wholesale prices

[jasontb]

Date: 5/22/2006 9:59:25 AM
Author: niceguymr

Why cant anyone just say... ''Hey, that''s a great deal'' without interjecting some comment like ''you get what you pay for'' etc...

What I haven''t even really bothered mentioning is that many of the local B&M vendors that I showed my PS search printout to were willing to match the prices for any stones they had with comparable specs.

1) Because you do get what you pay for. You think you outfoxed this man at his own game?

2) Say you want a blue car with 4WD and leather seats. BMW dealer wants $45k for it. You think it''s crazy. So you come to me. I tell you I can get you a blue car with 4WD and leather seats for much less. I go pick up a new Dodge Caliber for $20k, sell it to you for $30k, and you think you just got the deal of the century.

Reson people won''t let it go is because for almost every single person who comes to PS, trying to buy a diamond using your method would be a disaster. Maybe you did great. But nobody is going to allow the newbies to think it''s a good idea.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 5/22/2006 9:59:25 AM
Author: niceguymr




Gentlemen... I realize that I'm an inexperienced swimmer in very deep waters when it comes to discussing diamonds here on PS with many of you. I never claimed to have gotten a perfect stone, as I certainly didn't spend the money to do so. Yes, I'm aware of all the wonderful tools some of you use (idealscope, etc...) to evaluate the quality of diamonds from your perspective. My only point is that spec for spec, I got a great deal. I'm fairly certain that nobody here can find me a 1.52 F SI 1 GIA:VG Culet None Fluor None EX/VG for lower than $9K... No I'll even stretch it to $10K. (If you're actually going to try and search, be sure that you don't go below anything that I have) The diamond looks beautiful. It's mind clean and eye clean. I'm even happy with the HCA report. The cert speaks for itself. Sure there are better diamonds, but certainly for a lot more money. Why cant anyone just say... 'Hey, that's a great deal' without interjecting some comment like 'you get what you pay for' etc...

because its true.....you got what you pay for

and don't feel sorry for your "wholesaler" b/c you didn't rip him off. most PS vendors wouldn't have this type of cut inhouse.

btw; sorry i'm wasting more bandwidth.

 

[niceguymr]

Date: 5/22/2006 11:59:11 AM
Author: denverappraiser

If the evidence is a copy of Rap or one of their various competitors, why do you believe that this is ‘wholesale’? Rap flatly says that these aren’t the prices dealers will normally pay. Rap says that the discounts and add-ons will vary dramatically from stone to stone and from deal to deal. What then have you learned about your particular stone or deal by looking at Rap?

You're right. I have no way of proving that I paid wholesale. It's only a coincidence that the price I paid was approximately lower by the amount of margin that a PS vendor makes on a comparable diamond. Also, never did this guy wip out a Rap Report.

This argument is obviously futile and nobody here on PS will ever be happy knowing that someone can hunt around and talk their way into a good deal. It's amusing to see how NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON believes that you can get a better deal than through a PS vendor. That is some powefull brainwashing. Enjoy the Kool-Aid everyone. I give up!

 

[madmarlin]

This thread has become a bit amusing. It reminds me a bit of one with Mattatora and her WF experience. Let me begin by saying that I find PS to be an invaluable tool in learning about diamonds. Before I came here, I thought cut meant round or square. Go figure. I learned a lot and ended up buying my wife a great new stone for our 10th from Mark at ERD. Last year, I bought a tennis bracelet from him. He is a great guy who does great work and has a tremendous eye for stones. I'd buy from him again in a heartbeat and will recommend him to anyone who will listen. And I found him on PS.

That said, I don't understand the muted hostility towards Niceguy. What does it matter where he bought his stone? Why do some feel the need to question the deal or the person from whom he bought or the quality of the stone? He researched here and found a stone he says is similar to the ones he found via PS online vendors and paid a bit less for it than he would have via those same vendors. Does it really matter? It doesn't surprise me that he could possibly beat an online price. Even those guys have costs to cover. At the end of the day, he got what he wanted and at a price he liked. And that was partially due to what he learned here on PS. Great job!

Also, how do you think hondo17 feels right about now? His question has sparked a tangent that has left him lost in the shuffle.

