bonja
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what the difference between fancy yellow and yellow
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stone-cold11
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It depends....If you have a diamond in mind and you are not sure of the colour ( it isn't reliably lab graded) then an independant appraiser can help tell you what you actually have. Fancy colours are usually quite intense, a reliably graded M colour will only show a very slight tint, not what I would call yellow. There is a distinct visual difference between a true fancy yellow and an M colour ( if again both reliably lab graded especially).
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If you feel like reading a bit:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fancy-light-yellow-fancy-or-cape.66898/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fancy-light-yellow-fancy-or-cape.66898/
Kelli
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Think of it this way. The Z/Fancy boundary is the point where you stop seeing it as a yellow tint to a colorless stone and start seeing it as a yellow stone.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
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if you poke around at Diamonds by Lauren you will find a lot of grading scale pics of yellow diamonds, might be a help!
swingirl
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Although I usually agree with Neil, I could not disagree more strongly with that statement.
The stone in the photo was graded "Y-Z" Natural Light Yellow by GIA.
The "boundary" between Y-Z and Fancy Light Yellow is completely one of nomenclature- having nothing to do with the actual difference between "Fancy Colored" and colorless diamonds. No one who knows what a diamond looks like could confuse the stone I posted with a colorless stone, or an "off color stone"
It could , however, easily be confused with a "Fancy Yellow"- which is why so may dealers send such stones to EGL who WILL grade them "Fancy Yellow"
We've found that if you properly identify the lower GIA grades, people can and will embrace the lovely colors.
Generally speaking an M will be a stone more like Neil described- A colorless stone with a tint.
But there are cases of M color diamonds that have a far more apparent tint than the lovely diamond Kelli posted.
Thanks for the mention Asscherhalo_lover
To answer the question of the OP- Please make sure yo're looking at diamonds graded by GIA and there'll be no doubt.
bonja
Rough_Rock
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I attached the stone photo , on the left is 2,21 ct certificate HRD , it is (K) color . i am asking for the right one . it is 2,29 ct yellow but i think it is not clear enough on the photo to see the different between both of them .
and what do you think the price per carat it must to be ? i think it is VS2
thanx
and what do you think the price per carat it must to be ? i think it is VS2
thanx
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bonja,
it''s not possible to tell anything from that photo.
In my experience, a grade from HRD is nowhere near a grade from GIA, in terms of accuracy.
Even if it was a better photo we still can''t trust the HRD grade for comparison.
Therefore it''s not possible to even comment on the price.
I do not feel you should be considering such stones without a GIA report, but that''s just my opinion.....
it''s not possible to tell anything from that photo.
In my experience, a grade from HRD is nowhere near a grade from GIA, in terms of accuracy.
Even if it was a better photo we still can''t trust the HRD grade for comparison.
Therefore it''s not possible to even comment on the price.
I do not feel you should be considering such stones without a GIA report, but that''s just my opinion.....
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Date: 4/16/2009 1:08:18 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Although I usually agree with Neil, I could not disagree more strongly with that statement.
The stone in the photo was graded ''Y-Z'' Natural Light Yellow by GIA.
The ''boundary'' between Y-Z and Fancy Light Yellow is completely one of nomenclature- having nothing to do with the actual difference between ''Fancy Colored'' and colorless diamonds. No one who knows what a diamond looks like could confuse the stone I posted with a colorless stone, or an ''off color stone''
Can you please post a focused face up shot and a focused profile shot against white background?
It could , however, easily be confused with a ''Fancy Yellow''- which is why so may dealers send such stones to EGL who WILL grade them ''Fancy Yellow''
Why? GIA doesnt grade them fancy?
We''ve found that if you properly identify the lower GIA grades, people can and will embrace the lovely colors.
Generally speaking an M will be a stone more like Neil described- A colorless stone with a tint.
But there are cases of M color diamonds that have a far more apparent tint than the lovely diamond Kelli posted.
Thanks for the mention Asscherhalo_lover
To answer the question of the OP- Please make sure yo''re looking at diamonds graded by GIA and there''ll be no doubt.
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Date: 4/16/2009 3:49:29 PM
Author: DiaGem
Date: 4/16/2009 1:08:18 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Although I usually agree with Neil, I could not disagree more strongly with that statement.
The stone in the photo was graded ''Y-Z'' Natural Light Yellow by GIA.
