What is your opinion on transgender women....

[kenny]

You make it sound like it’s a choice. Which it definitely is not.

Plus, at this point you’re just being a creeper and a perv, DF! But then again.... we all know that about you! Lol

eta: Poor Ella waking up from her slumber. Resets her “it has been ____ days since an incident” sign.

You wrote, "Plus, at this point you’re just being a creeper and a perv, DF! But then again.... we all know that about you! Lol"

What? ... Excuse me ... how dare you write, "We all know that about you! Lol."
Oh Really?
Please speak for yourself.
You do NOT represent me in your "all".

Please cease this gang-mentality crap of stating "we all' anything.
Shame on you!

You owe DF and apology for your crap.

If you disagree, fine.
Express your perspective without the dishonest crap.
If you feel someone has violated PS terms report their post.

 

[Spring Day]

You wrote, "Plus, at this point you’re just being a creeper and a perv, DF! But then again.... we all know that about you! Lol"

What? ... Excuse me ... how dare you write, "We all know that about you! Lol."
Oh Really?
Please speak for yourself.
You do NOT represent me in your "all".

Please cease this gang-mentality crap of stating "we all' anything.
Shame on you!

You owe DF and apology for your crap.

Please stop being angry and read my new post.

 

[kenny]

Please stop being angry and read my new post.

I read it.

How dare you tell me to stop being angry.
What you have posted makes me angry.

Who the hell do think you are telling me to stop being angry?
You've made me angry.

Sheesh!

Nothing in PS forum Policies says anger is not allowed.
Who do you think you are?!?

 

[Matata]

And the thread will be closing in 3, 2 1 due to egos.....

 

[Spring Day]

I read it.

How dare you tell me to stop being angry.
What you have posted makes me angry.

Who the hell do think you are telling me to stop being angry?
You've made me angry.

Sheesh!

Nothing in PS forum Policies says anger is not allowed.
Who do you think you are?!?

At this point I’m not sure if this is sarcasm or real anger but, I will reiterate that I apologize that it could have come off as an insult with the general public not knowing my prior relationship with DF. And that I appreciate you sticking up for him if it really had been someone coming to just insult him because I agree that is not ok. So even though you’re questioning who I think I am, I think we should put our anger aside and just agree to resolve this issue as a misunderstanding. Thank you for being a good friend to DF, @kenny.

 

[lovedogs]

Are we going to just ignore that DFs post that @Spring Day replied to is mindbogglingly offensive? @kenny it's your right to be angry, but I feel as though your anger may be misplaced.

 

[Matata]

Are we going to just ignore that DFs post that @Spring Day replied to is mindbogglingly offensive?

Have you reported it? Seems the best way to handle it would be report it and let admin decide if it should be deleted.
edited to add: With rare exception, I've had him on ignore since 2016 so I don't have an opinion.

 

[telephone89]

**edited by moderator, we don't allow misgendering here**

What a disgusting attitude. No room for this kind of anti-trans attitude in this day and age. You should be ashamed of yourself. You know you are being offensive and insulting to a wide sect of people and instead of educating yourself, you double, triple and quadruple down. Just gross.

For anyone claiming biological advantages - why has no one banned Michael Phelps from competing? His body produces half as much lactic acid as a normal swimmer, that shouldn't be allowed because it's "not fair" to other swimmers. No one gives a shit, and in fact praises him for it. His extra large hands and feet serve to propel him forward at a faster rate than others. Where is the line on what's an advantage thats ok, and whats not?

I'm not sure if this thread is specifically about Caster Semenya, but she isn't trans, she is intersex.

Opinion | The discrimination against Caster Semenya is unwarranted

Olympian swimmer and gold medalist Michael Phelps is genetically endowed with a proportionally longer wingspan, larger than average hands and feet and a double-jointed chest. These seemingly arbitrary differences are all advantages for Phelps in the sport of swimming, helping him get ahead with...

dailynorthwestern.com

Ten ethical flaws in the Caster Semenya decision on intersex in sport

Athlete Caster Semenya will need to take hormone-lowering agents, or have surgery, if she wishes to continue her career in her chosen events. But the decision to ban her is flawed on many grounds.

theconversation.com

 

[PreRaphaelite]

I‘ve been interested in understanding the challenges of Transgender persons‘ lives for a while now. I am in the LGBT community and I’m learning how to navigate the world without misgendering people and it’s not always easy or clear-cut. I’m trying my best.

