What constitutes an inspired by piece vs. stealing designs?

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: What constitutes an inspired by piece vs. stealing desig

Caysie actually made a copy of a very generous PSer's band set. Hers was the original from Van Craeynest. The company was (temporarily?) out of service. Caysie did not object at all when I contacted her...
So indeed: every jeweller seem to copy to some extent.

Are you talking about your flamingo set? https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/a-flamboyance-of-flamingos.210374/

The one that apacherose gave the go ahead of the copy of VanCraeynest ?

That's correct! My set was created in honor of apacheroses beautiful set. Though I feel that no jeweller can truly capture the true Van Craeynest look and feel. I hope they will go back in business again.

I do think they are making some select VanC designs now, but I think the original workers are no longer there and others have been trained. So I'd love to see some of the work of the current bench. You are right that die struck with hand carving will look different from a cast version which couldn't have been an exact copy without having the VC dies anyway. The nice thing was that your ring did have changes...I have never seen an original VC ring with that bezel and gallery, so it was a substantial change from apacherose's ring. But it was very nice of you to ask her if she minded! I think most agree that inspired-by rings are fine when they have some changes.

 

[NonieMarie]

Re: What constitutes an inspired by piece vs. stealing desig

Oh and interestingly enough someone just alerted me on FB that an eternity I had custom made is now a CVB exclusive design. Though I had it made years ago by another PS vendor and it is absolutely an exact copy from what I can see on the website. It happens, all vendors do it.

I noticed that, too. I remember when you had it made. Isn't it named after you? There are other designs, on the site, that aren't "original". "Someone" left nasty reviews on DK's fb. I guess it is ok for them and not for others who can not afford the high prices. I was going to respond but decided instead to add to my 5 star reviews.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: What constitutes an inspired by piece vs. stealing desig

Nonie, you must have missed my posts that explained that the inspiration ring for the eternity was not SB's ring, it was an antique ring posted by asscher girl in 2010, at least three years before SB had her ring made. Neither SB's or Caysie's is original because they are based on an art deco design from the early 1900's. Gypsy also pointed out that a PSer named Neatfreak bought the band asscher girl now has in late 2008. So that vintage ring has been around since 2008 in the PS world, and it's been around maybe 80 or 90 years as a design. Here's the link to the antique ring Neatfreak bought in late 2008:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/has-anyone-ever-successfully-had-a-bezeled-eternity-band-sized.100830/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/has-anyone-ever-successfully-had-a-bezeled-eternity-band-sized.100830/[/URL]

I have been recommending DK frequently for people with limited budgets for several years. He makes a huge number of rings and has many good designs. I think he is smart enough that he could easily adapt designs so that they are changed from an original current design. I am going to give him credit for having the expertise to do that. He can educate his clients that with a few tweaks, the person can have a design custom for them, and it will avoid making an exact copy of another designer's current work. Is that too much to ask? I really don't think so.

Hi DS - I think it's SB621's octagon eternity.

Oh, surely that is not what she meant. Hers is definitely not an original design because it is an old design. I forgot that she had one (it's gorgeous!), but asscher girl got a vintage one in 2010 that originated from Dover jewelers back in 2008. I remember this band because it is in most of asscher girl's profile pictures with her gorgeous EC ring! SB had hers made in 2013, apparently.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-new-art-deco-diamond-eternity-that-i-couldnt-pass-up-again.133572/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-new-art-deco-diamond-eternity-that-i-couldnt-pass-up-again.133572/[/URL]

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/the-journey-is-over-4-31ctw-art-deco-eternity-by-jbeg.191661/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/the-journey-is-over-4-31ctw-art-deco-eternity-by-jbeg.191661/[/URL]

Oh wow, you are sooo lucky to have had all that time in Europe!!! Bling can wait, but those experiences can never be replaced!

Antique/vintage rings are fair game for all vendors to reproduce. The antique ring similar to the one CVB made has been posted publicly on PS since January 2010 which was a few years before yours was made. So it's really not fair to accuse her of copying your ring because what she did was reproduce an antique design ring which has been around probably since the deco period. I think hers looks more like the antique one, really.