The ''boundary'' between Y-Z and Fancy Light Yellow is completely one of nomenclature- having nothing to do with the actual difference between ''Fancy Colored'' and colorless diamonds. No one who knows what a diamond looks like could confuse the stone I posted with a colorless stone, or an ''off color stone''
Can you please post a focused face up shot and a focused profile shot against white background?
The stone in question has already been set into a ring. I''ve posted a photo of the ring.
It could , however, easily be confused with a ''Fancy Yellow''- which is why so may dealers send such stones to EGL who WILL grade them ''Fancy Yellow''
Why? GIA doesnt grade them fancy?
Why doesn''t GIA call a "D" color white? As I''ve said the names of the grades - especially the lack of the word "fancy" does not accurately portray stones in the U-V, W-X, and Y-Z ranges.
We''ve found that if you properly identify the lower GIA grades, people can and will embrace the lovely colors.
Generally speaking an M will be a stone more like Neil described- A colorless stone with a tint.
But there are cases of M color diamonds that have a far more apparent tint than the lovely diamond Kelli posted.
Thanks for the mention Asscherhalo_lover
To answer the question of the OP- Please make sure yo''re looking at diamonds graded by GIA and there''ll be no doubt.
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Diagem- this is a subect near and dear to my heart- I am extremely interested in your point....if I only knew what your point is.....
I have always been a supported of GIA. IN terms of accuracy, and consistency, they are amazing.
But the nomenclature they use is a weak point, IMO.
For example- if we get the full GIA report on a light yellow, GIA identifies the color as "W-X Range" ( for example)
But if we order the "Color origin" report, the name becomes "W-X Range, Light Yellow, Natural Color" such as the exmple I posted.
I belive this causes a fair amount of confusion for consumers.
Remember too that a light yellow diamond , when properly set, can pick up quite a bit of color
oldmancoyote
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Date: 4/16/2009 4:19:14 PM
Author: DiaGem
I would add..., adding the 'fancy' word does not always accurately portray stones graded in the 'fancy-light - fancy' ranges...
Which only adds to the confusion of people like the OP, if you need to start thinking of face up vs. face down colour... (which I think is where DiaGem was going)
Author: DiaGem
I would add..., adding the 'fancy' word does not always accurately portray stones graded in the 'fancy-light - fancy' ranges...
Which only adds to the confusion of people like the OP, if you need to start thinking of face up vs. face down colour... (which I think is where DiaGem was going)
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You said it..., "pick up"..., as from the yellow gold surround? But it doesnt make the specific stone a "fancy color" (note the magic word)
I believe that the actual material needs to have a certain amount of genuine color (body as well, not only face up) to earn the magic "Fancy Colored Diamond" name.
Tricks like special settings or special cutting techniques can help mass-market dark "cape" stones as ""fancy"" colors..., but they are a far cry from the real rare material that actually earns the name.
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Using that logic, it's a "trick" to polish any diamond. Is it a trick to use top level setters and jewelers?
taking these stones , sending them to IGI or EGL to have them called "Fancy Yellow" sound like a trick to me.
Using them in the finest jewelry, properly set and identified sounds pretty straight forward to me..
The way a diamond is set... and how it looks when set, are probably the most important aspect to 99% of the people that buy diamonds.
How red is an apple?
If it is indeed a red apple.
Is it fancy Red- Intense red?
If someone looks at the 2.97ct ring I posted- made by some incredibly talented jewelers and setters, they see a yellow diamond.
No one asks- "oh, did GIA call that one "fancy"- if not, my eyes must be lying."
The main difference between the 2.97 W-X and a Fancy Vivid Yellow is the price.
The factory that cut the 2.97cuts Vivid Yellow Diamonds all the time.
In fact, the 2.97 is the top piece of a larger piece of rough which was sawed.
I guarantee that my friend who plotted all this out made sure to maximize the color on the larger piece of the rough.
But in no way did he scrimp cutting this part of the rough.
Someone who wants a Vivid Yellow - and understands the market - will pay at least 5 times the price ( probably 7-10 times the price) for such a stone as compared to a W-X.
We've got literally thousands of folks walking around with this type of yellow diamonds on their finger who get comments- positive comments- all the time on their "Canary" diamonds.
taking these stones , sending them to IGI or EGL to have them called "Fancy Yellow" sound like a trick to me.
