Victor Canera diamond sourcing vs. Brian Gavin Signature

[helpmefind30]

Id like to ask everyone their opinions on which path to take, I had started out with whiteflash a cut above diamonds and then reading about them, I had found the brian gavin signature hearts and arrows and figured I'd go with him because in my own opinion I thought it would be a very good quality diamond. (As I am looking for a literally top of the line triple ideal cut etc...) But then as I am getting my setting made by Victor Canera, I figured it might be best to just get a diamond through him instead to ease the shipping time and extra costs. Through diamond sourcing I was even offered to get a rough diamond cut to my specs of hearts and arrows etc. (since my budget is fairly high) for the same price as a stock diamond. I was curious to ask people because I feel like the BGS seems like good quality as he is a diamond expert and views the diamonds himself as well as he started the ACA series from whiteflash so I figured his line was better,although at the same time think the diamond sourcing would be easier but am unsure/nervous about the quality. Any thoughts?

 

[Acinom]

I am not a diamond expert, but I am sure the diamond experts will chime in soon.

Based on what I've read here on PS you cannot go wrong with any of them! Victor made a setting for me and he has an incredible eye for detail, for settings as well as diamonds. Have you already seen diamonds that meet your specifications?

Regarding cutting from rough: that would be a great and reqarding experience!!! I am convinced the outcome will be stunning. Will you be obliged to buy the diamond once it's cut to your specs? And what guarantees do you have regarding the carat weight?

If Victor is making the setting I would indeed explore what Victor can offer you in terms of gorgeous diamonds.

 

[arkieb1]

Brian Gavin and Victor are cutting their own signature Hearts & Arrows diamonds they have fairly similar if not identical proportions, if you are purchasing a diamond from Victor he will also give you a discount on the setting, so it might work out more cost effective to purchase both from him. He is a lovely guy which helps as well, and is in the process of cutting some new stones if you are not in a hurry. It depends what shape the diamond is and the specs you are after. Both Victor and Brian Gavin cut their own diamond lines and they both source diamonds for people they have not cut themselves - both Brian and Victor have impeccable taste selecting diamonds that have been called in or not cut by their own cutters, I don't think you could go wrong with either and I don't think one is better than the other, it's a matter of who can source or cut the best stone to meet your requirements.

 

[m-2-b]

I have bought diamonds from both Victor Canera and BGD so I consider them both great resources! I have used the upgrade policies from BGD most recently to get to my current 3.6ct H & A diamond since they have a wider selection of diamonds to choose from in larger ct weights. But I sent my diamond to Victor to make my setting so I got the best of both worlds!

 

[CharmyPoo]

I think Victor offers fantastic customer service and is so responsive. If you are getting a setting from him, I would consider him for the diamond.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Victor runs a custom settings business he certainly does not cut diamonds or have a cutting operation. He selects from cutters inventory and has much more inconsistent cut quality on his hearts and arrows line than BGD signature.

Some of Victor hearts and arrows diamonds do not meed AGS 0000 standards and are graded by GIA. Some or most would not meet Brian's standard for Hearts and Arrows. His photo setup is not optimal so it becomes difficult to judge the ASET and Idealscope(if provided).

Have you read this?
http://www.victorcanera.com/canera-ideal-hearts

Have you seen these?
http://www.victorcanera.com/diamonds/type/canera-ideal-hearts

Victor has the stones cut for him and he is not selecting from someone's inventory. He does what GOG does with their AVR/AVC.

 

[gemmyblond]

Just FYI....it appears that the depth/table #s for that stone are transposed on VC's page describing it. If you click on the GIA report itself, it shows table of 58% and depth of 61.6%, which makes a little more sense (to me at least!) and generates an HCA of 0.9.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Do you think this would meet the BGD signature line standard?

http://www.victorcanera.com/diamonds/zj1kep

I am also not comparing VC with BGD - the individual buyer can determine how their standards compare for both diamonds and customer service. I personally have far better customer service with Victor than I do with BGD. I have not done business with either but have attempted to in the past. Victor is one I would like to work with one day.

