Well, Now Brett Kavanaugh Can Face His Accuser

[OreoRosies86]

You made a comment to Callie that I was addressing. You said you were confused so I attempted to help you out. Won't bother next time.

 

[JPie]

You are very brave for writing this. I know it's hard, and I relate more than I'd like to your experience as an adult. It's horrible, difficult, and stays with you (unfortunately). Know that almost all of us on this board read your story with compassion, understanding, and admiration of your strength. You did what was best for you given the circumstances, and NO ONE has the right to judge. If they think they do, they are wrong. Period. I just wanted to respond so you know that I "see" you, your post, and your experience.

Thank you for stating this so eloquently.

To all the women who have shared their experiences today and before, thank you for trying to help others be more compassionate.

 

[Tekate]

I assumed that after you said I assumed she wasnt lying. I did state above why I thought Feinstein brought it as soon as she could. I never assume a polygraph is admissable, it isn't in some courts. Why does it appear she always intended to come out since she took a lie detector test? I don't follow that. I don't think he should drop out I think her issues she be investigated further.

I have never said she was lying so why would you assume that? Why didn't the Dems bring this forth earlier so it could be investigated during the process? It appears she always intended to come out since she took a polygraph months ago. Who does that if they are not going to go public? There are too many problems with the whole thing to expect him to just drop out, which I am pretty sure they were hoping he would do.

I have a hard time with you saying he should be put aside because women have been for time immemorial. You require a sacrifice on the altar of women and he should be it? Even if we don't know if he is guilty of anything? That sounds quite medieval.

 

[redwood66]

I assumed that after you said I assumed she wasnt lying. I did state above why I thought Feinstein brought it as soon as she could. I never assume a polygraph is admissable, it isn't in some courts. Why does it appear she always intended to come out since she took a lie detector test? I don't follow that. I don't think he should drop out I think her issues she be investigated further.

Well a polygraph is very expensive so just taking one for your own personal enjoyment seems quite odd. And why is it that her lawyer will not give any info on who took it and who paid for it? The same lawyer who said Paula Jones had a weak case.
https://www.nytimes.com/1998/03/15/...suit-against-president-faces-big-hurdles.html

Ford will need to bring more facts to do any kind of investigation that would garner any kind of answers this many decades later, such as a date and a place. Plus names of the others at the party.

 

[soxfan]

I haven't read the last 2 pages and I don't want to.....

I need to say this. Ford is ASKING for an FBI investigation because she doesn't want a repeat of Anita Hill. Jenn, for all your "legal knowledge," you MUST know that the Senate Judiciary proceedings are NOT a court of law, right? You love courts. And juries. And all the lingo that goes along with it.

She wants the FBI to investigate this so they can gather some facts to counteract the "he said she said" bullshit circus that would take place on the Senate floor. Because she's smart. Because she believes in checks and balances. Because it's the RIGHT thing to do.

Mark Judge doesn't want to "get involved." Oh boo f-ing hoo. If the FBI investigates and finds credible evidence, he will have to talk.

To say that she is engaging in political theatrics is just dumb. Like really really dumb. She is doing Exactly. The. Right. Thing.

 

[soxfan]

Well a polygraph is very expensive so just taking one for your own personal enjoyment seems quite odd. And why is it that her lawyer will not give any info on who took it and who paid for it? The same lawyer who said Paula Jones had a weak case.
https://www.nytimes.com/1998/03/15/...suit-against-president-faces-big-hurdles.html

Ford will need to bring more facts to do any kind of investigation that would garner any kind of answers this many decades later, such as a date and a place. Plus names of the others at the party.

And THAT IS WHY she is asking for an FBI investigation. How you do not get that?

 

[redwood66]

And THAT IS WHY she is asking for an FBI investigation. How you do not get that?

It is not the job of the FBI to investigate 36 year old alleged crimes. And as I said she will need to provide a whole lot more info for any investigation to take place. The FBI has already passed on this. How do you not get that? The FBI is not at the beck and call of this person to demand an investigation.

 

[soxfan]

It is not the job of the FBI to investigate 36 year old alleged crimes. And as I said she will need a whole lot more info for any investigation to take place. The FBI has already passed on this. How do you not get that? The FBI is not at the beck and call of this person to demand an investigation.

