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What do you all think of this stone.

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
No you are exactly right. And whether one is better than the other depends on the design of the ring in question.

Do you know anything about metal work? Let's use the example of swords.

"Forging and casting are two very different manufacturing methods. When something is cast the material is heated above its melting temperature and poured into a mold where it solidifies. When something is forged it is physically forced into shape while remaining in a solid state – although it is frequently heated."

Casting a setting means that liquid metal is poured into a mold. Then it's allowed to cool, is removed from the mold, and then goes through a polishing process. This means it might be subject to porosity caused by air bubbles that are not beaten or worked out of it, like you get with handforging. It's faster, easier and therefore costs more.

Handforged means that the jeweler takes hard metal, and works it by heating it bending it, folding it, beating it. Similar to blacksmith forging a sword. This means less porosity, finer grain structure, higher tensile strength, better fatigue life/strength.

Now the two swords may look identical at first glance. And if you are talking about an ornamental piece or a piece that will get no real wear and tear (no battle), you might as well go with the cast sword, right?

But which one do you want in a real battle? Well, the forged sword of course.

Now you are thinking, but this is jewelry not life and death. And you are right. But the same principles apply.

You are not talking about a cocktail ring or a right hand ring that you may wear a couple days a month. Or a brooch that sits on your chest, or a necklace that hangs from a chain. You are talking about an engagement ring that will be worn 24/7 (by most people) on their hands. Hands are very active.

Still, for things like 2.2mm solitaires or thick metal designs the difference in tensile strength and better fatigue don't matter as much. There is enough metal there that the piece with be strong. And for pieces with designs that require exact optical/physical symmetry with metal casting is superior.

But with pave halos of the style you are looking for that's not the case. You are usually talking about 2mm of metal or less. And then in order to set the stones, you riddle it with holes like swiss cheese.

Micro pave is fragile. There are two main styles. Bright cut, where the stones sit in a channel and have some protection. And V-cut (lots of different names for this depending on who you are talking to). The soliste is v-cut. You take a straight piece of metal and then you cut v-shaped cups out of it in which to set the stone in.

So right there as an engineer you can see how cutting out a row of cups from a piece of metal creates weakness. So the metal is weakened. Now, white gold is harder than platinum but platinum is stronger. That strength is needed due to the 'cups' that are weakening the metal. But that's really not enough, the fabrication method matters too.

Next is the actual setting of the stones. You are talking TINY stones . The maximum size of the stones in a double halo (and yours will be smaller than this, likely about 1mm each) is 1.3mm for a one point stone. Look at the below:
PaveCloseup1.jpg

Now those stones are 1.3mm or smaller. How big do you think those prongs are holding the stone?

TINY. TEENY TINY. And they do NOT size well. Taking a setting up or down in size is a NICE way to weaken that further.

So you have a bunch of tiny stones, held by microscopic prongs onto a piece of metal riddled with dips that weaken it.

Can you see why that might be fragile? Especially when worn on the hands? Have you ever noticed how often you use your hands and bang them against things like :the bed frame, the kitchen counter, anything you pick up period... It's not ONE single hit that kills the pave. It's HUNDREDS of small ones, every day you wear it. Yes, a finger can exert a lot of pressure and more than enough to knock one of those stones free. Or even crack a diamond itself (I've done this myself, I used to sleep with my pave ring, then in my sleep I hit my ring JUST at the RIGHT angle and cracked a diamond completely).

So you take that. And you make it into a ring that goes around your finger. That's nice low to your finger and protected. And you make sure to keep the width to 2mm for strength. That's fine.

But then you make it into to halo and put it around a stone that is sitting above the finger and you can't keep that to 2mm on the halo, because you want a delicate look. So that gets less safe because of where you wear it and because of the metal being thinner.So tensile strength and metal fatigue REALLY start to matter.

So pave really is a luxury item. Not a workhorse. And yet, everyone these days wants it on their workhorse engagement rings. So... all you can do is use the strongest method you can afford for fabrication and baby it when you wear it.