 

[Victor Canera]

Hi everyone,

Somebody tipped me off to this thread.

My hearts and arrows diamonds are sourced from Antwerp (just like many of the other top H&A lines) and manufactured by a specialized hearts and arrows manufacturer.

AGT, I think you missed the way we segment our round diamonds. We currently have a “Canera Ideal Hearts” line which are all graded by AGSL with AGS 000 scores. There’s currently only 1 diamond that is graded by GIA (the one you just linked to) in that line (which is also a H&A). All of the “Canera Ideal Hearts” line have been polished within the same process and factory for the past year or so. Here’s one example stone from this line: http://www.victorcanera.com/diamonds/padmwy I’m actually very proud of this line of round diamonds and I think that it can compete favorably against any of the top H&A brands being marketed out there. Canera Ideal Hearts all have ideal light performance, our preferred crown, pavilion angles, depth, table, LGFs etc. and are pretty homogeneous.

It is true that we’re still perfecting our photography setup which might or might not effect the appearance of some of the images but as you can see from the imagery of the stone above, we’re already pretty decent

The other line, “Value Select” is not a line of H&A diamonds. It’s for the consumer that wants a good value in a round diamond but also with nice make and precision. It’s also where we segment a stone that might be H&A but might have a shallow crown or a spec that our gemologist and I feel makes it not deserve the “Canera Ideal Hearts” brand. This stone here for example was rejected because of the shallow crown even though it’s a H&A and AGS 000: http://www.victorcanera.com/diamonds/rmhmrs .

At the end of the day, it’s about offering what the consumer wants. If you’re looking for a diamond that offers extreme precision, the Canera Ideal Hearts offers that. If you’re looking for a really nice diamond with a better value, our Value Select offers that.


All the best,

 

[CharmyPoo]

Appreciate Victor coming to clarify. For transparency purposes, I was not the person that tipped Victor off to the thread.

 

[gemmyblond]

Nor was I.

 

[TC1987]

Brian Gavin used to be with Whiteflash and he (and maybe others, I don't recall) developed their specifications for the ACA line. In addition to those brands already mentioned, there is also Crafted by Infinity.

So, buy the diamond based on price, qualifications, and performance. There are nuances to any individual diamond's appearance, so unless you REALLY know exactly what combinations of parameters you are looking for, I say look at them either in person or in a very good video. I know that I gravitate toward fat arrows, small table <= 56%, and strong contrast black/white patterns in diamonds. "Best" is subjective and to some people, the personality and eye appeal of the diamond are what count more than the paper and the "correctness" of the specs or precision of the cutting.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

If you are going with Victor's setting, I would certainly look at his diamonds. BG is not superior to Victor or WhiteFlash, in my opinion. And as Victor has already pointed out, there certainly are H&A diamonds certified by GIA. I have had one and you would be hard pressed to find a more precisely cut stone according to the helium scan.That stone was from Good Old Gold who also has excellent H&A stones. I also own WF ACA's which are outstanding, as well. I would see who of those 4 has the stone closest to what you want at the best price. Victor may offer some advantage for buying stone and setting from him, so ask about that as well.

 

[Victor Canera]

Hi AGT

I'd be happy to answer your questions. No, I am not a diamond polisher. Could you elaborate on your statement? It's hard to answer you when you make a blanket statement like that.

Here's another hearts photo of a diamond from our Canera Ideal Hearts line. This one from a VS2 clarity diamond. The one you just posted was from an Si2 clarity stone. The inclusions slightly clutter the view of the hearts. We did not alter the photo in any way to make the hearts more visible and hide the inclusions.


A lot of the differences between one vendor and another can be attributed to the photo setups that they use in photographing their diamonds. We pride ourselves and photographing diamonds using high precision optical equipment and white background ASET. Our real life photos tend to actually exaggerate inclusions in a diamond.

