Which considered to be better EGL or IGL

[m3csl]

Which considered to be a better place for giving diamond certificates - EGL or IGL ?

 

[LibbyLA]

You're better off with GIA or AGS.

 

[bcavitt]

Ditto what Libby says!

Bryan Cavitt

 

[oldminer]

In the USa and in most places around the world GIA is the lab that is universally recognized. Domestically, we find AGSL reports are popular with fine cut stones that AGS has a grading system established for their specific shape. Diamond dealers want to discount AGS reports a bit when buying because they are not totally certain how GIA may re-grade such stones. The same thing happens with EGL and othre lab graded stones, dealers are a cautious group and have made a mass decision to use GIA as the gold standard.

In India, we found IGI had a commanding lead in domestic grading there. They have a very popular educational program and a well respected lab in several cities. Again, what is accepted here varies in other places.

Once you go away from GIA or AGS, all bets are off as to how they will match a GIA grade. If you don't know the GIA grade, what can you do to compare one stone to another, or make a choice based on "value"? Not much at all.

 

[m3csl]

After my wife having her engagement ring for a year now , I took a look at it last month and found a brown mark in it (like an inside "scratch") . asking my wife , she said its been there from the beggining.
The diamond was graded by the store at a clarity level of VS2 and this flaw can clearly be seen by naked eye without any magnification.
Since it is quite small (0.24 carat) when i bought it I only got a certificate from the store.
Going to the store they didnt want to acknowledge the diamond is less than a VS2 and continue cliaming their certificate is valid.
So I took it fir IGL (a friend who is a gemmologist told me IGL considered to be better than EGL).
IGL inspected the ring and at their certificate it said the diamond is SI1 (and not VS2).
In addition they wrote its a 0.23 carat (is that any significant comparing to 0.24 or can be in the measuring error ?)

What do you guys say ?

 

[denverappraiser]

I'm going to guess from your description that you aren't buying it and you aren't selling it. That makes this an academic question and possibly one about what it will be replaced with if you have a loss, right?

I'm going to further guess that you've already got EGL paperwork that calls it a 0.24 VS2 that you're questioning. Why? It's probably true that it wasn't graded to the same standards as if it had been submitted to GIA but it is what it is. It's a rock. Whether the lab calls it a VS2 or an SI1 doesn't change anything about it.

 

[m3csl]

Actually what I wanted to ask is can I sue this store or I dont have a case here because they can claim that their diamond evaluation is correct, and the diamond can have different grades at each different lab.
Further more,can they clame the IGL certificate is not acceptable by them ? after all, a lab service like IGL should have much accurate results than a store , right ?

 

[rubybeth]

Actually what I wanted to ask is can I sue this store or I dont have a case here because they can claim that their diamond evaluation is correct, and the diamond can have different grades at each different lab.
Further more,can they clame the IGL certificate is not acceptable by them ? after all, a lab service like IGL should have much accurate results than a store , right ?

I don't think you will find much support for attempting to take legal action for this. It is a year or more since you purchased the item, probably well out of any return period, and you probably did not purchase it with the contingency that it had been correctly graded by an agreed-upon appraiser. I'm not even sure what you would be suing them for. Their subjective grading didn't match some other subjective grading? Diamond grading is subject to interpretation of grading scales for color, clarity, etc. and human error.

 

[Amys Bling]

Grading is up to human error- so I don't think you have much of a case unless you had a contract saying their grading would hold up to IGI grading.

 

[m3csl]

Diamond grading is subject to interpretation of grading scales for color, clarity, etc. and human error.

In this case it sounds like any store can sell lower grade diamonds and claim they are better than what they are ?

Can't I claim that a lab service grading abilities is much precise than a gemmologist at a store ?

 

[Dreamer_D]

Diamond grading is subject to interpretation of grading scales for color, clarity, etc. and human error.

In this case it sounds like any store can sell lower grade diamonds and claim they are better than what they are ?

Can't I claim that a lab service grading abilities is much precise than a gemmologist at a store ?

You did not buy a diamond that was an IGL or EGL VS2. You bought a diamond that was an [insert store name] VS2. Their opinion is that it is a VS2 stone, and without a lab report at the time of purchase, that is all that matters, unfortunately. The diamond is what it is, it is not inherently an SI1 or a VS2 or anything else, so there is not much you can do to argue fraud IMO. That is the danger/risk to consumers buying diamonds without paperwork from a reputable lab. Perhaps had you gone back within a week with this information you would have been able to avail yourself of the stores return policy. But after one year, it seems to be that the deal is done.

