wholesale prices

[hondo17]

I''m thinking that jewelry stores are making a lot. What would you think retailers like blue nile, cosco, pay for diamonds. I saw this trade book Rapporpord at zale and they offered me a % off the price in the book. If it says $6300 what do you think they pay, so I can negotiate. I really would love to know

 

[Mara]

the trade book you mention is called Rappaport.

online vendors/jewelers do not carry remotely near the same markup as B&M jewelry stores.

so you may be able to negotiate on pricing a little but it won't be as much as with an offline store. aka someone like a Harry Winston has been known to just drop the price of a ring/diamond 30% but online you will be lucky to get about 5% off. but the HW stone was already marked up enough to cover their wholesale, markup margins and still allow for the 30% off. whereas online they probably had a very slim margin to begin with.

make sure to set your expectations realistically when you shop. what are the stone specs of what you are buying? just make sure that you are not paying an extra $1k offline to shop at Zales (icky...I would never spend $6k or even $3k at Zales!) when you could get something much nicer looking online or with a more reputable jeweler offline.

 

[hondo17]

does costco pay $3000 for a #6300 diamond? Is there a standard price or a savigs/discount to that rappaport book. How do they make their prices. Does anybody know. This is fustrating. It seems like a big game. thanks for the spelling.

 

[diagem]

I would suggest for you to shop around and check prices out for the type of diamond you are looking for...

Rapaport will only confuse you!!!! because every diamond is another world practicaly, and its use for the trade only...

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 5/19/2006 1:36:39 PM
Author: Mara
(icky...I would never spend $6k or even $3k at Zales!) when you could get something much nicer looking online or with a more reputable jeweler offline.

I have to agree with this I was in Manhattan and for a lark I decided to stop into the Zales by Pen station... and well, I don't want to go into too much detail but please, please consider some of the PS vendors.. depending on where you live some might even be near you and you could go and check them out in person if that's a concern for you.

 

[Mara]

there is no magical calculation to find out how much something cost...and i also have to say don''t use rappaport as a bible, i think that is a sales tactic when stores like to say ''i can offer you X off rappaport'' because it sounds official. i''d just shop around and price compare and go from there. don''t think about ''how low you can go''....rather think about what you are paying for and what you are getting, quality that is.

 

[denverappraiser]

There''s quie a bit of discussion in the tutorial, in the journal section and in this forum about the usefulness of the Rapaport lists for various things.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[jasontb]

https://www.pricescope.com/prices_traps.asp

 

[pricescope]

hondo17: "does costco pay $3000 for a #6300 diamond?"

No. Tiifany gross profit is below 60% and Wal-Mart about 23%. We had this data from 2004. someone can look for fresh public numbers for the year 2005.

----------
Some public data. (SG&A is selling, general and administrative expenses.)
Tiffany & Co.
RESULTS OF OPERATIONS Certain operating data as a percentage of n f et sales were as follows:
2003 2002 2001 Net sales 100.0% 100.0% 100.0%
Cost of sales 42.1% 40.7 41.3
Gross profit: 57.9% 59.3 58.7.
SG&A 40.1% 40.6 39.4
Earnings from operations 17.8% 18.7 19.3
Interest, financing and g other (income) expenses, net 0.7 1.2 1.3
Earnings before income taxes 17.1% 17.5 18.0
Provision for f income taxes 6.3% 6.4 7.2
Net earnings 10.8% 11.1% 10.8% TIFFANY & CO. AND SUBSIDIARIES
Neiman Marcus
Fiscal year | Gross Margin | SG&A:
2003 | 33.1% | 25.9%
JCPenney
Fiscal year | Gross Margin | SG&A:
2003 | 37.2% | 32.8%
2002 | 35.9% | 32.0%
Sears
Fiscal year | Gross Margin | SG&A:
2003 | 27.9% | 22.2%
2002 | 28.2% | 22.4%
Wal-Mart 2004 annual report
Fiscal year | Gross Margin | SG&A:
2003 | 22.3% | 17.4%
2004 | 22.5% | 17.5%

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 5/19/2006 1:52:04 PM
Author: hondo17
does costco pay $3000 for a #6300 diamond? Is there a standard price or a savigs/discount to that rappaport book. How do they make their prices. Does anybody know. This is fustrating. It seems like a big game. thanks for the spelling.

if a vendor offer you stones at 30-35% back of Rap (too good to be true

) you better run fast !!! something is off on the 4 c''s.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Date: 5/19/2006 7:54:21 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 5/19/2006 1:52:04 PM
Author: hondo17
does costco pay $3000 for a #6300 diamond? Is there a standard price or a savigs/discount to that rappaport book. How do they make their prices. Does anybody know. This is fustrating. It seems like a big game. thanks for the spelling.

if a vendor offer you stones at 30-35% back of Rap (too good to be true

) you better run fast !!! something is off on the 4 c''s.