Let's try and keep PS what it is supposed to be; a consumer information site and an open forum for learning. Let's not make it a vendor cheerleading site and question anyone who does something different......unless, of course, they buy from Zales

 

[Mara]

mad marlin, this thread is much more amusing ... that other one was just tedious!!

that said, niceguy, kudos on your purchase!! i actually am not a fan of any type of kool-aid....and i do think that you can get a great deal going offline from PS if you are savvy and it seems you are. you were able to get a great price, got it checked out by an appraiser and were happy with the results. what else is there to really know?

i know that some offline jewelers WILL match PS or online pricing, we have heard that on here before. some people just want to buy with online vendors (i am one of those people) but it doesn''t mean that great deals offline can''t be had. we all know that it just depends on the vendor you are dealing with and the person buying the stone. every person''s buying experience is different.

so anyway, i didn''t even bother reading the other responses on page 1 because they were SO DARN LONG, but i saw what you said here and i just wanted to chime in and say regardless of where you buy, a great deal is a great deal and if you got it checked out by someone reputable and were happy with the results, that''s all that matters.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 5/22/2006 11:59:11 AM
Author: denverappraiser



I absolutely agree with you that advertising with PS doesn’t, in and of itself, make a dealer better than one who doesn’t, that there are many fine jewelers who don’t participate here and that it is possible to make a good deal and get a terrific diamond at any number of non-internet dealers. Meeting or beating PS deals is definitely possible.

It's amusing to see how NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON believes that you can get a better deal than through a PS vendor. That is some powefull brainwashing. Enjoy the Kool-Aid everyone. I give up!

It's nice to hear that we can be entertaining. I would just ignore the obvious discrepancy but you quoted me in your response that contains the above line. How could I have been more clear?

Rap and it's usefulness to consumers as a way or recognizing a good price was the original subject of this thread and was the conversation I was having. Apparently you want to discuss to Kool-aid.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[madmarlin]

style="WIDTH: 99%; HEIGHT: 49px">Date: 5/22/2006 3:06:27 PM
Author: Mara
mad marlin, this thread is much more amusing ... that other one was just tedious!!

Tedious......that''s one word for it! I almost replied once to that thread, but by then it had moved off the first page of topics and I didn''t want to bring it back to the front, lest I be subjected to 20 lashes with a wet noodle!

In any event, there are so many people here with a wealth of knowledge who can truly help people like myself who would otherwise be thrown to the wolves of the diamond world. It just bothers me to see bickering start for any reason on this site. Granted, its unreasonable to expect it to not happen, but a person can dream, can''t he?

All the best to you.

 

[diagem]

How many vendors work here through PS?

 

[niceguymr]

Date: 5/22/2006 2:57:39 PM
Author: madmarlin

That said, I don''t understand the muted hostility towards Niceguy. What does it matter where he bought his stone? Why do some feel the need to question the deal or the person from whom he bought or the quality of the stone? He researched here and found a stone he says is similar to the ones he found via PS online vendors and paid a bit less for it than he would have via those same vendors. Does it really matter? It doesn''t surprise me that he could possibly beat an online price. Even those guys have costs to cover. At the end of the day, he got what he wanted and at a price he liked. And that was partially due to what he learned here on PS. Great job!

Also, how do you think hondo17 feels right about now? His question has sparked a tangent that has left him lost in the shuffle.

Let''s try and keep PS what it is supposed to be; a consumer information site and an open forum for learning. Let''s not make it a vendor cheerleading site and question anyone who does something different......unless, of course, they buy from Zales

Please do not try to bring any objectivity, logic, or common sense to this interweb discussion.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

So you bought a 1.52 F SI1 at 32% less than Rap.

Not bad... Quite a bit less than what I would expect a consumer to be able to purchase at. Actually, it's even a few percent lower than what I would expect the average dealer to be able to purchase this type of stone for.

To put things in perspective though, here are some of the characteristics which put the stone at this price level:

1. The slightly shallow depth (58.3%). To the plus though, this creates a 1/10th mm larger diameter "spread" of ~ 7.58 mm versus ~7.47 mm of an ideal "spread".

2. The shallow crown angle of 31.5', which creates a thinner crown, probably in the 11.9% neighborhood, with a larger table (61.0%). This results in a stone which majors in white light return (brilliance) while minoring in colored light return (fire).

Some people tend to like a more brilliant stone over a more firey stone, so this is not necessarily a negative, more a matter of personal choice. Europeans, for example, seem to have preferred this combination for quite a while, although of late there seems to be somewhat of a emphasis going towards the "fire" side of the equation.

3. The deep pavilion angle of 41.2', creates a correspondingly fairly deep pavilion measuring probably in the 43.7% neighborhood. Although the reflection pattern created by this combination is larger and more spread out in comparison with more ideal cut stones, it actually compensates quite well with the shallow crown angle to create the very good white light return mentioned above.