Actually, one clarity grade is within the realm of acceptable variation, especially at that carat weight where it has less of an impact on value (my opinion there) than it might in a 4 ct diamond, even if the diamond had a GIA report.

Now, had the stone turned out not the be a diamond, or had it turned out to be clarity enhanced or someting substantive like that, when it was sold to you as being a natural unenhanced stone and you have paperwork to that effect, perhaps in that case you would have a leg to stand on.

Also, one point in weight is not meaningful variation, scales vary. That is about the weight of a spec of dust.

 

[kenny]

Getting a bee sting on the right arm is just as unfortunate as on the left arm.

Stick with AGS/GIA stones.
You can believe their grade.

Diamonds graded by AGS/GIA are not more expensive; you are just not being lied to by an unethical lab.

 

[Christina...]

Diamond grading is subject to interpretation of grading scales for color, clarity, etc. and human error.

In this case it sounds like any store can sell lower grade diamonds and claim they are better than what they are ?

Can't I claim that a lab service grading abilities is much precise than a gemmologist at a store ?

You did not buy a diamond that was an IGL or EGL VS2. You bought a diamond that was an [insert store name] VS2. Their opinion is that it is a VS2 stone, and without a lab report at the time of purchase, that is all that matters, unfortunately. The diamond is what it is, it is not inherently an SI1 or a VS2 or anything else, so there is not much you can do to argue fraud IMO. That is the danger/risk to consumers buying diamonds without paperwork from a reputable lab. Perhaps had you gone back within a week with this information you would have been able to avail yourself of the stores return policy. But after one year, it seems to be that the deal is done.

Actually, one clarity grade is within the realm of acceptable variation, especially at that carat weight where it has less of an impact on value (my opinion there) than it might in a 4 ct diamond, even if the diamond had a GIA report.

Now, had the stone turned out not the be a diamond, or had it turned out to be clarity enhanced or someting substantive like that, when it was sold to you as being a natural unenhanced stone and you have paperwork to that effect, perhaps in that case you would have a leg to stand on.

Also, one point in weight is not meaningful variation, scales vary. That is about the weight of a spec of dust.

Absolutely agree. Grading is based on the person grading the stones opinion only. If you were to submit the stone to another lab, you may receive yet another different opinion of the stone. As DD mentioned above, this is why it's so important to have a grading report from a lab that has a reputation for being consistent. That being said, even a stone with a GIA report stating that it is a H VS1, could be regraded by the same lab years later and receive a different color and or clarity grade.

I think in this case the fact that another labs opinion of the stone was only 1 clarity grade and 1pt off is indicative of the honesty of the gemologist at the store where you purchased the stone. There are many out there that are much further off.

It appears that your wife feels that her stone is beautiful and I'm sure that it holds a lot of sentiment to her, in my opinion it would be a shame to tarnish this by pursuing a dispute with the jeweler.

ETA I'm assuming that the IGI people evaluated your stone in it's setting, it's harder to measure a stone this way, so this may also be why there was a 1pt difference in size.

 

[m3csl]

After reading all the answers to my questions (thank you all for the help) I find that the entire industry is missing standardization.
How can it be that "Grading is based on the person grading the stones opinion only" ?
According to that I can buy a diamond in one store, which grade it is a D VVS1 while checking the dimaond in another place might grade it as a much lower quality diamond.
How can an entire industry manage itself without acceptable standards ?
As an engineer in my profession I find it realt hard to understand.
In addition this also leaves a lot of room for mistakes and fraudes.

 

[LizH]

Hi M3csl, this was my conclusion too which urged me to do further investigation and research on diamonds over the years. You've had an unfortunate experience, sorry to hear your story. The diamond industry has different demands depending on which market it is servicing and it is my belief that as more and more people come to the same realizations that you've made, the industry will be forced to develop higher acceptable standards. Best of luck.

 

[Ravinmad]

Diamonds come from a vast number of souces, go thru hundreds of different dealers, to thousands of cutters in several to a dozen or more major locations around the world.

Ethics and standards vary. AGS/GIA try their best to give a standard or as oldminer stated the "Gold Standard" by which diamonds should be graded.

But lets face facts, like alot of products if someone can make a few extra bucks chances are they will do what it takes to get them. Stretch the truth? definately, ....oh, of course this SUV gets 27mph on the highway. (going down hill, with the interior stripped clean and a 80lb test driver) when in reality it gets maybe 20-21.