That''s the point. By simply using the Rap sheet with a percentage off quote...you will have no idea on the cut of the diamond. The Rap sheet was never intended to be available to the consumer...but all that has changed. A dealer still pays an annual subscription fee.
Hondo17, please take your time, do some research and make your selection process an interesting and enjoyable experience. Good luck!

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 5/19/2006 7:54:21 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 5/19/2006 1:52:04 PM

Author: hondo17

does costco pay $3000 for a #6300 diamond? Is there a standard price or a savigs/discount to that rappaport book. How do they make their prices. Does anybody know. This is fustrating. It seems like a big game. thanks for the spelling.

if a vendor offer you stones at 30-35% back of Rap (too good to be true

) you better run fast !!! something is off on the 4 c''s.

True and it is usually the cutting.

I can pay more than Rap for an EightStar and 50-60% less than Rap for an excrementally cut lifeless lump of crystallized carbon.

The discount I pay from Rap is different for a 1/4 carat than it is for a 40 pointer and for a 1 carat than it is for a 1.75ct.

What I am trying to say is that if you are not involved in the trade on a daily basis you will NOT be able to judge how to apply the Rap report properly to the diamond you are looking at. You must be able to judge not only the size, the color and clarity, and most importantly the premium or discount to be applied because of the cutting of the diamond. You will never get a great or probably even a good deal at Zales, especially when playing by their rules with their tools that they purposely use to obfuscate the FACT that they know you do not know what they know about diamonds.

Wink

 

[niceguymr]

A PS vendor shared some interesting information with me.

The stones you see listed on the PS search average an 8% markup. You'll notice the same exact stone available through various vendors and varying prices (although the prices are within reasonable proximity to one another). This is because each of the online vendors have slightly different operating costs, but not much. They all pay the same for the stones, but since no two business are run exactly the same way, they have their own formulas for marking up the prices. But as I mentioned at the beginning, this number averages out to be 8%, which is a reasonable amount of profit for an online business owner to make considering they don't have nearly the overhead of a B&M business. Much less, most of the stones you see on a PS search aren't even in stock at one particular vendor or another. They all share many of the same wholesalers to provide us the same stones. In my experience in dealing with some of the online vendors here on PS, most were willing to lower the price of any stone I was interested by about 3%. YMMV.

ETA... If your savvy enough, you can get roughly the same pricing or better for a local 'mom & pop' type B&M store. Sure they'd rather make more money off of you, but just print out the prices you're getting online, and they'll surely match them to get your business. In my case, I got my stone for about $800 less than the lowest price for a comparable stone on PS ($10K range), and the setting for less than half the price seen online. Again... YMMV.

 

[perry]

NiceGuy:

I am not so sure that your numbers are necessarly right - or that you can necessarily get the same stone for less from a B&M. I will concede that you can often get a similar but cheaper stone from a B&M. The question - is does the differences matter?

One of the factors in diamond pricing is the volumn of business. Thus, different vendors get different deals from their suppliers (just as in any other business) The better local jewelry store owner has told me that he cannot even get diamonds for what they can be purchased on the interenet - and he doesn't even try to compete. His is a small store and he has a steady clientell: He is selling service - not price.

Your other comment about internet vendors not stocking stones is also not so correct either.

Those that I consider to be the better Pricescope vendors tend to stock stones - and only list those on their websites. They may be willing to bring in another stone and evaluate it for you - but the ones they list are the ones they have in stock.

Also, many of those vendors are in fact B&M stores - and have the some of the same operating cost as other B&M stores. Yet they manage to compete well on the internet.

You are correct in that other vendors are principally listing a virtual inventory - and that you can find the same stone offered by several vendors for minor pricing variations.

Now are these vendors making about 8%. Perhaps. And I'll take it that one vendor told you that was their profit margine. I have heard different numbers from other vendors. Given that they asked me not to share I will respect their privacy on their profit margine. Let's just say that I do not believe that you can make a genearl statement like you have.

As for me: I'm shopping for more than just price. I want a stone that someone has looked at and said that this passes muster - well beyond things like cut and ratios. You cannot do that with stones in virtual inventories. Pricescope discussions rarely talk about strain and other interesting things that would make a vendor reject a stone for sale.

If you don't know what I'm talking about I suggest you check out the following link (and all of the NiceIce site). www.niceice.com/ and look for the "Don't buy our rejects" page - link is under the "Buyer Beware" section on the lower left.


There are three people I trust to get me a great diamond - without having to worry about strain and potentially troublesome defects: Todd is one of them (and a really great guy). he is no longer active on Pricescope due to the death of his wife a while back (as the oldtimers know) but has continued to operate the store (the other is Rhino at GOG, and Wink at Winfields). There are also other good vendors out there; but these three are my first choice.

Perry

 

[niceguymr]

Perry,

Yes, My statements were very generalized and don't apply 100% of the time to all the vendors. I aggree with you on a few points, and disagree on others...

