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Vendors must find PS Asscher Education annoying

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kenny

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Why are there so few good asschers?
And why are they apparently so hard to spot?
Seems that very often asschers get presented here and, uhm, let's just say, not recommended.

I'll bet the vendors, especially the PS ones, get annoyed.
I'm sure they'd love a PS Two-Thumbs-Up, TTU, on every asscher they have selected for their stock.

Seems like with rounds it is easier to stock stones that you know are going to get a PS TTU.
Oddly, I never see a PS vendor come here and challenge the stones of theirs that are not well-reviewed.

Is it that cutters are just not cutting "kicken asschers"?
OR is it that it truly IS a mystery what will get the coveted PS TTU?

And if cutters are not cutting them is that because they'd rather cut for weight retention, as in rounds, or is it something else?
Is it that the multiple crown and pavilion angle possibilities numbering in the millions, as Garry has said, means there is no clearly-defined target to shoot for?

It just seems freaky that there apparently are so many asschers that are not well cut.
I don't get it.

Perhaps Feb 2007 will revolutionize and demystify all this when AGS releases their Square Emerald Cut parameters.
 

DBM

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... what exactly is most often the problem with the asschers you''re talking about? no brilliance? not good symmetry??
 

kenny

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I am not one of the reviewers.

I hope they will answer.
 

Scott Terence

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Date: 12/6/2006 12:00:53 AM
Author:kenny
Oddly, I never see a PS vendor come here and challenge the stones of theirs that are not well-reviewed.
I believe it is not allowed since it would be a form of self-promotion which is forbidden on this board... that would be my best guess as to why they are silent.
 

strmrdr

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Up until recently there wasn't a huge demand for well cut asschers and they didn't bring a premium.
So they were all cut for weight other than a handful of branded stones.
Even today there are only 2 or 3 cutters cutting well cut asschers on a consistent bases.
PS has made the market in a lot of ways, id be willing to bet that there are more well cut asschers sold with PS influence than anything else with the DK brand being in second place, RA third.

And yes a lot of vendors think I'm annoying and more than a few hate my guts.

I'm beat will answer some of the other questions tomorrow.
 

decodelighted

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Asschers are such a niche market. A lot of folks that are attracted to them do a little research and then abandon the search once they realize how *small* they face up compared to the #1 most popular cut: ROUND BRILLIANTS.

And maybe a third of the folks who are left *really* want an authentic antique asscher - which are in VERY high demand. Our local jewelry stone here has only had one and it was sold almost immediately for more than the going rate to someone who''d been searching for one for YEARS. Those stones are NOT ideal AT ALL ... yet PERFECT in so many other ways. Authentic. A symbol of pre-Depression times when stones were cut with a lot of waste ...wantonly. That''s why they stopped cutting them for many years .. Not. Cost. Effective.

Today - it''s just supply & demand. If there''s not a lot of demand, or people will accept non-Strmworthy stones .. no need to search out & sweet-talk the few cutters who are doing Asschers well.

Daniel K & the Royal Asscher folks have done a pretty good job upping the visibility of Asschers in the marketplace ... but, like I said ... a high percentage of folks who get curious - quickly get discouraged. It takes a true & abiding love, a lot of perserverance, a healthy dose of "don''t care what other people think" to take the Asscher plunge.

But then, if it was easy, would it be as fun?
 

strmrdr

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Date: 12/6/2006 12:00:53 AM
Author:kenny
Perhaps Feb 2007 will revolutionize and demystify all this when AGS releases their Square Emerald Cut parameters.
Back couldn''t sleep.
Only if prices rise to that of equal l/w AGS0 princess cuts.
The $ per ct might be less but the cost per area of rough will have to rise to the same level.
They are cut from the same rough.

Which is what really killed the what is seen as the antique asscher cut they were often cut from the whole rough. These days the same rough would be cut in 1/2 then into 2 princess cuts.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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There is one big issue in this discussion.

