendors.

The internet has changed shopping dramatically in the last 20 years in just about every product we purchase. Diamonds are no exception. Education is key to an informed, savvy buying decision and there is a wealth of information on the internet. I think few would agree with you that a GIA cert is essential; many would prefer an AGS certification. It will not in any way diminish the value of a stone.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

No, a GIA cert is not essential. GIA may be the most highly recognized lab by name but certainly not the best for light performance grading. AGS graded stones generally trade at a premium price - why do you think that is? Diamond cutting has progressed to a science and AGS is on the forefront in their diamond grading. People are far more interested in cut quality today than ever before. They are not simply buying an F color, VS1 clarity stone. They are looking for the best cut quality that their money can buy. That is industry wide - not just here among PS vendors.

The internet has changed shopping dramatically in the last 20 years in just about every product we purchase. Diamonds are no exception. Education is key to an informed, savvy buying decision and there is a wealth of information on the internet. I think few would agree with you that a GIA cert is essential; many would prefer an AGS certification. It will not in any way diminish the value of a stone.

Yes, AGS graded stones generally trade at a premium price.I wouldn't mind buying a well cut stone from either lab.

 

[starryeyed]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

Hi bqnbqn.

Seems you've opened a can of worms with this whole GIA vs. AGS question. Did you see this under the "Knowledge" tab:

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamond-grading/clarity-and-color

Looks like in this study, GIA color was lower than AGS 3 times, higher one time, and the same 12 times. Pretty comparable.

WRT clarity, GIA clarity was higher than AGS 9 times, lower 1 time, and the same 6 times. So AGS appears stricter on clarity.

I agree with MissGot Rocks, what's the point? An AGS is a very well-respected lab, and to many people (not all obviously), preferable to GIA.

 

[bqnbqn]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

Thank you all for your replies. To answer some asking why I chose VVS2, it has to do with the fact that both my soon-to-be fiancee and I are from Southeast Asia. Most Asians I know value clarity above all (at least VVS2) as it represents good luck for the marriage and my mother-in-law happens to belong to that group . Even AGS lab grading is not sufficient; GIA seems to be the preferred choice among our community. For me, VS1 is sufficient but I don't want to hear about the stone not being VVS for the rest of my life . GIA Triple EX, F color, IF clarity is the preferred combination but I'm not going to sacrifice size for my $50,000 budget to get this level of clarity. Thus, I decided to look for G, VVS1 or VVS2 with next to zero inclusions on the crown face and faint to zero fluorescence above 2.5ct within my budget. If anyone here can recommend a better stone, I would appreciate it.

My worry is, if I bring this stone to a GIA lab (in Carlsbad, CA, close to where I live), it may be graded H. For the same weight, cut and clarity, H would be 10% less in price. I have asked the vendor to have it certified at GIA as well but I doubt they would do that. I have looked online and this stone at $48,000 seems to be a very good price for 2.69, VVS2 G and AGS ideal with no fluorescence and almost no inclusions on the crown face. Again, I would welcome any recommendations for similar stones within my budget and requirements.

Thanks again

 

[RandG]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

Thank you all for your replies. To answer some asking why I chose VVS2, it has to do with the fact that both my soon-to-be fiancee and I are from Southeast Asia. Most Asians I know value clarity above all (at least VVS2) as it represents good luck for the marriage and my mother-in-law happens to belong to that group . Even AGS lab grading is not sufficient; GIA seems to be the preferred choice among our community. For me, VS1 is sufficient but I don't want to hear about the stone not being VVS for the rest of my life . GIA Triple EX, F color, IF clarity is the preferred combination but I'm not going to sacrifice size for my $50,000 budget to get this level of clarity. Thus, I decided to look for G, VVS1 or VVS2 with next to zero inclusions on the crown face and faint to zero fluorescence above 2.5ct within my budget. If anyone here can recommend a better stone, I would appreciate it.

My worry is, if I bring this stone to a GIA lab (in Carlsbad, CA, close to where I live), it may be graded H. For the same weight, cut and clarity, H would be 10% less in price. I have asked the vendor to have it certified at GIA as well but I doubt they would do that. I have looked online and this stone at $48,000 seems to be a very good price for 2.69, VVS2 G and AGS ideal with no fluorescence and almost no inclusions on the crown face. Again, I would welcome any recommendations for similar stones within my budget and requirements.