1) You absolutely CAN get as good or better deal from a local B&M than from an online vendor. Most business owners are not willing to sell at an 8% profit margin however. Do what I did and bring a printout of your PS searches to various dealers. That's what I did and I got an even better deal than online for a stone with the same specs. I bought from a diamond importer/wholesaler (on the 7th floor of the Seybold Building in Miami, FL) who supplies many jewelry stores in South Florida. Judging by his actual physicial inventory, I'm certain that he gets as good or better wholesale prices than most PS vendors. Granted, most people wouldn't get a chance to do business with someone at this level of the diamond food chain however all I did was shop around alot and ask a lot of questions before I finally made the acquainace of this dealer.

2) Some PS vendors are also B&M stores and carry a physical inventory of diamonds. Most PS vendors however share a handfull of wholesalers / suppliers and have a much larger 'virtual inventory' than they do a physical inventory. I know this b/c during my e-ring hunt, Numerous times I was shown via email the same exact computer scanned certificate by several different PS vendors. If you look carefully during a PS search, you'll notice that most of the stones are repeated in the search list b/c each one of them is being offered by anywhere between 5 and 10 online vendors.

3) About the 8%... I was told that by the owner of on of the PS vendors that appears most on PS diamond searches. He was very candid and frank with me about it. He told me (and I'm paraphrasing here...) "We all operate at about the same profit margin of 8%. I'm willing to beat any other PS vendors prices. We don't really worry too much about a few percent discount here or there since most of us dont carry a phsyical inventory. It would just be too expensive to do that."

4) As for me, I didn't just shop for price either. I knew what I wanted and eventually found it locally. Spec for spec it beat PS vendors by about $800. Most importantly, it looked fabulous. That's something that's even more important than what any information a 'report' can provide.

My last point I'd like to make is the following. PS is a great website and a usefull tool for many people. However PS is not the end all be all of diamond business. There is a whole another big world of diamonds out there outside of Priscope. PS vendors and their diamond inventory, both physical and virtual, represent a very small fraction of the total US diamond market. I'm talking almost insignificant. If you live in a major metropolitan city (that has a 'diamond district' like NY, or a Seybold Building like Miami) you'll find that there's so much more out there, and that these local B&M dealers have their own networks, wholesalers, and suppliers, and it almost makes PS seem immaterial by comparison. Then again, most people who shop online don't have the opportunity to shop this way or it is just so inconvenient that buying online makes just good and logical sense. There's absolutely nothign wrong with that.

 

[Dancing Fire]

niceguy

sounds like a good deal. what did you end up buying? any "specs" ?

 

[perry]

NiceGuy:

I believe you missed the main thrust of my post - and your post only validates that.

There are generally two kinds of buyers who come to pricescope. First (and where I fall) are those who are "perfectionist" and are looking for the best diamond they can buy - for a reasonable price. There are a series of vendors here on Pricescope (and a few not on pricescope) who support that kind of sales. In my book Infinity only cuts diamonds to those standards, and NiceIce and Good Old Gold hand carefully evaluate diamonds from general suppliers to meet those standards. Whiteflash may be in that realm as well. And I may have missed a few others.

There can be a lot of difference between two diamonds with the "same" specifications. While these vendors do in fact have access to a lot of diamonds out there. None of them will - to the best of my knowledge - promise to sell you a diamond from the wholesale market without first evaluating it. And all of these vendors do in fact reject diamonds that have "great specifications" all the time. There are many other factors than just "specifications": strain, type and location of internal defects, how close the facets are to the averages (and there can be wide variations here - Most of those "spec" numbers and angles are "averages"), ect, etc.

Then there are the second type of buyers: Those looking for a "good" diamond at the best possible price. It is obvious that is the group you fall into. These people tend to buy from the people with virtual inventories - and compare paper specifications and price. In all honesty, this works well in most cases. There are another series of vendors specifically targeting this market. You will note that their pricing is always lower than the vendors in the first group.

However, if you are one of those that has their diamond break or shatter with a mild hit (or just a severe change in temperature) - then you also have no complaint.

You claim that a vendor who works in a virtual inventory indicates that the average markup is 8%. That may be the case - and I'll accept that. It has no real relevance to the vendors who principally sell only diamonds that they have evaluated and are in stock.

You then indicate that after extensive looking that you found a wholesaler to sell you a diamond with the same "specifications" as some of those other dimaonds for that 8% off. I.e.; that you paid the wholesale price. I can also accept that. I do however find it interesting that you did not buy the same diamond as the internet vendors were selling for less - just a "similar" one: given the wide range of differences that can occur between "similar" spec diamonds - I'm not convinced you got a deal at all. Maybe you did - maybe you didn't. Totally unknown - except that you paid less for it.

At least you have a stone that "looks fabuluous." I just hope that it turns out to be long term durable as well.

What I disagree with is your claim and/or implication that people can "often" or "easily" beet pricescope vendor priceing at a local B&M.

For the first kind of buyer: One who wants to know that their diamond is one of the best - and does not have problems: The overwhelming vast majority B&M's do not even offer that level of service - and usually don't even know what the issues are. They just buy diamonds from wholesalers - they don't have a clue about the issues and wouldn't know how to inspect the stone even if they had the equpment provided to them. I will note that some of these B&M's do sell HOF and 8* and a few other brand names who's diamonds have been screaned for those issues; but, this is not a low cost way to get a diamond.

