What makes CBIs "more contrasty" than other superideals?

[gm89uk]

I can understand where you're coming from in principle and vendors do comment on their stones from time to time to clarify things.

However this is a topic that has come up repeatedly and you can bet they are being watched closely. Rushing in to say how great your diamond cut is at this point, could be seen as distasteful to other superideal vendors and I know between the vendors there is a lot of respect for each other. I guess it's professional courtesy to each other to sometimes just take a step back and let their stones do the talking to their customers (of which there are plenty to all the superideal vendors)!

 

[the_mother_thing]

I understand there are forum rules prohibiting trade members from commenting on specific diamonds due to the obvious conflict of interest.

However, if a PSer asks on this forum if a vendor considers X aspect when cutting their diamonds and the vendor choose to respond "yes, we consider that." or "no, we don't" I would find that response very useful and not unprofessional at all.

It could also be viewed as a form of self-promotion to answer the question, and I believe that is also something Trade members are not allowed to do. Now, if you happened to call other Super Ideal vendors, and ask that question, and report back on your findings for consumer awareness/comparison purposes, I wouldn’t see any harm/foul in that.

I (and I’m certain many others) REALLY appreciate the participation and input (where permitted) by the trade members on this forum as they bring a ton of knowledge & experience to the community, and I’d hate to see them feel compelled to answer a question on here that could be viewed as crossing the line and result in a time-out (or worse, termination) of their PS acct. If someone is THAT curious to know the answer, they can simply call the vendor and inquire.

Just my $0.02.

 

[skypie]

If it is against forum rules for vendors to state their standards/practices, then absolutely they should not do it! 100% agreed on that point.

 

[the_mother_thing]

If I were shopping for a super ideal, I wouldn’t hesitate to buy a diamond from either HPD or WF - it literally would come down to who has the best performing diamond available in line with my specs and in my budget. Because I know with a good degree of certainty that my eyes would likely never articulate the difference as well as others on here have/can.

Everything you want to know about ACAs: https://www.whiteflash.com/a-cut-above-diamonds-specifications-and-qualifications/

A 10,000-foot summary excerpt:

A CUT ABOVE® diamonds, available exclusively at Whiteflash, are the most carefully crafted and exhaustively evaluated diamonds in the world. Each must pass three separate and independent stages of multi-level quality control including manufacturer evaluation, laboratory grading, and internal Whiteflash review. The process begins with the careful selection of rough diamond crystals and cutting by the most experienced and skilled craftsmen using the latest equipment and technologies. The finished diamonds then proceed to the AGS laboratory for comprehensive evaluations and grading by the world’s leading authority in cut quality analysis. And finally, the diamonds must pass the additional light performance testing and physical examinations performed by the Whiteflash review team operating under ISO 9000 certification standards.

The result is the most consistently dependable, super ideal diamond in the world featuring Proven Light Performance and Uncompromising Beauty.

For argument’s sake, I understand it, that’s not an easy process to undertake to earn that certification, but it ensures - as a consumer - that there is predictability and consistency in the products that company offers, and that gives me a degree of comfort in the overall value of what I paid for my diamond. Are all the other SI vendors also ISO 9000 certified? (Note - I don’t really expect nor want an answer to the question - my point is, we can all derive ‘value’ from various aspects of how a company does business and what/how they operate.) It may be focusing on all 57 facets, it may be on applying rigorous consistency to business methodologies to produce consistent outcomes, it may be having outstanding customer service before, during and after the sale, or it could be all of those and then some. At the end of the day, we all have our specs, limitations, and budgets and we make buying decisions that are best individually based on what is important to us in the same manner.

It’s also fair to acknowledge and respect that not every vendor wants to make public every shred of potentially-proprietary information about their operating model ... whether they are selling diamonds or duck calls. This has been educational & informative, and helped to pass my time while I await confirmation my diamond arrived at Sholdt.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Interesting discussion. It is true that there is a significant level of mutual respect between the super ideal vendors. Bringing these stones to market is to an extent, swimming against the tide.

We have enormous respect for our colleagues who are similarly devoted to cutting for optimal beauty. It is challenging to meet the stringent requirements and stay competitive with the broader market.

Business models and marketing messages do vary somewhat, as does the overall value proposition between the various companies in this space. But one thing is clear, we all pay very careful attention to all 57 facets in three dimensions!