Bullshit. They can absolutely look into this.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...1125416c102_story.html?utm_term=.edccc403c080

 

[tkyasx78]

If you were going to tell a high-stakes lie because you wanted to take somebody out, for whatever reason, would you beg the FBI to look into it?
Would you be willing to testify under oath under penalty of perjury?

One woman is willing. The 2 men who have been accused are NOT.

 

[soxfan]

It is not the job of the FBI to investigate 36 year old alleged crimes. And as I said she will need to provide a whole lot more info for any investigation to take place. The FBI has already passed on this. How do you not get that? The FBI is not at the beck and call of this person to demand an investigation.

And here's another article that says that the FBI can investigate it. In their free time investigating all the crap Trump wants them too. You know, Hillary, emails, Obama's birth certificate, the Golden shower tape, you know- all those important things.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/su...te-allegation-against-brett-kavanaugh-n911036

 

[redwood66]

Bullshit. They can absolutely look into this.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...1125416c102_story.html?utm_term=.edccc403c080

For what exactly?

 

[redwood66]

If you were going to tell a high-stakes lie because you wanted to take somebody out, for whatever reason, would you beg the FBI to look into it?
Would you be willing to testify under oath under penalty of perjury?

One woman is willing. The 2 men who have been accused are NOT.

Kavanaugh has already agreed to come forward on Monday. She has not.

 

[soxfan]

Kavanaugh has already agreed to come forward on Monday.

Shocker. It's going to be a home run derby with rubber softballs. Ahhhh I can't wait to hear Lindsey Graham, Orrin Hatch, and Chuck Grassley. Sounds like a scene from the North and the South but with no North.

 

[redwood66]

Shocker. It's going to be a home run derby with rubber softballs. Ahhhh I can't wait to hear Lindsey Graham, Orrin Hatch, and Chuck Grassley. Sounds like a scene from the North and the South but with no North.

If she's not there then he shouldn't be either.

 

[Alexiszoe]

ONLY an investigation, by a neutral, independent party (i.e. FBI rather than some Senate committee led by different political parties) can cut through all the "he said / she said" arguments.

Right now the Senate Committee is composed of politicians who all have their own political agendas. Honestly even if both Kavanaugh and Ford turned up, I would not be able to trust the findings of the Senate Committee on this case, because obviously each party has vested interests.

When a judge is found to have vested interest in a case, they are recused so that parties are ensured a fair trial. So why not in this case too? Why is a political committee with vested interests in the case allowed to preside over it rather than using a neutral and independent party to run the investigation?

 

[tkyasx78]

And THAT IS WHY she is asking for an FBI investigation. How you do not get that?

Please keep in mind that even if video surfaced and they could watch it, and they didn't want to call it fake news or they couldn't say the video was edited, at that point , some people would go to step 2 after deny deny deny which would be - it happened a long time ago, he was a minor he was drunk and that shouldn't stop him 30 years later from being a judge. One attempted rape would not matter to some people. If people are willing to elect and at nearly every turn defend a person with trumps history, it is not a tough step to defend a man who would attack a woman while drunk.

Quite literally , Kavanaugh could punch the woman in the face in front of the senate, and hatch, grassley and graham would scream, and call 911 to get treatment for kavanaughs sore knuckles , all the while telling the woman she should be ashamed that her head was so hard.
Sadly I am not being overly dramatic. Nothing would surprise me at this point.

A few days ago and only knowing one person - kavanaugh - Mr hatch, having never met the woman told the press that the woman was mistaken. Hatch seems to feel he knows kavanaugh and clearly being omnipotent the woman is a liar and kavanugh is the real victim here.
They were never going to listen to facts or investigate. They had those 65 signatures lined up so when it went public they were going to slap that down and say lets move on fast before it becomes an issue.

 

[Calliecake]

Please keep in mind that even if video surfaced and they could watch it, and they didn't want to call it fake news or they couldn't say the video was edited, at that point , some people would go to step 2 after deny deny deny which would be - it happened a long time ago, he was a minor he was drunk and that shouldn't stop him 30 years later from being a judge. One attempted rape would not matter to some people. If people are willing to elect and at nearly every turn defend a person with trumps history, it is not a tough step to defend a man who would attack a woman while drunk.

