Vendors must find PS Asscher Education annoying

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 12/6/2006 9:26:17 AM
Author: starryeyed
That''s interesting Indecisive. That''s a heck of a thing for a consumer though - to have to pay to look at diamonds. I could easily see why a vendor would want to charge, but I would think it''s part of building a relationship and ''the cost of doing business''. Maybe asschers are where a trip to the Diamond District makes sense!

Asschers aren''t the only cut that make a trip there worth while. And yes, it sucks to have to pay to look at stones but the alternative is to have that cost (and some) built in to the cost at a B&M.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 12/6/2006 12:21:41 PM
Author: strmrdr

With the AGS cut grade that should get easier after a time but the prices will rise also so that is kinda a catch 22.
I would be perfectly happy for a steady source of consistant awesome asschers to be available from multiple vendors and cutters and all the hassles go away.
Then Garry will have to find something else to pick on me about :}

I look forward to that day but also think if it happens its atleast 18 months out from now.
Paul will no doubt hit the market before that and open some more options, I''m looking forward to that also.
With his track record they should be awesome and the cream of the crop.

I remember reading once that what was considered ''ideal'' for a princess was later found to be off.... any chance the numbers AGS comes out with for asschers will only show one ''ideal'' in a pretty darn complex cut and ignore others? I guess that''s true with all cuts, even rounds, but still... curious about this.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

It is way not that simple.

Rounds have a simple relationship between crown and pavilion angle because there is only 1 main facet angle for each - hence HCA and GIA''s copy of it work fairly well.

AGS built these charts with litterally thousands of DiamCalc ASET images for Asschers.
This one is for a 60% table with 18% (normal) corners.

They range from 21 degree to 70 degrees for both crown (horizontal axis) and pavilion angles.

BUT - this is for 3 step stones and they have used a 7 degree difference between each of the crown angles and a 11 degree and - 7 diff for the 3 pavilion angles.

Note that there are waves and bands of red zones - these are the proportion sets where you would cut - and note ther are several of them.


NOW - what if you changed to - -3 for the first crown and - 11 for the third etc etc etc

There are so many millions of combinations that poor Paul will pul out all his hair.

Remeber every red zone is where the teeny little ASET images gather to make one big red blur and the blue zones are where there is too much very high angle light return.

(they do these for fire and also 40 degree ASET maps too.)

Without DiamCalc none of this would work.

Princess cuts also have these multiple zones - but they only have 2 each crown and pavilion angles so there are about 1 trillion less options.

 

[kenny]

Garry is there a good zone in there?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/6/2006 10:58:32 PM
Author: kenny
Garry is there a good zone in there?

I have it on good authority that there are several good zones not just one.
That is what makes it hard, look at the isolated pockets of red surround by green and blue.
With rounds there is one large area with very small issolated pockets.
This confirms what Iv found in my studies also.
It is not easy and when you hit the multiple critical points a very small change in any of the angles can toss the whole stone out of the top ring.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/6/2006 8:25:02 PM
Author: Cehrabehra

Date: 12/6/2006 12:21:41 PM
Author: strmrdr

With the AGS cut grade that should get easier after a time but the prices will rise also so that is kinda a catch 22.
I would be perfectly happy for a steady source of consistant awesome asschers to be available from multiple vendors and cutters and all the hassles go away.
Then Garry will have to find something else to pick on me about :}

I look forward to that day but also think if it happens its atleast 18 months out from now.
Paul will no doubt hit the market before that and open some more options, I'm looking forward to that also.
With his track record they should be awesome and the cream of the crop.

I remember reading once that what was considered 'ideal' for a princess was later found to be off.... any chance the numbers AGS comes out with for asschers will only show one 'ideal' in a pretty darn complex cut and ignore others? I guess that's true with all cuts, even rounds, but still... curious about this.

I have said many times that I was afraid that might be the case but AGS has since then said that several styles or looks will make the top grade.
I'm very very happy that they have addressed the issue.
Time will tell for sure but im encourage by what they have been saying so far.
See my above comment on multiple good zones.

 

[strmrdr]

Garry is it fair to say we will never see something like this for AGS0 asschers?
They cant be summed up on a simple box on a chart they are far to complicated.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 12/6/2006 11:13:42 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 12/6/2006 8:25:02 PM
Author: Cehrabehra

I remember reading once that what was considered ''ideal'' for a princess was later found to be off.... any chance the numbers AGS comes out with for asschers will only show one ''ideal'' in a pretty darn complex cut and ignore others? I guess that''s true with all cuts, even rounds, but still... curious about this.

I have said many times that I was afraid that might be the case but AGS has since then said that several styles or looks will make the top grade.
I''m very very happy that they have addressed the issue.
Time will tell for sure but im encourage by what they have been saying so far.
See my above comment on multiple good zones.

that is very good news - I''l be curious how they denote different "flavors" of asscher on their certs as well. Or how they will become to known here even.... and I hope that several years down the road this will pave the way for cushions!

 

[strmrdr]

(not going to put a long quote here but this is in replay to Cehrabehra''s post above)

I am hopeing they will start printing aset images on the cert''s themselves this would be a huge value add.
This would be an awesome thing for asscher shoppers and also for princess cut buyers.