Okay?

So no. It's not a FAD. Pave is the FAD. It's very hot right now. So, as a result of pave being popular, and people NEEDING rings that are manufactured to last, handforging has become popular.

Now if you told me you wanted a thick metal bracelet, or a pendant. Or even a RHR. I wouldn't be making this recommendation. But you aren't buying any of those things. You are buying a LARGE rock that is going to sit on a finger every day in a setting riddled with holes studded with tiny stones held in place by teeny tiny prongs. So yes, I am recommending handforged.

And yes, it costs more. Just like the forged sword would. Because much more labor and SKILL goes into it's construction. But in this case engagement ring is the equivalent of the sword you take into battle. Not the one that hangs on the wall. And the DESIGN and the engineering of pave requires that extra strength. If you can afford it.
 

Gustovier

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
33
Ok, that makes perfect sense! I have no problem paying more money if seeing that I will get better durability out it as this ring like you said will be worn for years to come (until we upgrade, if ever). So hand forged it is! Especially she wants a thinner band which I'm thinking will clock in around 1.9 to 2m for a single row pave on the shank.


Also about the halo it's really a double edge style halo (each halo is perpendicular to each other) that I think will look nice and add some sparkle. I just wanted to make you all don't think i'm interested in a halo that consist of 2 rows of face up diamonds.

One thing I'm still conflicted on is cathedral style shanks... Although I said earlier that's not the way I want to go, I'm completely winging it on this as I think my girlfriend will think it looks too old fashioned possibly and take away from the daintiness of a 1.9-2m shank ring. Any comments from you all? I have feeling this one really just boils down personal preference.
 

Gustovier

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
33
One other thing Gypsy, my initial thoughts came from this post you made in in 2012, where you mentioned that CAST would be pretty good for the shank thickness I'm looking at (1.9-2mm) *you mentioned 2mm. Since then do you still recommend going hand forged over cast for even a 2mm pave shank? Thanks again so much for your help!

This was in topic: https://www.pricescope.com/forum/topic172157.html

Gypsy|1329879042|3131381 said:
Well, that depends on who you ask and the design in question. The reason I asked is for the pricing and the clarification in their terminology. But also because FOR YOUR DESIGN hand forging would be the 'best' method of fabrication.

Hand forging from wire is stronger in thinner more delicate bands, so for thin bands with pave it is a better choice, generally. Casting tech has gotten really good and aside from some bubbles and manufacturing problems that should be screened for piece by piece and covered by warranty in any event (and a good appraiser can spot issues), casting is great and may even be superior to hand forging for many designs but for thin pave, hand forging is still going to be stronger. Die Cast is another method of metal fabrication. Also very strong but is usually not (though not always) one that adapts to custom work well.

It's just a matter of the right tool for the job, but also to make sure you are getting what you think you are getting, and not something different.

ETA: How thin are those bands? I have a 2 mm wide cast platinum shank and for anything 2 mm and up cast is going to be fine as long as it's done right.IMO. But for thinner than 2mm, I personally would prefer hand forged from wire, depending on my budget. That said, I also wouldn't get a setting thinner than 2mm anyway as I feel that's too thin for everyday wear, so for me personally a cast shank in any event would be fine.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Yes. For pave anywhere near 2mm on an engagement ring I still recommend handforged if it's in budget.

Regarding cathedral versus not. Personal choice. I prefer cathedral. But I know people who HATE it. So you have to see if you can figure out which one your lady is.
 

tweeter8177

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
570
Gypsy - I just wanted to say that your post explaining the benefits of hand forged for pave is very helpful!!

OP - You have received great advice in this thread! I look forward to seeing the final ring!
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
tweeter8177|1453820279|3981689 said:
Gypsy - I just wanted to say that your post explaining the benefits of hand forged for pave is very helpful!!

OP - You have received great advice in this thread! I look forward to seeing the final ring!

Thank you Tweeter! :wavey:
 

Gustovier

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
33
Ok thanks again team!