Quite literally , Kavanaugh could punch the woman in the face in front of the senate, and hatch, grassley and graham would scream, and call 911 to get treatment for kavanaughs sore knuckles , all the while telling the woman she should be ashamed that her head was so hard.
Sadly I am not being overly dramatic. Nothing would surprise me at this point.

A few days ago and only knowing one person - kavanaugh - Mr hatch, having never met the woman told the press that the woman was mistaken. Hatch seems to feel he knows kavanaugh and clearly being omnipotent the woman is a liar and kavanugh is the real victim here.
They were never going to listen to facts or investigate. They had those 65 signatures lined up so when it went public they were going to slap that down and say lets move on fast before it becomes an issue.

Would Trump have to approve the FBI investigation?

 

[AGBF]

Would Trump have to approve the FBI investigation?

Some lawyers on television have been saying that Trump has to ask the FBI to do the investigation. I do not have a clue if those lawyers are correct. In the arcane world of the federal government the federal lawyers may not even know if that is the only way to involve the FBI unless they do a lot of research. There may be some obscure circumstance in which a sub-committee of a Senate can ask the FBI to investigate if the sun is shining and the Secretary of State is in Wyoming. (I have been learning a lot about the ways in which both the executive and legislative branches can get around all kinds of rules just by being glued to my television this past year.)

AGBF

 

[Calliecake]

Thank you @AGBF. If they need Trumps approval does anyone really think this investigation will take place?

 

[monarch64]

Thoughts after reading this entire thread:

I think that certain things are easier for people to cope with when they adhere to the "safety" of following the letter of the law. Much like there is comfort found by following a set of religious rules, or maintaining a rigid exercise and/or diet regimen for some folks. I see a couple sides here that are quite passionate about either side but probably mean no harm to one another. Some thrive on black/white, all/nothing, and others live in the gray areas and find comfort in talking about things in a way they feel goes deeper into the issue at hand than the legal process. Each seems bothered by the other. I don't have some genius, profound conclusion. I just see lots of well-intentioned people wishing their opponent acknowledged and reassured them that their feelings on the matter were valid.

I have so many other thoughts on the topic but they all involve anecdata, and I don't know enough about this Kavanaugh character and his "predicament" nor Feinstein and what she went through and is trying to bring to light now, so I won't try to speak about it. I just get the sense that there is a lot of passion and static happening here (as in lots of exciting threads here in hangout over the years) that people aren't really hearing each other. It's a tough subject, to say the very least. My heart goes out to anyone who has endured and survived any type of attack, regardless of how they deal with it.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Kavanaugh has already agreed to come forward on Monday. She has not.

Would love to hear from both side.

 

[AGBF]

Thank you @AGBF. If they need Trumps approval does anyone really think this investigation will take place?

You can call The White House and ask that the president have the FBI investigate because this woman, Cristina Miranda King, who was at Holton Arms a couple of years senior to Dr. Ford remembers hearing of the incident at the time.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/su...ls-hearing-alleged-kavanaugh-incident-n911111

AGBF

 

[AGBF]

For some comic relief amidst excellent commentary, watch this. I especially liked these lines:

"Not every man goes through a sexual assaulter phase"
"and for those of you who say 'boys will be boys'...you should not be allowed to raise boys"

https://www.yahoo.com/news/stephen-colbert-shreds-brett-kavanaugh-024517668.html

 

[Tekate]

Why would you say she took it for her own "personal enjoyment", that's snarky... I believe she took under advice of her attorney. I read that a former FBI agent administered the test. But as I said, polygraph tests are not admissible in court. As MOT says, all that is needed is the facts of this case Paula Jones has no merit in the case, as MOT would attest, what is pertinent is her story and veracity and proof. What Ford NEEDS is the power of testifying under oath by Kavanaugh, the other guy, people who knew about it before right now (like her therapist, husband, friends).. I believe she would testify to what she thinks is the time and place, it was traumatic, after my little incident I can't tell you the date or place, I know it happened in '67, of course I was a newly 14 year old and his woman says it happened at the end of her sophomore year..