Going forward though, we are one of the only jewelry or diamond houses (or even wholesalers of diamonds) who has physically bought a "sight" of diamonds (assorted box of rough diamonds) from a mining company to manufacture. We're unique in that we will be selecting our own assortment and will have them manufactured with our selected polisher. When I say polisher, I don't mean a wholesaler of diamonds but the actual craftsman that polishes the stone. We've tried close to a dozen diamond polishers with different prototypes of diamonds to see which actual craftsman can polish a diamond to our own level of precision.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

agt, you do realize that BG has his diamonds cut at a factory overseas as well???

I should add that I have a diamond that was recut by BG's factory. It turned out beautifully (but not H&A). But I'd happily buy a diamond from Victor as I believe his are as well cut.

 

[c-k]

[/quote]

Do you think this would meet the BGD signature line standard?

http://www.victorcanera.com/diamonds/zj1kep[/quote]

Nope...it would not meet his standard

 

[diamondseeker2006]

AGT, you are very obviously involved in the diamond industry, and to not identify yourself, you are breaking forum rules. I doubt the casual diamond shopper has the expertise you seem to have.

 

[Acinom]

AGT, you are very obviously involved in the diamond industry, and to not identify yourself, you are breaking forum rules. I doubt the casual diamond shopper has the expertise you seem to have.

+1!!!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I have nothing whatsoever against Brian and I think his diamonds are outstanding. But you can see an occasional cleft in hearts and all shoulders not being the exact same width. Good grief.

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.508-g-vs2-round-diamond-ags-104060710013#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/3/

 

[momma2boys]

AGT - after reading this first paragraph, I strongly disagree with you.

I did not enter this thread to give you an opportunity to market yourself, unfortunately as a result of my post(s) you have taken the liberty to do so. I have no horse in this race, I have not purchased from any vendor mentioned in this thread and the last thing I am interested in is chearleading or disparaging either your or Brian Gavin. However since my posts have been challenged I find myself in the unenviable position of having to defend my earlier post in detail.

You chose to come on this forum to negatively challenge Victor Canera's diamond quality. VC is far from marketing himself, as you indicate, rather he is simply correcting the information that you are putting out there. Your posts have a right to be challenged!!!!!

I have not worked with either BG or VC, but from what I've learned on this forum in my short time being on here, it would be a privilege to do so.

 

[Victor Canera]

That's great AGT. I love a good discussion about diamonds.

It seems that you're focusing on the 1 GIA certified Si2 clarity H&A diamond that we have.

We’re aware of the HRD paper and have read it a few times. I would recommend any H&A lover to read it over as well.

I would disagree with you on one thing. Photography does make a big difference in the symmetry of the hearts images. We try very hard to photograph the stones as accurately as possible. If the diamond is not directly underneath (literally right under) the camera, the hearts can seem slightly asymmetrical (even though they’re not) and the lobes to appear slightly uneven (even though they’re not). I’ll have this particular stone re-photographed and we’ll re-examine it.

I'm attaching a photo of the hearts scope of a cleaner VS2 clarity diamond for comparison. The comments are based on HRD's H&A paper. I think the results will speak for themselves.


I've only made responses to your claims. Whether I'm marketing myself will be a decision that the community and moderators of this forum will make.


My Best,

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Just for the record, I was also not the one who alerted Victor to the thread. But he certainly had no choice but to defend himself and correct false information stated. In no way could it be considered "marketing himself". He doesn't need to do that because his reputation is known to be among the best.

 

[c-k]

There seem to be more vendors branding their diamonds 'Hearts & Arrows'.

What is the industry standard? Is there an industry standard? Is there industry guidelines?

HRD Antwerp is the only source that I can find that has some sort of written guidelines for H&A's, but does that make it an industry standard?

I suppose any vendor/seller can brand their diamonds H&A, but does it really make it so?

