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What happens to upgrade policies when current ownership of companies changes eg Whiteflash, CBI etc

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by fenestrate, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. fenestrate
    Rough_Rock

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    by fenestrate » Apr 9, 2018
    Thank you too! That is so kind of you. I never really felt I had anything to say as most questions I think of are answered via search, but these matters have been bothering me. You know, I think you have hit the nail on the head - a couple of people who joined only a few months ago now suggest large volumes of stones. Having bought only one ring, I can’t see how they can then be recommending various retailers with such certainty after say four months on the diamond forum, and after having arrived at diamonds completely new.

    Yes I have been very thorough with my YouTube GoG homework! After I posted I suddenly had a horrible thought that maybe she wasn’t his daughter and I had it all wrong..!

    It does creep me out a little though, when someone posts an issue with a vendor, and a prosumer comes on to defend the vendor before the vendor themselves comes on. These long term relationships are inevitable, but somehow it feels as if it undermines the objectivity of the prosumer, and the reputation of the vendor a little too, when that happens. I don’t know why exactly I feel that way.

    Also I do stand by the idea of witnessing an odd drift in threads sometimes. I’ll keep an eye out and post here if I sense it happening. If I’m wrong or misinterpreting it I can be put right!
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
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  2. MissGotRocks
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    by MissGotRocks » Apr 9, 2018
    Honest discussion and discourse usually makes all things better. We can all benefit from constructive criticism; we just have to be aware of each other's feelings and motivations. I think if there were any poster among us that was not acting in good faith we would all be willing to call them out. Some posters are more experienced than others and probably speak accordingly. I have lots of respect for people that freely give of their time to help guide others. I wish that I had the benefit of the internet, this forum and online vendors back in the day when my diamond journey began. It might not have been as colorful but it sure would have been more productive and cost effective!

    I would never go so far as to insinuate that you are imagining anything. I think there can be huge differences in perceptions at times but I have lived long enough to trust gut instinct. I think any member here would be willing to hear you out but in turn would want you to consider their positions. Hopefully that type of conversation leads to better understanding on everyone's part.
     
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  3. fenestrate
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    by fenestrate » Apr 9, 2018
    This is incredibly generous of you to say. Yes I just wanted to start a dialogue about it, and be educated if I needed to be, and educate if I had anything to offer. I have certainly benefited enough from the collective wisdom of the forum to have great respect for all who contribute, and really appreciate your kind and measured response.
     
  4. aljdewey
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    by aljdewey » Apr 9, 2018
    So interesting that you picked up on this too, because I got the same vibe. "Gee, this person's really concerned about information integrity for someone who's been online for a few scant weeks and seems to know an *awful* lot about recommendation patterns." :mrgreen2:

    Mother Thing already posted my exact thoughts on this. In the old days before the internet, neighbors would ask their surrounding neighbors "hey, who did you just hire to re-side your house? It looks great. Are you happy with the job they did? What was your experience with them?"

    That's what PS is. It's the place where you can ask fellow consumers who they've been happy using and learn why. It's also a place where you can learn a bit more about things to be aware of regarding the product you buy. As in the old days, it's the consumer's responsibility to vet the information they get to make sure it aligns with his/her own personal buying criteria. Plain and simple.

    As is true with the neighbors, some will spend all day telling you about their experiences and others just grunt and don't really say much. The ones who are happy to use their time helping others are typically few. This isn't like awarding a government contract either; there is no obligation to make sure all options get equal coverage. If you feel that vendors you like aren't getting enough representation, then open your mouth and contribute your feedback. That's how diversity of opinion happens.

    There's normally a reason the cream rises to the top; no one wants to work with a so-so company, and if it were easy for all companies to be exceptional, there's be more of them doing it, right? Superlatives are the ones who focus on getting it right more than the average contender.

    It's beyond me why some of the same players from years ago continue to grouse and gripe about the very existence of this format and yet here they stay, griping year in and year out. Crying "I don't like it here, I don't like the way it works here" while sticking around is hollow. It's too bad that energy isn't put into contributing something of meaning to create more diversity of opinion. If the model here really disturbs or offends you, withhold your participation here and instead participate in/support other models you believe in if you can find them.
     
