Very disappointed after seeing stones at 2 jewelers

[PrecisionGem]

I think the comments about a "precision cut" not bringing out the color of a stone are not accurate. Rather, you are seeing poorly cut stones of better quality material, and comparing them to well cut stones of inferior material. Many cutters do not spend the money on really quality rough, they hope to buy a relatively cheap piece of rough, and turn it into a spectacular stone with their cutting. The quality cutting does bring out the best in the stone, but the stone it''s self just isn''t the best color or quality. The bottom line is with rough, is there are no great deals. To get the best stones, you need to pay top price, no one in this business gives anything away. But precision cutting can bring out the most of a stone. Take my avitar for example. It''s an Aquamarine from Mozambique. I really doubt if it was native cut, with the typical window and poor polish it would like anywhere near as nice as it is now. Nor would it be valued as much. This was a case of a really nice piece of rough, that I paid a lot for, but the cutting made this stone.

The only case where maybe poor cutting actually helps a stone, is on one that is overly dark, and the window allows you to see some color. But then this isn''t a stone you really want to own anyways.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 10/2/2008 10:12:16 PM
Author: Harriet

Date: 10/1/2008 7:56:01 PM
Author: FrekeChild
But I'll probably be sticking with cutters as much as I possibly can for as long as I can.

Freke,
When I first started collecting (it seems like yonks and donks ago, even though it's been only 2 years), I had the same mindset. However, after seeing more and more 'native cut' stones, I was converted to the colour-trumps school. Now, I'll happily accept a less than perfectly cut stone if the colour grabs me.

Oh I hear you Harriet! I think I have predominantly American cut stones, but regardless of that, I saw my native cut tourmaline with a gigantor window and had to have it because I loved the color. So I'm the same way.

But I've still never seen anything sparkle the same way my Dan Stair spinel does...

ETA: really they are two different breeds of animals, for me (and most CS fans, I imagine) color trumps all, but something thats well cut and has decent color is nice too. Personally, I'll buy something that has a color I love-regardless of cut (so long as I can afford it), but I'll take something that's precision cut that doesn't have the exact perfect color over a poorly cut stone with perfect color.

It just gets tricky with perfect color/ok cut vs. perfect cut/ok color. Then I'll just go with whichever stone speaks to me more.

 

[Pandora II]

I have nothing against precision in cutting - but I like older types of cuts not these things that look like computer graphics.

Also, there are stones cut in the country of origin which don''t have windows or completely off meet-points. It''s just a case of hunting them down.

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 10/3/2008 4:00:34 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
I think the comments about a 'precision cut' not bringing out the color of a stone are not accurate. Rather, you are seeing poorly cut stones of better quality material, and comparing them to well cut stones of inferior material. Many cutters do not spend the money on really quality rough, they hope to buy a relatively cheap piece of rough, and turn it into a spectacular stone with their cutting. The quality cutting does bring out the best in the stone, but the stone it's self just isn't the best color or quality. The bottom line is with rough, is there are no great deals. To get the best stones, you need to pay top price, no one in this business gives anything away. But precision cutting can bring out the most of a stone. Take my avitar for example. It's an Aquamarine from Mozambique. I really doubt if it was native cut, with the typical window and poor polish it would like anywhere near as nice as it is now. Nor would it be valued as much. This was a case of a really nice piece of rough, that I paid a lot for, but the cutting made this stone.

The only case where maybe poor cutting actually helps a stone, is on one that is overly dark, and the window allows you to see some color. But then this isn't a stone you really want to own anyways.

Gene, respectfuly I must disagree. IMO most american lapidariest simply follow a preset pattern without taking all the variables of a stones potential into account. As an example most " American" cutters will not cut a stone deeper than 70% even though doing so would give more saturation. They are more concerned with getting close to the critical angle. A belly on a stone is not a dirty word with me because in a lot of instances the belly minimizes a tilt window. I have seen pictures before and after recuts and I assume since the cutter took the picture in a light box that lighting conditions were identical. Yet after the recut saturation did not look as strong. We all have our own opinions. Mine is that most "native" cutters are better at getting the best color out of a given stone. As for buying rough most American cutters do not have access to the truly prime material. IMO

 

[PrecisionGem]

Colormyworld, when you say saturation, I think you mean density of color. The saturation won''t be altered with cutting, but the perceived density of the color would, mainly because the stone is smaller, and possible brighter.

Just what variables do you think the native cutters know about that us American cutters don''t? The NUMBER 1 thing that the native cutters take into account is finished weight, and the NUBMER 2 is face up size. I think that if you compared American precision cut lab created material, to the exact material cut in China in the "traditional" style, you would see the American stone would be much nicer.

It''s true that we typically don''t have access to the really prime sapphire, ruby or emerald material, but can, if you are willing to pay for it get fantastic garnets, tourmaline, beryl, zircon and others.

 

[colormyworld]

Date: 10/3/2008 7:30:58 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
Colormyworld, when you say saturation, I think you mean density of color. The saturation won't be altered with cutting, but the perceived density of the color would, mainly because the stone is smaller, and possible brighter.

Just what variables do you think the native cutters know about that us American cutters don't? The NUMBER 1 thing that the native cutters take into account is finished weight, and the NUBMER 2 is face up size. I think that if you compared American precision cut lab created material, to the exact material cut in China in the 'traditional' style, you would see the American stone would be much nicer.