 

[denverappraiser]

After reading all the answers to my questions (thank you all for the help) I find that the entire industry is missing standardization.
How can it be that "Grading is based on the person grading the stones opinion only" ?
According to that I can buy a diamond in one store, which grade it is a D VVS1 while checking the dimaond in another place might grade it as a much lower quality diamond.
How can an entire industry manage itself without acceptable standards ?
As an engineer in my profession I find it realt hard to understand.
In addition this also leaves a lot of room for mistakes and fraudes.

This is basically true, but the EXPECTATION of standards is much of the problem. What you’re hoping for is simply not possible. You’re thinking it should be a scale like grams that can be easily quantified when really it’s more like hotel or restaurant stars.

A ‘four star’ hotel is what it is regardless of what some inspector called it and they can call themselves whatever they like. They are welcome to describe themselves as 7 stars if they want or they can find someone else to do it for a fee. Who cares? A Michelin four star, on the other hand, meets the standards of the Michelin folks and that, presumably, makes it useful information. Now we’re talking about holding Michelin to a standard, not just the hotel but I point out that they made up their own standard and they are the only people who use it. We care how many stars they give and we care what Michelin’s opinion is because we think their scale and methodology have merit. Without that there is nothing. Taken in isolation and without the source, knowing that a hotel is 'three stars' is useless and quite possibly misleading data, but it's not the hotel's fault (probably), it's not even the fault of the inspector (probably) and it's certainly not the fault of the entire hotel industry. It's the fault of the travel agent who sold you the deal and who supported your expectatations on what that 'three stars' grade meant.

 

[John P]

Curious: Who is IGL ?

Diamonds in the 0.25ct range are frequently selected and graded by hand in-store, since the cost of a lab report may be impractical. It's unfortunate to have an eye-visible inclusion in any VS, particularly at that size, but it apparently fell within their standards.

Does the store offer a long-term trade-up or buyback option? Have you spoken with them?

After reading all the answers to my questions (thank you all for the help) I find that the entire industry is missing standardization.
How can it be that "Grading is based on the person grading the stones opinion only" ?
According to that I can buy a diamond in one store, which grade it is a D VVS1 while checking the dimaond in another place might grade it as a much lower quality diamond.
How can an entire industry manage itself without acceptable standards ?
As an engineer in my profession I find it realt hard to understand.
In addition this also leaves a lot of room for mistakes and fraudes.

The first thing I train salespeople to disclose is that there is no regulation of standards. Even the most accurate USA laboratories print "This report is not a guarantee, valuation or appraisal..." (or words to that effect) right on their reports.

You're essentially correct though. At an extreme level the 2.00ct D IF someone just bought for an "incredible deal" because the guy at the store said-so could actually be a 2.00ct F VS1 by strict grading standards. That's a 135% difference in trade value, but it's not inconceivable that one might be represented as the other. And, logically, at a less extreme level Neil's "travel agent" comparison is apt. People are getting sold "four-star" diamonds every day that he or I would not consider four-star by any stretch.

The solution in the future is to work with a reputable professional you trust. That could be an expert jeweler, an independent appraiser or a combination. There are great people out there who will deliver what you want, at strict standards and at a fair price.

 

[Enerchi]

thank you both (Neil and John) for your posts. Interesting - appreciate your input!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Very true that .25 stones are rarely graded by a lab since it really isn't financially advantageous to do so. Buying stones with GIA (or AGS) grading gives one and independent evaluation of a diamond. If I were buying small ungraded stones, I know the vendors I could trust to buy them from. But for larger stones, I would only buy GIA or AGS. It is at your own risk to buy diamonds that have not been graded by a lab independent from the jeweler. When people here buy ungraded diamonds second-hand, for example, they use a qualified independent appraiser or send the stone to GIA for grading within the return period. That would have been the thing to do, and then you could have returned your diamond and bought one with better clarity. It sounds like your wife was aware of the inclusion from the start, though. And really, it is wise to look at a diamond with a loupe in the store before you ever buy it. In this case, if the inclusion bothers you, I would contact the jeweler and ask if you can trade in the stone for one of better quality (and you will pay more, of course).