 

[skypie]

Thanks for chiming in, Bryan! I appreciate the confirmation of WhiteFlash's practice!

Interesting discussion. It is true that here is a significant level of mutual respect between the super ideal vendors. Bringing these stones to market is to an extent, swimming against the tide.

We have enormous respect for our colleagues who are similarly devoted to cutting for optimal beauty. It is challenging to meet the stringent requirements and stay competitive with the broader market.

Business models and marketing messages do vary somewhat, as does the overall value proposition between the various companies in this space. But one thing is clear, we all pay very careful attention to all 57 facets in three dimensions!

 

[Dancing Fire]

delete

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Bringing these stones to market is to an extent, swimming against the tide.

The tide you refer to Bryan is the traditional trade that needs to move all sorts of goods.
The TIDE I respect is savvy consumers. The more we get the better diamond cutting and polishing will be. And the more likely grading standards will undergo adjustment.

This little chart is not the one with the numbers on it. But you will all 'get it'.
The first peak is 0.70ct, then smaller 80;s, 90s and a big jump to 1ct. All the missing stones between and just before a hump are the stones that should have been cut lighter. They are deeper, therefore they leak more light and that means they look even smaller than their measured millimetres.
It should be the basis of a class action for all those people who have a 1.00ct diamond that measures the same as a 0.95ct and looks the same size as an 0.80ct diamond.

 

[yssie]

All of these stones are superideal. You aren’t going to find any vendor willing to comment on why one boutique vendor’s stones might be superior to another’s... the title of this thread demands direct comparison - and goes further to posit a winner. This is far from objective or unbiased.

I get it. I’ve asked pointed questions before and received nondeterministic responses. Know your venue, know your audience, temper your expectations. Reach out to various vendors directly as LLJ suggested if you want more information - and be sure to get an official “okay” before posting anything you may discover on public fora.

 

[skypie]

My goal was never to get one vendor to comment on why they are better than the others. Sorry if the title was misleading in that regard.

My goal (which evolved over the course of the thread) was simply to ask if vendors (aside from HPD) focused on all 57 facets in 3 dimensions, or if HPD was the only one to do this.

Bryan from WhiteFlash kindly confirmed that they too focus on all 57 facets in 3 dimensions. So I find that very useful and reassuring information! So I am thankful for his response in this thread!

All of these stones are superideal. You aren’t going to find any vendor willing to comment on why one boutique vendor’s stones might be superior to another’s... the title of this thread demands direct comparison - and goes further to posit a winner. This is far from objective or unbiased.

I get it. I’ve asked pointed questions before and received nondeterministic responses. Know your venue, know your audience, temper your expectations. Reach out to various vendors directly as LLJ suggested if you want more information - and be sure to get an official “okay” before posting anything you may discover on public fora.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

The tide you refer to Bryan is the traditional trade that needs to move all sorts of goods.
The TIDE I respect is savvy consumers. The more we get the better diamond cutting and polishing will be. And the more likely grading standards will undergo adjustment.

This little chart is not the one with the numbers on it. But you will all 'get it'.
The first peak is 0.70ct, then smaller 80;s, 90s and a big jump to 1ct. All the missing stones between and just before a hump are the stones that should have been cut lighter. They are deeper, therefore they leak more light and that means they look even smaller than their measured millimetres.
It should be the basis of a class action for all those people who have a 1.00ct diamond that measures the same as a 0.95ct and looks the same size as an 0.80ct diamond.

Class action!!! I love the passion Garry.

But this is not a new problem for consumers. I found it fascinating to read Al Gilberson's book "American Cut - The First 100 Years" and to learn that there were a few companies devoting themselves to cutting for beauty over weight as far back as the early 1900's! But the tide they were swimming against then, still prevails today! (as evident in your very interesting graph).

However, Morse et al did not have the benefit of the internet and places like pricescope where large numbers of consumers could get educated on the importance of cut quality. So there is reason to believe our philosophy will ultimately prevail.

 

[arkieb1]

My goal was never to get one vendor to comment on why they are better than the others. Sorry if the title was misleading in that regard.

My goal (which evolved over the course of the thread) was simply to ask if vendors (aside from HPD) focused on all 57 facets in 3 dimensions, or if HPD was the only one to do this.

Bryan from WhiteFlash kindly confirmed that they too focus on all 57 facets in 3 dimensions. So I find that very useful and reassuring information! So I am thankful for his response in this thread!