Thus, unless you find one of the rare B&M's who does in fact operate in this market the first type of buyer is looking for - there is not even an opportunity for you to beat the pricescope pricing. Chances are though - that these people are not going to be much cheaper than the ones who are Pricescope vendors. They certainly will not be cheaper than anyone in the second vendor class. They offer a valuable service - and will get paid for it (and your business in not that important to them).

For the second kind of buyer. I will concede that in the major metropolitan areas that people may be able to find B&M's willing to call in and sell you a specific stone that you found through a Pricescope "low price" diamond search. Or find you one with the same "spec's" for less - and be willing to make less than their normal markup for an isolated sale . But, many people do not live in those areas. In their case - those local B&M's have to pay as much - or more - than you did for the same diamond; and there is no way that they can sell it to you for less - and have to mark it up (often higher than a Virtual inventory internet vendor). I have had more than one store tell me that in fact they cannot get diamonds as cheap from their suppliers as are on the internet - because their volumns are low (and they stick with their suppliers for many other reasons).

Also, I do caution you and anyone. I have dropped in on many a local vendors in many cities to look at diamonds. Most diamonds that these people carry are not so hot (unless they are name brand diamonds). My understanding is that only 5% of diamonds cut meet the standards of "ideal" (which is loosly defined). Truly great looking diamonds - what some of the Pricescope vendors sell - are somewhat rare. The wholesalers also know that those companies (and a few not on Pricescope) will reject all other diamonds - and thus most of the best diamonds are sent first to these vendors (that is how it works).

Finally, I will conced that internet diamonds are just a small part of the diamond world. Last time I checked it was about 5% of the US diamond market.

However, what I think may be a more interesting idea is that I believe that amoung the "super ideal cut - fully evaluated for various problems" diamonds.... That the internet is somewhere betwen 40% and 50% of the US market. There just are not that many of those diamonds out there. The internet has allowed a small group of vendors to get the information to the people looking for those kinds of diamond - and thus capture a large portion of the sales in this area.

Just depends what a person wants.

It also depends on how much time and effort they are willing to spend. Personally, if all I was interested in was just the lowest cost of a "good" diamond - I'd pay the 8% instead of spending all the time and energy (and cost of tools I have purchased). I'd have been far ahead; but, that is not what I want.

In the end; each to their own.

You wanted a good looking diamond at the lowest possible cost - and found a way to beat the pricescope vendor prices. Great.

I want diamonds (and other gemstones) that rise above the "just good" specifications - that have tight averages on all the facets, that do not have strain problems, that do not have potentially troublesome defects, that have performance reports (good idealscope, and other), etc, etc, etc. That's Great too.

There are vendors on Pricescope that serve each market. Great

Also, people can shop elsewhere and report their successes and failures. Great.

You are correct in that Pricescope is a tool. Different people will use it different ways. In general though - it's hard to beat the pricescope vendors - whatever market you are in.

Perry

 

[niceguymr]

Date: 5/21/2006 11:32:36 AM
Author: perry
NiceGuy:

Finally, I will conced that internet diamonds are just a small part of the diamond world. Last time I checked it was about 5% of the US diamond market.

However, what I think may be a more interesting idea is that I believe that amoung the 'super ideal cut - fully evaluated for various problems' diamonds.... That the internet is somewhere betwen 40% and 50% of the US market. There just are not that many of those diamonds out there. The internet has allowed a small group of vendors to get the information to the people looking for those kinds of diamond - and thus capture a large portion of the sales in this area.

Perry,

STOP DRINKING THE KOOL-AID!!!

I'm not sure what your qualifications are, so I have no way of validating the stats you quoted above. I'd be curious to know where you heard/read about internet diamonds being 5% of the market "last time you checked". I'd be impressed if it's from a reputable source OUTSIDE of the internet diamond industry. I don't believe it's even 1%. Secondly, I'd be curious to know what percentage of consumers are in the market for the "super ideal cut - fully evaluated for various problems" diamonds like you are. I would venture to guess that less than 1% of diamond purchasers are looking for these types of diamonds (If you've got a better estimate on these numbers, please share along with your source). If that guess were correct, then the diamond market you're referring to is roughly .05% of the market. That's nearly insignificant. And if that were the case, that would indicate that the overwhelming majority (say at least 99.95%) of consumers looking to purchase a diamond (for whatever reason) fall into the same category you put me, not looking for the "super ideal cut - fully evaluated for various problems", but rather a good diamond at a good price.

I never said though that 8% was too high for internet vendors to make. I only WISH I could shop all day long and pay only an 8% markup on everything I buy. And I never said that PS vendors don't offer good deals. The fact that you think that I was unable to get a better deal outside of PS is laughable though. I did in fact get a better deal than what was offered to me from any PS vendor. It's the specs listed on the cert that will dictate the sale price, and based on the specs on my GIA cert, and compared to specs of even poorer quality on PS, I paid less. I didn't buy a "Super Ideal" stone, nor have I claimed that I did. You don't have to like what I'm telling you. It's simply the fact.