It's true that we typically don't have access to the really prime sapphire, ruby or emerald material, but can, if you are willing to pay for it get fantastic garnets, tourmaline, beryl, zircon and others.

So a longer light path in a stone does not result in more color being shown? Extra depth in a stone will increase saturation from what I have seen. Of course there is a point of diminished return. Some extinction is also not a bad thing in my opinion. As some facets going dark while other facets are lit up is what scintilation is all about.In your second paragraph I agree about the cutting of lab created material. The rub for me is in natural stones there is not any where near the uniformity of color as there is in the lab created stuff. Which is what I am saying that these "native" cutters are able to bring out. Not all of course but IMO they for the most part do cut more for color than do "precision" cutters.

 

[PrecisionGem]

In a gem, saturation refers to the purity of color. I think you are using saturation to refer to tone. A smaller stone of the same material will look like it has a lighter tone.
Go to the Gem-e-wizard site, and play around with the colors. You''ll see that a stone can have the same tone, but a saturation of 1 will be very grayish red, while 6 will be pure red for example. There are no tricks to make the saturation of a stone change. A longer light path can make a stone appear to have a darker tone, but not change the saturation.

 

[colormyworld]

I am talking about the strenth of the color. Not tone. Look through a pane of colorless glass. See any color? Now look through the same glass through the edge. Why is it green? Has the saturation not become MUCH stronger?

 

[FrekeChild]

Saturation:

1. the act or process of saturating.
2. the state of being saturated.
3. Meteorology. a condition in the atmosphere corresponding to 100 percent relative humidity.
4. the degree of chroma or purity of a color; the degree of freedom from admixture with white.
5. Magnetism. the state of maximum magnetization of a ferromagnetic material.

1.
1. The act or process of saturating.
2. The condition of being saturated.
3. The condition of being full to or beyond satisfaction; satiety.
2. Physics A state of a ferromagnetic substance in which an increase in applied magnetic field strength does not produce an increase in magnetization.
3. Chemistry The state of a compound or solution that is fully saturated.
4. Meteorology A condition in which air at a specific temperature contains all the water vapor it can hold; 100 percent relative humidity.
5. Vividness of hue; degree of difference from a gray of the same lightness or brightness. Also called intensity. See Table at color.
6. Intensive shelling or bombing of a military target to achieve total destruction.
7. The flooding of a market with all of a commodity that consumers can purchase.

noun
1. the process of totally saturating something with a substance; "the impregnation of wood with preservative"; "the saturation of cotton with ether" [syn: impregnation]
2. the act of soaking thoroughly with a liquid
3. a condition in which a quantity no longer responds to some external influence
4. chromatic purity: freedom from dilution with white and hence vivid in hue

Tone (abbreviated because it was really long):

9. a quality of color with reference to the degree of absorption or reflection of light; a tint or shade; value.
10. that distinctive quality by which colors differ from one another in addition to their differences indicated by chroma, tint, shade; a slight modification of a given color; hue: green with a yellowish tone.
11. Art. the prevailing effect of harmony of color and values.


Hue:

1. a gradation or variety of a color; tint: pale hues.
2. the property of light by which the color of an object is classified as red, blue, green, or yellow in reference to the spectrum.
3. color: all the hues of the rainbow.
4. form or appearance.

1. The property of colors by which they can be perceived as ranging from red through yellow, green, and blue, as determined by the dominant wavelength of the light. See Table at color.
2. A particular gradation of color; a shade or tint.
3. Color: all the hues of the rainbow.

Intensity:

6. the strength or sharpness of a color due esp. to its degree of freedom from admixture with its complementary color.

All from Dictionary.com

 

[icekid]

interesting discussion- I don''t really think this needs to be a case of native vs precision cut though. I agree that it''s true that our favorite American cutters do not have access to some of the top rough. However, for me, that''s not really a problem. I just don''t have the inclination to spend the sort of money required to buy ideal color material anyway. And of course, at the moment, I don''t have the financial resources either.. but I will in a few years

And I still don''t think my rock spending will increase exponetially, because I am just too fiscally responsible to put $$$$ into small rocks. So maybe my collection doesn''t feature the crème de la crème of color, but I buy stones that are appealing to me for one reason or another- be it the color, cut/sparkle, etc. Not all of us necessarily prefer the "best" color all of the time anyway. I like my stones to be lively, and that means good cut. Color first definitely, but cut is right there too.

I''ve generally been purchasing more from the custom cutters, and probably will continue to do so. Though I do currently have my eye on some Moz tourmaline that is definitely native cut. They both have a place in my collection

 

[PrecisionGem]

Well, when talking about colored stones, there are a few terms that need to be understood.... Hue, Tone, and Saturation. They may mean something a bit different than a dictionary definition. Saturation is graded on a scale from 1 to 6, and tone on a scale of 1 to 10.

Saturation:
1 - grayish cool or brownish warm
2 - slightly grayish
3 - very slightly grayish
4 - moderatly strong
5 - strong
6 - vivid

Cutting can not change saturation.

Hue is the position of a color on a color wheel, Tone is the degree of lightness or darkness of that color, and Saturation is the intensity of that color. Cutting can mostly effect the Tone of the stone.

As far as cutters having access to top quality stones, they are available, just most will not pay the prices. I was offered a very large top color chrome tourmaline last spring from Tanzania. The price was $7000 for the rough. It would have cut around a 15 ct stone. I passed on it, only because Chrome are a tough sell. But how often do you see a 15 chrome tourmaline?