I have become interested because I have not always agreed that Storm has either the ability, or the right to make some of his judgements and assessments.

Storm you have some knowledge. a lot more than a lot of consumers - maybe more than any consumer.

But a good analogy is to take a small 10% wedge in a pie chart - and call that Storms knowledge - and that wedge sits within a 30% wedge of "all that is known about Asshers - but there is 70% that is not yet known about asschers.

Too often I find the advice given here is based on insufficient data - or is perhaps influenced by belief in a particular vendor or cutter relationship.

As a proud supporter of Pricescope and its consumer advocay role, and part of its educational and learning facilities, I do not like to risk consumers being given advice that may lead to purchases that might be found to not have been the best choice once we know more of the ''not yet known'' about asschers.

Storm you and others are welcome to criticise my round system and various opinions on shallower round diamonds etc. But in doing so I have alsways attempted to maintain an open and declared position.


Here though is an example of the type that some vendors have noted - a little bit off info can sometimes result in a person claiming more expertise than they rightfully have:

Date: 12/6/2006 2:36:34 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 12/6/2006 12:00:53 AM
Author:kenny
Perhaps Feb 2007 will revolutionize and demystify all this when AGS releases their Square Emerald Cut parameters.
Only if prices rise to that of equal l/w AGS0 princess cuts.
The $ per ct might be less but the cost per area of rough will have to rise to the same level.
They are cut from the same rough.

Which is what really killed the what is seen as the antique asscher cut they were often cut from the whole rough. These days the same rough would be cut in 1/2 then into 2 princess cuts.
This is miss-information. Princess cuts have very low crowns and are cut from smaller sawn portions of octahedra with all 4 points sharp, or from perfect octahedra with no broken corners that can be sawn at or very near the middle (rarely do princess cuts have more than 10-13% crown heights).

Infact Asshers are more likley to be cut from makeable (ie not sawn) or sawn stones where the sawn top is very small (and might be a princess or a big table shallow crown angle deep pavilion thin girdle round) and most of the stone is kept for the main ascher - but it is more likley to compete with a round - so this cutter would have far fewer .80-99ct rounds.

So Storm, I hope it is possible for you to understand that you know enough, and have enough interst in this topic, to learn learn learn. and when you give definitive "stromworthy" advice - that it be tempered with some humility - otherwise you will not continue to learn - and i am sure there is one thing we can agree on - learning is where the fun is !
 

strmrdr

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Garry, ask any of the several hundred consumers that I have helped here if they have got an asscher that was a woofer that I recomended they buy.
I havent had one complaint yet.

The rough issue I will address later when Im awake enough to find my sources.
 

Paul-Antwerp

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Date: 12/6/2006 6:02:55 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Here though is an example of the type that some vendors have noted - a little bit off info can sometimes result in a person claiming more expertise than they rightfully have:


Date: 12/6/2006 2:36:34 AM
Author: strmrdr


Date: 12/6/2006 12:00:53 AM
Author:kenny
Perhaps Feb 2007 will revolutionize and demystify all this when AGS releases their Square Emerald Cut parameters.
Only if prices rise to that of equal l/w AGS0 princess cuts.
The $ per ct might be less but the cost per area of rough will have to rise to the same level.
They are cut from the same rough.

Which is what really killed the what is seen as the antique asscher cut they were often cut from the whole rough. These days the same rough would be cut in 1/2 then into 2 princess cuts.
This is miss-information. Princess cuts have very low crowns and are cut from smaller sawn portions of octahedra with all 4 points sharp, or from perfect octahedra with no broken corners that can be sawn at or very near the middle (rarely do princess cuts have more than 10-13% crown heights).

Infact Asshers are more likley to be cut from makeable (ie not sawn) or sawn stones where the sawn top is very small (and might be a princess or a big table shallow crown angle deep pavilion thin girdle round) and most of the stone is kept for the main ascher - but it is more likley to compete with a round - so this cutter would have far fewer .80-99ct rounds.