I also think Paula Jones case is a bit different, she was 24, he did not hold her down and inadvertently try to choke her to death. And we both can agree that Donald Trump was MUCH MUCH worse in his abuse of women. Clinton settled for 850,000$ to me that shows he probably did it and wanted it to go away, but as many women can attest, these types of horrible things show the power men have over women to this day. For me, having Trump as molester in charge president is the same as having Bill Clinton to you. Disgusting human being.

Well a polygraph is very expensive so just taking one for your own personal enjoyment seems quite odd. And why is it that her lawyer will not give any info on who took it and who paid for it? The same lawyer who said Paula Jones had a weak case.
https://www.nytimes.com/1998/03/15/...suit-against-president-faces-big-hurdles.html

Ford will need to bring more facts to do any kind of investigation that would garner any kind of answers this many decades later, such as a date and a place. Plus names of the others at the party.

 

[cmd2014]

As a women who was sexually assaulted as a child and raped as an adult, I cannot thank you enough for speaking my truth so eloquently. I have been watching this all play out in stunned distress, unable to find my words. Even some who have experienced such things are not in a place to judge how another person responds to or copes with such an experience, because each individual responds differently on the basis of their own personality, mental health status, physical health status, and prior life experiences and traumas. I did not go to the police when I was raped for many reasons, not the least of which was that it triggered all the PTSD of my childhood assaults to such an extent that I was literally unable to function. I could not eat; I could not sleep; I could not go to work....if I had let anyone know at the time what had happened, I probably would have been hospitalized. In addition, I had been dating this man and had previously been sexually active with him. No one else was there. It would have been "he said/she said" in what was publicly known to others as a dating relationship. There was no hope of any justice, if I had even been capable of seeking it.

To this day, though, there is a voice within me that tells me I should be ashamed of myself - that I was "weak" - that I let other women down - even though I objectively know that I did the absolute best that I could do at the time. It frankly torments me still, and I can barely type this on a thread where I am anonymous for fear of inviting judgement that I didn't do it "the right way" then. I cannot imagine what this women is experiencing bringing this out now. Others, of either side, may have politicized her experiences - which is disgusting - but I don't for a minute believe she herself is doing this now because "it's handy timing" or for some political goal - because, no matter what happens with the nominee, she will lose. She will be judged so harshly.

I beg of those who read my words to search within for some compassion, some empathy for the experiences of others that differ from your own.

I am so sorry that this happened to you. I hope you are able to tell that little voice that you are strong, that you survived, and that you handled this the absolute best way that you knew/were able to do at the time. You needed to take care of you. You needed to survive. You couldn’t have done more than what you did. There is also no guarantee that anything would have been different even if you had reported it, apart from being further destroyed by a system that is not and has never been designed to protect women in these circumstances. Because we are still so attached to protecting the rights of the accused that we almost never see justice in sexual assault cases.

I have personally seen cases where the victim was so physically damaged that surgery was required, and the “maybe you just like it rough” approach was (successfully) used - because they happened to have been on a second or third date with the man who attacked them, and this is what he claimed, and his word alone erased her bruises, her trauma, her immediate calling of 911, the rape kit, the pictures of her severe vaginal tears that required reconstructive surgery, the fact that she was a credible, non-drunk, professional woman, and the fact that he ran and hid from the police. But “we were on a date and she told me she liked it rough” constituted reasonable doubt in the mind of the judge hearing the case. (I do work for Victims Services when I can, so have way more experience with this than I would like). So it’s no wonder women don’t come forward. There’s literally no point. So those of you who like to rattle stuff off about rule of law, know that the legal system isn’t about justice or truth, it’s about perceived credibility and who can twist the facts enough to make the most convincing argument, and the burden of proof is on the accuser in a scenario that there is never more than he said, she said based evidence, as he can excuse away all sorts of physical evidence by claiming consent - and the world is still hugely biased towards men as being seen as more credible, more believable, and more valuable than women, and it directly affects the outcomes in these cases.

This is a political discussion, and in my opinion, you should want the best possible candidate on your Supreme Court. Not some political pawn whose decisions you can manipulate, like your system seems to be geared towards. I find it hard to believe that anyone would find someone with the problems that this candidate presents with (above and beyond this particular matter) would be considered your best and brightest. And the political smear campaigns suggesting that women who don’t report right away are selfish and less credible as a way of defending a deeply flawed candidate is troubling to say the least.