Lastly, you're really reaching far by suggesting that I should be concerned with the durability of my diamond just because I got a better deal than what PS vendors could provide me. What concerns me more is what role you actually have here on PS and why you stand so adimantly behind PS vendors and against B&Ms. That's something I'd really like to know.

Just curious about where you live? I live in Southeast Florida.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 5/20/2006 10:28:11 PM
Author: perry

There are three people I trust to get me a great diamond - without having to worry about strain and potentially troublesome defects: Todd is one of them (and a really great guy). he is no longer active on Pricescope due to the death of his wife a while back (as the oldtimers know) but has continued to operate the store (the other is Rhino at GOG, and Wink at Winfields). There are also other good vendors out there; but these three are my first choice.


Perry

Perry, thank you for the kind words.

Wink

 

[perry]

NiceGuy:

Actually, if you study my postings you will find that I often recommend that people are OK shopping at a good local B&M; that the extra price paid can be a great value. There can be true value in building a relationship with a good local B&M. Almost always these are independents - and not chains. Nor do I care if a person buys an more ordinary diamond versus a super-ideal diamond.

You will also find that I have encouraged people to buy 8*, HOF, and other diamonds from local vendors if that is what they are interested. There is a value in that as well (and that is a minority view on Pricescope).

In reality - I don't give a hoot what you paid or what others pay for your diamond. To each their own. If you love 8* and can afford it - go for it. No problem here. What I care about is that people understand what they are buying - and what they are passing up.

I know what level of service and what level of assurance I am willing to pay for.

Sadly, many people who buy diamonds never know about all the issues and never get to make a fair determination on what they should pay for - what truely would be a good value to them.

As far as your diamond: I hope you never have any problems with it. I have no idea if it has any durabilitly issues. I doubt that you do either. Not something that wholesalers and most vendors take any responsibility on or even look for (otherwise vendors like NiceIce, GOG, and others would not have to spend time evaluating diamonds for those issues). Now either you knew that you were taking that risk when you purchased it; in which case I doubt you would be concerned. If you did not know that you were taking that risk... Don't say that the information was not available - it is here on Pricescope.

One thing though that I learned the hard way over and over in my life: Paying the rock bottom price for something rarely turns out to be a great value - in the end (years later). I have found that so many other things go well in life when I stop focusing on the absolute bottom line - and start focusing on the features - durability - and other factors related to an item.

As far as your claim that only the "specs" on a Cert controls the price. Sorry - that is only the starting point on pricing; it is not the endpoint: To many other factors not on the cert affect value. Thus I have no dispute that you found a diamond with the same cert spec's for less. As I said before - It might even have been a great value.

As far as pricing: Sure, many Pricescope vendors may under the right conditions conceed a little on the price of an item. Nothing new there. However, the concept that the local vendors can routinely meet or beat internet pricing is not true. There overhead structure and often their purchasing abilities does not allow it - and they will go out of business (as some of them are). Can an occasional person get a similar price or a better price. Yes - from some of them (but not all of them - try it in Tiffinies and other high value stores). If I walk in with a printout to some vendors saying I wanted a 1.5 carat H VS1 with a GIA cert with EX, EX (or whatever - I'm not current on what GIA list on their certs these days - and I do not have GIA certed diamonds): I have no doubt that any vendor could do a search and find the lowest cost 1.5 carat stone that matches those specs and order it for you. It may not be as good as a stone as the one in the other internet search due to many other factors that are not considered or reported on the GIA cert. On the other hand - it might be a better one (but I would suspect the former as the price is less - the wholesalers rarely mess up on this - they know what is of value and what is not).

As far as the percentages I qouted: If I recall right the internet being 5% of the US diamond trade came from some national magaizine or a report at a national conference. The 40-50% number came from my personal discussions with some of the major players in that market. Could they be misleading me; perhaps, but unlikely - credibility is everything to these people (and I got the same basic information from several different sources).

As far as my relationship with the pricescope vendors: I have purchased Diamonds from Good Old Gold. Interestingly, only GOG and NiceIce was willing to partake of the search for what I was looking for (and many other vendors - internet and local - had the chance and turned me down). I have purchased appraisial services from AGA (Dave Atlas's company). I am in discussions about purchasing a non-diamond gemstone from Wink Jones (but nothing final).

The list of the others, including local jewelers, would be long.

I don't think I'm drinking cool-aid. I believe that I have a very good idea on how the diamond market works; and what types and levels of pricing and service are out there.

I am just willing to pay for some of those extra services that some of the vendors offer to ensure that I have a truly great gemstone, and one that has no indications of potential problems. To me - that's a great value; especially at the prices I can get from the Pricescope Vendors.

I also believe that most of the pricescope vendors are a great value for most people - and probably a better value than what most people will find elsewhere (I searched the net extensively before finding Pricescope).