So Storm, I hope it is possible for you to understand that you know enough, and have enough interst in this topic, to learn learn learn. and when you give definitive ''stromworthy'' advice - that it be tempered with some humility - otherwise you will not continue to learn - and i am sure there is one thing we can agree on - learning is where the fun is !
Just clarifying. I think that Storm''s position here is based upon one post of mine, which described a current situation for our company, and is probably not correct for other companies. On top of that, it was based upon info of that time (earlier this year).

My post was in a thread about a trial-AGS-0-asscher-cut, which was a very shallow stone. My comment was that we also tried to cut a stone to these specs (which AGS had given us as a trial), but that we looked at rough on hand, and that we had to choose between cutting a 1.00 princess or a 0.70 Asscher. Thus, the decision was quickly made.

However, this post of mine was based upon the rough, that we had on hand, that we are used to working with, and upon one single set of proportions.

Live long,
 

Paul-Antwerp

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Date: 12/6/2006 6:31:59 AM
Author: strmrdr
One source for the rough info.. see Paul''s response here on why those shallow designs will not be cut.
There are other threads also....
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/45817/
Oh yes. And there is this post of mine, connected to designs with depths around 50% with a serious crown.

I do not see many rough stones in nature, which would be ideal for such designs. And they are generally sold in parcels, where the total of the parcel is undesirable from a quality-cutter''s perspective.

Live long,
 

strmrdr

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Date: 12/6/2006 6:31:24 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Just clarifying. I think that Storm''s position here is based upon one post of mine, which described a current situation for our company, and is probably not correct for other companies. On top of that, it was based upon info of that time (earlier this year).

My post was in a thread about a trial-AGS-0-asscher-cut, which was a very shallow stone. My comment was that we also tried to cut a stone to these specs (which AGS had given us as a trial), but that we looked at rough on hand, and that we had to choose between cutting a 1.00 princess or a 0.70 Asscher. Thus, the decision was quickly made.

However, this post of mine was based upon the rough, that we had on hand, that we are used to working with, and upon one single set of proportions.

Live long,
Thats not what you said when you shot my designs down.
Frankly im rather upset if there is rough available to cut them because I dropped a very fun and interesting project because you shot it down.
 

strmrdr

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before I hit the hay... Garry said...
"Infact Asshers are more likley to be cut from makeable (ie not sawn) or sawn stones where the sawn top is very small (and might be a princess or a big table shallow crown angle deep pavilion thin girdle round) and most of the stone is kept for the main ascher - but it is more likley to compete with a round - so this cutter would have far fewer .80-99ct rounds."

Which proves my main point even more the prices will have to rise to make cutters cut them.
Competing with rounds makes it even more so.
Not to pick on Paul but he has stated to expect AGS0 prices to be in the same ballpark as AGS0 princess cuts to make them economical to cut.
That was earlier when the AGS asscher info wasn''t available and he may have changed his mind some since.
Right now there is a premium on asschers with the potential to be well considered well cut.
I expect that the AGS0 diamonds will have an even higher premium or they wont be cut.
 

kenny

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When I saw my asscher my initial reaction was, "It looks so small for 2.26, and for what I paid."

Is this a common reaction? (BTW I am not experienced in how well-cut asschers are supposed to face up.)

Might this create market pressure to increase the spread, (to the detriment of cut performance)?
This would explain the rarity of well-cut ones.
Am I guessing right?
 

starryeyed

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Funny, I was wondering the same thing myself Kenny. Many Asschers are virtual, so in order for a vendor to answer any questions about the stone, it must be procured. Then a consumer is going to want to see pictures, the cert, an idealscope image, and an ASET image. From what I learned from Garry, it helps to have a backlit ASET image too. So after all of this work, the consumer might not even buy the asscher, especially since there are so few that are cut as nicely as yours! Even asschers that get rave reviews from a vendor don''t always seem to pass muster.