So for now I'm playing the waiting game on this stone for zoara. I really hope it turns out well, I'm still thinking the price was too low of the specifications it holds and therefore something must be wrong. What you guys think?

I'm also working with Lauren B and Mark at a brilliantly engaged for possible other diamond options in case this zoara diamond falls through.

As for the setting I'm talking with Lauren B (they do hand forged according to post on here but I'm going to confirm again) and then Steve Kirsch. I'm using this wait time to decide on if I want the edge row of pave halo to add sparkle to side profile of ring or like maybe having a single pave halo but have the diamonds angled. Again the goal is to add sparkle to profile of the ring.

Also still deciding if I want to do double pave on the shank vs single.

Let me know if any of these options would cause big problems
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Ask Steven to make suggestions for options on adding sparkle to the profile view. That's his job.
 

Gustovier

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
33
All,

So while I'm waiting for the diamond, I'm wondering if I should get an ASET scope. I live in Chicago and I think it might be tough for me to find a Jewler or some other person to do an ASET for me. I am starting to wonder if this diamond might not be cut that well given its specifications to price. Do you all think I'm worrying to much here or that the price is in line?
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
I think that you are.probably a bit of a control.freak and are feeling anxious.

Get the ASET if it makes you feel better. It's only 50 bucks.
 

Gustovier

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
33
Lol. I'm am nervous and competly out of my comfort zone and it is a lot of money. Cash at that. But it's probably the nerves talking.
 

gm89uk

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,449
In my opinion (and experience) if you're anything like me, this question of cut quality will hang over your head until you finally just see the reflector image and then you can sleep at night. ~$65 for the price you are paying is peanuts, and especially if it will offer you closure on your purchase!
 

Gustovier

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
33
All,

Just an update, I hope to have the first option diamond here early next week. So I've just been working on deciding the setting design. I do have an alternative option diamond and I wanted to get thoughts. The price difference is negligible so its really going to boil down whats the better diamond. I know with my first option all we have is a face on magnified picture and GIA cert so its hard to actually compare. But what are your thoughts on this other option?

be_photo_1.jpg

be_photo_2.jpg

be_idealscope.jpg

be_aset.jpg

be_gia.jpg
 

Gustovier

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
33
In addition to getting your all thoughts in my option B above...

I showed option b seller the image and cert of the stone I posted about in my original post that I have coming in. They mentioned by looking at the picture it looks as if east and west facets show more light leakage then theirs and that there's a fish eye effect coming through. Do you all see that in original diamond I posted some time back?
 

Crazie4Cuts

Shiny_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
434
While not a prosumer expert, I believe it's best to get the ASET on the 1st stone that will soon be in your hands. With that ASET you can compare to the 2nd stone image and decide. I would also encourage you to reread again the information on PS regarding the value of having both the IS an ASET images when making this significant purchase. https://www.pricescope.com/journal/what-aset-reveals-ideal-scope-does-not.. Also since this stone is a cushion cut you may want to find information for other shapes since the link I provided is for mrb. Here another's link but for assher cut https://www.pricescope.com/journal/aset-%E2%80%93-diamond-evaluation-tool.. It would be difficult in my opinion to make comparison between the stones without the images.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
I like the new stone!

What are the dimensions of the two, side by side?

Can you get this one and compare them IN PERSON and return the one that you don't like?

That's the ideal way to pick.
 

Gustovier

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
33
Gypsy|1454216531|3984474 said:
I like the new stone!

What are the dimensions of the two, side by side?

Can you get this one and compare them IN PERSON and return the one that you don't like?

That's the ideal way to pick.
Here are the 2 Gia reports side by side. I don't think I will notice any size difference.

Option 1 the original
zoara_gia.jpg

Option 2
be_gia.jpg


Also does anybody else see a possible fish eye in the original option 1? Below is the pic.

6342319_cushion_excellent_cut_g_vs1.jpg
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
You are absolutely right.

You said the price difference was negligible?

Did you buy an ASET?