 

[m3csl]

Michelin, resturants and hotels: As we all know, about taste we cannot argue because these are individual to each person, and these fileds dont have standards, and every person experience them differently.
Vehicles MPG ? the same , no standard for testing it also.
But diamonds clarity ? how difficult is that to defined a character for sizes of contaminations inside a diamond ?
like lenses has a standrad for scratches and digs .. diamonds shouldnt be much different.
Anyway, just to be focused on my case, If the diamond was graded at the store as a VS1 which according to the "standard" is defined as :"VS1 has small Inclusions that are difficult to see under 10x Magnification" , and my wife and I could see the inclusion with our naked eye from a 15cm distance, than for non-professionals like us it seems unambiguous as a lower clarity level.
Looking in the SI clarity levels definitions further emphasize my point:
"SI1 Clarity Diamonds have small Inclusions that are only visible under a microscope. SI2 Clarity Diamonds have small Inclusions as well, but sometimes these Flaws can be seen with the naked eye (usually viewing the Diamond from a side view)."

I think it is very said that we got to the point where we compare diamonds to hotel stars

 

[oldminer]

There is no major lab that can claim to be able to show material, factual "proof" that a color or clarity grade is absolute fact. No one has a "case" when a stone grades differently from one lab to another by a single, or possibly even two grades. Further degrading the ability to make a "case" is that litigation costs so much more than what is generally the potential to win any extra damages.

The best and only way is to understand what you are doing BEFORE you do it. Knowedge gained in advance of purchase is by far the best way to eliminate nearly all problems concerning quality and relative value.

Turning human color and clarity grades into factual reality is not only possible but being done currently and quietly behind the scenes. Diamonds graded from start to finish by high tech equipment with repeatable and accurate grading, supervised by a Graduate Gemologist, are getting into the public arena with a particular brand premium cut diamond sold by a very large retailer in the USA. I'm not at liberty to say more about it. In a period of time I feel certain that this much more objective method of grading will become increasing known and earn respect in the trade and with the public. For the present time, GIA and AGSL are the most strict and respected labs of major consequence. Professional appraisers often are amazed, dumbfounded and annoyed by what other labs do when grading diamonds. We can't begin to unravel how one minor lab compares to any other minor lab in any consistent way. No minor lab compares in any consistent way with GIA, possibly with the exception of GCAL.

You would find that experienced appraisers often meet GIA grading results so one must assume that those minor labs that rarely grade like GIA perform their grading knowing exactly what they are doing and have their own internal, lax operating standards.

 

[denverappraiser]

Anyway, just to be focused on my case, If the diamond was graded at the store as a VS1 which according to the "standard" is defined as :"VS1 has small Inclusions that are difficult to see under 10x Magnification" , and my wife and I could see the inclusion with our naked eye from a 15cm distance, than for non-professionals like us it seems unambiguous as a lower clarity level.

Looking in the SI clarity levels definitions further emphasize my point:
"SI1 Clarity Diamonds have small Inclusions that are only visible under a microscope. SI2 Clarity Diamonds have small Inclusions as well, but sometimes these Flaws can be seen with the naked eye (usually viewing the Diamond from a side view)."

This is not correct. As you point out, you don't know what grading standard was being used and simply using the character string 'VS1' as the name of one of the grades on an unspecified scale means nothing at all. If this definition was supplied by the grader/seller, take it up with them. If it's something you found online as a supposedly objective standard for what these terms mean, you are reading more into the grading than is present. If you want to rely on a grading, START by assessing the reliability of the grader. This is true whether we're talking about diamonds, hotels, MPG estimates or nearly anything else.

 

[John P]

I think it is very said that we got to the point where we compare diamonds to hotel stars

Let's clarify - No one is comparing diamonds themselves to hotel stars. A diamond is what it is. The lab or person doing the grading is the one assigning the "stars." A diamond remains X color, whether lab1 calls it G, lab2 calls it F or my Aunt Fanny calls it E (she needs glasses).

Outback Steakhouse is a fine family establishment but in my personal galaxy it earns two stars, max. My neighbors, who are not into high-filootin' food experiences, would probably give it four-or-five stars based on the number of times they seem to go there... Outback remains the same. Our standards vary... Taking it a step further; who do you think Outback's PR department would be more likely to hire to endorse them in a commercial - me? Or my neighbors, who give them three more enthusiastic stars?

Last week I saw two grading reports for the same princess cut. One lab graded the stone as a 1.56 D VS2, VG-VG. The other (same stone) gave it 1.56 G SI1 G-G. Different labs. Same stone... Now if you are a profit-oriented-salesman holding that diamond, and you have both reports, which one are you likely to show a consumer seeking a princess for a "deal"?