Put it this way, more than one cutter can cut a "Super Ideal" diamond, take Yoram F he's the amazing cutter who produces new perfectly cut Antique diamonds - AVCs, AVRs and other custom cuts like Octavias. It would be insulting to him and other cutters out there to say they don't pay attention to all 57 facets in 3 dimensions. Could Yoram, and some of the other top diamond cutters cut a stone with the same numbers as a HPD stone (with the same depth, crown height, angles etc) yes he could. Could a diamond cutter in other places with the right equipment cut a diamond with the same numbers as a HPD stone? Yes they also could.

Can you find a diamond hypothetically on sites like Whiteflash, James Allen, Blue Nile, Brian Gavin and so on with the same numbers as a HPD stone, yes, if you know what you are looking for and get lucky you can.

There is no "secret sauce" the two things HPD do really well is consistency - arguable more so than some of the other vendors mentioned, and what I mean by that is sticking to a specific set of numbers within a much tighter set of parameters, when cutting ALL of their stones and cleaver marketing.

 

[Johnbt]

I looked at the CBI/HPD site recently and liked what I saw, but gave up and moved on after using their diamond selection tool. I told myself they must be popular.

Selecting E-F, VVWS1/2 and 1.4 to 2.1 carats returned a total of zero diamonds.

Adding VS1 produced a list of 4.

Adding VS2, even today, shows 7 diamonds.

Adding G increases the choice to 12.

And once my girlfriend decided that something in the 1.5 carat range was what she wanted, those 12 were reduced to 4 - 3 G's and 1 E - or 5 if you include a 1.63.

Sure, I believe what I've read and that a VS2 is all the diamond anyone needs to own at any price. But I am so incredibly near sighted that I can read the nutritional info fine print on the back of a teeny Easter candy wrapper - in bad light no less - at a measured distance of 5.5 ". Did it last night just to see.

For more than 50 years I've been the person who is always asked to unknot a tiny gold chain by using two straight pins to tease it apart because I can see it clearly with no magnification. Need the massive birds nest on your fishing reel untangled? I'm your man.

I guess she'll never know what she's missing. Actually, I'll bet the 1.51 F VVS2 Whiteflash diamond due in on the 16th will be just beautiful. She picked it. I was voting for the 1.7 after she decided against anything 2+.

Did I mention she was an art major in college and had a career in printing/publishing and is a color nut? She knows more colors than the paint display at the hardware store. I can't name 5 of the 8 in a box of crayons.

Gotta go now, she's home from work. I'm retired. It's finally happy hour.

 

[OoohShiny]

I looked at the CBI/HPD site recently and liked what I saw, but gave up and moved on after using their diamond selection tool. I told myself they must be popular.

Selecting E-F, VVWS1/2 and 1.4 to 2.1 carats returned a total of zero diamonds.

Adding VS1 produced a list of 4.

Adding VS2, even today, shows 7 diamonds.

Adding G increases the choice to 12.

And once my girlfriend decided that something in the 1.5 carat range was what she wanted, those 12 were reduced to 4 - 3 G's and 1 E - or 5 if you include a 1.63.

Sure, I believe what I've read and that a VS2 is all the diamond anyone needs to own at any price. But I am so incredibly near sighted that I can read the nutritional info fine print on the back of a teeny Easter candy wrapper - in bad light no less - at a measured distance of 5.5 ". Did it last night just to see.

For more than 50 years I've been the person who is always asked to unknot a tiny gold chain by using two straight pins to tease it apart because I can see it clearly with no magnification. Need the massive birds nest on your fishing reel untangled? I'm your man.

I guess she'll never know what she's missing. Actually, I'll bet the 1.51 F VVS2 Whiteflash diamond due in on the 16th will be just beautiful. She picked it. I was voting for the 1.7 after she decided against anything 2+.

Did I mention she was an art major in college and had a career in printing/publishing and is a color nut? She knows more colors than the paint display at the hardware store. I can't name 5 of the 8 in a box of crayons.

Gotta go now, she's home from work. I'm retired. It's finally happy hour.

Without wishing to be 'one of those internet guys', I'm not entirely clear how this relates to the discussion on contrast and cutting accuracy in SuperIdeal diamonds?

 

[Johnbt]

"I'm not entirely clear how this relates to the discussion on contrast and cutting accuracy in SuperIdeal diamonds?"