Where are you btw? What metro area?
 

Gustovier

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
33
Gypsy|1454221065|3984493 said:
You are absolutely right.

You said the price difference was negligible?

Did you buy an ASET?

Where are you btw? What metro area?
Yes, the price is negligible with the second option B stone coming in a little more.

I can't get an aset for the first option they don't have the capability to create ASET images.

I live in Chicago. There's no one here that can actually take ASET images for me that I can find. The best I can do beside looking at stone myself is to take to an appraiser I found and he doesn't do ASET either, but he's an independent not associated with any store person and been doing this alone time. . I've called numerous places and doing ASET is something that just isn't common. Dimend Scassi is literally the only place that I know in all of Chicagoland that does ASET but only for their stones.

In order to truly compare I'm thinking my only option is to buy this second stone and just return the one I and this appraiser like the least. Which isn't ideal.

Btw does anybody notice fisheye in my first option??.
 

Gustovier

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
33
Update:

I'm gonna see if I can get the other stone to me as well. I think it's going to require me to buy it.

I'm assuming nobody sees a fisheye type effect in the first stone option?
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,725
I would still want to compare them. I think they both have potential.

Did you get a quote from Victor Canera? Because the SK quote was too high.
 

Gustovier

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
33
diamondseeker2006|1454289019|3984896 said:
I would still want to compare them. I think they both have potential.

Did you get a quote from Victor Canera? Because the SK quote was too high.
No I didn't. But I think I'm gonna go with SK his personality is great and I like the level of service I'm getting.

Yeah I'm gonna see if I can get the other stone. I'm gonna use my own eyes and then possibly take them both to an appraiser to see which one is better ($100 fee) since I can't get an aset for the option 1.

Nobody has commented on a possible fisheye effect being seen for the first option. So It might be other other seller trying to convince me their stone is better. I guess we'll see
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
40,198
SK is awesome. I love working with him.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Messages
55,725
Gustovier|1454294468|3984928 said:
diamondseeker2006|1454289019|3984896 said:
I would still want to compare them. I think they both have potential.

Did you get a quote from Victor Canera? Because the SK quote was too high.
No I didn't. But I think I'm gonna go with SK his personality is great and I like the level of service I'm getting.

Yeah I'm gonna see if I can get the other stone. I'm gonna use my own eyes and then possibly take them both to an appraiser to see which one is better ($100 fee) since I can't get an aset for the option 1.

Nobody has commented on a possible fisheye effect being seen for the first option. So It might be other other seller trying to convince me their stone is better. I guess we'll see
Yikes. Victor is outstanding and I would not consider under ANY circumstances going with SK without a quote from Victor. I think $6400 sounds high and you won't know without getting another quote. If Victor is too busy, he might not even take the job as he gives first preference to those who buy stones from him. But Frankie had halos made by both and preferred Victor's work and so does another PS friend who I think would prefer to remain anonymous. When there is a discrepancy in price, I would go with the one who is lowest, but if they are equal or close, I'd always choose Victor. If they are both too high, then BE and Maytal Hannah would be my next choices.
 

Gustovier

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
33
diamondseeker2006|1454339493|3985114 said:
Gustovier|1454294468|3984928 said:
diamondseeker2006|1454289019|3984896 said:
I would still want to compare them. I think they both have potential.

Did you get a quote from Victor Canera? Because the SK quote was too high.
No I didn't. But I think I'm gonna go with SK his personality is great and I like the level of service I'm getting.

Yeah I'm gonna see if I can get the other stone. I'm gonna use my own eyes and then possibly take them both to an appraiser to see which one is better ($100 fee) since I can't get an aset for the option 1.