One of the things I have done is try to hear other people’s points of view. One of the channels I watch is Natalie Wynn’s.

https://youtube.com/c/ContraPoints

 

[AprilBaby]

Has there ever been a case of a female to male athlete who has won state competition over other males?

 

[Matata]

why has no one banned Michael Phelps from competing? His body produces half as much lactic acid as a normal swimmer, that shouldn't be allowed because it's "not fair" to other swimmers. No one gives a shit, and in fact praises him for it. His extra large hands and feet serve to propel him forward at a faster rate than others. Where is the line on what's an advantage thats ok, and whats not?

This is a false equivalence. Phelps does not have a genetic disorder such as Castor. Phelps could not participate in women's events based on the features you mentioned nor could he use those features to claim he is a different gender.

There is a distinction that exists between intersex people with DSD and trans people. There may be trans people who also have DSD but I'm assuming that the controversy in sports related to trans athletes is that it is their psychology that differs from their sex chromosomes and that even when on hormone therapy, they are seen as having an advantage over competitors who are not trans.

If there ever comes a time that science can categorically prove that trans athletes have an advantage over other athletes based solely on their trans status, then maybe it would give me pause. Until then, they should be permitted to compete per their gender identity. At the same time, though, the concerns of non trans athletes should be heard and not simply silenced and labeled as biased or some sort of phobia.

One way to solve the controversy is to kill the separation of sexes in athletics. Men and women compete on the same teams in their respective sports regardless of gender identity or sex. That would be interesting.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

**edited by moderator, we don't allow misgendering here**

I think this post was in jest and a lot of humor passes me by

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

This is a false equivalence. Phelps does not have a genetic disorder such as Castor. Phelps could not participate in women's events based on the features you mentioned nor could he use those features to claim he is a different gender.

There is a distinction that exists between intersex people with DSD and trans people. There may be trans people who also have DSD but I'm assuming that the controversy in sports related to trans athletes is that it is their psychology that differs from their sex chromosomes and that even when on hormone therapy, they are seen as having an advantage over competitors who are not trans.

If there ever comes a time that science can categorically prove that trans athletes have an advantage over other athletes based solely on their trans status, then maybe it would give me pause. Until then, they should be permitted to compete per their gender identity. At the same time, though, the concerns of non trans athletes should be heard and not simply silenced and labeled as biased or some sort of phobia.

One way to solve the controversy is to kill the separation of sexes in athletics. Men and women compete on the same teams in their respective sports regardless of gender identity or sex. That would be interesting.

That would kill woman's cricket which is only now starting to be recognized and getting descent airplay and respect from fans both male and female

 

[LemonMoonLex]

 

[yssie]

Men and women compete on the same teams in their respective sports regardless of gender identity or sex. That would be interesting.

I agree with @lissyflo on this - the only reason the separation exists is because in general the most athletically-capable women can’t compete in physical realms with the most athletically-capable men. That’s just raw power - something that (in general) training and strategy can’t equalize for. If sports was gender-neutral I think only athletically-minimal sports like chess would see female (I don’t actually know how to define “female”, so I’ll say born XX and identifying as female) superstars...

Why we call chess a “sport” is a whole different subject that I won’t get into.

 

[PreRaphaelite]

Anita Sarkesian
As a female gamer, I’ve enjoyed watching her and re-thinking some of my assumptions

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

I agree with @lissyflo on this - the only reason the separation exists is because in general the most athletically-capable women can’t compete in physical realms with the most athletically-capable men. That’s just raw power - something that (in general) training and strategy can’t equalize for. If sports was gender-neutral I think only athletically-minimal sports like chess would see female (I don’t actually know how to define “female”, so I’ll say born XX and identifying as female) superstars...