The consumer has demanded these so called H&A's, makes for more profit? makes for a better cut diamond? .....or is a mind thing?.....H&A's sounds neat, these brand names on these lab reports look good, if it really makes a difference, I see why someone would want a H&A.....I would want one, but I want to make sure if I pay a premium, I get one.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Anyone can call a diamond H&A just as EGL can call a GIA J color diamond F color. EGL writes H&A on some reports, but I don't believe they offer the proof. It is up to you to examine the hearts images and determine the level of perfection you require. You will be hard pressed to find any vendor that has 100% perfect hearts images. But the vendors here already mentioned have the most consistently good ones.

 

[c-k]

Anyone can call a diamond H&A just as EGL can call a GIA J color diamond F color. EGL writes H&A on some reports, but I don't believe they offer the proof. It is up to you to examine the hearts images and determine the level of perfection you require. You will be hard pressed to find any vendor that has 100% perfect hearts images. But the vendors here already mentioned have the most consistently good ones.

EGL call a GIA J color diamond F color? really

Yes, it is up to the consumer to determine what is best for them...just as the Pricescope community majority feels that an GIA is the top lab, maybe AGSL second, the others such as EGL (well that is for another thread), it will likey also do so with who sells true H&A's and to some extent already has.

All this discussion is good, the more one knows, the better they can make a wise choice.

 

[arkieb1]

Hi AGT

It's hard to answer you when you make a blanket statement like that.

Victor,

I did not enter this thread to give you an opportunity to market yourself, unfortunately as a result of my post(s) you have taken the liberty to do so. I have no horse in this race, I have not purchased from any vendor mentioned in this thread and the last thing I am interested in is chearleading or disparaging either your or Brian Gavin. However since my posts have been challenged I find myself in the unenviable position of having to defend my earlier post in detail.

The differences between examples of your line and those of BGD are obvious to me and I will use one example to clarify my point. They have nothing to do with the photography setup nor inclusions and are simply the result of cut precision flaws. In short the cut precision in your line is inferior to Brian's in every example I have seen.

Using the HRD antwerp H&A cut grading guidelines I have annotated the precision flaws seen in the HEARTS image below. I believe this diamond in your "Canera Hearts Line" would fail their H&A optical symmetry test or at best would be a borderline pass.

http://www.hrdantwerp.be/media/24344/hearts_arrows_guidelines.pdf
1) Green circles - Hearts shoulders should be uniform width - Low Penalty
2) Orange Arrows - Cleft in the hearts from too long LGF - Low Penalty
3) Green Arrows - Assymetrical Hearts, the left side and the right side of the heart are assymetrical - Medium Penalty
4) Pink Circled Area - Balance Between Vs -The center pattern consisting of eight V`s should be well balanced. - Medium Penalty

There are many more criteria but I think that everyone can get an idea from what I have annotated below.

That is really funny, if you work in the Industry you should identify yourself, and I was asleep so I am not the one who tipped Victor off to this post for the record either. Most of the Vendors who get cutters like Yoram and others to cut diamonds for them ie use specific top cutters refer to this as cutting their own lines or signature diamonds. Brian, Victor and GOG all do this, none of them specifically sit at a cutters wheel and cut diamonds.

Secondly my husband's family DO actually work in the industry and I know where each one of them get their diamonds cut, so I know for a fact what you are saying is incorrect. I am not going to say where they are all cut because I think it would possibly be against the rules on here unless I start declaring myself as trade, which I do not because I am not personally selling anything. But Brian's stones are no better than Victor's stones. Some of the stones Brian currently has in his inventory might have better HCA scores, I put this down to the fact he has a bigger inventory than Victor's when Victor gets some brand new stones in look at them, they will have similar scores. Equally not all of Brian Gavin's have what I consider perfect HCAs either.