Of course, if it is your goal to beat the system on any one factor (yours being price): you can do that.

Your posting on how to do it on this forum - allows others to do the same. Great.

Perry

 

[Dancing Fire]

niceguy

there''s no such thing as "WHOLESALE" at the consumer level. yes...there''re many friend of an uncle who claims they been in the wholesale diamonds business before christ was born,they''re all full of S**T.

there''re plenty of e-bay GIA diamonds at 25% back of Rap that i wouldn''t touch with a 10 foot pole.

 

[niceguymr]

Date: 5/21/2006 9:36:46 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
niceguy

there's no such thing as 'WHOLESALE' at the consumer level. yes...there're many friend of an uncle who claims they been in the wholesale diamonds business before christ was born,they're all full of S**T.

there're plenty of e-bay GIA diamonds at 25% back of Rap that i wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.

DF, Just b/c YOU'RE not resourcefull enough to make the right 'connections' on your own, don't assume others aren't either. Or maybe some people are just luckier than others...

I bought my diamond from somebody very high up the diamond food chain here in South Florida. I'm aware that it was a chance encounter, and your average person would never have the opportunity to deal with someone like this. His office takes up a large portion of the 7th floor of the Seybold Building in Miami. There's no showroom, and for the MOST part, he doesn't deal with individual consumers. He is a B2B, appointment only type of guy. Trust me when I tell you... I wasn't dealing with your 'typical' B&M outfit (allbeit, a physical location and distribution center). The way I was able to make the acquaintance of this importer/wholesaler was b/c I overheard his name mentioned a few times while visiting other independent B&M diamond vendors in town. I took it upon myself to ask around A LOT until I found out who he was and where he was located. I managed to obtain his office number, called up and spoke with him on the phone. Due to the knowledge I acquired from PS and was able to demonstrate to him when discussing diamond specs, he seemed to think I was familar with the industry and treated me as such. Basically, I told him (more or less) exactly what I wanted (with specific reference to various aspects of cut) and what I wanted to pay based on the prices I found using PS. He told me he could acommodate me and gave me an appointment to see him.

I was amazed when I walked into his office (after having gone through 2 doule electronic locked, bullet proof transfer rooms) He had a vault full of diamonds in every shape, carat, color, and cut quality imaginable. I had given him the specs on the diamond I was looking for before showing up and when I got there, he had about 10 different ones for me to pick from, all within about $1K from eachother.. It wasn't easy to decide on one b/c they were all very similar. Since he was very busy, he led me to a small room with a desk and magnifying light as well as a loupe, tweezers, etc... handed me about 10 bindles of diamonds, sat me down, and told me to let him know when I found what I was looking for. Obviously, I wasn't left entirely unattended, but I wasn't being watched by a salesperson either, since he has NO salespeople. While I was sitting there, Brinks showed up to pick up an outgoing shipment of over $2,000,000 in diamonds that were going out to various local businesses. One employee brought over one of the outbound stones for me to see. It was about 10 carats (I was told) and going to sell for $400,000. My stomach dropped as I realized the magnitude of diamonds that were passing before my very eyes. All at once, I'm seeing lots of guns, bags of money and diamonds. It was very surreal. I didn't want to leave this place b/c it was really very cool.

In the end, the 1st price he spouted out to me for the stone I wanted was right around the same as PS prices. I told him I appreciate his time, but this is a personal purchase and he needed to do better for me. He dropped his price another $800 in the blink of an eye and I took it. Plain and simple. He didn't forget to remind me that he sold it to me for the same price he sells to local B&M vendors. So call me lucky or call me savvy. But you can't call me stupid. I made the best of what I had and used it all to get me the best price on the stone I wanted.

BTW... He too will offer me 100% trade in value provided I keep all original receipts, certs, etc... I made friends with this guy and I anticipate make many future jewelry purchases from him in the future. Maybe, one day I'll tell him the actual story of how I cam to know him!

One should know though that I too am in the business of Sales and that sometimes I have to get to people who are very difficult to reach. I have to use creative means often times to meet important people, and I do whatever I need to do to make the sale happen. I employed these same skills when shopping for this diamond. It's definitely nothing too far from having common sense business savvy and reasonably good street smarts.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 5/21/2006 11:25:16 PM
Author: niceguymr

Date: 5/21/2006 9:36:46 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
niceguy

there''s no such thing as ''WHOLESALE'' at the consumer level. yes...there''re many friend of an uncle who claims they been in the wholesale diamonds business before christ was born,they''re all full of S**T.

there''re plenty of e-bay GIA diamonds at 25% back of Rap that i wouldn''t touch with a 10 foot pole.

DF, Just b/c YOU''RE not resourcefull enough to make the right ''connections'' on your own, don''t assume others aren''t either. Or maybe some people are just luckier than others...