Using them in the finest jewelry, properly set and identified sounds pretty straight forward to me..
The way a diamond is set... and how it looks when set, are probably the most important aspect to 99% of the people that buy diamonds.
How red is an apple?
If it is indeed a red apple.
Is it fancy Red- Intense red?
If someone looks at the 2.97ct ring I posted- made by some incredibly talented jewelers and setters, they see a yellow diamond.
No one asks- "oh, did GIA call that one "fancy"- if not, my eyes must be lying."
The main difference between the 2.97 W-X and a Fancy Vivid Yellow is the price.
The factory that cut the 2.97cuts Vivid Yellow Diamonds all the time.
In fact, the 2.97 is the top piece of a larger piece of rough which was sawed.
I guarantee that my friend who plotted all this out made sure to maximize the color on the larger piece of the rough.
But in no way did he scrimp cutting this part of the rough.
Someone who wants a Vivid Yellow - and understands the market - will pay at least 5 times the price ( probably 7-10 times the price) for such a stone as compared to a W-X.
We've got literally thousands of folks walking around with this type of yellow diamonds on their finger who get comments- positive comments- all the time on their "Canary" diamonds.
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I will not get into a deep discussion with you as you obviously look at the issue differently..., "this is a subject near and dear to your heart-".
But I will stick to my opinion
.
I will just add some comments...
But I will stick to my opinion
I will just add some comments...
Like I called it above..., mass-marketing..., it doesnt mean they are not beautiful as I am sure they are..., but one thing is for sure..., in my opinion they can in no way be compared to the "Canary Diamonds " back in the days that word had a valuable meaning.
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oldmancoyote
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Don't know about confusing, but heck, is it profitable!
Funnily enough, with a Y-Z you have a guarantee of a consistent light yellow body colour, since it's graded face down. A FLY may have less body colour but a smarter cut... meaning it faces up more yellow.
The question is: who is served by grading colourless diamonds face down in 17 (or 23) categories?
Answer: the diamond industry, which creates perception of rarity due to minute differences difficult to perceive in real life
Who is served by grading fancy colour diamonds face up in 6 categories?
The diamond industry, which creates added value in relatively common goods by being clever at cutting them, and bunching stones in broad ranges where there is a lot of difference between 'top' and 'bottom' performers in each.
In the middle... perhaps the consumer who appreciates softer yellows may benefit from these distortions induced by inconsistent grading methodologies, since they cause lower prices for items that are neither common nor ugly.
BTW - lest this be taken as any form of attack on David as representative of 'the industry' - he is one of the few vendors consistently telling people upfront about the existence of colour ranges (not all FIY are the same), and is clear about what his diamonds look like in terms of saturation, tone and hue, not least with photos.
Funnily enough, with a Y-Z you have a guarantee of a consistent light yellow body colour, since it's graded face down. A FLY may have less body colour but a smarter cut... meaning it faces up more yellow.
The question is: who is served by grading colourless diamonds face down in 17 (or 23) categories?
Answer: the diamond industry, which creates perception of rarity due to minute differences difficult to perceive in real life
Who is served by grading fancy colour diamonds face up in 6 categories?
The diamond industry, which creates added value in relatively common goods by being clever at cutting them, and bunching stones in broad ranges where there is a lot of difference between 'top' and 'bottom' performers in each.
In the middle... perhaps the consumer who appreciates softer yellows may benefit from these distortions induced by inconsistent grading methodologies, since they cause lower prices for items that are neither common nor ugly.
BTW - lest this be taken as any form of attack on David as representative of 'the industry' - he is one of the few vendors consistently telling people upfront about the existence of colour ranges (not all FIY are the same), and is clear about what his diamonds look like in terms of saturation, tone and hue, not least with photos.
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HI everyone!Date: 4/16/2009 5:50:27 PM
Author: DiaGem
I will not get into a deep discussion with you as you obviously look at the issue differently..., 'this is a subject near and dear to your heart-'.
But I will stick to my opinion.
I will just add some comments...
Like I called it above..., mass-marketing..., it doesnt mean they are not beautiful as I am sure they are..., but one thing is for sure..., in my opinion they can in no way be compared to the 'Canary Diamonds ' back in the days that word had a valuable meaning.
Diagem- you say you don;t want to discuss this deeply, then make some comments that seem to beg for an answer.