(top: antique ring/asscher girl 2010, middle: CVB ring, bottom: SB's ring, 2013)

 

[NonieMarie]

Re: What constitutes an inspired by piece vs. stealing desig

Just wondering, how much of a change is enough? If you slightly change the CvB ring that started this thread by substituting the scallop pave for a circle of pave, would that be enough? Wouldn't every designer have their own idea of how much needed to be changed?
I agree, although I thought Gypsy was rather harsh, the thing to do is always steer people to make a design their own or go with a stock setting. If it is something that is pretty much in the public domain, recommend a trusted vendor.
I just had a ring made for my OEC. I started with Haven's, added James Meyer, a beautiful Amethyst with scrolls on DK's site and a CvB to show short claw prongs in a bezel. I needed all the photos so I could relay what I wanted and DK created a setting that is pretty much original. Maybe it didn't cost thousands of dollars, wasn't hand forged and needs a loupe to see every intricate part of the design but I love it.
On the other hand, a few years ago, I contacted Leon Mege about making his Rosebud earrings for 7mm cushions. He happened to answer the phone, he was rude and quoted a ridiculous amount. I turned to DK and yes I sent him the photo of Mege's earrings. The earrings are stunning, the workmanship is not knockoff quality. I love them and feel no guilt having them made by someone that was kind, responsive and professional.

 

[Resonance.Of.Life]

Re: What constitutes an inspired by piece vs. stealing desig

Caysie actually made a copy of a very generous PSer's band set. Hers was the original from Van Craeynest. The company was (temporarily?) out of service. Caysie did not object at all when I contacted her...
So indeed: every jeweller seem to copy to some extent.

Are you talking about your flamingo set? https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/a-flamboyance-of-flamingos.210374/

The one that apacherose gave the go ahead of the copy of VanCraeynest ?

That's correct! My set was created in honor of apacheroses beautiful set. Though I feel that no jeweller can truly capture the true Van Craeynest look and feel. I hope they will go back in business again.

I do think they are making some select VanC designs now, but I think the original workers are no longer there and others have been trained. So I'd love to see some of the work of the current bench. You are right that die struck with hand carving will look different from a cast version which couldn't have been an exact copy without having the VC dies anyway. The nice thing was that your ring did have changes...I have never seen an original VC ring with that bezel and gallery, so it was a substantial change from apacherose's ring. But it was very nice of you to ask her if she minded! I think most agree that inspired-by rings are fine when they have some changes.

The company who bought VanC is in Redlands, California and are definitely currently operating, in fact Madelise and I even had a tour of their backroom where the items are still being die struck and hand chased, pierced, ect by people who are trained in the craft. They have drawers and drawers of the molds, many beautiful designs that just aren't as popular. It looked no different than when VanC was family owned and operated (but then again I did not loupe the pieces). Regardless of the bench who makes it, VanC (the company that owns that brand) still owns the rights to the intellectual property.

Regardless of the methodology used to create the ring, it still an attempt to emulate a VanC ring (Acinom even indicated this was her quote request and that CVB had no qualms in duplicating said ring). Changing the bezel and gallery does not constitute a substantial change when VanC themselves even posted yesterday on their instagram account that they change head styles for rings as requested, just because they haven't done a bezel head doesn't mean their signature look (the artwork on the band in that style) isn't being infringed on. Their signature look, which is easily recognizable specifically to their brand, is what they call in intellectual property law, trade dress. And in fact, unless CVB asked VanC to use their trade dress and obtained permission, it would be considered an infringement on their intellectual property.