4. Along with this light return "personality" comes a diminishment of the "contrast pattern" (light-dark-light-dark scintillation). Not an upsetting diminishment, but more along the lines of a "good to very good" contrast pattern versus a "very good" contrast pattern.

5. A second tier "fine make" stone, characterized by the GIA as a "very good" make, while it would fall more in the "good to very good" make category under a more strict grading system, such as the AGS

6. Some of the unknowns are whether the diamond is a "high F" color and a "high SI1" clarity, versus a "low (borderline) F color", and a "low (borderline) SI1". Did the appraiser give you any indication in this regards?

All that aside though, it appears that you essentially got the market level diamond you paid for, probably at a very good price and possibly at an excellent price.

Congratulations.

 

[lizz]

Nice Guy, I find your diamond-buying story utterly fascinating. I think the diamond industry is so interesting, and I have read about such things in diamond fiction stories. I am not going to brainwash you about PS vendors. I think it''s great you got a great stone at a great price (with a great story to boot!).

I buy diamonds from our favorite B&M store (which is competitive with internet prices, otherwise we''d never buy there). I have bought one diamond online, but not from a PS vendor. Despite the fact that this is supposed to be a consumer-information site, I do often feel that mention of a non-PS vendor meets with criticism or indifference. The reason why I left the OTHER diamond forum is because I felt that no one could say anything unless it was a positive about one of their vendors.

 

[niceguymr]

Date: 5/22/2006 7:03:54 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
So you bought a 1.52 F SI1 at 32% less than Rap.

Not bad... Quite a bit less than what I would expect a consumer to be able to purchase at. Actually, it's even a few percent lower than what I would expect the average dealer to be able to purchase this type of stone for.

...

6. Some of the unknowns are whether the diamond is a 'high F' color and a 'high SI1' clarity, versus a 'low (borderline) F color', and a 'low (borderline) SI1'. Did the appraiser give you any indication in this regards?

All that aside though, it appears that you essentially got the market level diamond you paid for, probably at a very good price and possibly at an excellent price.

Thanks for your analysis. I enjoyed reading it. I highlighted a few points that seem to contradict themselves though. Perhaps you can elaborate on which one is correct?

As far as the color grading...

I didn't let the appraiser see my GIA cert until after he completed the appraisal. Also, keep in mind that I had the ring set in the office next door to where I bought the diamond at the time of purchase b/c I was able to get a great deal on it and I really didn't want to go somewhere else where they may try to jack me on the setting since I didn't get the centerstone from them. Therefore, I brought the diamond already mounted in the setting to the appraiser, which just made assessing some of the characteristics like depth and color just a tad more complicated.

He was dead on with everything on the cert except he was off on the measurements by a few hundredths of a millimeter. The appraiser had a set of GIA 'grading stones' marked E, G, I, etc. Although he didn't have an "F" stone, it was evident that my diamond was between the "E" and the "G", however closer to the "E" than the "G". It was a little challenging though with the diamond already set, so he had to hold it with a contraption (one of those little jaw clips) between the other 2 stones in this little white box. As he looked it over, he stated that he believed it was no darker than an "F" but possibly an "E". I told him I'd let him see the GIA cert after he completed the rest of the appraisal. Upon review the cert, he concurred with the "F" rating which I was fine with since I got to see how he graded it for myself, and since he obviously didn't have the same equipment as the GIA uses.

As far as the clarity rating goes... It is the most eye clean SI1 that I saw and one of the main reasons I went with this stone over other possible choices. The cert lists only 2 flaws, a 'crystal' and a 'needle' and both of them are beneath the outer edges of the table. When he showed me his GIA charts comparing the different clarity ratings, it was clear (no pun intended) that my stone was just shy of being a VS2. It is pretty tough to find the 'flaws' even with the 10x loupe, but I'm not expert. I'm just going by my own comparision of several dozen SI1s that I had seen in the last month prior to making my purchase.

People... I know this isn't the BEST cut stone, and to many of you doesn't come close, but according to the GIA, it's VERY GOOD. And with it's brilliance and fire that I've personally observed, coupled with the top view dimensions of a stone 10 to 20 points higher in carat weight, I'm very pleased. Nobody walks around with a lab report printout about their diamond to show people. This thing is just plain beautifull and I sincerely doubt that most of you would find it an inferior stone upon visual inspection with the naked eye, and no use of any fancy scopes or tests.