Isn't this exactly the type of place to have such a conversation?
Using the term "mass marketing" to me seems pejorative ( an insult)
Yes, we've sold thousands of these stones. I can't speak for others, but I purchased each and every one individually after much consideration.
Can you show me this "mass marketing" of U-V through Y=Z diamonds you refer to?
Other than some sellers using EGL to call these stones Fancy Yellows, I don't see them being properly- or aggressively- promoted at all.
OMC- If I read your post correctly, you're making assumptions based on "facts" not in evidence.
The lighter yellow stones are decidedly NOT the most profitable for cutters. The reason being is that the prices for polished diamonds in the U-V, W-X and Y-Z range are among the lowest you can find for well cut stones of any given size.
Re-reading what you wrote, maybe your point was that a "weak" vivid ( a stone that might get intense on a different day) represents a windfall for the cutter. Still, how many times does the opposite happen?
In terms of face up- isn't that the best way to see what the diamond actually looks like.
I've been a diamond grader for most of my adult life- therefore I'm quite used to putting the stones table down to see the body color. It's still more relevant how a stone looks through the table to me.
When I first started working with stones in the light yellow ranges, it was exactly the color my eyes saw in the face up position that hooked me on them
The light yellow color in a W-X is arguably every bit as attractive to me ( and many others) as the purest Fancy Vivid Yellow.
It's also true that there is a range in each of the color. The darkest stone graded Y-Z color is going to have more color than the lightest stone graded "Fancy Light Yellow".
The same situation exists at the cusp of all the colors. We look at huge numbers of diamonds graded by GIA- and these borderline stones are the exception- not all that common.
To me, I see this as a necessary evil-The task of grading the color of a diamond is far more difficult that quantifying the lack of color in a diamond- which is basically how to determine the grade of t a colorless diamond. Hold it next to stones who's color is established, and see which has more color.
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oldmancoyote
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Date: 4/17/2009 3:50:06 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
[snip]
OMC- If I read your post correctly, you''re making assumptions based on ''facts'' not in evidence.
Pray tell - which "facts" have I quoted that are not based on evidence?
The lighter yellow stones are decidedly NOT the most profitable for cutters. The reason being is that the prices for polished diamonds in the U-V, W-X and Y-Z range are among the lowest you can find for well cut stones of any given size.
That''s what I was trying to say too. I think that the point that DiaGem and I are arguing is that if (since) it is possible to get a W-X body colour (face-down) stone graded as FLY (face-up) simply by cutting it differently, then profit increases, precisely because low colour stones are classed as "inferior quality", while Fancies are "rare". Note the quotes to indicate perception/marketing positioning, rather than truth.
Re-reading what you wrote, maybe your point was that a ''weak'' vivid ( a stone that might get intense on a different day) represents a windfall for the cutter. Still, how many times does the opposite happen?
Yes, agreed - but my main point is that the way diamonds are graded for colour makes no sense, particularly for the consumer
In terms of face up- isn''t that the best way to see what the diamond actually looks like.
I''ve been a diamond grader for most of my adult life- therefore I''m quite used to putting the stones table down to see the body color. It''s still more relevant how a stone looks through the table to me.
[snip]
I agree again, especially since there are very few people that buy a gem only to compare it face-down to a set of master stones.
The problem is that in order to create marketing value, someone came up with the wonderful idea of a far more discriminating system for ''colourless'' than the one used for ''fancy colour'' in diamonds and coloured stones in general. And now we are stuck with it.
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HI Diagem,
Thanks for your honesty. Yes, I am very passionate about what we do. Terms like "tricks" push a button- as we are very careful to be as transparent as possible when working with diamonds. Sorry if I misunderstood your intent.
I am here to discuss- maybe we can find some middle ground where so we can talk. I am very interested in your views..
My point is that finding the rough to cut stones like the 2.97, or finding the actual polished stones is not all that easy.
Our business is buying and selling of polished diamonds.
But I can say for sure that the cutters we deal with- that specialize in the darker stones- capes and fancy colors- have pretty much stopped cutting because for the last 12-18 months it''s been impossible to buy the rough at a price that makes sense.
Yes, we still see well cut light yellows that broadcast the color well. But we generally have to look through a lot of badly cut stones that don''t perform well to find the good ones.