That's okay. There's a complete lack of detail available from the vendors/cutters from what I've read so far. We can only look at what they have for sale and decide if we like it or not based on the info they do provide. I would love to believe the promotional advertising, but cannot. The end product is all we have to go by. And the pictures and videos and numbers of course. But it all reminds me of the horsepower wars the car manufacturers wage and the way the truth sometimes gets shaded a bit from time to time. Interesting, but you pays your money and you takes your chances.

My reply was, more or less, to those extolling the virtues of CBI stones over the other super ideal diamonds, etc. They appear to be quite nice, and no doubt are, but what good is that to the internet shopper if they are in somewhat short supply or completely unavailable in certain grades? Of course short supply can be an effective marketing tool. Of maybe they sell all of the higher grade stuff as fast as they make it.

If anyone knows the precise details of what one group of diamond designers and cutters is doing that another group is not doing I'd like to know, but I don't believe anyone is telling their trade secrets.

Meanwhile, we're waiting on a wedding set from Whiteflash. It's a simple Vatche U-113, size 5.5, with a 1.5 carat diamond. It's due to be shipped 4/16 or so.

www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3955177.htm

If she's happy, I'm happy. She picked it. Leaves more for a second boat and a house at the beach.

P.S. - If you think diamond manufacturing is fun to try and dissect, you should look into the high end fishing equipment market - Japan and US - with the rumors and predictions that bounce around the internet. And boats. Jeez. High end boats and yachts will make your head spin with the secrets and the wheeling and dealing that goes on.

 

[the_mother_thing]

There's a complete lack of detail available from the vendors/cutters from what I've read so far. We can only look at what they have for sale and decide if we like it or not based on the info they do provide.

Really? I’m hard pressed to recall walking into any local jewelry store in search of a diamond and having any of their salespeople whip out an IdealScope to show me how great their items are so I can see for myself; have all their GIA/AGS certs laid out on the counter for me to review without asking; and have readily available pictures and video of the diamond up super-close that I can slow it down and see how the facets light up ... ALL with ZERO sneaky sales tactics and/or pressure to buy something inferior that I’m not interested in or doesn’t meet my specs or budget requirements.

I’d say most of the known PS-diamond dealers go above and beyond to provide ample details re: diamonds for buyers consideration.

 

[Johnbt]

"I’d say most of the known PS-diamond dealers go above and beyond to provide ample details re: diamonds for buyers consideration."

Of course they do, but I thought we were discussing all of the other facets, angles, tilts and whatnot (that secret sauce thing) that isn't freely published. They tell us more than the others, but do they tell us everything? I doubt it.

(And I wouldn't expect them to tell their trade secrets.)

I wonder, do the manufacturers have other technology they use to cut and rate and classify diamonds. You know, better and different numbers, pics and vids. I wonder if they make all of it available to the end buyer. Of course not.

It's like the old joke: My buddy says he taught me everything I know about bass fishing. But he didn't teach me everything he knows about bass fishing. That's fine, I benefit substantially.

 

[Johnbt]

Okay, dinner is over. I'm thinking scanning electron microscopes, mass spectrometers and such. Maybe x-rays or other non-visible wavelengths. Or laser cutting and/or smoothing. Who knows, I sure don't. Extreme high magnification would certainly provide a better look at angles and polish and allow them to further refine their techniques.

www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/your-money/synthetic-diamond-jewelry.html

The NY GIA lab has a scanning microscope. Maybe a major diamond merchant can afford a million-plus piece of equipment too.


"Artificial diamonds magnified by a scanning electron microscope at the Gemological Institute of America’s laboratory in New York.CreditSam Hodgson for The New York Times"

 

[OoohShiny]

Thank you for your detailed and civil response, @Johnbt, I appreciate that I am just some random on the internet querying a post you have made, which in some areas of the internet, prompts a somewhat shorter response!

Would I be correct in summarising that what you are saying is "One doesn't know what one is missing if one is not told about it"?

If so, I think that is fair comment, and as you say, we can't expect manufacturers (of anything) to be widely publicising their 'secret sauce' ingredients.

Discussions on this forum have been many and varied about just how much better the 'SuperIdeal' diamonds are compared to plain ol' Ideal diamonds, GIA XXX diamonds, the diamonds you can buy from that chain store at the mall, and about how much better they might be than each other (of which this thread is one!).

