What is your opinion on transgender women....

[Dancing Fire]

competing against female athletes is it fair to do so? IMO, no!

 

[Spring Day]

Hmmm... DF seems bored. Time to open up a can of worms?

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Nope
its not fare in most sports

 

[lovedogs]

This will almost certainly get closed down because it's a controversial topic. But transgender women are women, same as transgender men are men. So yes, transwomen should be able to compete in women's sports, and transmen in men's sports.

The arguments about "biological advantage" are disingenuous (at best) because there are about a million biological advantages. Born tall? Advantage? Born muscular? Advantage.

Second of all, the number of transwomen who are going to be at the highest echalon of sports (in response to arguments about transwomen "taking the spots" of women who were born female), are very small. If being born male is some miniscule advantage, then so be it. Lump it in with all of the other biological advantages in the world.

 

[Spring Day]

This will almost certainly get closed down because it's a controversial topic. But transgender women are women, same as transgender men are men. So yes, transwomen should be able to compete in women's sports, and transmen in men's sports.

The arguments about "biological advantage" are disingenuous (at best) because there are about a million biological advantages. Born tall? Advantage? Born muscular? Advantage.

Second of all, the number of transwomen who are going to be at the highest echalon of sports (in response to arguments about transwomen "taking the spots" of women who were born female), are very small. If being born male is some miniscule advantage, then so be it. Lump it in with all of the other biological advantages in the world.

To all this, I say thank you.

 

[lovedogs]

To all this, I say thank you.

I feel strongly about this. I was an athlete in HS and college (certainly not anywhere near at the highest level, but high enough to have acquaintances at those high levels) and have seen some truly abhorrent stuff posted about this in the last few days. It makes me sick and it's nothing more than a cover for bigotry and transphobia. Not ok and needs to be called out for what it is. Masking intolerance with "concern" for women's sports.

 

[kenny]

DF, don't play with worms.

 

[HollyJane]

I'm sympathetic to the transgender folks who were medically ambiguous at birth, and doctors and their parents assigned a gender to them then at birth without any growth and input from the child first.

 

[TripEx]

İ think this is against the PS rules

 

[kenny]

The whole oo

İ think this is against the PS rules

Which PS policy does this topic violate?

Forum Policies

Updated October 3rd, 2017 for clarity) The forum is a cooperative endeavor. To maintain a community conducive to quality, members must agree to the following terms before using this system. By using this messaging system, you agree to abide by the following simple common sense rules as well as...

www.pricescope.com

 

[TripEx]

İm.here for information on jewellery not political rubbish or sports anything in between. Find an appropriaye platform for that i believe it falls under the

'

Political and Contentious Discussion Ban​

 

[Dancing Fire]

The whole oo


Which PS policy does this topic violate?

 

[kenny]

İm.here for information on jewellery not political rubbish or sports anything in between. Find an appropriaye platform for that i believe it falls under the

'

Political and Contentious Discussion Ban​

I just once again scanned PS' rules, looking for the terms "Contentious" and "Sports".
I did not see either.
BTW, using a large bold font is not an argument supporting to your claim.
If those two terms are in PS' Policies please prove it by posting the Forum Policy section and policy number.

By registering we have all agreed to follow PS policies, not the sensitivities and preferences of each individual poster.

If you can't defend your claim by citing where it appears in the PS policies, perhaps it is you who should find a forum appropriate for your sensitivities.

You wrote, "İm.here for information on jewellery ..."
Information on jewelry (spelled with only one l BTW) is over at Rocky Talk and a few other PS fora.
Here is PS's description of Hangout forum: "Hang about diamonds and non-diamond issues that are not exactly related to diamond education and consumer’ assistance."

BTW Religion and politics are banned topics, subject to the disclaimers in the Policies you supposedly read when you registered here 12 days ago.

You're new.
Welcome.
It's a great place.
Stick around, but I'd lay low till I learned the policies and culture here.

 

[lovedogs]

**edited by moderator, we don't allow misgendering here**

First of all, a transwoman is not a guy. You are misgendering on purpose and it doesnt help your point. It's also extremely rude.

Secondly, no, it isn't unfair. No more unfair than if a taller or more muscular girl/woman beat your daughter out of a scholarship.

 

[Bron357]

If someone has transitioned to being a woman, then they are a woman.
There has been controversy previously over a similar issue, a female athlete who was suspected to have Klinefelter Syndrome ( XXY) won an Olympic medal as a woman while everyone noted her very “masculine” features.
I would consider it extremely unlikely that many males, not succeeding in sport as male, would take the significant and life changing medical and hormonal treatments steps to transition to female just so they could succeed in sport as a female!
Its not as if a guy can “throw on a dress” and say “now I’m female, let me compete as female”.
And it’s disrespectful to those who choose to transition that they are doing so for any other reason than to be who they want to be.