 

[Tekate]

I totally agree with you Monnie. I try to provide the 'perhaps why' people do things. I believe your total assessment of why some people need authority, letter of the law, rigid in their beliefs, but some of it I also believe comes to upbringing and genetics, we are who we are (yay 1960s!!)..

I use anecdata to show where my opinions on things all types of things come from, but if one follows 'just the facts ma'am' then there is no middle. but I can say honestly that I was a bleeding heart for animals, people and injustice probably by 5 it is who I am. So as they say "never the twain shall meet". Thank you for your post.

Thoughts after reading this entire thread:

I think that certain things are easier for people to cope with when they adhere to the "safety" of following the letter of the law. Much like there is comfort found by following a set of religious rules, or maintaining a rigid exercise and/or diet regimen for some folks. I see a couple sides here that are quite passionate about either side but probably mean no harm to one another. Some thrive on black/white, all/nothing, and others live in the gray areas and find comfort in talking about things in a way they feel goes deeper into the issue at hand than the legal process. Each seems bothered by the other. I don't have some genius, profound conclusion. I just see lots of well-intention in people wishing their opponent acknowledged and reassured them that their feelings on the matter were valid.

I have so many other thoughts on the topic but they all involve anecdata, and I don't know enough about this Kavanaugh character and his "predicament" nor Feinstein and what she went through and is trying to bring to light now, so I won't try to speak about it. I just get the sense that there is a lot of passion and static happening here (as in lots of exciting threads here in hangout over the years) that people aren't really hearing each other. It's a tough subject, to say the very least. My heart goes out to anyone who has endured and survived any type of attack, regardless of how they deal with it.

 

[the_mother_thing]

@monarch64

I agree with your observation - some of us do place much value on the law, constitution, etc., while others perhaps place more value or find comfort in more ‘social’ scenarios (probably not the right words, but I’ve only had one cup of coffee). Neither is wrong; both are right because we’re all entitled to our beliefs. None of my comments or opinions in this thread were intended to hurt anyone or ‘downplay’ their personal experiences. I shared my perspective and reasons because many on here are asking “how can anyone doubt this woman’s story”. Everyone’s feelings are valid on the matter, even those whose opinions with which one might disagree. All we can do at this point is see how this particular situation (Ford/Kav/nomination) plays out.

Since my comment upthread about “selfish” in not reporting crimes was repeatedly brought up and taken in a way I did not intend, I will clarify: it was not a ‘defense’ for any perpetrator’s behavior, and I did not mean ‘you’ (whoever has not reported a crime) are a “selfish person”; rather, I view the act of not reporting the crime as selfish, much in the same way I view other acts as ‘selfish’ (I won’t further elaborate on those because that would be off-topic as well as likely be sensitive to another PSers recent experience, which is why I also won’t comment on anyone’s particular experience shared in this thread). I suspect others will disagree, and that’s their prerogative/right.

You can call The White House and ask that the president have the FBI investigate because this woman, Cristina Miranda King, who was at Holton Arms a couple of years senior to Dr. Ford remembers hearing of the incident at the time.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/su...ls-hearing-alleged-kavanaugh-incident-n911111

AGBF

FYI she has since retracted that statement. From your same article:

Democrats are calling for the FBI to investigate, but the bureau cannot do so unless the White House asks it to. There is no allegation of a federal crime, so the bureau's role would be to examine the matter as part of its background check into the fitness and character of a Supreme Court nominee.

...

She later posted on Facebook: "To all media, I will not be doing anymore interviews. No more circus for me. To clarify my post: I do not have first hand knowledge of the incident that Dr. Christine Blasey Ford mentions, and I stand by my support for Christine. That's it. I don't have more to say on the subject. Please don't contact me further."

NBC News confirmed that the statements were hers, but did not confirm her allegation. King has also been critical of Trump administration policy on social media.

I think her initial statement hurt Ford vs. helped, and that’s why she (King) took it down. Ford said she told no one of the incident until therapy years later, so how would people in her school (which was different than Kav’s) be talking about it days after it allegedly occurred? If Ford is telling the truth, I think King has discredited herself as a potential ‘witness’. If King is telling the truth, then that means Ford was not truthful in her statement that she told no one of the incident until therapy, and she is discredited. This is why I feel people should stick to the facts of what ‘is’.