I think a general position that could be agreed on by many (and which I have often seen posted) would be that one really needs to see each option with one's own eyes to personally assess if there really is a difference - real or perceived - and then make a decision on that basis.

It is also often posted that a SuperIdeal diamond from any of the vendors will blow most 'average' diamonds out of the water, so if you're not in the position to be able to assess all the options at once (because you don't have crazy amounts of cash or credit to hand, or because you don't have time or just don't want to, or because what you are looking for isn't available from one of the potential vendors, as you have experienced yourself), you can just buy a SuperIdeal from the vendor that is offering the combination of colour/clarity/carat that you are looking for, because you are unlikely to be disappointed no matter which SuperIdeal option you choose I guess that is what the SuperIdeals offer most of all - guaranteed performance, which one might doubt until one sees it, but which undoubtedly is agreeable when one does!

Some have posted their reviews of SuperIdeal vs SuperIdeal, with some preferring one over the other and others seeing no difference, and others have posted to say that they have assessed SuperIdeals against really good GIA XXX stones, with some seeing no difference and others very definitely seeing a difference. There was an interesting example recently where someone went to look at four CBI stones and one GIA XXX stone, but couldn't see the difference so didn't see the point of going for the CBI - and the reason I personally found that interesting was because the GIA XXX was handpicked by the vendor using CBI angles as a template to use when buying, so perhaps they weren't so different in terms of their main performance features, even if the 'added nuances' that CBI create through ultra-tight cutting tolerances might not have been immediately noticeable in the environment they were being reviewed in?!


Anyway, I'm wafffling on. I think you have valid points and are expressing things that a lot of other people have expressed previously - we are very fortunate that PriceScope enables the wide range of choice that the PS-approved vendors provide, as it means you, me and everyone else can buy from a much better position than Jo(e) Public walking into a store from the street and being blindsided by The Hard Sell or just plain BS from an uninformed or plain unscrupulous seller!

We will look forward to pics of your new purchase As a fellow high colour / high clarity person person myself, I like your choice!

 

[ChristineRose]

Okay, dinner is over. I'm thinking scanning electron microscopes, mass spectrometers and such. Maybe x-rays or other non-visible wavelengths. Or laser cutting and/or smoothing. Who knows, I sure don't. Extreme high magnification would certainly provide a better look at angles and polish and allow them to further refine their techniques.

www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/your-money/synthetic-diamond-jewelry.html

The NY GIA lab has a scanning microscope. Maybe a major diamond merchant can afford a million-plus piece of equipment too.


"Artificial diamonds magnified by a scanning electron microscope at the Gemological Institute of America’s laboratory in New York.CreditSam Hodgson for The New York Times"

They use those machines to identify synthetics, treated stones, and determine stone origin. They don't need any of that to assign a cut grade. The differences in these high end branded stones are caused by careful choice of minor and major facets, with light performance determined by software models, and precision cutting measured by lasers and mechanical devices. A laser measurement is just as accurate as high magnification microscope and a lot easier to use.

 

[OoohShiny]

Okay, dinner is over. I'm thinking scanning electron microscopes, mass spectrometers and such. Maybe x-rays or other non-visible wavelengths. Or laser cutting and/or smoothing. Who knows, I sure don't. Extreme high magnification would certainly provide a better look at angles and polish and allow them to further refine their techniques.

www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/your-money/synthetic-diamond-jewelry.html

The NY GIA lab has a scanning microscope. Maybe a major diamond merchant can afford a million-plus piece of equipment too.


"Artificial diamonds magnified by a scanning electron microscope at the Gemological Institute of America’s laboratory in New York.CreditSam Hodgson for The New York Times"

IIRC the thread @Dancing Fire started to show the journey of the rough through to the creation of his Octavia diamond included pictures of the cutting process, including laser cutting, polishing of the facets, and again IIRC, discussion around how the machines aren't accurate enough for a cut that relies on such tight cutting tolerances, so the final tweaking of facets and junctions has to be done by eye!

 

[bludiva]

"There was an interesting example recently where someone went to look at four CBI stones and one GIA XXX stone, but couldn't see the difference so didn't see the point of going for the CBI - and the reason I personally found that interesting was because the GIA XXX was handpicked by the vendor using CBI angles as a template to use when buying"

I think that's the real value of the superideal vendors (I don't have one and haven't seen one in person yet btw). But my take on it is there is value in the vetting. An experienced jeweler or astute buyer may be able to pick out an equally well-performing stone. But for someone who can either notice the difference with their eyes or will be bothered by the difference in their mind and wants to be able to select from inventory they can trust will be top-notch, then the premium for not just the performance but making the selection easy is likely worth it.