 

[kenny]

**edited by moderator, we don't allow sexist comments here please**

As a gay male in HS, I took showers with males after PE class.
Where was the rule against that?

Just saying, all this stuff has no resolution that addresses all concerns and pleases everyone.

Today's real life is more complex than old-school life.
Sorry folks.

 

[lissyflo]

You wrote, "İm.here for information on jewellery ..."
Information on jewelry (spelled with only one l BTW)

As an aside, in a thread on acceptance/inclusiveness & on an international forum, maybe just a modicum of respect for the way others might spell?

 

[Snowdrop13]

I see it has been reported already........... that didn’t take long!

 

[dk168]

I see it has been reported already........... that didn’t take long!

Personally I do not have any issue with the subject matter.

To answer DF's original question, no it is not fair for a trans female to compete with other females in the same solo-person sport due to what I believe is unfair advantage of being stronger.

Debatable in group sport, and with my tongue firmly in my cheek, I cite the the scene in the film Dodge Ball when a group of school kids beat the adult team in a preliminary round.

DK

 

[lissyflo]

I’m honestly completely torn on this question. Half of me agrees with everything Lovedogs said. The other half thinks that women’s sports categories only exist in the first place because women, on average, cannot compete with men, on average. I know a ex-national level tennis player and she fully expected her son to be able to routinely beat her by age 12 or so as the effects of puberty hit. When a professional level athlete feels a child will routinely beat her, we’re talking huge biological advantages across the board (muscle mass, limb length, chest/lung capacity). Yes, there are unusually tall/strong women who will routinely take top step on a podium - that’s the nature of top flight sports by definition - but sports categories have historically been driven by the average potential of a competitor group.

There’s a huge problem in the U.K. with lack of sports participation by girls from age 11/12 onwards. I worry how changes to categorisations might affect that for the worse. Please don’t take that the wrong way - I’m not saying that transgender winners wouldn’t inspire young girls, but...I don’t even know what I am saying. It’s a difficult question.

 

[Polished]

The Court of Arbitration for Sport made a call on being eligible to compete in women's events on the basis of testosterone levels, which I think is fair.

" The sports world’s highest court ruled Wednesday that Olympic gold medalist Caster Semenya and other female runners like her with unusually high testosterone must take medication to reduce their levels of the male sex hormone if they want to compete in certain events — a landmark decision with far-reaching ramifications for other women’s sports"

 

[winnietucker]

I just once again scanned PS' rules, looking for the terms "Contentious" and "Sports".
I did not see either.
BTW, using a large bold font is not an argument supporting to your claim.
If those two terms are in PS' Policies please prove it by posting the Forum Policy section and policy number.

By registering we have all agreed to follow PS policies, not the sensitivities and preferences of each individual poster.

If you can't defend your claim by citing where it appears in the PS policies, perhaps it is you who should find a forum appropriate for your sensitivities.

You wrote, "İm.here for information on jewellery ..."
Information on jewelry (spelled with only one l BTW) is over at Rocky Talk and a few other PS fora.
Here is PS's description of Hangout forum: "Hang about diamonds and non-diamond issues that are not exactly related to diamond education and consumer’ assistance."

BTW Religion and politics are banned topics, subject to the disclaimers in the Policies you supposedly read when you registered here 12 days ago.

You're new.
Welcome.
It's a great place.
Stick around, but I'd lay low till I learned the policies and culture here.

All of this seems applicable to me.

 

[kenny]

This topic is perhaps the most challenging I've ever encountered.
I recognize and accept the following ...

1: transwomen are women, and transmen are men .. Period! So let's respect and honor them as such.

2: transwomen who were born physically male, but later "converted", "reassigned", "corrected", (or whatever is the latest PC term for one's gender changing from male to female) AFTER puberty gave that body the physical male characteristics, especially strength.
(I realize that's an incomplete sentence, but as I said this topic challenges me, frankly it really blows my mind making me incapable of even constructing a proper frigging sentence about it.)

That said, people born inter-sexed are, I think, whichever gender they self-identify regardless of what a surgeon did to their genitals at birth.
There is the physical body, the chromosomes, and the physiological self-identity.

Yeah yeah yeah ... 100+ years ago some women were, and are today, stronger than some men, but generally, as a group, males are generally stronger than females.
As I've posted many times exceptions to a generalization do not make the generalization generally true.