The prices of these stones is still a lot less than what Diagem thinks of as Fancy Colors.
A lot of people in the industry agree with Diagem, and feel these stones have little value.
I disagree. I''m also happy to be in the minority.
I will make every effort to not get personal Diagem- but my likes and dislikes do enter into this discussion to the extent that I''ve really had a lot of personal experience, which certainly enters into my viewpoint.
I buy light yellow - or cape stones, as you call them, because I really love the way they look.
Thanks for your honesty. Yes, I am very passionate about what we do. Terms like "tricks" push a button- as we are very careful to be as transparent as possible when working with diamonds. Sorry if I misunderstood your intent.
I am here to discuss- maybe we can find some middle ground where so we can talk. I am very interested in your views..
My point is that finding the rough to cut stones like the 2.97, or finding the actual polished stones is not all that easy.
Our business is buying and selling of polished diamonds.
But I can say for sure that the cutters we deal with- that specialize in the darker stones- capes and fancy colors- have pretty much stopped cutting because for the last 12-18 months it''s been impossible to buy the rough at a price that makes sense.
Yes, we still see well cut light yellows that broadcast the color well. But we generally have to look through a lot of badly cut stones that don''t perform well to find the good ones.
The prices of these stones is still a lot less than what Diagem thinks of as Fancy Colors.
A lot of people in the industry agree with Diagem, and feel these stones have little value.
I disagree. I''m also happy to be in the minority.
I will make every effort to not get personal Diagem- but my likes and dislikes do enter into this discussion to the extent that I''ve really had a lot of personal experience, which certainly enters into my viewpoint.
I buy light yellow - or cape stones, as you call them, because I really love the way they look.
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I see what you saying OMC- but again- we disagree.Date: 4/17/2009 6:16:10 PM
Author: oldmancoyote
Date: 4/17/2009 3:50:06 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
[snip]
OMC- If I read your post correctly, you''re making assumptions based on ''facts'' not in evidence.
Pray tell - which ''facts'' have I quoted that are not based on evidence?
The lighter yellow stones are decidedly NOT the most profitable for cutters. The reason being is that the prices for polished diamonds in the U-V, W-X and Y-Z range are among the lowest you can find for well cut stones of any given size.
That''s what I was trying to say too. I think that the point that DiaGem and I are arguing is that if (since) it is possible to get a W-X body colour (face-down) stone graded as FLY (face-up) simply by cutting it differently, then profit increases, precisely because low colour stones are classed as ''inferior quality'', while Fancies are ''rare''. Note the quotes to indicate perception/marketing positioning, rather than truth.
Re-reading what you wrote, maybe your point was that a ''weak'' vivid ( a stone that might get intense on a different day) represents a windfall for the cutter. Still, how many times does the opposite happen?
Yes, agreed - but my main point is that the way diamonds are graded for colour makes no sense, particularly for the consumer
In terms of face up- isn''t that the best way to see what the diamond actually looks like.
I''ve been a diamond grader for most of my adult life- therefore I''m quite used to putting the stones table down to see the body color. It''s still more relevant how a stone looks through the table to me.
[snip]
I agree again, especially since there are very few people that buy a gem only to compare it face-down to a set of master stones.
The problem is that in order to create marketing value, someone came up with the wonderful idea of a far more discriminating system for ''colourless'' than the one used for ''fancy colour'' in diamonds and coloured stones in general. And now we are stuck with it.
The basis of the grading system- which you feel is to the consumer''s disadvantage, and not discriminating enough- is extremely practical, IMO.
I could make a point that the scale of grading for near colorless diamonds is to closely calibrated, in some areas. For example, the large number of "VG" cut grade diamonds that are as beautiful as many "EX" cut grade diamonds.
We have a K, and an M color that match beautifully for earrings. Should we throw away the GIA reports?
We can pick apart the system, and certainly find flaws in how it works ( or doesn''t, as the case may be)- but the essence of diamonds is not a "calibratable" thing. For this reason, loose groupings work better IMO.
The market will certainly make adjustments for the anomalies.
There''s a huge difference in price between a Fancy Intense Yellow stone that just made it, and one that just missed vivid.
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How to Buy the Best $25,000 Engagement Ring: A Smart Shopper’s Guide
How to Buy the Best $25,000 Engagement Ring: A Smart Shopper’s Guide - 02/24
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