Personally, I feel kinda guilty making vendors jumpr through so many hoops!
 

indecisive

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Date: 12/6/2006 8:54:36 AM
Author: starryeyed
Funny, I was wondering the same thing myself Kenny. Many Asschers are virtual, so in order for a vendor to answer any questions about the stone, it must be procured. Then a consumer is going to want to see pictures, the cert, an idealscope image, and an ASET image. From what I learned from Garry, it helps to have a backlit ASET image too. So after all of this work, the consumer might not even buy the asscher, especially since there are so few that are cut as nicely as yours! Even asschers that get rave reviews from a vendor don't always seem to pass muster.

Personally, I feel kinda guilty making vendors jumpr through so many hoops!
I don't know about you, but when I was looking for an asscher I paid to have the virtual stones brought in if I decided not to buy them. The asscher search is just so frustrating, especially because we didn't get great service from a popular vendor here. Like Deco said, you really have to love the asscher to put up with all it takes to get one and not just get an ideal round(which I thought about doing a couple of times). They are so worth it though and I am so glad I have my asscher... and I look at it way too much!!
 

starryeyed

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That''s interesting Indecisive. That''s a heck of a thing for a consumer though - to have to pay to look at diamonds. I could easily see why a vendor would want to charge, but I would think it''s part of building a relationship and "the cost of doing business". Maybe asschers are where a trip to the Diamond District makes sense!
 

starryeyed

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I just checked out your GORGEOUS ring, Indecisive. For all of the curious viewers looking for hand shots, here''s the link.

OrtbergdiaASC.jpg
 

Paul-Antwerp

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Date: 12/6/2006 7:32:26 AM
Author: strmrdr
Not to pick on Paul but he has stated to expect AGS0 prices to be in the same ballpark as AGS0 princess cuts to make them economical to cut.
That was earlier when the AGS asscher info wasn''t available and he may have changed his mind some since.
Right now there is a premium on asschers with the potential to be well considered well cut.
I expect that the AGS0 diamonds will have an even higher premium or they wont be cut.
Hey Storm,

You are not picking on me at all. And I stand by my prediction.

There will definitely be a technical premium, because of the extra loss of weight and the extra detail to symmetry and polish (because of the market wanting a full AGS-0 preferably).
There will be another technical premium, because we need to maximise the value of the rough. As long as a cutter can make from the same rough stone a round or a princess with minimum the same weight, the Asscher will not be produced.
Finally, there is a commercial premium, because rounds definitely and princess-cuts probably will sell faster than the same value Asscher.

Live long,
 

strmrdr

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Date: 12/6/2006 8:54:36 AM
Author: starryeyed
Funny, I was wondering the same thing myself Kenny. Many Asschers are virtual, so in order for a vendor to answer any questions about the stone, it must be procured. Then a consumer is going to want to see pictures, the cert, an idealscope image, and an ASET image. From what I learned from Garry, it helps to have a backlit ASET image too. So after all of this work, the consumer might not even buy the asscher, especially since there are so few that are cut as nicely as yours! Even asschers that get rave reviews from a vendor don't always seem to pass muster.

Personally, I feel kinda guilty making vendors jumpr through so many hoops!
They are used to it and they make money so they are happy in the end.
GOG has been doing enough volume that they have a good relationship with the top cutters that they can get a pretty good idea if its going to be a good one before its called in.
So its easier than it once was, when it was first picking up it wasnt unusual 2/3 of them called in to be rejected.
Since then they have learned what cutters to use and the cutters have learned what they are loooking for. The cutters dont want to waste time and money shipping stones either so they work with the vendors.
Sometimes I get accused of being too GOG but when it comes to asschers they have done the homework to make it a growing part of their business supplying kicken asschers other vendors havent wanted to mess with doing so because it isnt what they want to do.