    


    


  5. diamondseeker2006
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    by diamondseeker2006 » Apr 9, 2018
    I agree with @aljdewey completely (last paragraph AMEN!), other than I am thinking of specific others and not necessarily the original poster of this thread who maybe really hasn't ever registered before now and has at least been reasonable in expressing his concerns and has been open to the responses. (longest sentence ever)
     
  6. pyramid
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    by pyramid » Apr 9, 2018
    I am amazed that fenestrate takes the words right out of my mouth but can write them in a more educated way. I am quite amazed that this forum does prosper like this and maybe that is why I stuck around after my purchase from WF. I have also dealt with GOG and I have no bias between them.

    When I wrote about Dyson, what I meant was Dyson is a generic brand, when consumer forums speak of it, they speak of the model, then it is up to the customer to buy from a department store of their choice, online, small corner shop who has one only on display, there is no bias. How would you feel if your family had a jeweller and yet I was standing outside in the road recommending to all browsers in the windows, to move on up five doors to another jeweller which I thoroughly recommend. This is how I see the prosumers here acting, I am also in agreement with what fenestrate wrote about how the thread shifts to particular diamonds and next thing we know the customer has reserved it and bought it, also the swaying people to buy low colour is the main thing I see on this forum, nothing wrong with it if it is for you, however people are more or less told bigger is better and you can achieve it if you go lower in colour, or clarity. People don't get time to make up their own minds. I did notice though the comment about people being adults with commonsense and I agree that is true, it is just the way people are sort of pushed to make up their mind, reserve the stone or it will be taken from you, and ofcourse when you reserve you only get 24 hours or so and then you have to make your purchase.

    I am not saying our country is better than yours or any such nonsense, it is just I cannot see this forum existing in the UK, people would be having none of it. Ofcourse diamonds are not a big purchase here as they are just symbolic and not usually larger than half a carat.

    Regarding the upgrade policies I am in agreement with those who feel wrong done by if there is not stock in for them to buy from, however I always thought these policies were for people to get up to the one carat mark or so, and that those buying over 2 carat had enough money really to buy their final diamond already so few, or very few would be interested in upgrading. Ofcourse, back years ago, no one really wanted 6 carat diamonds, well maybe one would be on and it would be someone trying to sell an inheritance. This ofcourse has all changed, I suppose lower colour means larger stones for those who bought 4 carat D colour in the past and they now want 6 carat K colour. There is also no doubt about it this forum is biased towards Cut being king, so incase fenestrate did not know this, these particular vendors make their money on that niche which other and most diamond sellers in the world have no interest in. A bit like graphic equalisers I always say after I found a forum with geaks interested in that above all else in their lives.
     
  7. pyramid
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    by pyramid » Apr 9, 2018
    Oh and incase people don't know, re fenestrate being a new member but reading past posts from years ago, being online means there are millions of people out there like this reading our posts and making connections for whatever reason.

    You know this is a great forum for budding psychologists and sociologists to read and take insights into the various personalities. I remember years ago, I think it was Amethyste getting great unpopularity about her premonition of people buying and not being happy with their purchase that they kept rebuying and selling, also regarding their economic means. There was I remember a certain person, who is actually a vendor now, being the centre of attention about her private life and being told on no uncertain terms what they thought her husband was like, a man they never knew. Infact I remember one of those people who were writing that, cottoned onto me once about the questions I was asking vendors in a very weird way, I remember she had a sewing machine as her avatar and still posts here sometimes. So that is the nature of online forums. I know this is a consumer forum, but can't get my head around why people want to be so helpful for years on the very same subject for years and years. I find this forum interesting to read, for the photos, and also the coloured stones forum and hangout etc and I think that is a more natural way of sticking around than working for vendors for no pay in a biased way. I can see where Aldjewey comes from as she infact works for one of the vendors here or she did anyway. I would like to be helpful if this forum was not biased and sometimes I do reply to posters about things such as girdle reflection and the like but I will not be advertising for vendors who are making multi-million dollars from my recommendation and yet I don't get a weekly payment. It must be a cultural thing because I honestly can't see people from here doing this, maybe to a friend in their own house or office but not online help for everyone for nothing for years and years. I feel sorry for Diamondseeker and people like her to tell the truth because I feel the vendors are using their time and their lives for nothing in return. Not just these vendors but any vendors who have businesses around the edges of an online forum and go home at night and leave prosumers to attract customers to them in the evenings or all day long.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
  8. pyramid
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    by pyramid » Apr 9, 2018
    Oh and by the way, I keep my notes to self ***, to myself, no need to put rude little comments like that and long sentences online. I give up, be exploited if you want to be, I really give up now.
     