In the end, the 1st price he spouted out to me for the stone I wanted was right around the same as PS prices. I told him I appreciate his time, but this is a personal purchase and he needed to do better for me. He dropped his price another $800 in the blink of an eye and I took it. Plain and simple. He didn''t forget to remind me that he sold it to me for the same price he sells to local B&M vendors. So call me lucky or call me savvy. But you can''t call me stupid. I made the best of what I had and used it all to get me the best price on the stone I wanted.

yep....sounds like my uncle the used car salesmen.

and....why would he risk of losing his B&M clients by selling to any Tom,Dick and Harry off the street?

 

[jasontb]

Date: 5/21/2006 11:25:16 PM
Author: niceguymr

So call me lucky or call me savvy.

I''m actually debating betweek ''mark'' and ''vic''

 

[RockDoc]

Mr Nice Guy


Loupe, tweezers and a light....and in the Seybold building.

I''m in South Florida too, but use a lot more equipment than that to evaluate a diamond.

Not that I doubt your take on this person, but I am wondering how you managed to negotiate $ 1600.00 off the original price, if it was competitive in the first place?

Did the stone have a major lab report? AGS / GIA etc.?

Rockdoc

 

[JulieN]

For Rock Doc:

niceguymr's stone
GIA Certified
Shape: Round Brilliant Cut
Size: 1.52 Ct
Color: F
Clarity SI1
Measurements: 7.55 x 7.61 x 4.42
GIA Cut Rating: Very Good
Pollish: Excellent
Summetry Very Good
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None
Girdle: Thin - Medium
Depth: 58.3%
Table: 61%
Crown Ang: 31.5
Pav Ang: 41.2

Price: on the minus side of 9K

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program...

 

[perry]

While the HCA is not a perfect tool - it does give an indication of what diamonds to generally consider looking at and what diamonds to generally avoid.

HCA Analysis of those specifications:

Light Return: VG

Fire: VG

Scintillation: G

Spread: Excellent

HCA Score: 2.4 Very Good - Worth Buying if the price is right.


Now I accept your story that you were able to penetrate to the wholesale level. Most people cannot do that. If this wholesaler does it very often he will be out of business because his clients - the jewelry stores will dump him because he is taking their business away (he has competitors).

If all you were doing was buying a "rock" - I guess you probably did OK.


What interest me is that you went diamond buying without any of the easily gettable consumer tools to at least determine light return. Not that they are perfect - but you would be amazed at what something as simple as an "IdealScope" can show you (or more likely - horrified). Of course, buying an idealscope & light-table etc would have cost you an extra $100 or so.

Of course; many jewelry stores buy diamonds with no more thoughts than that as well - which is why you cannot beat the service that some of the pricescope vendors have in most B&M stores.

No one evaluted the diamond for the other factors that may affect durability and life. An IdealScope or similar is only a start of the testing that can be done on a diamond - and in my opinion shoud be done on a diamond for an engagement ring.

I am wondering: did you have the chance to return the diamond for your money back after an appraisail? Or was it a cash and carry deal with no return (although you did mention a trade-up policy).

Perry

 

[niceguymr]

Date: 5/22/2006 4:09:42 AM
Author: RockDoc
Mr Nice Guy


Loupe, tweezers and a light....and in the Seybold building.

I''m in South Florida too, but use a lot more equipment than that to evaluate a diamond.

Not that I doubt your take on this person, but I am wondering how you managed to negotiate $ 1600.00 off the original price, if it was competitive in the first place?

Did the stone have a major lab report? AGS / GIA etc.?

Rockdoc

I have a way with people. I too am in sales. I convinced a guy that doesn''t deal with consumers in the first place to meet with me. After taking up enough of his time just to buy one single diamond, he probably just wanted me out of his hair... who knows. I''m sure he just gave me the same wholesale price he gives to his vendors. After all, remember that it was b/c of his vendors that I got in touch with him in the first place. A little name dropping never hurts

The little room was almost the size of a closet with a small desk in it with a chair on each side and with a white tear pad on top and some overhead lighting. It looked to me like an evaluation room, but not one to determine grades or appraisals. The desk in the main part of his office had more tools for evaluation like a microscope, scale, a white box-like enclosure to look at the diamonds under different types of light, and something that looked like a colorimeter (but I''m not sure).

The stone is GIA certed, December 29, 2005.

RockDoc, If you''re familiar with the Seybold Building, then you know what I''m talking about. There''s only 3 or 4 offices on the 7th floor. I won''t mention which one, but I''ll tell you that the dealer''s name is David and that there is a large wooden door with a camera and intercom just a few steps from the elevator. They only will see you if you have an appointment.

As for the gentleman who thinks I bought from a used car salesman... What a waste of bandwidth.

 

[niceguymr]

Date: 5/22/2006 7:19:47 AM
Author: perry
While the HCA is not a perfect tool - it does give an indication of what diamonds to generally consider looking at and what diamonds to generally avoid.

HCA Analysis of those specifications:

Light Return: VG

Fire: VG

Scintillation: G

Spread: Excellent

HCA Score: 2.4 Very Good - Worth Buying if the price is right.