Thanks again

It sounds like you know what you want and the good thing is, its out there. You would not be making a mistake by purchasing this stone so long as you know you're paying a premium for it, without a GIA cert. It would be a shame to buy a stone you know would grade less than your optimal merely because its the only one you've seen in your budget. Your budget is significant. I'm sure your jeweler has access to Rap. By doing a very cursory search, your jeweler will find a selection of GIA graded stones, in your parameters. Your prospective fiancé is a very lucky lady! You have excellent taste!

 

[starryeyed]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

Thank you all for your replies. To answer some asking why I chose VVS2, it has to do with the fact that both my soon-to-be fiancee and I are from Southeast Asia. Most Asians I know value clarity above all (at least VVS2) as it represents good luck for the marriage and my mother-in-law happens to belong to that group . Even AGS lab grading is not sufficient; GIA seems to be the preferred choice among our community. For me, VS1 is sufficient but I don't want to hear about the stone not being VVS for the rest of my life . GIA Triple EX, F color, IF clarity is the preferred combination but I'm not going to sacrifice size for my $50,000 budget to get this level of clarity. Thus, I decided to look for G, VVS1 or VVS2 with next to zero inclusions on the crown face and faint to zero fluorescence above 2.5ct within my budget. If anyone here can recommend a better stone, I would appreciate it.

My worry is, if I bring this stone to a GIA lab (in Carlsbad, CA, close to where I live), it may be graded H. For the same weight, cut and clarity, H would be 10% less in price. I have asked the vendor to have it certified at GIA as well but I doubt they would do that. I have looked online and this stone at $48,000 seems to be a very good price for 2.69, VVS2 G and AGS ideal with no fluorescence and almost no inclusions on the crown face. Again, I would welcome any recommendations for similar stones within my budget and requirements.

Thanks again

I agree that the stone appears to be a good value. I can understand your uncertainty if the GIA cert is preferable among your community, but your retort can easily be that AGS is stricter about clarity and cut quality. Given the study, it would be entirely possible that your AGS stone comes back from GIA a G VVS1 (and NOT an H). So should you then pay a premium?

It's a lot of money at stake so I think you are right to consider all of the angles. The fact that you are here and doing your homework says a lot. In the end, you have to be satisfied with your decision and confident about it. I can't imagine anyone (other than someone who is jealous) not being happy for your betrothed to see an incredibly cut, large (!!) stone.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

Bqnbqn,
Congrats on a gorgeous diamond with outstanding light performance. Do not worry about feathers causing any kind of durability issue in a VVS clarity.

Regarding AGS vs GIA grading, you have already received alot of good feedback on this issue. I am firmly in the camp that the two labs are on par with color and clarity grading. Our company sells both, and only, diamonds with reports from one of these two labs. Because AGS does by far the best cut quality grading, based on scientifically rigorous light performance analysis, we stock more AGS. But over the past 15 years we have had occassion to compare grading many times. The acknowledged and accepted variance of one grade, plus or minus in color or clarity has held true from our experience. In cases where there is a variance, they go in both directions. Therefore, we don't see any consistent or predictable difference in this regard between the labs, despite opinions to the contrary that are generally based upon very limited sampling. AGS goes to great lengths to stay in synch with GIA on color and clarity grading, including using GIA vetted master color sets. Also, it is important to understand that larger stones are always graded by multiple graders including the most experienced on staff.

Having said all that, cultural bias in favor of GIA is strong and it is completely understandable that you would want dual certs. It does present challenges for the vendor however, and possibly for you if you are working on a short time line. The idea that the vendor should have an obligation to present a GIA report in addition to the AGS cert is not really the way the world works, although there is no reason- other than time, money and possible customer confusion - that it can't be done.

The more efficient way to proceed for someone who requires a GIA cert but wants the superior light performance analysis of AGS, is to take a GIA stone and send it to AGS for cut-only grading. The only caveat is that if you are very particular about the light performance, you won't get the top cut grade with most GIA diamonds. You would want your vendor to provide you with LP images so that you have the best chance of getting the top grade for light performance, such as you have with the stone you are currently considering.