  9. aljdewey
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    by aljdewey » Apr 9, 2018
    It prospers because there are participants who value getting insight from other consumers who've walked in their shoes. While you clearly find it distasteful and don't value it at all, others do, and so it continues.

    If you don't get it, that's ok. I don't get why you stick around a place you clearly don't like and constantly complain about, but it's your right to do so. Sometimes, we just have to accept that others value things we don't and just move on.
     
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  10. MissGotRocks
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    by MissGotRocks » Apr 9, 2018
    I am truly not understanding the point of these repeated posts. I understand your point of view although I don't necessarily agree with it. Posters come here asking for help; we are not dragging them in from the streets. These folks have free will and the power of choice. How and why they come to their final decision is anyone's guess. Maybe recommendations ease the burden of decision for them or maybe they take some of the advice to heart and decide to follow it. Fortunately, most of these vendors have good return policies so even upon receipt of a stone, they can always be returned if not satisfactory to the purchaser.

    As you have pointed out, this forum originates in America but it does have its international members. Our customs may not follow those in your country but people are entitled to buying and having whatever their mind and wallet allows. I get the distinct impression that you think this is frivolous and that you don't really approve, but that is simply your opinion. I think that some people would be offended by the comments.

    Dyson is indeed a brand name that can be purchased in many places. An A Cut Above diamond or Crafted by Infinity diamond are exclusive to the vendor and cannot be purchased in different places, i.e., their store AND Amazon and WalMart and the corner jeweler. I do, however, think most posters are aware of the fact that they can only be purchased through the dealer that owns them. I don't see that as bias; it is just a fact.

    Your opinions are solid as are your words but I can't help but wonder if we are missing something here that you are trying to convey. A statement is a statement whether it is made once or a hundred times. Sometimes though, in repetition, it misses its intended target hence the request for clarification.
     
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  11. aljdewey
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    by aljdewey » Apr 9, 2018
    So your chief complaint, if I understand it, is that you can't understand why anyone would stick around to help others without getting paid for it. Is that the real sticky widget for you?

    Some people like to pay it forward. Some people get immense satisfaction and joy from helping others. If you don't get that, it's ok. You don't have to do it. I don't get why you stick around to complain about the format year after year the way you do, but clearly it's what makes you tick, so more power to you.

    And for clarity/accuracy of information: For several years, I was only a consumer here. I enjoyed learning about diamonds, and I enjoyed sharing what I learned with others to help them. Then I did transition into a trade role for a few years - when I did so, it was transparent and disclosed. I stepped out of that role many years ago, and I haven't been around much due to other life priorities.

    From time to time, though, I still stop in. Because I still have a passion for jewelry and gemstones. And you don't have to understand that either, but it is what it is.
     
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  12. pyramid
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    by pyramid » Apr 9, 2018
    Right the pile on again, bye bye. No point in this being bullied by a bunch friends is there. Online friends are the best!
     
  13. aljdewey
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    by aljdewey » Apr 9, 2018
    See, that's where you're wrong. You think people are somehow too stupid to realize that vendors may be benefitting from positive experiences relayed by their clients.

    They aren't. It just doesn't bother them. It bothers YOU. And yet you're the one who stays, calling others stupid. ????
     