With the AGS cut grade that should get easier after a time but the prices will rise also so that is kinda a catch 22.
I would be perfectly happy for a steady source of consistant awesome asschers to be available from multiple vendors and cutters and all the hassles go away.
Then Garry will have to find something else to pick on me about :}

I look forward to that day but also think if it happens its atleast 18 months out from now.
Paul will no doubt hit the market before that and open some more options, I'm looking forward to that also.
With his track record they should be awesome and the cream of the crop.
 

kenny

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Strm wrote, "With the AGS cut grade that should get easier after a time but the prices will rise. . ."
That's another reason I jumped now.

How much extra does an AGS 0 cut grade add to the price of a princess now?

10%?
20%?
30%?

Does anyone know what the AGS 0 premium has worked out to be for the Princess?
Or is it to soon to say what the market will bear?
 

strmrdr

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Date: 12/6/2006 12:29:32 PM
Author: kenny
Strm wrote, ''With the AGS cut grade that should get easier after a time but the prices will rise. . .''
That''s another reason I jumped now.

How much extra does an AGS 0 cut grade add to the price of a princess now?

10%?
20%?
30%?

Does anyone know what the AGS 0 premium has worked out to be for the Princess?
Or is it to soon to say what the market will bear?
well cut is about a 15% premium now
RA is about 40% over that.
Im guessing that the AGS0 will come in somewhere between that.
They will start out with a higher premium then settle down a bit in a couple years is my guess.
 

Regular Guy

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Date: 12/6/2006 12:50:42 PM
Author: strmrdr

RA is about 40% over that.
RA??
 

kenny

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Strm, I'm asking about the Princess.

I think you are answering about the Asscher.

But are you saying the Royal Asscher goes for about 40% higher than a generic asscher, and a well-cut generic asscher goes for about 15% over others?
 

strmrdr

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Date: 12/6/2006 12:29:32 PM
Author: kenny
Does anyone know what the AGS 0 premium has worked out to be for the Princess?
Or is it to soon to say what the market will bear?
Paul can answer that better than I can but its not as easy as it sounds.
The true premium is not based on 1ct finished vs 1ct finished but on the sale price of both if cut from the same rough.
That is different than the apparant premium which is 1ct vs 1ct on the retail level.
I expect the true premium is a lot lower.
 

strmrdr

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Date: 12/6/2006 12:54:09 PM
Author: kenny
Strm, I'm asking about the Princess.

I think you are answering about the Asscher.

But are you saying the Royal Asscher goes for about 40% higher than a generic asscher, and a well-cut generic asscher goes for about 15% over others?
Yes and sorta....
Based on a $100 baseline....
very bad cut $80
so-so cut $100
well cut generic $115
RA $155

RA = Royal Asscher.
 

kenny

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I think we all really care about retail.

How much more will I have to pay for a pricness the AGS 0 cut grade at retail over a similar one with a GIA report?
 

Paul-Antwerp

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Date: 12/6/2006 1:00:24 PM
Author: kenny
I think we all really care about retail.

How much more will I have to pay for a pricness the AGS 0 cut grade at retail over a similar one with a GIA report?
Frankly, there are no similar ones with a GIA report.

On the other hand, this is such a frank statement, that it is probably incorrect. But it is definitely a huge challenge to find one.

Live long,
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 12/6/2006 8:02:06 AM
Author: kenny
When I saw my asscher my initial reaction was, ''It looks so small for 2.26, and for what I paid.''

Is this a common reaction? (BTW I am not experienced in how well-cut asschers are supposed to face up.)

Might this create market pressure to increase the spread, (to the detriment of cut performance)?
This would explain the rarity of well-cut ones.
Am I guessing right?
just as an aside, I find this thread very intresting because there are so many parallels with asscher issues and cushion issues, at least from my perspective, particularly when looking for nice fat crowns that really are not generally cost effective.
 
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