Similarly someone would recognize a ring done to emulate Tacori, and even though these vendors make changes you can clearly identify parts that are "inspired" by Tacori. From what I hear, Tacori is also notorious for going after people who are infringing on their trade dress. Again, I am not saying what the client's request is wrong, I am saying it is up to the vendor to be upheld to their professional standards. Many vendors are guilty of such copying, but when it happens to them, and now they cry that it's unfair is a bit hypocritical.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: What constitutes an inspired by piece vs. stealing desig

ROL, David Klass would have been shut down loooooong before now if the requirements are as stringent as you suggest! It wouldn't take me long to identify MANY exact and near copies of branded rings that he has copied. I am pretty open to copies with changes, personally, and have recommended David many times. I just think it would be a courtesy and ethical decision to make some changes to current original designs.

I am also well aware of the status of Van Crayenest as I have talked to the current owner multiple times and still consider having them make me a ring. Acinom stated that VanC was not in production at the time she wanted the rings made, or surely she would have had Van Craeynest make them. At that time she apparently did not have a date that production would resume (if ever) or she would have waited. There are designs that VanC cannot make now because the artisans who could make them no longer work there (I think it is the pierced designs). There's about a zero percent chance that one would look at Acinom's rings and apacherose's and think they are the same, because the VanC is hand carved and chased and no cast ring is going to look the same. I do have hand carving on my last ring, but that is a newer bench to CVB.

This thread is about vendors making exact copies of another vendor's currently produced and available original designs. We can have 100 different opinions on here about how much change is enough change to be acceptable and debate about it all day. I avoid this by using actual antique rings as my own inspiration pieces so I don't have to think about that. And if I want a Van Craeynest ring, I go to them, and if I want an original design or antique inspired design I go to CVB, if I want an Emilya pave halo, I go to Victor, etc. I think the outcome is usually best when the original maker makes the ring, assuming the original is an outstanding quality piece.

 

[Resonance.Of.Life]

Re: What constitutes an inspired by piece vs. stealing desig

I am merely going by the statutes indicated by the trade dress infringement laws. It is up to the vendor who owns the rights to the IP to go after the copy cat. Now, if they choose not to that is their wish but I can tell you I know specifically Tacori HAS and will go after vendors copying their style using trade dress laws. This is an important part in being an artist, protecting your intellectual property rights (or I suppose, any inventor too) as this is their livelihood. The question of changes and acceptability was brought up in this thread, trying to address them with the laws that back them up.

Again, Acinom herself stated she went to CVB with a desire to emulate Apache Rose's set, NOT ME. And that she herself stated, that CVB had no qualms in doing so. If this is erroneous then I am sorry, but this is straight from a comment on this thread from the owner of the set. If a DK person wanted to chime in and say something similar, then I'd be using that as an example as well. I have not worked with any of these vendors myself so I have no horse in said race.

I visited the southern California VanC location June of 2014, with Madelise and actually met up with another PSer after. They were making rings at the time, however I was told the wait time for a ring to be commissioned would be 6-8 months due to the time consuming process. A piece was being hand-pierced that we got to see, so unless something has changed they still are. I highly recommend going there and asking for a tour!

Again, SIGNIFICANTLY SIMILAR. There is no percentage of change as it is a piece of art and that cannot be mathematically calculated but when it emulates or is significantly similar there is an IP infringement. Many designs I have seen have been copied straight from antiques and are being called original designs by various vendors.

Methodology and varying level of skills in order to execute a trade dress does not come into play for infringement, so... if a vendor oh I don't know, say in Europe made a copy of a Mark Morrell it's ok because we as PSers would not confuse one for the other even though we can clearly see it is emulating his trade dress (signature style, say the Torchiere)? But because it is cad/cast vs being handforged and that no one could possibly confuse one for the other it is ok? When is it ok? I am trying to have an open dialogue here.

I agree with you going to the original vendor IS the best way to have a ring made and executed, they know the piece and the nuances to the design that a person new to the design may not realize and encounter issues in the manufacture of said ring. I am trying to have an open dialogue here on the forum as these issues are being brought up to the attention of the forum. I only came onto the thread after it came up on a private group and sad that some of psers are afraid to post due to having a dissenting opinion. But isn't that how we learn, having a discussion with dissenting opinions and trying to see each other's viewpoint?

Heck, as you know, I am against direct copying-- the main reason why I am not posting my new ring anywhere online so we're on the same page here. Sad state of affairs, is it not?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15.6 INFRINGEMENT—ELEMENTS AND BURDEN OF PROOF—TRADE DRESS (15 U.S.C. § 1125(a)(1))

On the plaintiff’s claim for trade dress infringement, the plaintiff has the burden of proving by a preponderance of the evidence each of the following elements:

1. [describe the plaintiff’s trade dress] is distinctive;

2. the plaintiff owns [describe the plaintiff’s trade dress] as trade dress;

3. the [describe the plaintiff’s trade dress] is nonfunctional; and

4. the defendant used [describe trade dress used by the defendant] [trade dress similar to [describe the plaintiff’s trade dress]] without the consent of the plaintiff in a manner that is likely to cause confusion among ordinary consumers as to the source, sponsorship, affiliation, or approval of the [plaintiff’s] [defendant’s] goods.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: What constitutes an inspired by piece vs. stealing desig

Yep, I think we agree on no exact copies! And yes, the big guys like Tacori and Tiffany do go after the prolific copy cats. It's the little guys with smaller businesses who cannot go after them because they don't have a legal staff and $$$$ like the big brands do. ROL, you have said yourself that you don't mind investing in a spectacular setting and I 100% "get" that, especially for a great diamond! I just wanted to say, though, that those highest end, expensive settings are the least likely to be copied exactly (or even close), because most people won't consider putting over $10k in a setting. That usually means custom cut stones, and there just are no substitutes for that! So I hope you might reconsider showing your ring, because it sounds like your setting would be the least likely to be copied because few people here will pay over $5k, much less $12k! But if you don't post it, I just hope I get to see you at a GTG one more time so I can see your stone's new home!

Stan, the person who was like the head VC person who created the incredible pierced and jeweled egg was probably the one doing piercing at VanC (as well as training others). His contract was up sometime after your visit probably and he left. One of the Emerson sons was among those trained to do some of the VanC bench work. I'd have to look back at my emails, but I think the pierced rings is the thing they can no longer make (unless someone has been trained in that since then). Chasing and carving, yes, the last I heard. I checked in last summer and had them send me some bands to try on. I still hope to get one of their rings one of these days! I just don't have a diamond for it yet. I would definitely love to go to the store at Redlands, though!

 

[distracts]

Re: What constitutes an inspired by piece vs. stealing desig

Acinom stated that VanC was not in production at the time she wanted the rings made, or surely she would have had Van Craeynest make them. At that time she apparently did not have a date that production would resume (if ever) or she would have waited.

Just because the company who owns the intellectual property is not using it/producing it at that time does not make it LESS copyright infringement though. Likewise plenty of vintage Tiffany rings etc are probably still in copyright even though they aren't being made anymore. Just because something is not produced currently doesn't make it fair game for a copy, if you think copyrighted pieces shouldn't be copied. If you think it is, then your argument is "if you can't get it from the original vendor, it's fair game for a copy," but if that is the case, why does whether or not it is in production matter but whether or not the customer can pay for it not matter? If it is out of reach, it is out of reach - and then a copy is fair game?

 

[Resonance.Of.Life]

Re: What constitutes an inspired by piece vs. stealing desig

DS: I think we're on the same page-- but I will say I do hate communicating via text like this where tone is lost due to the lack of intonation. I feel for the little guys, I do-- but at some point they have to bite the bullet and invest in an attorney not only for the protection of IP but for other aspects like lawsuits, ect. My Uncle owns a small aerospace engineering consulting company (ie: him and 3 employees) but he also retains an attorney in case issues come up whether it be a case of an argument over billing, IP, ect. It does cost him quite a bit as owner and operator, but well worth the investment. Protecting his IP is very important for his livelihood much in the same way it is for a jewelry maker and their art.