Enough talk and criticism about my stone which has been beet to death and I'm tired of defending. It's not even the topic of this thread, yet people want to keep drawing into the discussion. Here's a picture of it. Enjoy!~

BTW... Those are tiny dust particles on the surface of the stone that you see reflecting on the diamond in some of the pictures... just like the dust particles that can be seen around the ring on it's display.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Pretty stone, NiceGuy.

In an effort of comparing apples with apples rather than apples with oranges I was pointing out that your stone falls in a different market level category than that sold by many of the Pricescope vendors. Cut determines the difference in value between like graded stones.

In other words, your diamond is in a different category than say an ideal make or premium make or first level fine make stone. There's nothing wrong with that, and diamonds in that category can be quite beautiful, as yours appears to be.

And within that category, it appears you got a very good, possibly an excellent deal for that category of make. But the primary reason for the deep discount is the make.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 5/21/2006 9:50:26 AM
Author: niceguymr

PS vendors and their diamond inventory, both physical and virtual, represent a very small fraction of the total US diamond market. I'm talking almost insignificant. If you live in a major metropolitan city (that has a 'diamond district' like NY, or a Seybold Building like Miami) you'll find that there's so much more out there, and that these local dealers have their own networks, wholesalers, and suppliers, and it almost makes PS seem immaterial by comparison.

I'm quite familiar with both the NY & Miami diamond districts, and I have to say I think you are underestimating the number and resources of vendors who frequent Pricescope. Not to mention their superior understanding of fine make along with the professionalism to extensively help clients in the selection process.

Far from being too busy to work hands on with a client (putting them in a room to go through "bindles" of stones with no assistance, the client having to rely on their own limited experience and untrained eye), the typical Pricescope vendor supplies a plethora of documentation, measurements, optical analysis, detailed photos under magnification, and professional assistance.

This mode of service has had a significant effect on the entire industry. Dealers worldwide are rushing to "keep up" with the internet diamond revolution, which Pricescope is at the forefront of. Even the cutting of diamonds has been significantly influenced worldwide by the influence of Pricescope vendors expert in cut quality. Many Indian diamond cutters are now using Idealscopes (invented by a Pricescope vendor) in guiding their cutting, and the AGS extensively used the DiamCalc software (invented by another Pricescope contributor) in arriving at their new cut grade system, just to mention a few examples.

"Immaterial?". Hardly.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Mr. Nice Guy,

My original diamond probably has a similar cut (or not even as good) to yours and I still get compliments on it (last week when I got my nails done was the last time, as a matter of fact). I sort of had to laugh to myself, because here I am on this ideal diamond hunt and the average person thinks my current stone is just great! So I think your ring is beautiful and certainly would make most women really happy (and I know you are only concerned about ONE!)

But what I need to say here is that I do care about the price or I wouldn''t be here learning about diamonds and prices. I''d love to buy wholesale. I wish I could access it. But I live in a small town and just don''t have access. The main reason I will buy from a PS vendor is that I have read thousands of posts, some good and some bad, and I know basically a few that I''d trust to sell me a great diamond at a decent price. On Saturday I priced a Hearts on Fire 1.32 G VS1 at $19,775 and a similar stone from a PS vendor would be somewhere around $11,000. I won''t even go into the prices I saw at Tiffany! So I am pretty happy paying the vendors here the 8% or so to get an ideal cut diamond. (But I''ll have to add that Wink has a premium cut that tugs at me still!).

The one thing I envy is that you were able to view many diamonds at one time. In my case, I''ll have to let the vendor be my eyes and do the picking if I have two or more to choose from. They have great equipment to analyze it, and then I''ll have to see it myself and decide to keep it or send it back. It''s a little trouble doing it that way, but my local jewler couldn''t come up with comparable stones to the ones I find here.

 

[elmo]

Good posts Rich.

To go from "very good" quality to "best" quality with many things, there is often a pretty steep premium, that to the uninitiated seems downright silly e.g. why would I spend $160 for 2001 Ch. Latour when 2001 Mondavi Reserve Cab costs $80, or top South American cab costs $30?

The value proposition here has been that best-quality often costs about the same as very good quality or worse at a local venue. The choice becomes tougher though when very good is 30-40 back from list and best is 10 over. I have a tough time with that myself.

 

[fire&ice]

From someone who makes her living in the moment of being able to NOT get what I pay for, you don''t always get what you pay for. What is so hard about that concept on here? If you are a savy shopper, bargins are always out there.