Nobody has commented on a possible fisheye effect being seen for the first option. So It might be other other seller trying to convince me their stone is better. I guess we'll see
Yikes. Victor is outstanding and I would not consider under ANY circumstances going with SK without a quote from Victor. I think $6400 sounds high and you won't know without getting another quote. If Victor is too busy, he might not even take the job as he gives first preference to those who buy stones from him. But Frankie had halos made by both and preferred Victor's work and so does another PS friend who I think would prefer to remain anonymous. When there is a discrepancy in price, I would go with the one who is lowest, but if they are equal or close, I'd always choose Victor. If they are both too high, then BE and Maytal Hannah would be my next choices.
So I'm going to do single row pave halo with three row pave band (about 1.9-2mm). SK quoted me the $6400 number and Victor came in at $5200 which seems more in line. I really like working with Steven but that is a big difference. I'm going to reach out and see what can be done ....
 

tweeter8177

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
570
That is a big difference in price. While I have only worked with Steven, I would be very happy to work with Victor! He has many happy PS customers. Have you seen the thread on his work? I know this is hard decision, but I think you will be happy with the end product with either of them!
 

Crazie4Cuts

Shiny_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
434
Wanted to check in with OP and find out if you received both stones. Were you able to compare and make a choice? Did you see your diamond appraiser for assistance?
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,725
Gustovier|1454373576|3985369 said:
diamondseeker2006|1454339493|3985114 said:
Gustovier|1454294468|3984928 said:
diamondseeker2006|1454289019|3984896 said:
I would still want to compare them. I think they both have potential.

Did you get a quote from Victor Canera? Because the SK quote was too high.
No I didn't. But I think I'm gonna go with SK his personality is great and I like the level of service I'm getting.

Yeah I'm gonna see if I can get the other stone. I'm gonna use my own eyes and then possibly take them both to an appraiser to see which one is better ($100 fee) since I can't get an aset for the option 1.

Nobody has commented on a possible fisheye effect being seen for the first option. So It might be other other seller trying to convince me their stone is better. I guess we'll see
Yikes. Victor is outstanding and I would not consider under ANY circumstances going with SK without a quote from Victor. I think $6400 sounds high and you won't know without getting another quote. If Victor is too busy, he might not even take the job as he gives first preference to those who buy stones from him. But Frankie had halos made by both and preferred Victor's work and so does another PS friend who I think would prefer to remain anonymous. When there is a discrepancy in price, I would go with the one who is lowest, but if they are equal or close, I'd always choose Victor. If they are both too high, then BE and Maytal Hannah would be my next choices.
So I'm going to do single row pave halo with three row pave band (about 1.9-2mm). SK quoted me the $6400 number and Victor came in at $5200 which seems more in line. I really like working with Steven but that is a big difference. I'm going to reach out and see what can be done ....
That's much more like it. Victor is a very fine person as well as being a great master ring maker. If the quotes were the same, I would choose him hands down. But this is kind of an easy decision.

Incidentally, I probably said this before, but pave on the sides of the shank really means no wedding band. So do you think she wants to wear no wedding band? I wouldn't even consider pave on the sides of the shank, personally. I prefer for the shank to be more sturdy and also to be able to wear bands next to the ring that will not rub against those diamonds.
 

Gustovier

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
33
Update. I went with Steven I was able to work with him about price. I really like his personality and work style during the pre sales phase and just felt more comfortable with him.

I also had both diamonds side by side. Took it to a good known appraiser that had one of those table top aset scopes. Plus other items. The first option from zoara was slightly larger, but the difference would not be noticeable in the halo. So the main things were light performance and the clarity difference. As the stone from zoara was a VS1. The stone from brilliantly engaged was a very eye clean si1 so the only real benefit is me mentally knowing the zoara stone was a VS1, which was a very cool aspect and something I never considered as I wasn't willing to pay the premium for something you don't see. But yet once I knew it was hard to let this aspect go. The other major factor was light performance. Side by side I could visually notice the brilliantly engaged stone performed better but not hugely so. This was backed up by the aset images I saw at the appraiser. The price difference was $200 more for brillantly engaged as well. So not much difference there.

So in the end me and appraiser felt that the brillantly engaged stone was the way to go. The light performance ultimately ranked in higher than the vs1 of the zoara stone. Although this was a very hard call to make.
 
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