Now I accept your story that you were able to penetrate to the wholesale level. Most people cannot do that. If this wholesaler does it very often he will be out of business because his clients - the jewelry stores will dump him because he is taking their business away (he has competitors).

If all you were doing was buying a ''rock'' - I guess you probably did OK.


What interest me is that you went diamond buying without any of the easily gettable consumer tools to at least determine light return. Not that they are perfect - but you would be amazed at what something as simple as an ''IdealScope'' can show you (or more likely - horrified). Of course, buying an idealscope & light-table etc would have cost you an extra $100 or so.

Of course; many jewelry stores buy diamonds with no more thoughts than that as well - which is why you cannot beat the service that some of the pricescope vendors have in most B&M stores.

No one evaluted the diamond for the other factors that may affect durability and life. An IdealScope or similar is only a start of the testing that can be done on a diamond - and in my opinion shoud be done on a diamond for an engagement ring.

I am wondering: did you have the chance to return the diamond for your money back after an appraisail? Or was it a cash and carry deal with no return (although you did mention a trade-up policy).

Perry

Absolutely, although I''m sure the guy wouldn''t have been to happy after wasting his time and him probably not making much money off me in the first place. I immediately went to an independent GIA Graduate Gemologist who conducted an appraisal in my presence. We sat at his desk and he spent over an hour and a half with me and my stone. He had all the necessary tools to confirm that the stone matched up with the cert. I asked him to appraise it at what he thought would be the lowest price I could obtain a replacement from an average jewler, and he said (and put it in writing) $15,500 with the ring. He too didn''t believe me when I told him I paid only $10,800 with the platinum/micropave setting.

Gentlemen... I realize that I''m an inexperienced swimmer in very deep waters when it comes to discussing diamonds here on PS with many of you. I never claimed to have gotten a perfect stone, as I certainly didn''t spend the money to do so. Yes, I''m aware of all the wonderful tools some of you use (idealscope, etc...) to evaluate the quality of diamonds from your perspective. My only point is that spec for spec, I got a great deal. I''m fairly certain that nobody here can find me a 1.52 F SI 1 GIA:VG Culet None Fluor None EX/VG for lower than $9K... No I''ll even stretch it to $10K. (If you''re actually going to try and search, be sure that you don''t go below anything that I have) The diamond looks beautiful. It''s mind clean and eye clean. I''m even happy with the HCA report. The cert speaks for itself. Sure there are better diamonds, but certainly for a lot more money. Why cant anyone just say... "Hey, that''s a great deal" without interjecting some comment like "you get what you pay for" etc...

What I haven''t even really bothered mentioning is that many of the local B&M vendors that I showed my PS search printout to were willing to match the prices for any stones they had with comparable specs. It''s really not hard to imagine or understand why they would do that. Sure, they''d make less money from me than normal, but it''s not like they don''t have any other customers.

 

[denverappraiser]

Niceguy,

I absolutely agree with you that advertising with PS doesn’t, in and of itself, make a dealer better than one who doesn’t, that there are many fine jewelers who don’t participate here and that it is possible to make a good deal and get a terrific diamond atany number of non-internet dealers. Meeting or beating PS deals is definitely possible.

I’m thrilled that you got a good deal and by all means feel free to endorse the dealer that made you so happy so that others can benefit by your epxerience but I do think that ‘wholesalers’ are an area that consumers should watch out for. There are a lot of sharks out there. A huge fraction of the diamond dealers in the US describe themselves as wholesalers, many operate out of offices that look very much like the one you describe where there is little or no display, a small number of workers who talk a pretty good line, and who will be happy to sell to anyone with money.

Selling products one at a time to the end consumer is selling at retail. There’s nothing wrong with this, but if they’re doing it and they deny it, that’s lying. If they tell their wholesale clients that they are getting a discount when, in fact, they aren’t, that’s lying. If they tell one set of customers that they sell only to dealers and then knowingly sell to a consumer, that's lying. Surely you will agree that this is a bad start for a trust-based transaction. That’s strike one.

If they say that there’s nothing important about a diamond beyond what appears on a GIA report, they are either lying or stupid, take your pick. Either way, that’s strike two.

If the evidence of ‘wholesale prices’ is to show you transactions with their dealer clients, then they have grossly violated the privacy of their other clients and I would recommend against dealing with them since willingness to undermine their other clients interests does not bode well about how you can expect them to handle your own. Even at this you have some pretty suspect data because you don’t know the details of either the deal or the relationship between the participants.

If the evidence is a copy of Rap or one of their various competitors, why do you believe that this is ‘wholesale’? Rap flatly says that these aren’t the prices dealers will normally pay. Rap says that the discounts and add-ons will vary dramatically from stone to stone and from deal to deal. What then have you learned about your particular stone or deal by looking at Rap?

There are good dealers and good deals out there but a claim of ‘wholesale’ is no more evidence of one than a claim of ‘new and improved’ is evidence of better products at the grocery. The wolves ALL claim to be sheep and it’s sometimes quite difficult to tell the difference until after you’ve been eaten.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver