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1ofakind

Brilliant_Rock
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So by your interpretation he was defending both sides of people - one side was apparently a group of people who want to retain a statue of Robert E. Lee. An icon of the Confederacy, a general who was traitor to the US, and supported slavery? Why are those “very fine” people?
It is not my interpretation. It is what Trump said.

I can't answer your question. I didn't say they are very fine people.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
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21,793
I find the current political landscape so spun, distorted and sound massaged that it makes me nauseous - both sides are rhetoric machines using every possible opportunity to throw mud. Everyone has lost my trust.
Trump lost my trust ages ago I have hope in the Democrats, but they will have to watch out for Trump's attempts to rob them of a fair election. He is attempting to suppress the vote and the will of the American people because he see that they no longer support him, even in numbers to allow an electoral victory.

He has tampered with the USPS (United States Postal Service) which has its roots in the Pony Express and should be sacred. He wants to keep the sick and elderly from voting safely during a pandemic. He is allowing practices to like this to occur* He is beneath contempt.

*https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...or-absentee-ballots-despite-covid/ar-BB17T7cT
 

msop04

Ideal_Rock
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You may think that you can decipher Trump and then tell everyone else that you have the definitive translation of his gibberish. I do not believe anyone has a certificate in translating Trump's inarticulate utterances into English.My own interpretation is that Trump did suggest that white nationalists and neo-Nazis were very fine people. I believe that most Americans believe he meant that, too.
Here is the full interview... in no way did Trump say or suggest that white nationalists and/or neo-Nazis were very fine people. In fact, he specifically said the opposite. The media is counting on people to put their feelings/emotions over facts, because a lot of people don't care what was actually said, much less the context... even when presented with it.


Here is a snip of that portion of the interview (full interview linked above):


Reporter: "George Washington and Robert E. Lee are not the same."

Trump: "George Washington was a slave owner. Was George Washington a slave owner? So will George Washington now lose his status? Are we going to take down -- excuse me, are we going to take down statues to George Washington? How about Thomas Jefferson? What do you think of Thomas Jefferson? You like him?"

Reporter: "I do love Thomas Jefferson."

Trump: "Okay, good. Are we going to take down the statue? Because he was a major slave owner. Now, are we going to take down his statue?

"So you know what, it’s fine. You’re changing history. You’re changing culture. And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly.

"Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people. But you also had troublemakers, and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets, and with the baseball bats. You had a lot of bad people in the other group."


Reporter: "Sir, I just didn’t understand what you were saying. You were saying the press has treated white nationalists unfairly? I just don’t understand what you were saying."

Trump: "No, no. There were people in that rally -- and I looked the night before -- if you look, there were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day it looked like they had some rough, bad people -- neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them.

"But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest, and very legally protest
-- because, I don’t know if you know, they had a permit. The other group didn’t have a permit. So I only tell you this: There are two sides to a story. I thought what took place was a horrible moment for our country -- a horrible moment. But there are two sides to the country.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Here is the full interview... in no way did Trump say or suggest that white nationalists and/or neo-Nazis were very fine people. In fact, he specifically said the opposite. The media is counting on people to put their feelings/emotions over facts, because a lot of people don't care what was actually said, much less the context... even when presented with it.


Here is a snip of that portion of the interview (full interview linked above):


Reporter: "George Washington and Robert E. Lee are not the same."

Trump: "George Washington was a slave owner. Was George Washington a slave owner? So will George Washington now lose his status? Are we going to take down -- excuse me, are we going to take down statues to George Washington? How about Thomas Jefferson? What do you think of Thomas Jefferson? You like him?"

Reporter: "I do love Thomas Jefferson."

Trump: "Okay, good. Are we going to take down the statue? Because he was a major slave owner. Now, are we going to take down his statue?

"So you know what, it’s fine. You’re changing history. You’re changing culture. And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly.

"Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people. But you also had troublemakers, and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets, and with the baseball bats. You had a lot of bad people in the other group."


Reporter: "Sir, I just didn’t understand what you were saying. You were saying the press has treated white nationalists unfairly? I just don’t understand what you were saying."

Trump: "No, no. There were people in that rally -- and I looked the night before -- if you look, there were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day it looked like they had some rough, bad people -- neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them.

"But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest, and very legally protest -- because, I don’t know if you know, they had a permit. The other group didn’t have a permit. So I only tell you this: There are two sides to a story. I thought what took place was a horrible moment for our country -- a horrible moment. But there are two sides to the country.
There was a Nazi rally held there. Trump was on the wrong side. This is meaningless.
 

1ofakind

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
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1,119
The media is counting on people to put their feelings/emotions over facts, because a lot of people don't care what was actually said, much less the context... even when presented with it.
Yup, on full display here. Facts are indeed meaningless. What happened to critical thinking skills?
The criticism from the right is that even if Trump said the sky is blue the left would call him a liar. I never want to think delusion could be that strong but I believe it is where Trump is concerned.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Yup, on full display here. Facts are indeed meaningless. What happened to critical thinking skills?
The criticism from the right is that even if Trump said the sky is blue the left would call him a liar. I never want to think delusion could be that strong but I believe it is where Trump is concerned.
Many people know better than to listen to the words of a liar. Part of critical thinking is to consider your source. If your source is a known liar (like Trump) you had better take what he says with a grain of salt and look for a lot of proof to back up anything he says.
 

1ofakind

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Trump was on the wrong side. This is meaningless.
If the wrong side is condemning KKK, racists, white nationalists, neo-Nazi's, violence, hatred, divisiveness, bigotry from either side/extreme, saying that the person who ran over that woman was a murderer, a terrorist, that he is a disgrace....then I think 99.9% of Americans are on the wrong side.
 

moneymeister

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Joined
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Messages
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Trump lost my trust ages ago I have hope in the Democrats, but they will have to watch out for Trump's attempts to rob them of a fair election. He is attempting to suppress the vote and the will of the American people because he see that they no longer support him, even in numbers to allow an electoral victory.

He has tampered with the USPS (United States Postal Service) which has its roots in the Pony Express and should be sacred. He wants to keep the sick and elderly from voting safely during a pandemic. He is allowing practices to like this to occur* He is beneath contempt.

*https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...or-absentee-ballots-despite-covid/ar-BB17T7cT
The whole mail in vote issue is a minefield. If Trump wins, it will be said it was rigged, if he loses, it will be said it was rigged. Don't we already have absentee ballots? What has changed? Did he say he would do away with absentee ballots? nah, not that I could see.

I think the disagreement lies with proposed changes in how we run elections at the state level...should we just mail ballots out like WalMart circulars? That's a new process...what could go wrong? I would like to ask - what government process change runs smoothly? I'm going to "Ron Swanson" on this one. I look back on the early days of the Affordable Healthcare websites (Obamacare) that took months to operate correctly. When you change a process, things will happen. Just more *ish to fight over.

Is USPS a COVID crisis line item?. The USPS has been floundering for YEARS. Why suddenly an infusion built into COVID funding? Why can't it have it's own set aside analysis and funding discussion? If Trump really trying to throw the election or are the rules changing and he's bowing his back and people are screaming with the sound of 1,000 Karen's lit on fire.

Ugh, I will admit it. I am a Ron Swanson.

I trust no one not to spin this crap.
 

Demon

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The whole mail in vote issue is a minefield. If Trump wins, it will be said it was rigged, if he loses, it will be said it was rigged. Don't we already have absentee ballots? What has changed? Did he say he would do away with absentee ballots? nah, not that I could see.

I think the disagreement lies with proposed changes in how we run elections at the state level...should we just mail ballots out like WalMart circulars? That's a new process...what could go wrong? I would like to ask - what government process change runs smoothly? I'm going to "Ron Swanson" on this one. I look back on the early days of the Affordable Healthcare websites (Obamacare) that took months to operate correctly. When you change a process, things will happen. Just more *ish to fight over.

Is USPS a COVID crisis line item?. The USPS has been floundering for YEARS. Why suddenly an infusion built into COVID funding? Why can't it have it's own set aside analysis and funding discussion? If Trump really trying to throw the election or are the rules changing and he's bowing his back and people are screaming with the sound of 1,000 Karen's lit on fire.

Ugh, I will admit it. I am a Ron Swanson.

I trust no one not to spin this crap.
Ballots don't get mailed out like WalMart circulars. Here's a short and then a long version of how it works.


 

1ofakind

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
1,119
It would be one thing if we had clean and accurate voter rolls but most states do not. First time voting at our new address there were SIX other people registered at our address. Only 3 people live here and 1 was not registered at the time. Good grief....:eek2: There isn't time to fix that.

Now add to that that I already have to drop all my mail at the PO because people steal out of mail boxes. But somehow they won't steal ballots? Sure, OK.

Register at the DMV....ok. But what about people who have moved or changed addresses during COVID? My DD and SIL have an appointment at the finally open DMV to update license and they could also register to vote. Their appointment is in February 2021. And that is if there is not another delay due to further shut down. DMV systems all over the country are backed-up.

I don't believe that changing to mass mail-in voting cobbled together hastily and sloppily will be the best way to determine the true outcome of an election. Quite the opposite.
 

Demon

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
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Messages
1,260
It would be one thing if we had clean and accurate voter rolls but most states do not. First time voting at our new address there were SIX other people registered at our address. Only 3 people live here and 1 was not registered at the time. Good grief....:eek2: There isn't time to fix that.

Now add to that that I already have to drop all my mail at the PO because people steal out of mail boxes. But somehow they won't steal ballots? Sure, OK.

Register at the DMV....ok. But what about people who have moved or changed addresses during COVID? My DD and SIL have an appointment at the finally open DMV to update license and they could also register to vote. Their appointment is in February 2021. And that is if there is not another delay due to further shut down.

I don't believe that changing to mass mail-in voting cobbled together hastily and sloppily will be the best way to determine the true outcome of an election. Quite the opposite.
I don't believe there has been a single drop box stolen in CO. There are signature checks. (and yes - they DO do them. My daughter's signature didn't match, and she had to mail in a copy of her license and a signature to the county district attorney. I think there have been NINE instances out of 16,000,000 mailed votes in CO. And you can still vote in person if you want to.
 

msop04

Ideal_Rock
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Many people know better than to listen to the words of a liar. Part of critical thinking is to consider your source. If your source is a known liar (like Trump) you had better take what he says with a grain of salt and look for a lot of proof to back up anything he says.
You're right. Those who have made up their minds that everything he says is a lie aren't interested in facts. Case in point.
 

moneymeister

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
1,634
It would be one thing if we had clean and accurate voter rolls but most states do not. First time voting at our new address there were SIX other people registered at our address. Only 3 people live here and 1 was not registered at the time. Good grief....:eek2: There isn't time to fix that.

Now add to that that I already have to drop all my mail at the PO because people steal out of mail boxes. But somehow they won't steal ballots? Sure, OK.

Register at the DMV....ok. But what about people who have moved or changed addresses during COVID? My DD and SIL have an appointment at the finally open DMV to update license and they could also register to vote. Their appointment is in February 2021. And that is if there is not another delay due to further shut down. DMV systems all over the country are backed-up.

I don't believe that changing to mass mail-in voting cobbled together hastily and sloppily will be the best way to determine the true outcome of an election. Quite the opposite.
No better way to predict a disaster. On both sides, while people squabble over results and execution of the vote. We'd be on edge for weeks.
 

moneymeister

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
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I don't assume they cant. But absentee votes are also mailed in & that's the problem - trying to slow down the mail.
To be fair, USPS should get some money to tie them over for a bit - just like just about everyone else. I don't know about funding new initiatives that are a big departure from past operations. I do think it is very important that voting is accessible for everyone and especially people that are economically disadvantaged without transportation.
 

Demon

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To be fair, USPS should get some money to tie them over for a bit - just like just about everyone else. I don't know about funding new initiatives that are a big departure from past operations. I do think it is very important that voting is accessible for everyone and especially people that are economically disadvantaged without transportation.
We can definitely agree on that!
 

1ofakind

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
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I don't believe there has been a single drop box stolen in CO. There are signature checks. (and yes - they DO do them. My daughter's signature didn't match, and she had to mail in a copy of her license and a signature to the county district attorney. I think there have been NINE instances out of 16,000,000 mailed votes in CO. And you can still vote in person if you want to.
But we don't all live in Colorado where they have a system in place. No one is saying states that already doing mail-in should stop. There are zero drop boxes in my state. Some people can't get a licence or ID from DMV. There is no time to go through the DA's office like they do in CO....things are terribly backed up from COVID but now they have to process every voter in order to be able to do an accurate signature check? All in just 3 months?
 

moneymeister

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But we don't all live in Colorado where they have a system in place. No one is saying states that already doing mail-in should stop. There are zero drop boxes in my state. Some people can't get a licence or ID from DMV. There is no time to go through the DA's office like they do in CO....things are terribly backed up from COVID but now they have to process every voter in order to be able to do an accurate signature check? All in just 3 months?
I will say I loved the ballot tracking - if we could safeguard the process like that, I'd be on board/
 

Demon

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But we don't all live in Colorado where they have a system in place. No one is saying states that already doing mail-in should stop. There are zero drop boxes in my state. Some people can't get a licence or ID from DMV. There is no time to go through the DA's office like they do in CO....things are terribly backed up from COVID but now they have to process every voter in order to be able to do an accurate signature check? All in just 3 months?
I think, if the other states followed what CO (and the other states that vote by mail) has done, it shouldn't be that impossible. Do those people need a driver's license or ID to vote in person? The signatures don't all go through the DA - they're checked at the polling place, and only the ones that are suspect go through the DA.
 