  14. the_mother_thing
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    by the_mother_thing » Apr 9, 2018
    Well yea, and thank God for it because the smaller/local & chain jewelers surely never tried to educate me, offer up information about cut quality, etc. when I’ve been in them. If someone doesn’t give a hoot about finding a great-performing diamond and truly getting the best bang for their buck, there’s a ‘maul’-jeweler on every corner of every intersection just waiting to sell ‘mediocre’ diamonds with shady certificates.

    You can buy a steak from Outback, or you can buy a steak from Ruth’s Chris - there’s a market for every buyer out there to appease their budget & needs. Do I eat at Outback, yep! But I also sometimes want something special, a higher level of service, a different environment, and a higher-quality meal, and I appreciate having options and choice.
     
  15. diamondseeker2006
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  16. pyramid
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    by pyramid » Apr 9, 2018
     
  17. pyramid
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    by pyramid » Apr 9, 2018
    In the same vein that diamond buyers should educate themselves to stop biases, e.g. cut is king, and at the same time telling consumers that their local jeweller is lying about colour, well both of these are just as important if not equal.

    Prosumers should educate themselves too, apparently you are saving companies research fees by doing all your work and goodness knows what else

    https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Perspectives_in_Digital_Culture/The_Prosumer_Society
     
  18. pyramid
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    by pyramid » Apr 9, 2018
    What pay it forward for 12 years. I don't see Mara around these parts now. Yes I know you were a consumer, people read and remember, We click on links and get exploited in the same way facebook customers were. Fenestrate wrote he/she had been here for years and there are lots so why are people so surprised that they know about past posters and what they posted, people are interested in diamonds or jewellery so come here and ofcourse they remember. I find it more worrying how people here are being pushovers and don't realise it. As I said let them be as they obviously need to be used for some reason that they don't even know. I read somewhere we like sparklies because we need to be hydrated so are always on the look out for water which diamonds imitate in a way, so who know what we are all looking for.
     
  19. Polished
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    by Polished » Apr 9, 2018
    There's no bullying going on pyramid, it's simply counter argument. The irony of your posts is that you do appear to care about the advice given to people. For instance about going lower in colour to maximize size. If you don't believe people should be giving advice that might be helping a vendor why care?

    If you have knowledge and experience about something it can be fun to use it. It can also be satisfying to assist others on a purchase, where you know that without it people could waste significant money on an inferior product. I would also say that along with the assisting of others, I'm sure those giving advice have picked up invaluable knowledge and ideas for themselves in an area they are passionate about. It is not all about helping vendors make money.

    Aren't vendors likely to keep a policy in place if it is making money for them? An upgrade policy might be enormously valuable for some, not at all for others but it exists because it makes money for the vendor. Whiteflash even extending it's upgrade policy to include a trade-in of half the price of a new setting on designer engagement rings is a further example of this. It's catering to not only an upgrade in diamond but also to a change in taste. An engagement ring is no longer set in stone so to speak. I think it's a truly great policy because taste is something that develops with time but I'm under no doubt that it exists to turn a profit for the organization.
     
  20. bludiva
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    by bludiva » Apr 9, 2018
    Your overall argument is a good one for debate but the way you made your point in this comment is quite rude. If someone enjoys helping others find stones, and it seems a lot of people on these forums do, that's their right. If people come on here and want to take that advice, that's their right also. There's no need to insult people for this.

    Zooming the conversation back out to discuss whether members feel what they get out of the forum is worth what they put into it is a worthy debate. Whether companies trying to create brand evangelists out of their customers are taking advantage is a worthy debate. Whether the forums are subject to trends in taste that unduly influence the buyers that come on here, I think that's a very worthy debate.

    If you look back to old threads it's interesting to see how trends and methods for evaluating stones have changed over time. It reinforces for me that buyers should take everything with a grain of salt and figure out what they like best to their eyes.

    TL;DR I think the arguments you raise are good ones to have but, intentionally or not, the above comments come across as extremely unkind so can this discussion be dialed back to a more civil state?
     