Good luck to you in getting everything you hope for. You are off to a very good start.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

Thanks for your input on this Bryan. I think it is important to hear individual testimonials based on experience but your response is based on a much more broad based experience with both labs. It is a bit shocking to hear about color/clarity differences in labs but I do think a one color/one clarity variance between labs makes sense. It is not a completely infallible system. If you buy a G color stone with the understanding that another group of experienced diamond graders could call it an H - or maybe even an F - depending on the stone, you would be making a more realistic purchase. There would be a price difference of course but I agree that once a vendor has a stone certed by a lab, they will not have it regraded by another lab in hopes that it would grade lower at a lower price to the consumer. The cost and time involved in all of that doesn't make sense.

I think the OP has found what is probably a beautiful stone. I'm sorry that the cultural constraints make it questionable for them but I understand their point of view.

 

[doberman]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

I don't see why you would need a GIA report for this diamond. As stated above, both labs are on par with AGS being the stricter on cut grade. (I have an AGS00 that has no GIA papers, it was a BN Signature.) I think the clarity grade speaks for itself, feather or not.

 

[bqnbqn]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

Thanks again for all the feedback. It looks like the general consensus is that this is well cut stone. My concern with the color is that if this is a low G, low enough for GIA to grade it as an H, then I guess the price of $48,000 is no longer a good one. This is because I have searched for the last 2 months online and have not found one with a H&A cut with excellent light performance at this carat weight, clarity and color for this price. Most 2.5-2.7ct G VVS2 with excellent cut have much more inclusions on the crown face and over $50,000, closer to $55,000 towards the 2.7 end. So, this one appears to be an outlier unless there is something the vendor has not disclosed about it. Although it has no fluorescence, is there a chance it can still be milky?

One last concern, with the crown angle at 35.4% and table at 55.7% indicating a not-shallow cut, does the diameter range of 8.87 - 8.90 seem rather large to you for a 2.69ct stone? I'm not really complaining about it as it is a plus if the diamond still has great light performance.

If anyone here can recommend an alternative stone within my budget, I would be more than happy to consider it. Again, I've only searched using PS, BN and other retails online and don't have access to databases such as rapnet, polygon, etc. so I don't really know what else is out there. I do have a local jeweler searching for me but so far, I haven't presented with anything that falls within my search criteria of 2.5-2.7ct, G, VVS2, excellent cut, and next to no inclusions on crown face under $50,000.

This is a great forum for newbies like me. Much appreciate all the advice given thus far.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

2.69ct G VVS2 AGS Ideal 000
http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104071002017-PLDQR.PDF

Should I be concerned about the tiny feather at the edge on the crown's plot? If this extends to the surface, is it still categorized as a feather? Will this pose as a durability issue? In addition, there is a natural on the pavilion side near the girdle. Would this be visible under 10x?

For me to get this diamond examined, I would need to buy it. I do however have 60 days to return risk-free. $48000 is a large sum and I would like to do as much homework on it before making the purchase just so that it can be examined.

Lastly, I plan to get this graded by GIA. I have read on many forums that AGS tends to be loose on color and clarity. Does anyone here have any first hand experience with GIA downgrading any AGS-certified diamonds' color and clarity?

Lastly, any concerns with the idealscope images?

Thanks in advance. I am planning to bring in it for a closer look. Just need some affirmation

I think this is a beautiful diamond, with great specs, but at this price point and size, the vendor should be providing a GIA cert. To me, it would be a non-starter without it. This is a very pricey diamond at nearly $18K per carat. If you were to consider going to H VS1, you could likely find a great stone in the 3 carat range, also with great specs and a GIA cert. I'm a big fan of finding the best diamond possible within a budget, but always careful not to buy more than is necessary to accomplish the goal. Finally, at this level, its an investment grade piece of jewelry. Just as you wouldn't overpay for a security, home, or other investment vehicle, you don't want to overpay for a diamond. You never know what you may do with it in the long run, and if you need that liquidity, either for cash, or to upgrade, you don't want to have overpaid. Just my two cents...

Good luck and congratulations!

Can you please explain why you are against an AGS lab report? It is the report of choice of most of the regular PS vendors who sell top of the top diamonds because it is a lab that is much more strict on cut and also reliable on other gradings too. While not as well-known world-wide as GIA, AGS is highly reputable.

I can see you're very passionate about AGS. I would hardly say I'm "against" AGS. While I recognize there are certain preferred vendors marketed throughout the posts on this site, I have no bias nor am I influenced by anything other than my own personal experience of buying and collecting premium priced diamonds for twenty years. For a diamond of this size and price point, a GIA cert is essential. An AGS cert in this circumstance does this buyer a disservice. For what he's paying for this particular diamond, he shouldn't even have to ask for a GIA cert. Should the buyer ever go to sell this stone, any savvy trader will diminish the value of the stone based solely on an AGS cert, and insist on a recertification by GIA. Perhaps in time GIA will fall from its stature, but for now, it is the preferred lab most recognized anywhere in the world.

AGS would never be my first choice of lab for a diamond nor would I rely on the results, exclusively. Now, for a colored stone, its a whole other story...

I am not passionate about AGS. I am passionate about providing sound and justified advice to consumers in RT. I thought your advice needed a little more justification or clarification, which is why I asked. It sounds like your concerns about AGS stem primarily from a resale perspective. That may be a fair assessment, it sounds like you have more experience reselling large diamonds than I do. My only experience selling a larger diamond was selling a modern round with an AGS report and I sold it to a dealer for the same that I paid buying it retail a few years previously. But I think it's important to always state your reasons for a particular opinion when advising in RT. The consumer asking the question may Or may not care about resale value as the primary consideration in his purchase, and so he would need that opinion to judge your advice. You may also want to provide some reasons why you think a GIA diamond, particularly a modern RB bought and presumably resold in the US would achieve a better resale value than a similar stone with a GIA report. Not only might the OP be interested in that information, but silent lurker a might also benefit and the rest of us might also learn something.

In my experience, most people care about a lab report as a means of reliably determining fair market value for the diamond they are buying, and as a means of ensuring that they are receiving a diamond that will look as they desire. For those purposes, I suggest that AGS and GIA are equivalent.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

Thank you all for your replies. To answer some asking why I chose VVS2, it has to do with the fact that both my soon-to-be fiancee and I are from Southeast Asia. Most Asians I know value clarity above all (at least VVS2) as it represents good luck for the marriage and my mother-in-law happens to belong to that group . Even AGS lab grading is not sufficient; GIA seems to be the preferred choice among our community. For me, VS1 is sufficient but I don't want to hear about the stone not being VVS for the rest of my life . GIA Triple EX, F color, IF clarity is the preferred combination but I'm not going to sacrifice size for my $50,000 budget to get this level of clarity. Thus, I decided to look for G, VVS1 or VVS2 with next to zero inclusions on the crown face and faint to zero fluorescence above 2.5ct within my budget. If anyone here can recommend a better stone, I would appreciate it.

My worry is, if I bring this stone to a GIA lab (in Carlsbad, CA, close to where I live), it may be graded H. For the same weight, cut and clarity, H would be 10% less in price. I have asked the vendor to have it certified at GIA as well but I doubt they would do that. I have looked online and this stone at $48,000 seems to be a very good price for 2.69, VVS2 G and AGS ideal with no fluorescence and almost no inclusions on the crown face. Again, I would welcome any recommendations for similar stones within my budget and requirements.

Thanks again

Given All of this information, I would not suggest you buy and AGS diamond with the plan to have it sent to GIA unless the sale can be contingent on the GIA report. It's too risky, becuase there are no guarantees concerning the grade this stone would get on second inspection, by any lab. As the data starryeyed posted demonstrated (thank you for that link starry I had not seen it!), while consistent between labs overall, there is always some error. It seems you have a choice to make regarding your priorities. You have been looking a long time, and it seems unlikely you can find what you want meeting all your criteria. This one took two months to find and it does not meet what could be the most important criteria of all -- meeting the extended family's approval! Hopefully someone can find a good stone to you... But if not, what are you willing to change? I don't think I would sacrifice the criteria needed to satisfy the extended family... We have heard too many stories of such disapproval lasting a lifetime, and surely that is not worth saving 10% on your budget (the different in price between this stone and others you have found)

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

The OP did specifically ask if anyone knew of color grading differences. One of my examples above did recently have her AGS stone regraded by GIA since she was considering selling it (and diamond dealers did insist on a GIA report), and it did come back a grade lower as the appraisers told her at the outset. I know she negotiated a lower selling price with her vendor in the first place. But it could hurt a lot to later sell a stone that gets a grade lower in color, and some buyers do want GIA grading outside of our little world here.

I just looked at two GIA XXX stones from BN in the 2.6 ct range, VVS2, and the price difference between G and H was $5700. That is a lot of money to some of us. If my AGS diamond was borderline low in color and was graded lower by GIA, I would do one of two things...negotiate a lower price or choose another diamond. Hopefully this stone is exactly as graded! It likely is, but it is up to the OP whether he cares to find out. It certainly could go to an appraiser like David Atlas who evaluated color on one of my examples if he wants a quick opinion before deciding to go through GIA.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

And the irony of all this ...if the stone comes back from GIA the same color/clarity...the AGS report would fetch more $$$ if the OP ever decide to sell the stone in the future. I know, I know...what if it comes back an H color from GIA..

 

[John P]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

Lastly, I plan to get this graded by GIA. I have read on many forums that AGS tends to be loose on color and clarity. Does anyone here have any first hand experience with GIA downgrading any AGS-certified diamonds' color and clarity

First hand experience here. We regularly submit to both labs.

Short answer: AGSL is not loose. I can describe why that comment makes the rounds though.

We all know color and clarity are subjective and occur on a sliding scale. That means any "G" diamond can be G+ or G- compared to F and H. It's the same with clarity. This is why a +/- 1 grade tolerance between educated professionals is expressed as reasonable. For an educated submitter there will be three possible results for any given diamond’s color and clarity: (1) The lab’s grade is in-line with the submitter’s grade (2) The lab’s grade is stricter than the submitters grade (3) The lab’s grade is softer than the submitter’s grade.

How do submitters approach discrepancies? Generalized...

* When GIA is stricter the submitter requests a re-check. That request might be captioned "Beg pardon m'lord…please forgive me…but are you certain?.-“
* When AGSL is stricter the re-check may be demanded with frowning face, hands-on-hips, and even "Ahem…GIA would give this (desired-grade).-“
* Alternately, when GIA is softer the submitter’s reaction is wide-eyes, a finger to the lips and “Shhh…we received a gift.-”
* But when AGSL is softer the reaction is to pick up the phone, call some friends and brag about the “improvement.-”

While dramatizations, the synopses above are constantly playing on diamond-world-Broadway. In essence, GIA “gifts” are hush-hush, because no one wants to devalue the perception of GIA’s strictness. AGSL “gifts” are far more gossiped-about, even by people who never use the lab.

What's certain: A submitter will receive “gifts” and “downgrades” from any lab on the planet, no matter how strict. It’s unavoidable due to subjectivity. Therefore, the happiest submitters are those making pre-grading purchases (rough or polished) knowing already where the “G” sits (closer to F or H), where the “SI1” sits (closer to VS2 or SI2) etc... Even then there will be outliers in the results, but a production team with enough skill and experience can accurately predict what’s coming back – from both labs – around 90% of the time or better.

 

[John P]

Re: 2.69ct G VVS2 worries - feather,natural, AGS color & cla

But over the past 15 years we have had occassion to compare grading many times. The acknowledged and accepted variance of one grade, plus or minus in color or clarity has held true from our experience. In cases where there is a variance, they go in both directions.

This is our experience as well.

Another point can be made regarding consistency. Any lab, no matter how efficient, produces outliers and exceptions which deviate by one or more degrees from the median, despite best efforts. In that sense AGSL has a single lab location grading appx 200,000.- diamonds per year. By contrast GIA has seven locations with hundreds of graders, now grading between 2-4 million diamonds per year.

A common sense exercise, comparing 3,850 diamonds graded-per-week (in 1 location) to circa 60,000.- diamonds graded-per-week (across 7 locations) makes it no stretch to presume AGSL’s output to be statistically more consistent - with less deviation from the median - than the all-told of GIA.

So while the smaller market-share of AGSL may be a disadvantage, compared to the unarguable size and recognition GIA commands, there are advantages with AGSL in terms of consistency which can be appreciated on a diamond-by-diamond basis.