Demon

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I will say I loved the ballot tracking - if we could safeguard the process like that, I'd be on board/
You can track it. I get my ballot, drop it off, check the county website to see if it's been received. Heck, they even text me to tell me they've got it and its been approved for counting. There's a barcode and everything on the ballot, lol. Pretty darn secure. There are no voting machines connected to the internet, when its done by mail. No hacking. I really don't understand why so many people are against it.
 

1ofakind

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I don't doubt that it can be done and I'm not necessarily against mail-in voting. I doubt that states can pull off what is needed in such a short amount of time, have the people and processes in place to ensure a fair and accurate vote. Governments just do not move that fast/effectively/efficiently.
 

Demon

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I don't doubt that it can be done and I'm not necessarily against mail-in voting. I doubt that states can pull off what is needed in such a short amount of time, have the people and processes in place to ensure a fair and accurate vote. Governments just do not move that fast/effectively/efficiently.
I think they could, if motivated. If they already allow absentee voting, the processes are in place. They just need to amp it up. I'm sure the states that already allow it would be more than happy to assist.
 

1ofakind

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I think they could, if motivated. If they already allow absentee voting, the processes are in place. They just need to amp it up. I'm sure the states that already allow it would be more than happy to assist.
Absentee ballots are by request only. To do all mail in voting the first step would be to clean up voter rolls and that by itself could take years, not months.
 

Maria D

Brilliant_Rock
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For those who are interested in the facts of the Charlottesville protests and counter-demonstrations:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/05/08/very-fine-people-charlottesville-who-were-they-2/

Trump may have believed (or wanted you to think he believed?) that there were peaceful protesters that were simply there to protest the removal of confederate monuments. But that is not true. There were white supremacists who staged the rally who were then joined by armed neo-nazis. There were counter protesters that included church groups, civil rights leaders and anti-fascist protestors (aka antifa). It was not a demonstration staged by "very fine people" that got out of hand when really ugly disgusting people showed up. It was the latter that staged the rally in the first place.

For me, the real point is this: when there is a rally that includes white supremacists, armed neo-nazis, men carrying torches while shouting anti-semitic chants and David Duke scheduled to speak, I do not want a president who makes statements about "very fine people" being on that side. I want a president who unequivocally condemns those people and their actions.

The alt-right GLOATED over the "very fine people" remark after Trump made it. They basked in the fact that the POTUS was on their side. Those of you here that think he was misunderstood should realize that racist groups believed his message supported them, even if you do not.
 

seaurchin

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Apparently, they don't notice that Russia, led by Trump's hero, cruel dictator Putin, is full of people with no rights at all - and they are WHITE.

Trump is a fascist and we are ALL in very dangerous times. He needs to go.
 

scouty

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Apparently, they don't notice that Russia, led by Trump's hero, cruel dictator Putin, is full of people with no rights at all - and they are WHITE.

Trump is a fascist and we are ALL in very dangerous times. He needs to go.
Trump draws on fascist ideology, particularity with his demonization of immigrants. Trump is using his own personal militia to target cities controlled by political opponents. It is also very telling that Hitler was fond of the antebellum South and Trump defends confederate monuments and the confederate flag.

It is very clear to me the path that the US is on.
 

Dancing Fire

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It is very clear to me the path that the US is on.
Yup...This is why Trump will win re-election. LAW AND ORDER!


 
Last edited:

Rhea

Ideal_Rock
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Trump does appear to be dismantling the USPS, just in time for absentee ballots to not make it back. It will hurt both major parties. It disenfranchises people and that's a problem. We need more people voting, not fewer. Let's not stick our heads in the sand, this is a direct attack on absentee voting.

Funding to the USPS has been cut so severely and now with Louis DeJoy as Postmaster General, Trump's cronnie who took over in May, it's gotten even worse. Once the USPS goes away or is cut down to make it completely ineffective it won't just come back easily, if it comes back at all. Americans rely on it, especially those in smaller, more rural communities, who by-the-by do tend to be more conservative voters. My concern is that Americans seem to be fine with rights being infringed (ie, less polling stations in poorer or black communities) on until it's them. I get the impression that until rural conservatives realise it might be them this November they just won't care about USPS.
(:wavey: Hi, Dad! I'm talking to and about you.)


It's such a divided country and divisive period in history. It cannot, absolutely cannot, be all fine until they come for you. It has to be a problem when anyone in power attempts to silence anyone weaker or less powerful. I don't think that's ever going to happen. It's getting worse and that scares me.

I'm not sure that any of these sources are "both sides" enough to get everyone up in arms, but it seems true, and this shit has got to stop.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/13/donald-trump-usps-post-office-election-funding

www.edition.cnn.com/2020/08/13/politics/trump-usps-funding-comments-2020-election/index.html

www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2020/08/13/trump-admits-to-blocking-usps-postal-service-funding-over-mail-in-voting
 
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