shape
carat
color
clarity

What is transitional cut?

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.

Eva17

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 13, 2006
Messages
1,017
What is a transitional cut diamond? Is it a cut that would be easily identified if one was to walk in to a store

and ask for one? (let's pretend we r referring to a quality B&M)


What does the cert say to label such a cut?

And finally, what cutting is required to make it qualify as transitional? (high crown, wider lgf's, etc...)
 

neatfreak

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Messages
14,167
No, they are not easily identifiable except by someone who really knows antique stones and in my experience those stores are few and far between. It is a stone that was cut during the transition from older cuts (OEC) to what we consider the modern RB.
 

Allison D.

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
2,282
Eva, transitionals aren''t necessarily always easily identified; they are stones that move away from European cut and toward today''s modern RB. If the stone comes with a grading report, it will likely call it a Transitional if the lab is familiar with/grades older cuts. I have a transitional with an EGL grading report, and it''s called transitional.

Below is a description that might help you by Al Gilbertson, who''s an authority on antique cuts.

Transitional Cuts (transitioning between the European cuts and the modern round brilliant cuts) are typically circa 1940-1950.
The term’s wide use seems to have originated with an article by David Federman in 1985 (he may have gotten it from someone else in the trade). This generally describes a cutting style where the crown and pavilion angles are in the range associated with the modern brilliant, the table size varies from 40 to 60% (depends on who is using the term), but the lower halves are still short. The culet can be non-existent or somewhat large (again, it depends on who is using the term). This style of cutting originated with Henry Morse about 1870 and was the American Cut, Scientific Cut and early version of the Ideal Cut. It went away in the 1940’s, when lower haves were lengthened to the current range of 70% and more (previously 55 to 65% was typical).
 

Eva17

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 13, 2006
Messages
1,017
so are there basic rules of identity that could be used to ask a cutter to duplicate.


i have been wondering about this since storm mentioned to shady that she could have her stone recut as a transitional....
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
58,471
I imagine you''d need to use a cutter who was familiar with that kind of design. And I doubt most jewelry stores would have access to transitional cut stones. You''d need to deal with a jeweler who specializes in old stones such as Singlestone.
 

Kelli

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 27, 2008
Messages
5,455
Thanks for starting this thread. I love transitioinal cuts! I haven''t seen any that I know of in person, but they take the most beautiful pictures. Some of my favorite rings on PS have transitional cuts.
 

Eva17

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 13, 2006
Messages
1,017
Allison, thanks for that description!

hopefully storm can chime in and do some fun mockups for us!!


please posts some your transitional stones for all you lucky people who own one...


thanks!!
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
The biggest difference is oec were usually cut using the whole rough and transitional and RB''s are made from rough that has been cut before it is polished.
They overlapped for several years so getting a solid cut off time frame one to the other is not easy.
An oec cut from for example a broken crystal could have the exact characteristics of a transitional and have been cut decades before the transitional period.
 

K9

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
776
All of the posts recently about old cuts have been most informative! And a big thank you to Allison for posting the descriptions of each cut by Al - very interesting!
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
oec over rough.
All of the blue outside the red lines is waste as it is ground up into powder.
This one has no culet where normally there would be one.

oecoverrough.gif
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Transitional
The blue outside the red lines on the bottom is waste the top will be cut into another diamond.
This one has no culet where normally there would be one.

transitional.gif
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
60/60 RB
The blue outside the red lines on the bottom is waste the top will be cut into another diamond.
Woops forgot the cut line it goes across the top of the table like the one above.

modernRB.gif
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
that also shows why if someone were going to cut oec style cuts today without being able to pick rough with uncuttable tops they would have to cost as much as high end ideal cuts or more.
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Here would be cutting a modern OEC. (I changed the angles from the best combo as not to give away my work, also would have a larger culet)
As you can see the single stone weight is up slightly but the secondary stone is much smaller.
The main stone would have to be priced higher to make up for it.

modernOEC.gif
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Here they are side by side...
60/60 RB next to a modern oec

modernRBvsModernOEC.gif
 

Eva17

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 13, 2006
Messages
1,017
thanks so much Karl!!!! you ROCK!


that is exactly the information i was looking for.

thank you for taking the time to produce those!!!!
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Date: 1/23/2009 2:03:46 PM
Author: Eva17
thanks so much Karl!!!! you ROCK!



that is exactly the information i was looking for.


thank you for taking the time to produce those!!!!
your welcome
its fun!
 