I have said very clearly up the top that the original poster should buy the stone from which ever vendor can best provide one that meets their criteria, meaning the size, colour and clarity they seek. Sometimes that is the best you can do, especially when you are searching for a larger diamond.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Anyone can call a diamond H&A just as EGL can call a GIA J color diamond F color. EGL writes H&A on some reports, but I don't believe they offer the proof. It is up to you to examine the hearts images and determine the level of perfection you require. You will be hard pressed to find any vendor that has 100% perfect hearts images. But the vendors here already mentioned have the most consistently good ones.

EGL call a GIA J color diamond F color? really

Yes, it is up to the consumer to determine what is best for them...just as the Pricescope community majority feels that an GIA is the top lab, maybe AGSL second, the others such as EGL (well that is for another thread), it will likey also do so with who sells true H&A's and to some extent already has.

All this discussion is good, the more one knows, the better they can make a wise choice.

EGL color grades are often off 1-4 or even more grades depending on which EGL lab does the grading. EGL International is usually less reliable than EGL US. I would say most people here for a period of time would say that GIA and AGS are the two most reliable labs and would not buy a diamond not graded by one of them unless it is an antique stone.

 

[c-k]

EGL color grades are often off 1-4 or even more grades depending on which EGL lab does the grading. EGL International is usually less reliable than EGL US. I would say most people here for a period of time would say that GIA and AGS are the two most reliable labs and would not buy a diamond not graded by one of them unless it is an antique stone.

I don't know, comments like this are suspect. You are likely correct, but that does not mean a good buy can't be had from a EGL stone. Yes I know all about soft EGL grading, but to put each and every one in the same boat?...say you purchase a pair of EGL stones for studs, knowing the EGL issues, getting 2 - maybe 3 or even 4 color/clarity less, if the price is right you purchase the stones - not the paper. You may have a budget for a GIA J/SI2, but find a EGL G/VS2 for even less money, I would not pass it up, at least take a look.

Then you have those that state AGSL is soft compared to GIA or GIA is softer than AGSL....my personal thoughts are if you like paper as well as grading detail, look for an AGSL 000 stone, if you don't want to pay a premium look for a GIA XXX stone, bottom line is you still buy the stone. Its how high do you want to go, some are happy with the middle road, others need only the best.

I think most of those who are regular readers of pricescope are educated consumers and they know what they want and where to look. This forum is a great example of how someone who would spend a bit of time can get a good basic education on buying a diamond.

 

[smilligan]

EGL color grades are often off 1-4 or even more grades depending on which EGL lab does the grading. EGL International is usually less reliable than EGL US. I would say most people here for a period of time would say that GIA and AGS are the two most reliable labs and would not buy a diamond not graded by one of them unless it is an antique stone.

I don't know, comments like this are suspect. You are likely correct, but that does not mean a good buy can't be had from a EGL stone. Yes I know all about soft EGL grading, but to put each and every one in the same boat?...say you purchase a pair of EGL stones for studs, knowing the EGL issues, getting 2 - maybe 3 or even 4 color/clarity less, if the price is right you purchase the stones - not the paper. You may have a budget for a GIA J/SI2, but find a EGL G/VS2 for even less money, I would not pass it up, at least take a look.

Then you have those that state AGSL is soft compared to GIA or GIA is softer than AGSL....my personal thoughts are if you like paper as well as grading detail, look for an AGSL 000 stone, if you don't want to pay a premium look for a GIA XXX stone, bottom line is you still buy the stone. Its how high do you want to go, some are happy with the middle road, others need only the best.

I think most of those who are regular readers of pricescope are educated consumers and they know what they want and where to look. This forum is a great example of how someone who would spend a bit of time can get a good basic education on buying a diamond.