I am one of the few people that will pour money into an expensive setting, and that is just my preference. Many people still try to copy even 6-8k settings on budgets half of that amount (why else would DK be so popular, not saying he can't make beautiful settings, but some of the ones he tries to copy seem "awkward" and not as refined as his more original work). Now, it won't have the aesthetic down pat (for obvious reasons) but it hasn't stopped people from copying. To go back to another example of this thread, I think someone mentioned that someone had copied Zahra's RDG ring with another vendor (dk maybe?). I imagine that ring had to cost well over the 12k as it had fancy pink diamonds in it and was handforged, and yet, someone still tried to copy it. Who knows, maybe I will change my stance on this topic and eventually post it. Although, it seems unscrupulous ebay vendors and jewelers on IG seem to mine PS for pictures to claim Psers' rings as works of their own .

Ah, that makes sense regarding VanC. I love their rings, but I do not know if I can justify 8k (in 2014) for a band with only a few burnished diamonds. I love the craftsmanship, but 8k is something I cannot swallow on a band with no significant diamond features.

I will try to go to the next GTG, but it seems that JCK next year is Mon-Friday? 2017 would be the last GTG I could attend for awhile as we're trying to aim for a 2018 summer baby

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: What constitutes an inspired by piece vs. stealing desig

DS: I think we're on the same page-- but I will say I do hate communicating via text like this where tone is lost due to the lack of intonation. I feel for the little guys, I do-- but at some point they have to bite the bullet and invest in an attorney not only for the protection of IP but for other aspects like lawsuits, ect. My Uncle owns a small aerospace engineering consulting company (ie: him and 3 employees) but he also retains an attorney in case issues come up whether it be a case of an argument over billing, IP, ect. It does cost him quite a bit as owner and operator, but well worth the investment. Protecting his IP is very important for his livelihood much in the same way it is for a jewelry maker and their art.

I am one of the few people that will pour money into an expensive setting, and that is just my preference. Many people still try to copy even 6-8k settings on budgets half of that amount (why else would DK be so popular, not saying he can't make beautiful settings, but some of the ones he tries to copy seem "awkward" and not as refined as his more original work). Now, it won't have the aesthetic down pat (for obvious reasons) but it hasn't stopped people from copying. To go back to another example of this thread, I think someone mentioned that someone had copied Zahra's RDG ring with another vendor (dk maybe?). I imagine that ring had to cost well over the 12k as it had fancy pink diamonds in it and was handforged, and yet, someone still tried to copy it. Who knows, maybe I will change my stance on this topic and eventually post it. Although, it seems unscrupulous ebay vendors and jewelers on IG seem to mine PS for pictures to claim Psers' rings as works of their own .

Ah, that makes sense regarding VanC. I love their rings, but I do not know if I can justify 8k (in 2014) for a band with only a few burnished diamonds. I love the craftsmanship, but 8k is something I cannot swallow on a band with no significant diamond features.

I will try to go to the next GTG, but it seems that JCK next year is Mon-Friday? 2017 would be the last GTG I could attend for awhile as we're trying to aim for a 2018 summer baby

Yes, I hate that tone is lost sometimes here, too!

I definitely agree with you on your uncle's situation and the need for business owners in general to have legal resources. I just think most people in the arts are not generating the income to actually challenge a patent violation. It's extremely costly and takes forever. But theoretically, we wouldn't be having this discussion if they could manage to contest design patent violations.

I do remember when that lady had a ring made inspired by Zahra's ring! You picked a good example of a very expensive ring (primarily because of the pink diamonds) that was made for much, much less. So I guess there are people who might try. The ebay vendors using PS pictures as the items they are selling is definitely awful as that is just deliberate deception! I know some people put their user name across all their pictures, but that is a pain, too, and what good is a jewelry pic if you can't see half of it?!

Yikes!!!! $8k for a VC band! I sent for a few bands last summer but didn't even get the current pricing due to not being ready to actually order (I had some prices from before). They've gone up quite a bit if that is just a 2mm band. I may need to revise my thinking on that unless they are now producing more and prices have moderated some!