Why we call chess a “sport” is a whole different subject that I won’t get into.

Well horsy type sports are gender natural which is kinda cool be it horse racing or show jumping - 3 day eventing type stuff.
Any young boy who goes to pony club has my admiration !

Motor racing (defiantly a sport) is also gender nutural, but there is a definite gender imbalance in those disciplines that id like to see improved on
There are definatly woman out there who are very talented drivers, the sponsors and owners
could do a lot more for them

Sorry to now get off topic but
actually woman's sport needs a helping hand full stop

Its been wonderful here to see the development in recent years of woman's cricket and woman's rugby, at all levels,
The cricketers lagging behind the rugby gals are finally getting professional contracts long over due

Women's cricket had a load of problems that was fixed by starting at the top by appointing a woman as boss of NZ cricket (so she's the men's boss too), the men's game has not suffered in the slightest by her tenure

I just still can't beleave how excitting the woman's game is to watch on tv - they are just as skilled as the men

I think back to my school girl cricket where we played on subpar pitches, broken down nets and 2nd or 3rd hand cast off gear from the boys and we had the crappiest coaches

 

[Matata]

I agree with @lissyflo on this - the only reason the separation exists is because in general the most athletically-capable women can’t compete in physical realms with the most athletically-capable men. That’s just raw power - something that (in general) training and strategy can’t equalize for. If sports was gender-neutral I think only athletically-minimal sports like chess would see female (I don’t actually know how to define “female”, so I’ll say born XX and identifying as female) superstars...

To me that reasoning legitimizes the argument that trans women don't belong in women's sports. Trans women are biologically male and the most athletically capable female can't compete with that raw power, right? My head spins.

Agree about chess. That's a discussion to be had over craft cocktails while dining on a 5-star Michelin meal as is my prejudice against professional athletes competing in the Olympics.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

To me that reasoning legitimizes the argument that trans women don't belong in women's sports. Trans women are biologically male and the most athletically capable female can't compete with that raw power, right? My head spins.

Agree about chess. That's a discussion to be had over craft cocktails while dining on a 5-star Michelin meal as is my prejudice against professional athletes competing in the Olympics.

We used to get sheep dog trialing on tv, it could actually be pretty excitting
The other day a woman broke a sheep shearing record and it made big news (that sounds too much like work to be a sport)

And with skateboarding now an Olympic sport i will not let any man make off handed comments about rhythmic gymnastics or synchronized swimming ever again !

 

[lovedogs]

What a disgusting attitude. No room for this kind of anti-trans attitude in this day and age. You should be ashamed of yourself. You know you are being offensive and insulting to a wide sect of people and instead of educating yourself, you double, triple and quadruple down. Just gross.

For anyone claiming biological advantages - why has no one banned Michael Phelps from competing? His body produces half as much lactic acid as a normal swimmer, that shouldn't be allowed because it's "not fair" to other swimmers. No one gives a shit, and in fact praises him for it. His extra large hands and feet serve to propel him forward at a faster rate than others. Where is the line on what's an advantage thats ok, and whats not?

I'm not sure if this thread is specifically about Caster Semenya, but she isn't trans, she is intersex.

Opinion | The discrimination against Caster Semenya is unwarranted

Olympian swimmer and gold medalist Michael Phelps is genetically endowed with a proportionally longer wingspan, larger than average hands and feet and a double-jointed chest. These seemingly arbitrary differences are all advantages for Phelps in the sport of swimming, helping him get ahead with...

dailynorthwestern.com

Ten ethical flaws in the Caster Semenya decision on intersex in sport

Athlete Caster Semenya will need to take hormone-lowering agents, or have surgery, if she wishes to continue her career in her chosen events. But the decision to ban her is flawed on many grounds.

theconversation.com

All of this. Yes.