 

[FL_Sol]

Hillary Clinton herself doesn't have trust in lie detector tests. She lost her faith in them after her client (who she knew was guilty), Thomas Alfred Taylor, passed a polygraph.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...ewly-discovered-audio-tapes-article-1.1832009
I can’t help but to think she took the lie detector test so that if it came back positive she wouldn’t even bother come out with this, if negetive she would. Whether she was assaulted or not and whether it was by Kavanaugh or not.

I dob’t believe nor disbelieve either of them. It comes down to evidence, I need evidence before I believe an accuser. Men have died by suicide due to false accusations of rape, even after the court of law ruled them completely innocent or the accuser withdrew their accusations. In one instance the mother killed her self after her son did because she couldn’t live without him.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ersary-death-couldn-t-future-without-him.html
This is a touchy subject of he said she said. I can’t say I believe nor disbelieve either of them. I refuse to punish someone for something with zero evidence. The reason I side a tad bit more with Kavanaugh is because I DO NOT believe rapists or people with rapist tendencies do it only once. I just don’t. At least not without getting caught.

About 7 years ago, while visiting my mother, I walked outside, into a loud conversation between my brother and his girlfriend. Neither knew I was standing there while this was going on. I heard her threaten to tell everyone that he hit her. He said “I never hit you” and she acknowledged it right in front of me in a very condescending way (still not knowing I was there). I stood there shocked. I finally mustered some words aboit what I heard and they ended it right there. She is a Baptist preacher’s daughter who never got in trouble and did well in school, my brother was selling pot and wrecked two cars within the past two years at that point and skipped school often. I am sure everyone would have believed her over him. It was 7 years ago and I still get sick thinking of what she could have done to him.

I have been raped two times in my life so please don’t even try to say I don’t understand. I understand perfectly. I just know that women can falsely accuse and be believed more often than the man.

I am not here to argue, just state some facts that may help some realize they are too quick to judge and pick sides. Maybe walking into that conversation with my brother and his girlfriend left an impression but I am glad it did so I have experience on both sides.

 

[redwood66]

Why would you say she took it for her own "personal enjoyment", that's snarky... I believe she took under advice of her attorney. I read that a former FBI agent administered the test. But as I said, polygraph tests are not admissible in court. As MOT says, all that is needed is the facts of this case Paula Jones has no merit in the case, as MOT would attest, what is pertinent is her story and veracity and proof. What Ford NEEDS is the power of testifying under oath by Kavanaugh, the other guy, people who knew about it before right now (like her therapist, husband, friends).. I believe she would testify to what she thinks is the time and place, it was traumatic, after my little incident I can't tell you the date or place, I know it happened in '67, of course I was a newly 14 year old and his woman says it happened at the end of her sophomore year..

I also think Paula Jones case is a bit different, she was 24, he did not hold her down and inadvertently try to choke her to death. And we both can agree that Donald Trump was MUCH MUCH worse in his abuse of women. Clinton settled for 850,000$ to me that shows he probably did it and wanted it to go away, but as many women can attest, these types of horrible things show the power men have over women to this day. For me, having Trump as molester in charge president is the same as having Bill Clinton to you. Disgusting human being.

I did not mean it to be snarky and am sorry you took it that way.

She also needs to testify and asked questions along with the others. The details are needed for any investigation into her allegations. Would you bring such a charge not being able to remember these details if you were in the same position? Can you understand how someone standing on the outside sees the whole thing as a big picture? None of this would ever be to delegitimize your claim in my mind so please do not take it that way. I fully understand and empathize with women and children who have been sexually abused.

FWIW I thought Bill Clinton was a much better President than Obama. Even with his failings.

 

[Tekate]

If anyone wants to read a 'real' story about being lower class and attacked this is it. This girl reported it, did not help her one bit and this story is only 12 years ago. It's very iffy because at least this girl had other school options but it did cause havoc in her life and shows what 'friends' can do to each other.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/opinions/arlington-texas/?utm_term=.6ab30feefa88