LtlFirecracker

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
4,837
I am having some trouble seeing the difference between the transitional the the modern RB. Can someone help me out?
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Date: 1/23/2009 2:15:19 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker
I am having some trouble seeing the difference between the transitional the the modern RB. Can someone help me out?
lgf% see arrows

transitional1.gif
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,655
Karl;

You have made a geat series of slides on this topic. Why not put an article together to explain the story in more detail and people will be able to find it much more easily in the Journal section than in the old message threads?

I use "transitional" as an adjective not as a noun because the change point between old European cut to 1960''s Modern cut is not the only important "transition" period where diamond cutting parameters changed. There were diamonds cut in the Renaissance which gradually morphed into what we recognize today and old mine cut. Old mine cuts morphed, transitioned, into old European cuts over time, not in one immediate change. Truthfully, the diamonds commonly sold in the 1960''s through the 1980''s have once again transitioned into the more Ideal style that is so much better accepted today than 30+ years ago.

There are transition renaissance cuts, transition cut old miners, transition cut old european cuts, and over the past ten years there has been a transition to currently popular nouveau ideal cuts. I agree most often we find the term transition cut is generally used in regard to OEC to Modern Cut, but being specific with words prevents mis-communication.
 

Eva17

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 13, 2006
Messages
1,017
Date: 1/23/2009 4:08:52 PM
Author: oldminer



There are transition renaissance cuts, transition cut old miners, transition cut old european cuts, and over the past ten years there has been a transition to currently popular nouveau ideal cuts. I agree most often we find the term transition cut is generally used in regard to OEC to Modern Cut, but being specific with words prevents mis-communication.


very interesting information. is there any way to see the visual difference between these cuts? would it be in the 100 years book?
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Date: 1/23/2009 4:08:52 PM
Author: oldminer
Karl;


You have made a geat series of slides on this topic. Why not put an article together to explain the story in more detail and people will be able to find it much more easily in the Journal section than in the old message threads?
Dave,
I know what people commonly refer to as the different cuts but the history I am not up to the level needed for an article.
If someone who knows more than I do about the history is interested in doing one I can redo the graphics and make them article quality for them to use.
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,655
Maybe you and Allison D. could conspire to create the text and the graphics. It just sounds like something that would be of long term, lasting appeal, to consumers and to members of the trade, too.
 

beaujolais

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 4, 2007
Messages
2,220
Question on Storm''s last diagram:

The arrows point to both lower girdle facets and pavilion main facets. Is the lgf percentage - the percentage of length of the lower girdle facets compared to the pavillion mains?

Also, the lower girdle facets in oecs were shorter than they are in the modern rb, yes?

---

Btw, wonderful diagrams and info.
36.gif
36.gif
36.gif
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Date: 1/25/2009 7:34:52 PM
Author: sonomacounty
Question on Storm''s last diagram:


The arrows point to both lower girdle facets and pavilion main facets. Is the lgf percentage - the percentage of length of the lower girdle facets compared to the pavillion mains?


Also, the lower girdle facets in oecs were shorter than they are in the modern rb, yes?


---


Btw, wonderful diagrams and info.
36.gif
36.gif
36.gif

lgf% is how far the lower girdle facets go down the pavilion.
yes oecs also had short lgf%
 

beaujolais

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 4, 2007
Messages
2,220
Thanks Storm. This is something I''ve been working on understanding for awhile. I''m beginning to get it. Your diagram helped me pull it together.

Thanks for the link. Yep, eye candy for sure.

Sonoma

---

Storm = diamond genius & cutting edge thinker
 

risingsun

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 19, 2006
Messages
5,549
Date: 1/25/2009 10:22:31 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 1/25/2009 7:34:52 PM
Author: sonomacounty
Question on Storm''s last diagram:


The arrows point to both lower girdle facets and pavilion main facets. Is the lgf percentage - the percentage of length of the lower girdle facets compared to the pavillion mains?


Also, the lower girdle facets in oecs were shorter than they are in the modern rb, yes?


---


Btw, wonderful diagrams and info.
36.gif
36.gif
36.gif

lgf% is how far the lower girdle facets go down the pavilion.
yes oecs also had short lgf%
This makes sense! Thanks for posting this information.
 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
Be a part of the community Get 3 HCA Results
    Did You See January 2023's Throwback Thursdays?
    Did You See January 2023's Throwback Thursdays? - 01/25
    Top 5 Jewelry Trends For 2023
    Top 5 Jewelry Trends For 2023 - 01/22
    Chinese New Year 2023 Jewelry
    Chinese New Year 2023 Jewelry - 01/20
Top