 

[lovedogs]

I‘ve been interested in understanding the challenges of Transgender persons‘ lives for a while now. I am in the LGBT community and I’m learning how to navigate the world without misgendering people and it’s not always easy or clear-cut. I’m trying my best.

One of the things I have done is try to hear other people’s points of view. One of the channels I watch is Natalie Wynn’s.

https://youtube.com/c/ContraPoints

I love her channel.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Now my brain hurts.
DF, you owe me some beers.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Nope. It wasn’t an insult. DF and my relationship goes way back and we’ve said worse stuff to each other in jest.

We have been enemies for many years now. No need to apologize...

 

[Dancing Fire]

You owe DF and apology for your crap.

Kenny, thanks for sticking up for me, but I don't think any PSers can anger me enough to be mad at them...

 

[Un_Petit_Rayon_de_Soleil]

Well horsy type sports are gender natural which is kinda cool be it horse racing or show jumping - 3 day eventing type stuff.
Any young boy who goes to pony club has my admiration !

Motor racing (defiantly a sport) is also gender nutural, but there is a definite gender imbalance in those disciplines that id like to see improved on
There are definatly woman out there who are very talented drivers, the sponsors and owners
could do a lot more for them

Sorry to now get off topic but
actually woman's sport needs a helping hand full stop

Its been wonderful here to see the development in recent years of woman's cricket and woman's rugby, at all levels,
The cricketers lagging behind the rugby gals are finally getting professional contracts long over due

Women's cricket had a load of problems that was fixed by starting at the top by appointing a woman as boss of NZ cricket (so she's the men's boss too), the men's game has not suffered in the slightest by her tenure

I just still can't beleave how excitting the woman's game is to watch on tv - they are just as skilled as the men

I think back to my school girl cricket where we played on subpar pitches, broken down nets and 2nd or 3rd hand cast off gear from the boys and we had the crappiest coaches

This is so true. All of it. I am only going to address the horse sport part of it because it's the World I live in. My daughter competes every weekend with men and women. It's pretty even across the board at her level. When she was younger it was more female dominant (more so because boys generally show more in the higher jumping levels) and now it's about 50/50. I don't think one sex or the other makes a huge difference in equestrian sports. I do tend to see men do the sport slightly longer and that is usually because women will end up starting families and not all return. So some sports can be equally performed regardless of gender.

 

[icy_jade]

One way to solve the controversy is to kill the separation of sexes in athletics. Men and women compete on the same teams in their respective sports regardless of gender identity or sex. That would be interesting.

Then in nearly all the athletics competitions, the men will win. Just see the world records. The fastest ever 100m woman world record holder will not be able to run in the 100m men’s finals in the last olympics.

Edit: just did some reading and wow this is a complicated topic. Shall leave it to experts to decide but thought this article was quite informative: Link to NBC

 

[Matata]

Interesting articles.

Science | AAAS

www.sciencemag.org

Trans women retain athletic edge after a year of hormone therapy, study finds

The findings raise questions about current Olympic guidelines, but the lead author cautions against using them to back bans in recreational and school sports.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[yssie]

To me that reasoning legitimizes the argument that trans women don't belong in women's sports. Trans women are biologically male and the most athletically capable female can't compete with that raw power, right? My head spins.

Agree about chess. That's a discussion to be had over craft cocktails while dining on a 5-star Michelin meal as is my prejudice against professional athletes competing in the Olympics.

 

[Matata]

@yssie, did you see the articles I just posted? Looks as though at around 2 yrs into hormone therapy, trans athletes have no advantage over cis athletes.

 

[yssie]

@yssie, did you see the articles I just posted? Looks as though at around 2 yrs into hormone therapy, trans athletes have no advantage over cis athletes.

I haven’t read them yet - I’m on the road, just checked into PS on a petrol stop! They’re on my to do list. This is an interesting subject - and I recognise that my “interesting subject” is someone else’s “excruciating day to day”.

A few days ago I saw on Twitter that the White House contact form now asks for preferred pronouns instead of gender! On some topics - I feel that “equal” might not be “fair”... But I don’t know enough about this one to voice an opinion.