What we're discussing is indeed a surprising realization for consumers, especially those accustomed to order and common-standards, as you likely are in your field. In my first career I was a school teacher. I entered the diamond industry precisely because I felt there was opportunity to benefit consumers by educating them about these realities (as a result of my own surprise during my first diamond journey)... Now I train professionals to earn client trust through disclosure & education. As I said in my first post, there are trustworthy experts out there who are into high standards and consumer protection.

As the digital age advances it's possible that we'll see greater mechanical grading. It's already happening (nominally, not thoroughly) in cut grading. Colorimetry and clarity are being pursued by several companies but we're not yet to the point where major players are ready to pass the baton... And it's very likely, in economic terms, that the players who make a profit by providing retailers with what others might call "soft" reports will drag their feet against standardization; mechanical or otherwise.

 

[m3csl]

Outback Steakhouse is a fine family establishment but in my personal galaxy it earns two stars, max. My neighbors, who are not into high-filootin' food experiences, would probably give it four-or-five stars based on the number of times they seem to go there

John, This is exactly my point - the steakhouse review is according to personal taste and preferences.
When you have an inclusions on a diamond it is there infront of you and you cannot give different opinions regarding its size. The only thing that should differ between one person to another's evaluation is their sight , which shouldnt be a parameter in the evaluation process.

 

[John P]

Outback Steakhouse is a fine family establishment but in my personal galaxy it earns two stars, max. My neighbors, who are not into high-filootin' food experiences, would probably give it four-or-five stars based on the number of times they seem to go there

John, This is exactly my point - the steakhouse review is according to personal taste and preferences.

Not necessarily. My "five stars" are awarded based on the use of a higher grade of beef, higher quality/organic produce, more expensive fundamental ingredients, improved skill and leadership in the kitchen, more experienced wait staff, the presence of a sommelier and a dessert chef, a much deeper wine list, real china, real crystal, real napkins (etc). Yes, the end result is a different taste. But it's far more expensive to produce that end result and (some) people are willing to pay more for it. In fact, since the number of Outbacks out there will far outnumber the kind of place needed to get my five stars it's ultimately a matter of rarity - which is exactly what color/clarity grading is supposed to address.

When you have an inclusions on a diamond it is there infront of you and you cannot give different opinions regarding its size. The only thing that should differ between one person to another's evaluation is their sight , which shouldnt be a parameter in the evaluation process.

The point people are trying to communicate to you is that standards vary.

My neighbor is not "wrong" to say Outback gets five stars (even though I might disagree) because no law decides his standards.
Your store is not "wrong" to say the diamond is a VS2 (even though I might disagree) because no law decides their standards.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Outback Steakhouse is a fine family establishment but in my personal galaxy it earns two stars, max. My neighbors, who are not into high-filootin' food experiences, would probably give it four-or-five stars based on the number of times they seem to go there

John, This is exactly my point - the steakhouse review is according to personal taste and preferences.
When you have an inclusions on a diamond it is there infront of you and you cannot give different opinions regarding its size. The only thing that should differ between one person to another's evaluation is their sight , which shouldnt be a parameter in the evaluation process.

The major reliable labs have done just what you are saying -- they have standardized it pretty well. That is why we keep saying to buy GIA and AGS goods.

Why doesn't the rest of the industry follow suit? It does not behoove them to do so Did you think of that? Misleading consumers is a major standard operating procedure in the diamond industry in my opinion**. It IS scandelous. And 99.9% of consumers do not know anything about it and yet still plonk down their money without much thought. It is a real coup of marketing, the way the industry works at convincing consumers they should not think too much about diamond because it is an emotional purchase.

ETA: **Present company exlcuded of course

 

[m3csl]

Misleading consumers is a major standard operating procedure in the diamond industry in my opinion**. It IS scandelous. And 99.9% of consumers do not know anything about it and yet still plonk down their money without much thought. It is a real coup of marketing, the way the industry works at convincing consumers they should not think too much about diamond because it is an emotional purchase.

Thank you Dreamer D , I rest my case ...
Too bad I'm going to lose on these one in the real world ..

 

[canuk-gal]

Misleading consumers is a major standard operating procedure in the diamond industry in my opinion**. It IS scandelous. And 99.9% of consumers do not know anything about it and yet still plonk down their money without much thought. It is a real coup of marketing, the way the industry works at convincing consumers they should not think too much about diamond because it is an emotional purchase.

Thank you Dreamer D , I rest my case ...
Too bad I'm going to lose on these one in the real world ..

What is it that you are going to lose; or rather what are you hoping to gain?

cheers--Sharon

 

[slg47]

thank you both (Neil and John) for your posts. Interesting - appreciate your input!

yes, thank you!!