 

[arkieb1]

"There was an interesting example recently where someone went to look at four CBI stones and one GIA XXX stone, but couldn't see the difference so didn't see the point of going for the CBI - and the reason I personally found that interesting was because the GIA XXX was handpicked by the vendor using CBI angles as a template to use when buying"

I think that's the real value of the superideal vendors (I don't have one and haven't seen one in person yet btw). But my take on it is there is value in the vetting. An experienced jeweler or astute buyer may be able to pick out an equally well-performing stone. But for someone who can either notice the difference with their eyes or will be bothered by the difference in their mind and wants to be able to select from inventory they can trust will be top-notch, then the premium for not just the performance but making the selection easy is likely worth it.

This exactly - a diamond cut to specifications preferred by some people is maths, technology, science, it's not "secret sauce" vodoo and so on. Gemstones can be perfectly cut too and that relies more on things like the skills of the cutters, their experience cutting, the equipment and technology they have available to them rather than some perceived "secret" mythical gobbledygook....

 

[diagem]

Put it this way, more than one cutter can cut a "Super Ideal" diamond, take Yoram F he's the amazing cutter who produces new perfectly cut Antique diamonds - AVCs, AVRs and other custom cuts like Octavias. It would be insulting to him and other cutters out there to say they don't pay attention to all 57 facets in 3 dimensions. Could Yoram, and some of the other top diamond cutters cut a stone with the same numbers as a HPD stone (with the same depth, crown height, angles etc) yes he could. Could a diamond cutter in other places with the right equipment cut a diamond with the same numbers as a HPD stone? Yes they also could.

Actually arkieb1, I am not familiar with CBI RB’s but can definitely vouch that most Diamond cutters do not take all 57 facets in 3 dimensions as a norm, well they do to a “lesser” extent, but in order to achieve the “crispiness” mentioned on this thread, a cutter will have to take “each & every” facet size, shape, angle and very importantly azimuth into serious 3D optical consideration. Most cutters aim for the “good enough” levels which achieve the GIA triple x or AGS triple 0 magic wordings on the reports. That’s a far cry from the 3D optical precision achievable. But the “secret receipt” mentioned here greatly depends on the cutters ability to understand 3D structures and how they handle light within the Diamond medium itself. To achieve such levels a cutter must delve into the margin of error ranges of current non-contact scanner technologies and let me assure you, not too many cutters have these abilities.

I assume that speciality cutting houses like CBI etc... practice such 3D level craftsmanship. When you do and are able to master these levels, you can definitely differentiate yourself from the rest, and that is a fact.

Current technologies do not accommodate such testing, the only way to test such precision levels of a Diamond cut is through “Real Etas”. I have mentioned this on numerous occasions but no one I know was willing to throw in the ball.

 

[Lula]

Actually arkieb1, I am not familiar with CBI RB’s but can definitely vouch that most Diamond cutters do not take all 57 facets in 3 dimensions as a norm, well they do to a “lesser” extent, but in order to achieve the “crispiness” mentioned on this thread, a cutter will have to take “each & every” facet size, shape, angle and very importantly azimuth into serious 3D optical consideration. Most cutters aim for the “good enough” levels which achieve the GIA triple x or AGS triple 0 magic wordings on the reports. That’s a far cry from the 3D optical precision achievable. But the “secret receipt” mentioned here greatly depends on the cutters ability to understand 3D structures and how they handle light within the Diamond medium itself. To achieve such levels a cutter must delve into the margin of error ranges of current non-contact scanner technologies and let me assure you, not too many cutters have these abilities.

I assume that speciality cutting houses like CBI etc... practice such 3D level craftsmanship. When you do and are able to master these levels, you can definitely differentiate yourself from the rest, and that is a fact.

Current technologies do not accommodate such testing, the only way to test such precision levels of a Diamond cut is through “Real Etas”. I have mentioned this on numerous occasions but no one I know was willing to throw in the ball.

Thank you, Diagem. This explains the craftsmanship and technology that produces what my (layperson) eyes perceive as crispness and contrast in my CBI stones.