I remember this guy''s thread. He knew what he was buying. And, it was a lot of bang for the buck. Sometimes that is important. Sometimes it''s not. He is perfectly aware that it is not a fine make stone. A super douper louper ideal isn''t on everyone''s agenda. And, as Rich pointed out - the sintilation factor isn''t great - but the white light is really good - SOME MAY PREFER that. Personally, I think such light return gives the illusion of a whiter stone, which some people may prefer. Heck, I''m thrilled to pieces that stronger blue fluor stones trade for less. I PREFER THEM! Caprise? (spelling?)

As for mark up, at the end of the day, it''s really irrelavent. You want to pay a fair price for what you are getting. I''d buy the same stone if someone bought it from an attorney handling the estate pennies on the dollar as I would from a guy who paid full wholesale. It''s the stone. Not the markup.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 5/23/2006 12:14:53 PM
Author: elmo
Good posts Rich.

The value proposition here has been that best-quality often costs about the same as very good quality or worse at a local venue. The choice becomes tougher though when very good is 30-40 back from list and best is 10 over. I have a tough time with that myself.

Precisely - because you now have to take into account the marginal difference between the two stones in terms of what you can see -which has always been my mantra on here.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

People... I know this isn''t the BEST cut stone, and to many of you doesn''t come close, but according to the GIA, it''s VERY GOOD. And with it''s brilliance and fire that I''ve personally observed, coupled with the top view dimensions of a stone 10 to 20 points higher in carat weight, I''m very pleased. Nobody walks around with a lab report printout about their diamond to show people. This thing is just plain beautifull and I sincerely doubt that most of you would find it an inferior stone upon visual inspection with the naked eye, and no use of any fancy scopes or tests.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Niceguy,

Well stated.

If you''re happy..that''s all that matters

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[perry]

I finally had a chance to review this thread:

I feel that some things have been misrepresented:


NiceGuy stated on May 22:

This argument is obviously futile and nobody here on PS will ever be happy knowing that someone can hunt around and talk their way into a good deal. It''s amusing to see how NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON believes that you can get a better deal than through a PS vendor. That is some powefull brainwashing. Enjoy the Kool-Aid everyone. I give up!


That is not true: I have never said that - and openly admitted that it was possible... but I admit that it does make great theatrics.

The closest that can be extracted from my initial post in reply to NiceGuys posts on how Pricescope Vendors work and their profit (which I felt only addressed the virtual vendors) is the following from May 20:

Perry (May 20): I am not so sure that your numbers are necessarly right - or that you can necessarily get the same stone for less from a B&M. I will concede that you can often get a similar but cheaper stone from a B&M.

That is not an absolute statement - but I will admit that it expressed doubt. With more explanaitions from NiceGuy that was followed with the following statements (extracted from several post):

Perry (May 21): You then indicate that after extensive looking that you found a wholesaler to sell you a diamond with the same "specifications" as some of those other dimaonds for that 8% off. I.e.; that you paid the wholesale price. I can also accept that.


Same post as above comment: You wanted a good looking diamond at the lowest possible cost - and found a way to beat the pricescope vendor prices. Great.



I have always conceded it was possible that a person could beat a Pricescope vendor. You have the personality and knowlede to do so - to penetrate to the wholesale level- that is great for you.

However, my concern is best summed up by the following statement:

Perry (May 22): What I disagree with is your claim and/or implication that people can "often" or "easily" beet pricescope vendor priceing at a local B&M.

I still stand by that statement - as I think several others have also supported it. The average person does not have your skills and personality. For the same quality and size of a stone - the chances of the average person beating the pricescope vendor at a local B&M is low.


With appologies to Neil (DenverAppraiser): I am the person that was first told to "Stop Drining the kool-aid" (NiceGuy May 21).

This was in direct response to my post about the size of the internet diamond market.

For the record - one of the Pricescopers who has my email address sent me the following:

2005 Diamond Sales (% share of market): Internet - 3.5%

The same source projected that by 2010 that it would reach 7.7%

Note that this is a current (May 2006) data and projection.

Here is the link to this article.

www.emarketer.com/Article.aspx?1003969


There have been other articles from other sources. The article I remember may have been projections for this year, or projections for engagment rings.

I cannot provide such supporting evidence for the "super ideal" market. But those who are dealing with the best of the best - do know.


Finally, I will say this:

NiceGuy, you have yourself a reasonably nice diamond - which is what you wanted - at a fair price. I have no objection to what kind of diamond you wanted to buy. You also did a good thing by having an appraiser check it out (many people shopping for the best price deals will not do that). You have the personality and skills to be able to get price deals that most people do not. Great for you.

Anyone else with the right personality and skills can find this thread and do the same. I wish them the best as well.

Peace

As for the rest of the folks: Have a great day !

Perry