Oh gosh, Monday thru Friday for JCK 2017. That's not good! I am not sure I'd be able to go, either. I need Thursday-Sunday. Yay for baby plans!

 

[Resonance.Of.Life]

Re: What constitutes an inspired by piece vs. stealing desig

Yes, I hate that tone is lost sometimes here, too!

I definitely agree with you on your uncle's situation and the need for business owners in general to have legal resources. I just think most people in the arts are not generating the income to actually challenge a patent violation. It's extremely costly and takes forever. But theoretically, we wouldn't be having this discussion if they could manage to contest design patent violations.

I do remember when that lady had a ring made inspired by Zahra's ring! You picked a good example of a very expensive ring (primarily because of the pink diamonds) that was made for much, much less. So I guess there are people who might try. The ebay vendors using PS pictures as the items they are selling is definitely awful as that is just deliberate deception! I know some people put their user name across all their pictures, but that is a pain, too, and what good is a jewelry pic if you can't see half of it?!

Yikes!!!! $8k for a VC band! I sent for a few bands last summer but didn't even get the current pricing due to not being ready to actually order (I had some prices from before). They've gone up quite a bit if that is just a 2mm band. I may need to revise my thinking on that unless they are now producing more and prices have moderated some!

Oh gosh, Monday thru Friday for JCK 2017. That's not good! I am not sure I'd be able to go, either. I need Thursday-Sunday. Yay for baby plans!

Eventually, it would have to be a requirement, otherwise how would one get to the point where Tacori, Verragio, ect are, right? I think any patent violation is costly, but I guess it would have to outweigh the loss of potential business for them to pursue it with limited resources.

Yes, ebay vendors and random jewelers on instagram have used many recognizable rings to PSers and claim it is work that they have done or are products that they are selling. I saw someone take one of my IG pics and posted as their own and unfortunately, that might be the route I have to take. I'd hate for someone to say, "Yes, I can recommend the jeweler who made this ring it is so and so." when it is a complete lie and have the person disappointed when it was a stolen photo.

Yes, for a band that once I saw in person I absolutely fell in love with. For me, VanC pieces look better in gold or rose gold... the platinum doesn't show as much as the detail as the gold does without further closer inspection. If that makes sense. This one is the 8k one:


If I recall correctly, the 2mm flower bands were around 3-4k range? But these are prices from when we went to visit 2 years ago.


Yeah, I have no idea who thought having the JCK show Mon-Friday was a good idea but it seems the other conventions that would normally be Wed-Monday are experiencing the same weird schedule too. Maybe they looked at the wrong calendar year when they booked the convention center.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: What constitutes an inspired by piece vs. stealing desig

This thread has been great. Thanks so much dolly for posting it. This is best least traumatic discussion of this issue that I remember. Thankfully.

 

[dollyanjuli]

Re: What constitutes an inspired by piece vs. stealing desig

Thanks Gypsy- I found this thread really insightful and loved hearing the different responses. And as a long time prosumer I thank you so much for participating and sharing your views!

I have a spin off question I want to get peoples opinions on. It pertains to when a specific designer uses sub-par diamonds; so you love the design but can't stomach I2 clarity stones.

For example:i follow many jewelry designers on Instagram. I am constantly getting "suggested" jewelers while browsing. I found two designers that I loveddddd the designs of and decided to go check out their main websites to see about purchasing. Each had very unique styles and were NOT inexpensive. However, one designer stated in each description that their diamonds "vary from SI-I" clarity and I could tell that it was more on the "I" side. The other actually said I3!! I3!!!!! So what's a girl (or guy) to do then? I have also found this same thing on etsy. With more "fun" pieces that are unique it seems that the stones can often times be terrible. In that case, is it ok to have someone make a copy with better quality stones?

 

[Sunstorm]

Re: What constitutes an inspired by piece vs. stealing desig

I just wanted to comment that this thread was really insightful, enjoyed it a lot.

To the last question, I am sure designers have access to varying quality stones. Talk to them about it.

Thanks for this great discussion on such a controversial yet very interesting subject.