  21. aljdewey
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    by aljdewey » Apr 9, 2018
    It seems to me your biggest point of outrage is that vendors here may be benefitting from increased business. Is that what's chapping you? Does it just somehow really piss you off that vendors who treat their clients well might earn new clients from having provided good service? Sheesh.

    I won't speak for anyone else, but when I did spend time here, what I enjoyed was helping consumers, and as long as that was accomplished, I was happy. I felt really grateful that when I was shopping, folks gave enough of their time and knowledge to help us with information that ensured our money was was spent, and I wanted to give that back to others. If one of the by-products of that effort meant that good vendors also earned more clients who would value what I had valued, that was fine by me, but it was never my purpose and never what kept me here. Perhaps that kind of thing doesn't provide any satisfaction to you, Pyramid. Perhaps you don't enjoy helping others, or perhaps you don't like others benefitting when you do. It's ok that you don't understand it.

    But I find it super ironic that the person who's pointing out others' terms of tenure here is the very person who actually joined before any of us! You joined well before DS, and even a few weeks before me. If you seriously believe that you're somehow saving us lemmings from ourselves, why do you spent 12 years in that effort doing it? It's ok for you to spend 12+ years trying to help people you mistakenly think are simpletons, saving them from themselves........but it's not ok for other participants to spend that same amount of time trying to help buyers learn so they can purchase well? Double standard.

    No one here is being exploited, I can assure you. They just don't agree with you, and I think that's what really chaps your behind. You actually seriously believe that you're the only one smart enough to see the 'big picture'. In reality, you're the only one who seems not to see the true picture at all.

    Mara is quite well; she's on to flowers now, but she'll be thrilled to know you were asking for her. I think she's probably on a number of flower forums now too, with the same spirit of helping she had here.

    And if you're really paying attention, many of us (myself included) aren't here much anymore. Please feel free to check my post history to verify it.

    No one here is stupid. No one is doing fool's work for others without knowing it. You can suspend your efforts to save all of them from their stupid selves. They actually know what they're doing and why they're doing it, even as you don't understand it. They don't need saving.
     
  22. bmfang
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    by bmfang » Apr 10, 2018
    Yikes.:shock:

    There are plenty of us who are happy to provide suggestions out of our free time and volition without expectation of payment in return. I’ve only been a registered member for not that long and a lurker sans membership for many years before then. The sense of community on here far exceeds other forums i’ve been a part of before (and way less snobby than other places I still visit like Watchuseek). Any suggestions I’ve made in the past have been out of a spirit of helpfulness rather than a sense of wanting to be compensated in monetary form. No different than if I in-person recommend products in person to friends and colleagues.
     
  23. CareBear
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    by CareBear » Apr 10, 2018
    So basically you think it is okay for someone to own a 1 carat D stone, but somehow find it offensive that some folks prefer a 2+ carat K? Sounds to me like your angry about something bigger here than some diamond recommendations and upgrade policies.
     
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  24. Texas Leaguer
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    by Texas Leaguer » Apr 10, 2018
    We do keep archives of earlier versions of important web pages such as policies. Originally only A CUT ABOVE were eligible for lifetime trade up. But we expanded the benefit to include all in-house diamonds. I would have to check on when exactly that change occurred, but it's been many years. Feel free to contact us to determine any particulars of your situation.
     
  25. Ella
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    by Ella » Apr 10, 2018
    Folks, personal attacks will not be tolerated and will result in time outs. Keep it general, not personal.
     
  26. the_mother_thing
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    by the_mother_thing » Apr 10, 2018
    Thanks so much, Bryan! I looked at the documents I received with my diamond and thought I might see a notation on the receipt or a pamphlet outlining the policy, but did not. But I’m good, as I’m more of a ‘lateral purchaser’ than an ‘upgrader’. Thanks again! :wavey:
     
  27. Texas Leaguer
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    by Texas Leaguer » Apr 10, 2018
    This is an interesting comment (my bold above) that got me thinking. Is it really the responsibility of peers to paint a full picture?

    I think the picture gets filled in by the gathering of a variety of personal opinions. So the responsibility of the forum is to provide a healthy environment where those opinions can be shared. The visitor takes away that which serves their particular needs.