DS is correct. There are plenty of threads regarding people who have purchased EGL stones only to have them graded by GIA and come back way off. It all washes out. You never really get a "deal" with EGL stones. You pay less for EGL and more for GIA. Period. No vendor is going to sell a diamond for less than it's actually worth. That would defeat the purpose. Please note that I'm not talking about the difference between "wholesalers" and BM stores. 99% of the time, vendors get a stone graded by EGL because they know GIA will grade it poorly and it's EASIER to sell with higher grades. They don't do it to make more money, necessarily. And AGS is softer than GIA in color grading, sometimes by 1 grade. GIA is softer than AGS in cut grading, as their Excellent grade is very broad. To say that all GIA XXX's will be just as good as all AGS 000's is simply untrue.

 

[arkieb1]

EGL color grades are often off 1-4 or even more grades depending on which EGL lab does the grading. EGL International is usually less reliable than EGL US. I would say most people here for a period of time would say that GIA and AGS are the two most reliable labs and would not buy a diamond not graded by one of them unless it is an antique stone.

I don't know, comments like this are suspect. You are likely correct, but that does not mean a good buy can't be had from a EGL stone. Yes I know all about soft EGL grading, but to put each and every one in the same boat?...say you purchase a pair of EGL stones for studs, knowing the EGL issues, getting 2 - maybe 3 or even 4 color/clarity less, if the price is right you purchase the stones - not the paper. You may have a budget for a GIA J/SI2, but find a EGL G/VS2 for even less money, I would not pass it up, at least take a look.

Then you have those that state AGSL is soft compared to GIA or GIA is softer than AGSL....my personal thoughts are if you like paper as well as grading detail, look for an AGSL 000 stone, if you don't want to pay a premium look for a GIA XXX stone, bottom line is you still buy the stone. Its how high do you want to go, some are happy with the middle road, others need only the best.

I think most of those who are regular readers of pricescope are educated consumers and they know what they want and where to look. This forum is a great example of how someone who would spend a bit of time can get a good basic education on buying a diamond.

That is ridiculous, comments like yours are suspect and clueless at best. It is a known fact EGL International grades diamonds way off in colour usually 2 to 3 in colour but up to 5 or 6 in colour and usually around 1 to 2 but it can be 3 or 4 in clarity. The reason for this is they are graded in labs in India, Hong Kong and Israel without strict grading standards and often for the specific purpose of selling more diamonds and nothing more. The cut grades they give like triple excellent cuts and Hearts and Arrows are frequently outside what GIA classify at such as well.

It is true having said that, that EGL USA is currently attempting to clean up it's act and get their grading more in line with GIA. In the past they have commonly been 1 to 2 grades out in colour and around 1 up to 2 in clarity.

There have been numerous members, new ones in particular, that purchase EGL graded stones that appear on here with stories about how they go to sell them or get them valued and are shocked when they get a real or more accurate indication of what they actually own. A couple of well respected appraisers on here have also written articles on EGL stones.

I do agree if you fully comprehend what you are buying and are comfortable with that then knock yourself out. But by in large mislabelling the REAL colour and clarity and cut quality of a diamond is misleading to most general consumers and I have yet to see someone get a great bargain from EGL because you might think you are getting a bargain when in fact you could have purchased a similarly graded GIA stone (which was a low colour & clarity) when it all boils down to it for a similar price anyway.

Using your own example if you purchase an EGL G VS2 for what you think is a great price, and you think you are getting a deal because it was cheaper than the GIA J/SI2 that you had your eye on, when you go to sell it or get it valued for insurance, when it actually comes back a GIA L with I1 clarity (and this has happened to numerous people on here) then it's not so great..... People who sell EGL graded stones are not idiots they know the difference between an EGL graded stone that is really a GIA J and really a GIA L and they price them accordingly....

Unless you surf ebay a lot or go to estate auctions every week there is no such thing as a bargain when purchasing a diamond and that includes buying a badly mislabelled one from a vendor selling stone graded by EGL.

Anyway, the poor person that posted this thread is asking about Victor versus Brian's diamonds, if you want to get everyone's views on EGL start your own thread, some of the appraisers that have been working in the Industry for years will hopefully show up and give you some facts of what they have seen.