 

[arkieb1]

@daigem - I'm sure you know more about diamond cutting that I ever will, so I really thank you for answering some of my questions. I understand that most cutting houses aim for "good enough" as a product of economic constraints, that it's faster and cheaper to produce a "fairly good" stone rather than the time it takes to create an exemplary one, RapNet is full of them.

However, whilst there might only be a limited number of cutters out there skilled enough to be able to cut beautiful super ideal diamonds, and perhaps more importantly companies willing to invest time and dollars in doing so, I don't call that "secret sauce" I call that maths, science and technology, and as you pointed out the skills of the particular cutter.

Does CBI have proprietary ownership over Super Ideals cut to those specifications? I believe the answer is no, but if they do then I stand corrected. Do they have any proprietary hardware or technology?

I'm sure cutting houses like CBI do consistently (more so than most other places) practise a higher level of 3D craftsmanship. Are they the ONLY company in the whole world that has the equipment (technology, cutting machines etc) and staff available to do so? I believe the answer is also no.

The point of this thread IMOH wasn't to compare the average diamond on the market, it was comparing other super Ideals specifically to CBI stones, is it possible to find a similar stone? I've seen stones with the exact same specifications as CBIs looking through Whiteflash and other companies inventories, so, I'd argue the answer is yes, although I acknowledge that there is a very very limited number of them.

But that was the initial question of the OP, unless I am mistaken, can you find another stone with similar if not identical specifications as a CBI stone, can you find a stone that will be visually identical to a CBI, with the same level of contrast? I can, but no doubt, that isn't the case for most consumers.

 

[diagem]

@daigem - I'm sure you know more about diamond cutting that I ever will, so I really thank you for answering some of my questions. I understand that most cutting houses aim for "good enough" as a product of economic constraints, that it's faster and cheaper to produce a "fairly good" stone rather than the time it takes to create an exemplary one, RapNet is full of them.

However, whilst there might only be a limited number of cutters out there skilled enough to be able to cut beautiful super ideal diamonds, and perhaps more importantly companies willing to invest time and dollars in doing so, I don't call that "secret sauce" I call that maths, science and technology, and as you pointed out the skills of the particular cutter.

Does CBI have proprietary ownership over Super Ideals cut to those specifications? I believe the answer is no, but if they do then I stand corrected. Do they have any proprietary hardware or technology?

I'm sure cutting houses like CBI do consistently (more so than most other places) practise a higher level of 3D craftsmanship. Are they the ONLY company in the whole world that has the equipment (technology, cutting machines etc) and staff available to do so? I believe the answer is also no.

The point of this thread IMOH wasn't to compare the average diamond on the market, it was comparing other super Ideals specifically to CBI stones, is it possible to find a similar stone? I've seen stones with the exact same specifications as CBIs looking through Whiteflash and other companies inventories, so, I'd argue the answer is yes, although I acknowledge that there is a very very limited number of them.

But that was the initial question of the OP, unless I am mistaken, can you find another stone with similar if not identical specifications as a CBI stone, can you find a stone that will be visually identical to a CBI, with the same level of contrast? I can, but no doubt, that isn't the case for most consumers.

As I am not connected to CBI, I wont be able to answer your questions in their regards, but since I did write “....speciality cutting houses like CBI etc...” I though it was clear that I am writing about CBI and the likes, sorry if it wasnt understood.
My issue is not CBI’s stones, its more towards the craftsmanship of the cut. Like I mentioned, I never handled or am familiar with CBI RB’s, I am familiar though with the 3D optical symmetry cutting process and its evolvement. As of present, I have not even met one handful of cutters that have demonstrated the ability to achieve this kind of precision levels that I am writing about. Since I don’t know all the cutters in the world, and because I want to believe there are some more cutters out there who are able to achieve such craftsmanship, I also want to assume that cutters who cut CBI RB’s and the likes have been able to cut within present technology limitations. That is the only way to achieve such results..., no proprietary ownerships, no special or tight specifications and most importantly no proprietary hardware or technology will achieve such levels.

All you have mentioned are tools which help get there, at a certain point of precision all you have mentioned halt their assistance. From that point only intellect will help the cutter move forward, understanding 3D structures, how light handles within a Diamond medium and very important, a light cutters hand. I call this stage a “technological blind zone”. And presently only human intellect can assist.