    Here's a parallel that it brings to my mind. In my role helping to manage our company, I welcome feedback from various sources, and ASK for it regularly from colleagues, staff, customers, and suppliers. I hope that they will each give me honest feedback from THEIR perspective. That helps me see the issue from a variety of angles and enables me to avoid blindspots and formulate my own conclusions with the most complete picture that I can develop. When I give feedback, I try to do so honestly and if I have a strong opinion, to give it forcefully. I know that in situations where other members of our leadership team are asking my opinion, they are gathering feedback from others as well. And I feel a particular duty to them to tell them what they might NOT want to hear, when the situation calls for it. That way they have the best picture possible to make the decisions that are their responsibility to make.

    If, when seeking feedback, I told each person to give me the 'full picture' rather than their opinion, I would get a watered down version of the feedback I was hoping to get. And it would actually be LESS helpful to me. The fact is, I don't expect any one of them to have the full picture, which is why I am going through the exercise in the first place.

    In the same way, I think there is value to all opinions here. Even if some have strong individual preferences or favorite brands. And even if some need to be taken with a few more grains of salt than others. :))
     
  28. Irishgrrrl
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    by Irishgrrrl » Apr 10, 2018
    Brian said this very well. I often see threads where the OP is looking for a diamond with X specifications, and members chime in with various recommendations for different diamonds from multiple vendors. I feel that this gives the OP a selection of nice stones from which to choose, and the OP can read each poster's opinion on why this particular stone would be a good choice. It is then up to the OP to choose for him/herself, after considering all the information presented. Nobody posts on PS hoping to *not* get recommendations and advice, so I'm not sure what else should be expected? :confused:
     
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  29. Squizabel
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    by Squizabel » Apr 10, 2018
    I'm from the UK too but I have to disagree with Pyramid. Most of us are generous and helpful folk with low colour, low clarity, badly cut diamonds because that's all our shops sell :lol:
     
  30. mrs-b
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    by mrs-b » Apr 10, 2018
    Hallo all - bit late to this particular party, but I see my name has come up a couple of times. So here's my view on my situation.

    I wish I'd been told about not being able to get to the high 3 ct range due to the same rough being cut by other vendors less well into 4+ct. But could I have worked that out myself? Sure could have! And I really can't gripe with someone for treating me as smarter than I am, or expecting me to do my own due diligence.

    Would I have done things differently if I'd known? Sure would! I'd have bought the bigger WF diamond right from the get-go when I'd had the chance!

    Do I feel misled? Not at all. Well, only by my own stupidity. I've corralled myself now when I had a wonderful, clear way forward originally. (Does this qualify as a 'rock block'??)

    As for vendors - I've had good dealings with all of them. I recommend WF, GOG, BGD, VC, HPD - because I know exactly what people will get. James Allen and BN require a bit more skill, but there's EXCELLENT stones on their site; they just need a teensy bit more work to find.

    I think people spending time helping others learn about a topic they already love and are invested in makes perfect sense. Nothing odd about it and no form of rip-off. A number of vendors, with whom I've had ongoing relationships, have rewarded my commitment with discounts, flexibility, making themselves available, working hard to find what I wanted, and all manner of things that have translated to hard dollars in my pocket. David Klass Jewelry has melted down more prototypes and castings that I can even remember or care to admit, Amy Phillips from DKJ reached out immediately when my dog died, Jonathan Weingarten responds to my emails at ungodly hours, Debi Wexler sent my whole family (human and canine!) matching pyjamas when I was sick (no, you're never, EVER, seeing that photo!) and Victor Canera has been helpful and kind in ways only he and I will ever know. As for Darren Racket from GOG - if he and his wife ever had another baby, I FULLY expect to be godmother! :)

    Why would I not respond to these people, who I know to be quality human beings, with loyalty and promotion of what I KNOW to be a top shelf version of a product by which I'm fascinated? That's not nonsensical or me being taken advantage of. That's just good sense.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
    kayla17, susimoo, Alexiszoe and 9 others like this.

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