One thing that does concern me is that the currect sarin machine stinks on small asschers it works ok on those over 2ct or so but the smallers ones there are issues.
Either AGS needs to use helium for them or have sarin address the issues.
Id much prefere they use helium scanners.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 12/6/2006 11:45:23 PM
Author: strmrdr
(not going to put a long quote here but this is in replay to Cehrabehra''s post above)

I am hopeing they will start printing aset images on the cert''s themselves this would be a huge value add.
This would be an awesome thing for asscher shoppers and also for princess cut buyers.

One thing that does concern me is that the currect sarin machine stinks on small asschers it works ok on those over 2ct or so but the smallers ones there are issues.
Either AGS needs to use helium for them or have sarin address the issues.
Id much prefere they use helium scanners.

I like the idea of putting the aset images on the certs and in the case of cushions I think they should put the helium/sarin scans right on there as well to denote cut type.

 

[kenny]

I''m afraid 99% of buyers have no hope of understanding ASETs, not to mention the mall salespeople.

It may just freak out all of the lowest-common-denominator people and actually hurt sales, like fluorescence.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/7/2006 12:24:06 AM
Author: kenny
I''m afraid 99% of buyers have no hope of understanding ASETs, not to mention the mall salespeople.

It may just freak out all of the lowest-common-denominator people and actually hurt sales, like fluorescence.

cant comment on mall sales people but Wink says its one of the best tools he has found for showing the cut quality to his in store customers.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 12/6/2006 11:22:45 PM
Author: strmrdr
Garry is it fair to say we will never see something like this for AGS0 asschers?
They cant be summed up on a simple box on a chart they are far to complicated.

Storm there is a pretty good match for the rounds between AGS and HCA - this chart.
The image is taken from one of those huge charts for 56% table rounds.

But the charts indicate there could even be other interesting zones for certain flavours of rounds.

So we have even simplified rounds.

The issue as i see it though is that the patterns within ascchers may not be fully accounted for with the research that AGS has done - so we may actually not like AGS 0 asschers since the face up pattern must account for 1/3rd to 2/3rds their desirability.

Let alone the enormous complexity of polishing octaherdal rough with all these additional constraints - especially the polish and symmetry rules.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Here is an old chart that shows some of Beryl''s 1975 work too.

It is of interest because it shows the whole round chart with t tiny bit blown up.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/7/2006 12:40:40 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

The issue as i see it though is that the patterns within ascchers may not be fully accounted for with the research that AGS has done - so we may actually not like AGS 0 asschers since the face up pattern must account for 1/3rd to 2/3rds their desirability.

100% agree with that but so far it looks promising.
I have said before don''t use the b-scope for picking asschers the same thing applies with the ASET.
An all red ASET asscher while bright is going to pretty boring and lose the charm that makes an asscher an asscher.
That said so far im not inclined to say that is what they have done.
When we have actual stones to work with it will tell the story.

It would be nice to have DC files for some of the more promising candidates and see them under the other DC lighting.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 12/6/2006 10:27:56 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

There are so many millions of combinations that poor Paul will pul out all his hair.

Oh no. At best, they will turn as grey as yours, and we will compete with the same weapons for the attention of the girls. And my grey hair will have a specific name: Asscher-grey.

Live long,

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/7/2006 4:00:47 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 12/6/2006 10:27:56 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

There are so many millions of combinations that poor Paul will pul out all his hair.

Oh no. At best, they will turn as grey as yours, and we will compete with the same weapons for the attention of the girls. And my grey hair will have a specific name: Asscher-grey.

Live long,

yea but then he will invent a hair scope to prove his are ideal and sell it for a billion dollars.

 

[starryeyed]

Any ideas about how a kicken "PS TTU" (to coin Kenny''s acronym) asscher would appear on Gemex?

White Light (Brilliance), Colored Light (Fire), Scintillation (Sparkle)? The scale is Low, Medium, High, Very High.

The few I''ve seen, they score Low on White Light, and High on Colored Light and Scintillation. Does it get any better than this?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/8/2006 10:40:13 AM
Author: starryeyed
Any ideas about how a kicken ''PS TTU'' (to coin Kenny''s acronym) asscher would appear on Gemex?

White Light (Brilliance), Colored Light (Fire), Scintillation (Sparkle)? The scale is Low, Medium, High, Very High.

The few I''ve seen, they score Low on White Light, and High on Colored Light and Scintillation. Does it get any better than this?

using the b-scope to pick asschers is a huge mistake and will lead to false conclusions.

 

[starryeyed]

Why?

 

[kenny]

I don't know about Brightscope but GOG uses Megascope on some of their asschers.

Here is a random one I found.
stone

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 12/8/2006 1:51:19 PM
Author: starryeyed
Why?

Garry gave the main answer above, it don''t account for patterns:
He said "The issue as i see it though is that the patterns within ascchers may not be fully accounted for with the research that AGS has done - so we may actually not like AGS 0 asschers since the face up pattern must account for 1/3rd to 2/3rds their desirability."

I put the number at closer to 2/3 and would even go as far as to say 3/4 isn''t out of line.
The b-scope don''t account for patterns.

second reason:
b-scope don''t have an asscher scale they force them into EC group and they don''t fit.

third reason:
pretty much any asscher will get VH in colored light on the b-scope and almost always top it out.
A kicken asscher might get high in white light return and a total dog pattern wise might get VH.
Worse the dog might not be as bright as the kicken one but because of the way the b-scope works score higher in white light because of the location of the contrast patterns in the stone.

forth:
Every report that is created costs the vendor money and the cost is passed on in the price of the diamond.
b-scope don''t help much at all and adds to the price so by not running it they can be sold for a little less.