Besides greater strength, males are also more likely to have hairy chests and facial hair than are women.
Yes yes yes some women are hairier and stronger than some men.
As I've posted a zillion times ... exceptions to a generalization do not make the generalization generally true.

I'll add that I'm 100% open to being wrong about everything I've posted, and welcome being educated/corrected, but I think this stuff is the ultimate can of worms and whatever is considered correct today (by Glob or science) may not be considered correct at some point in the future.

Now my brain hurts.
DF, you owe me some beers.

 

[Spring Day]

**edited by moderator, we don't allow sexist comments here please**

You make it sound like it’s a choice. Which it definitely is not.

Plus, at this point you’re just being a creeper and a perv, DF! But then again.... we all know that about you! Lol

eta: Poor Ella waking up from her slumber. Resets her “it has been ____ days since an incident” sign.

 

[kenny]

I see it has been reported already........... that didn’t take long!

A thread getting reported does not mean, or prove, that the thread violates forum policies.
Often it just means a net nanny's self-righteousness and piety has gotten his or her knickers in a twist.

 

[Tarquin]

I’m honestly completely torn on this question. Half of me agrees with everything Lovedogs said. The other half thinks that women’s sports categories only exist in the first place because women, on average, cannot compete with men, on average. I know a ex-national level tennis player and she fully expected her son to be able to routinely beat her by age 12 or so as the effects of puberty hit. When a professional level athlete feels a child will routinely beat her, we’re talking huge biological advantages across the board (muscle mass, limb length, chest/lung capacity). Yes, there are unusually tall/strong women who will routinely take top step on a podium - that’s the nature of top flight sports by definition - but sports categories have historically been driven by the average potential of a competitor group.

There’s a huge problem in the U.K. with lack of sports participation by girls from age 11/12 onwards. I worry how changes to categorisations might affect that for the worse. Please don’t take that the wrong way - I’m not saying that transgender winners wouldn’t inspire young girls, but...I don’t even know what I am saying. It’s a difficult question.

Serena and Venus Williams are undoubtedly the greatest of all time female tennis players. On any given day any of the male players ranked at 100th best and above could beat either of them easily.

What to do with this situation is the problem. You never hear about transmen being a problem in mens sports because they aren't beating biological men. Its an issue in women's sorts because they are taking the titles and scholarships that had been set aside for female athletes.

 

[kenny]

... Plus, at this point you’re just being a creeper and a perv, DF! But then again.... we all know that about you! Lol

LOL? Indeed!

IMO this is the most offensive post in this thread.
I think you owe DF and apology.

If you feel a poster has violated PS policy, rather than insulting a poster, report it.

 

[Missy]

It isn’t a choice. Transgender women are women and transgender men are men.

Stop trying to control other’s lives. This isn’t a choice. It’s not like the decision to get or not get the Covid vaccine which is a choice. Just saying. But I digress.

Why are so many threatened by who others are?

 

[Spring Day]

LOL? Indeed!

IMO this is the most offensive post in this thread.
I think you owe DF and apology.

If you feel a poster has violated PS policy report it, rather an insulting poster.

Nope. It wasn’t an insult. DF and my relationship goes way back and we’ve said worse stuff to each other in jest.

edit: But let me say that I appreciate you sticking up for him. It is hard to assess tone on a forum and it could have come across as an insult and for that, I apologize.

 

[Matata]

I have no idea how this issue will be settled fairly in the sports world but I hope a solution is found that is fair to all.

Stuff that rattles in my mind when pondering the issue:

One can change gender but one cannot change sex (yet). A trans woman is genetically male. The packaging has changed, not the contents and the contents and whether they impart an advantage over biological women seems to be the issue.

What are the reasons we have male, female, handicapped sports divisions and should those reasons be taken into consideration when debating the issue of trans athletes?

What about trans males? Do genetically male athletes feel disadvantaged by the participation of trans males? If not, why not and should the answer to that have an impact on the trans female issue?

Do the hormones trans women have to take dissipate the alleged advantages they had over genetic females prior to hormone therapy? Should that matter?

A lot of athletes are enhanced in some way, particularly at the elite level, with sport enhancing drugs, special diets, etc in an attempt to make them faster, stronger, more better.

What about people with sex chromosome abnormalities such as AIS? Those with AIS are resistant to androgens, are genetically male, and have some or all of the physical traits of a woman.

Should genetics be the sole deciding factor?

Should criteria be established for determining which genders can participate in which sports and what on earth would those be?