If and when a cutter masters these obstacles, only then will he or she be able to differentiate themselves and their cuts from the rest.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

All I can say is, stones cut by Yoram are absolute treasures. I am truly thankful to have some of his stones.

 

[the_mother_thing]

I’ll be the first to admit that when it comes to math and/or the vast details of diamond cutting, I am NOT a/the guru. Generally speaking, when I want to better understand something, I look at the available data and simply try to draw possible/reasonable patterns and/or assumptions. Furthermore, I’m confident there is far more that goes into making CBIs the beautiful diamonds they are, and that I’m likely oversimplifying this. My post/observations are in no way intended to ‘question’ HPD, CBI, or those with a role in creating them, and I sincerely hope it’s not taken in that way.

I took a look this morning through the top 21 CBI diamonds on HPD site (“top” being the first 21 on the list, just to make it simple for me to go down the list), and made notes of the specs for each and compared them with what is typically recommended on PS to staying within ‘ideal’ range. My thought was, maybe there is some recurring pattern in the numbers that *might* explain the more ‘contrasty’ appearance that some CBI owners have commented on. I am NOT suggesting that my observations are in fact the reason for the contrasty appearance; it is merely a hypothesis based on my consumer observations (read: non-expert) that I’m sharing with the group for discussion/thoughts. So with that all said ...

Here’s the ‘raw data’ I captured:


From this, I note the following observations:


I further grouped the numbers to be < or > the PS median:


So I’m ASKING (NOT suggesting): is it possible that a ‘secret sauce’ to the perceived more ‘contrasty’ look in CBIs may be to have a spec range somewhat like this:
Table: = or < PS rec median
Depth: = or > PS rec median
CA: = or < PS rec median
PA: = or > PS rec median
LH: = or < PS rec median
Star: > PS rec median

Or am I ENTIRELY in left field, and this has no bearing whatsoever?

 

[cflutist]

As I am not connected to CBI, I wont be able to answer your questions in their regards, but since I did write “....speciality cutting houses like CBI etc...” I though it was clear that I am writing about CBI and the likes, sorry if it wasnt understood.
My issue is not CBI’s stones, its more towards the craftsmanship of the cut. Like I mentioned, I never handled or am familiar with CBI RB’s, I am familiar though with the 3D optical symmetry cutting process and its evolvement. As of present, I have not even met one handful of cutters that have demonstrated the ability to achieve this kind of precision levels that I am writing about. Since I don’t know all the cutters in the world, and because I want to believe there are some more cutters out there who are able to achieve such craftsmanship, I also want to assume that cutters who cut CBI RB’s and the likes have been able to cut within present technology limitations. That is the only way to achieve such results..., no proprietary ownerships, no special or tight specifications and most importantly no proprietary hardware or technology will achieve such levels.

All you have mentioned are tools which help get there, at a certain point of precision all you have mentioned halt their assistance. From that point only intellect will help the cutter move forward, understanding 3D structures, how light handles within a Diamond medium and very important, a light cutters hand. I call this stage a “technological blind zone”. And presently only human intellect can assist.

If and when a cutter masters these obstacles, only then will he or she be able to differentiate themselves and their cuts from the rest.

Beautiful explanation, Yoram. GemConcepts and Crafted by Infinity sound very much alike. You’re also one of the only two diamond cutting companies that regularly visit PS so it’s nice to hear your perspective on this.


As a Gemologist(GIA) for several decades I will say that CBI is very different than the usual factories cutting diamonds in a wide range of shapes and qualities. As a boutique cutter, CBI cuts only about 1,000 diamonds a year.

CBI is a small team with only one focus. They use the same selection standards, the same planning and the same approach to produce the same visual results for each diamond. I’m never surprised when I see people using the same descriptions involving fire and contrast for CBI in review after review. I own five CBI diamonds and I see the very same things.


High Performance Diamonds only sells CBI, so every HPD diamond is also consistent. That’s what this is all about. Consistent results that are not captured by numbers on a piece of paper. It doesn’t take away from the beauty of diamonds sold by other vendors. Not at all. It simply explains the consistent reviews and comments about HPD and CBI. I really don’t get why this bothers some people. Why can’t it be a positive?


Yoram, I hope you get to see CBI diamonds soon, because your posts reflect what they discuss in their Meet The Cutter events, where they also talk about the “technological blind zone.” I believe you would get along wonderfully with Paul, John and Lieve of CBI. And I would love to be a fly on the wall for the discussions you would have.